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Taming Checkpoints in the skill training

Discussion in 'UO Tamer' started by Pinco, Oct 19, 2008.

  1. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    I found some checkpoint that when reached change the maximum daily gain...
    unfortunately I start to write down this checkpoints only from 90.0 to 110, but I hope they will be usefull for who is in training :)

    90.0 - 101.0 max daily gain: 3.0
    101.0 - 107.7 max daily gain: 1.5
    107.7 - 114 (around 114) max daily gain 0.7 - 1.0
    114 (around 114) - 120 max daily gain 0.2 - 0.3 (I had not tested directly this part, but some friends has tell me thats values)

    I collect this data while taming about all day (yes I'm crazy XD) about 20 hours per day at high taming speed.
     
  2. kitiara-atlantic

    kitiara-atlantic Lore Master
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    I'm definitely interested to see your results. I'm at 109.5, and while I don't tame all day, I've had several instances lately where I tame for 3-4 hours straight and get no gains. I've essentially given up, except for getting my GGS gain every couple days.

    Someone brought this up at the Town Hall meeting in Chicago yesterday, though they were at 117. Leurocian said that he had encountered a similar problem in a different skill whereby the code that checks to see if you got a skill gain was programmed incorrectly so that when you reached a high level like 117, there wasn't a single spell in the game that you could cast that was of enough difficulty to allow a skill gain.

    He thought maybe the same mistake could exist in taming, where there is a bug in the code so that no pet exists that is difficult enough to trigger a skill gain (other than your GGS gain) at the highest levels. He said he would look into it.
     
  3. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Yeah well for tamers he is wrong.

    I spent plenty of time taming Drakes at a peer level (at the level required to tame) and never saw a skill up.

    I did the same thing for Dragons and same results no skill ups.

    So this perception that Taming is Difficulty based is ... well very odd indeed as I was taming mobs with a tame skill equal to or slightly (as in less than 1 full point) of the mob and never received a skill up across hundreds of mobs per level.
     
  4. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    EDIT: is 0.7, thanks to my friends for help :)

    I found more people that help me and I collect more data, top post updated!

    Statistics:
    beast tamed per day: 1000-1200 (depends on the number of fails and success during the day)
    hours per day: 20-22 hours per day

    IMPORTANT!!!
    The gains are completely random, you can get no gains for 10 hours and get 0.6 in an half hour, but I'd never get more than I wrote in the top table.
     
  5. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Here's a question...when you are gathering those figures are you only taming creatures that are optimal for you current skill?
     
  6. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    good question, I'm usign Unicorns (95.1 min skill) with a skill boosted to 120 with jewels. The skillcap is over 700 so the GGS is over 38 hours...
     
  7. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    ok, the daily data from 107.7 to 114 are right now.
    but you don't think that with the siege rot sistem will be more easy? :mf_prop:
     
  8. kitiara-atlantic

    kitiara-atlantic Lore Master
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    Wow, if the most gains I can get is .2 or .3 in 22 hours of taming at the high levels, I'll save my 22 hours and take the 30 seconds to get my GGS gain instead!

    It seems awfully slow compared to other skills.
     
  9. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    is not comparable to other skills... for magery you can cast rapidly (like 1 spell every 3 second) so you have better gains... for taming you can tame a pet in 10 second and then you must kick it (moonglow zoo or kill) and you need about 20-30 seconds for that = 40 - 60 seconds per try... thats the real problem :(
     
  10. kitiara-atlantic

    kitiara-atlantic Lore Master
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    that's an excellent point. Maybe the balance needs to occur in terms of balancing the number of attempts possible per hour with the rate of gain. Like, let's say spell casting skills offer 20 attempts per minute = 1200 attempts per hour, for a potential .1 gain (I have no idea if .1 is accurate - just a random number for illustration purposes). Maybe taming's formula needs to be adjusted to rival that .1 per hour gain (or whatever the typical ratio would be on attempts:gains). If taming affords 60 attempts per hour, but it has the same gain ratio, it would take 200 hours to reach that same .1 gain!

    And really, that's pretty much how it feels :-/
     
  11. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    for make 1200 tries with taming you need 20 hours, the gain rate must be raised a lot for balance this...

    and think that someone speak about the GD nerf... very few ppl understand the hard work of training taming :(
     
  12. Hinotori

    Hinotori Seasoned Veteran
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    I gave up on my tamer I'm currently taking to Legendary. It actually moved on the first one I did way back when. I tamed unicorns and went from 115 to 120 in about a week. I can't get the gains with this tamer no matter how many hours I spend at the unicorns. So I stripped her down to nothing but the taming and bought the 40 magery so I can speed up GGS. I've been getting .1 every 14 hours about. 117.7 currently. Bleh.

    I can't control them so I mount them and recall to my house to release them into the swamp. I found out that mounting a critter for a few moments will put it on follow. That is a weird change.
     
  13. Chaosy

    Chaosy Guest

    It's not the misunderstanding of how hard training taming is... it's that everyone understands how easy it is to slap on a few jewels and be a legendary tamer in skill.
     
  14. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    good point... they must add a pet "jewel immune" that can be controlled only with real skill :p
     
  15. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    I'm not sure about control, but I do believe that bonding and stable slots should only happen from real skill values.

    It would kill me as a tamer, but I haven't put any real effort into training anyway. It was far too easy to buy an advanced character token, slap on some jewels and have my arsenal within a week.
     
  16. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    yes, but I speak about 1 new pet, strong and "jewel immune"... in that manner both kind of characters can survive ;)
     
  17. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I'd say make all pets ignore jewels, but that's just me.

    Taming isn't hard as such, just time consuming. I wouldn't object to reducing the time it takes to make a tame attempt so we get more tames per hour, but I'd also like to see a method where we could get slightly faster gains again by taming aggressive critters. Then players can train faster, but they'll need something harder than a ridgeback to hit 120 that way. I think that's fairer than expecting a full 120 taming char in a couple of days. For that kinda speed, I'd hope you'd been taming nothing but greater dragons 24/7 :D

    Though if we're making tamers gain faster by taming aggressives, for fairness I think peace shouldn't allow those gains to come full speed. Otherwise everyone will slap on peace to train a tamer and the risk goes out the window.

    Just a few thoughts :)

    Wenchy
     
  18. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    To the contrary, it is absolutely the difficulty in raising the Taming (YES PLURAL) skills, that drives people to use the jewelry.

    Focus on Taming and ignore an equally hard Taming skill, Veterinary, but I am 100% confident the PRO lets kill all jewelry, for tamers only, group of tamers will find some way to make veterinary being legendary mandatory, to be able to have any pet, except of course the 29.5 Ridables.

    Ok, so some one gets jealous that they can not get good + Taming jewelry and decided to throw a temper tantrum and decide to get rid of all taming related jewelry mods, leave the rest in place, until another temper tantrum comes along.

    But were is the case that removing the Tameing + Jewelry, exclusively, makes UO a better place for all players. You know, as in, the worthless PvM players. Because it is common knowledge that the PvP tamers do not want any tamers in PvP (yes that does sound dumb until you think about it as in GET RID OF GREATER DRAGONS FOR EVER AND ALL TAMERS).

    And after the Taming Jewelry is gone, the move will be to make the GGS on taming skills this

    GGS rest time = (taming/lore/veterinary skill-100.0)* 1 week per .1 increment.

    After all making a tamer is just a function of buying the advanced character token, that every one in UO does when they make a tamer, and well that just makes being a tamer way to cheap and easy.

    Tamers need to earn the right to exist.

    Two years to legendary ((24*7*52)*2) sounds about right.

    And even that may be far to easy.

    We need to nerf the tamers to keep them from being nerf'd, is the battle cry I do believe being made by some.

    But hey, adaptation is easy. Take the +29 Taming jewelry off and replace it with +35 jewelry in other used skills. Then One can simply raise the +29 taming to be legendary. Even if it does take 2 years. Why then they have earned the right to be a tamer.
     
  19. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Taming isn't "difficult". Walk up to bull, hit tame macro, repeat a few times and you've got your gain. It takes time, but it's not difficult. You know the top reason folks say to me they're not training? "Because I don't have to". They're not even looking at a bull, nevermind taming it. I'm sure some haven't even tried to see how "hard" it is, otherwise they'd be trained by now and wouldn't need the items.

    But of course, if you can rely on items for skill points, you can have real skills trained in something else. One very good reason to twink and not train by the looks of it. Item users aren't as powerful as real skill tamers, they can actually be more powerful. No wonder folks like their items and don't want them removed ;)

    What nonsense! The most anyone has suggested is having enough vet and lore to res' before a pet can bond. Not to tame or own, but to bond. Y'know, uphold your side of the bargain in taking care of the pet should it die? But the tamer would be able to own and control pets if they wanted to in the meantime. That's a wee bit different from the 120 you're complaining about, isn't it?

    Though if a tamer used items and a second account/friend to res' their pets so they could do away with vet too, they'd have a nice stack of power to play with, especially adding skill items on top. Yeah, ok, I see where you're firing from here. Let's keep up the status quo, because there's no room for abuse with these items at all. Certainly not if vet is optional too.

    Oh so that's why we want rid of jewellery? Because we can't get any? LMAO. I have more than enough of the crap stored away, I have problems selling it, not finding it :D

    Ok, you use jewellery and items heavily, you want to continue to do so. You can't just agree to differ with the opinions of others, or even give consideration to the arguments against these items, instead it's necessary to add all the drama? There are days I read your posts Enigma and wonder if it's possible to be more over-dramatic. This is one of those days...

    Try reading the posts above, some of us want it to be faster to gain than it is now, not slower. Again, less drama please.

    Or, you could just train now... If you spent as much time training as you do getting angry at folks like me who think you should, you'd be at 120 already. There's no need to blow a fuse on the drama-meter because you want to keep using items. If you're still training with those items on, the chances are you'll be 120 before anything changes. Train and there's no problem if those items are changed later on. End of story.

    Wenchy
     
  20. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Hum, since when did you, presumably a tamer, rely on what others tell you about taming?

    The very first paragraph sets it up doesn't it.

    I mean yes, we all go out and simply buy an advanced character token, then go do:

    Tame Bulls to 120.0

    Lore Bulls to 120.0

    Vet Bulls to 120.0

    I mean that is what you say every tamer does.

    When the last time you raised a tamer to 120/120/120 on bulls was?

    Actually, you will find very fast, you wont raise squat using your method, except via GGS.

    And perhaps you can give substance to the ambiguous, subject term/construct, "A Tamer should be hard to make", I think that is your sentiment isn't it?

    I think that being required to raise the skills on Bulls will certainly make that EXTREMELY hard, as in a person wont live long enough to hit 120/120/120.

    Do you not think your claim of what people tell you about tamers, is contradictory to the subject and information in this thread?

    And yes, thank you for confirming that you have crap jewelry and nothing of value. :popcorn:

    And it would seem that if anyone was angry it is you, all I did was to rebut the .... well supposition that EA/M should remove all Taming Jewelry (that is your desire unless you have ... changed it) and leave all the rest. Forfeiting 5+ years of development resources, spend another 5+ years putting something else in place, to get us to the exact same spot we are in now, such that some person then can say, I have crap stuff and cant get it, I am bored so lets make things different so I do not need to.
     
  21. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Did I say that? No. I was merely saying that it's not hard to walk up to a passive creature (I used bulls as an example), and taming it. You do not have to do anything difficult to train to 120 taming, lore or vet. It's a simple case of repeating the correct actions on appropriate creatures for taming, vetting pets for vet and lore goes up very nicely as a passive skill.

    Actually, if you stopped making up crazy talk and then replying to it, you'd find that I gave an example, rather than a guide to training taming to 120. Find a single post of mine where I suggest to another tamer that they should use bulls to hit 120. You'll find I don't. I figure that as I do actually have a 120 tamer, I must have figured out how it was done in the process. I suppose I must have dreamt it...

    I believe in training skills to achieve a powerful template not buying them. Simple enough for you?

    You really should stop replying to your own made up quotes, it's not exactly constructive discussion, is it? Just as well some folks try to reply to what people actually say or we'd be talking about football, not taming.

    I stand by what I said. Taming is slow, not hard, and the lack of compulsion to train for any perks is a real factor in player motivation to train.

    Yeah, I'm just jealous of your items... LMAO. You honestly haven't the foggiest what I've got stashed away, but thanks for the laugh.

    I love how you can make up so much fiction, get so hot under the collar then avoid any meaningful discussion in the process, by pretending that someone else is annoyed and jealous of your l337 arties. *pats you on head* If that's what you want to believe, you just keep writing that story of yours. Feel free to join in the discussion the rest of us are having, whenever you're ready.

    And for what's surely approaching the 50th time, I want all skill items gone, not just taming ones.

    Wenchy
     
  22. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Actually yes you did say that Bulls get you were you want to go, the fact that you did not say what you may have meant is just that, may have meant. Who knows what you really think.

    You equate Slow to something, but I suspect that more than one individual will say that Slow = Hard = Not worth doing.

    Slow, means that yeah One can be burned out in the monumental effort it takes to become legendary on your Bulls. Even when one can buy ones way up to the HARD to get level of 85, like you and every one else does, except me, according to your rationalization of why taming must be made monumentally harder, than it already is, so there can be REAL tamers.

    So why is it, that your not saying that Advanced Character Tokens should be removed from the game. I mean I am clearly the only person in UO that does not use them according to you, so there for am I far more qualified to call my self a tamer than the ones that bought their way up?

    This entire concept that HARD makes you REAL is most certainly a personal equation.

    It is heartening to see you now include every one, apparently, in that desire to remove Jewelry and all the mods. That isn't what you said exactly, but if not then your still protecting some mods being left in the game.
     
  23. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I really thought you'd understand when someone gave an example critter in a sentence by now. Oh well.

    Yes, I just said that... some people think slow is hard, but it's still slow. Hard would be having to tame aggressive critters all the way, for example. The fact that a player can setup a script to train taming then leave it unattended for hours, would suggest that it's both straightforward and low risk.

    Training = monumentally harder because you have to train? LOL. I'm about to delete a tamer and start training again from zero, and re-training another char from zero at the same time. That must make me some kind of genius or something. Nah, it doesn't. I just tame what needs to be tamed and get on with it.

    I don't agree with advanced chars either, never did. Why would I like one way of buying skill and not another?

    I have always said I don't like skill + items for any class. Not one of my characters relies on said items and never will for that very reason.

    Wenchy
     
  24. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Good so now we agree that you did assert that one can reach legendary Lore, Taming and Veterinary on Bulls, which is true, if you can live long enough.

    A) You apparently do not tame aggressive Mob's, for skill gain. If you had, Dragons, Drakes, White Wyrms, Nightmares etc you would know you DO NOT GET GAINS there. Yes you can get a GGS but no other gains. This is even when taming them at required to tame +5 skill level. Yes you do get to spend a lot of insurance money because they kill you a lot.

    B) You are a scriptor. No wonder you have such contempt for Tamers.

    No Monumentally hard as in you dont get gains except as dictated by the GGS.

    Yes as in the previous quote, you place no value on tamers because you script your tamers. If is interesting, that now you sing the song that every one, but you, uses advanced character tokens.

    Funny, else where your said that everyone uses advanced character tokens to make a tamer in 2 days at legendary skill levels for lore, taming and veterinary. Is this another case of you not saying what you meant? The last time I checked everyone is a rather inclusive word. But regardless good for you that you script from 0 to Legendary and deride/criticize those that use Advanced Character Tokens and the HARD way of running around, taming, loring etc.

    And yet you have all these crappy jewelry that you assured me was superior to mine and all these jewelry that you try to vendor and no one buys.

    So you don't like jewelry, you advocate that it should be removed from the game, thus imposing your view point on others.

    Yet you collect it and sell it. AND NO ONE BUYS IT.

    I would have thought a principled person would have destroyed it. :popcorn:

    In the end, it is clear you do not like UO's Tamers. You want them to be significantly nerfed. That you hold UO's Tamers in contempt and view their play style as trivial if not cheating.

    I on the other hand make no judgment about UO's Tamers. They are what they are and if they are having fun then great what else could EA/Mythic ask for?

    Did I enjoy Tamers more, the way it was, Trammel + 8 Months? Most certainly.

    Would I like to see a reversion to that time MINUS ALL THE EXPLOITS AND BUGS? Most certainly.

    Is it going to happen? Oh Hades no and I would kick EA/M in the shins if they did. What a waste of spent resources to get us here, were people are having fun. Then expend even more resources to get us back to were we are now, with no significant change. Except a lot of EA/M resources being spent to undo then redo things, just because people ......
     
  25. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Look up “example” in the dictionary. Then try and reply to what people actually post rather than what you make up.

    Actually, you'll find there are aggressive mobs that give gains. Dire wolves for one. If you tame all the dires around the large ridgeback spawn, not only can you gain on them, but once released they stop eating your backside all the time. I did it regularly and still do when I'm taming there. There are other aggressives besides dragonkin and nightmares – hell cats and dogs and lava lizards being a couple of examples. Maybe you should look over the list of tameable creatures before claiming that aggressive pets won't get you a gain.

    And again, if you'd read my posts you'd see that I want the normal taming gains to be accelerated...

    Oh, now I'm a scripter eh? Your best “argument” is to accuse another player of scripting. Cute.

    Try reading my posts again.

    Me not saying what I mean? Nah, just another example of you reading what you want from someone's post, rather than trying to grasp their intended meaning. I'm done compensating for a teacher who apparently didn't do well at teaching you English comprehension.

    Overpowered items only get changed when it's seen that they're too powerful. That means in the hands of players, not a trash barrel. I'm quite happy to hand overpowered stuff to the masses if they run riot with it. Same with selling pets to players who can't control them. The best way to get a problem fixed is to make it more obvious to the devs.

    In what way is having to train a profession a nerf? I haven't heard a spellweaver complain that they're nerfed because they can't twink. You'll have just as much power as you had before, you just need to train to get it. Before jewellery, plenty of tamers managed to train so we could tame our own pets, it didn't harm any of us.

    Other than accusing me of scripting and branding all sorts of derogatory names onto those who disagree with you...Yep, you don't judge other tamers at all.

    Wenchy
     
  26. Imyaidu

    Imyaidu Guest

    To get the thread back on track I've been taming bulls and am currently at 96.9 taming. As far as +3.0 a day quoted in the thread parent (for my skill level) I've been lucky to get +0.5 per day. Should I give up on bulls and move to something like Gaman?
     
  27. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I wouldn't work with bulls or gaman, you want a high spawn area with a good turnover of critters so you can get plenty of tames in each hour you train. It's important to tame the right level of animal but also to have enough to work with so you're not wasting time looking for a fresh spawn.

    Great harts will give you gains up to around 105, basically up to when you'd move on to ridgebacks. You have 2 great spots for these - Healers Grove in Ilshenar has healer NPCs that you can set the tamed harts onto to kill them and there's a good spawn. The other spot is Barrier Isle at Trinsic. There are NPC brigand spawns there, which is why I prefer Healers Grove, but you have plenty of harts and some bulls so there's a stack to tame there.

    Wenchy
     
  28. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Yes bring a Killer pet and go do the Ridgbacks at the Ridgeback Ponds.

    You can try the Unicorns, if your female or Kirins if your male. They would just be under your stated skill and may provide some skill ups, if Draconni( was it him) that said Taming is Difficulty based, which I think is ... well not the way it works.
     
  29. miss_samara

    miss_samara Guest

    I'm trying to get my natural taming up. I have a very low boredom tolerance, though. I log in, get my .1, then put on my jewls and go hunt. I don't have the patience to tame all day for a .3 gain. And I'm pretty convinced that anyone who does is a masochist. It's worse than what I do for a living, and I actually get *paid* to do that.

    I don't think it should be made simple, but I think more ppl would put effort into getting their real taming up if it weren't so soul numbingly boring.
     
  30. FishinFool

    FishinFool Guest

    I've been stuck @ 102.6 for nearly 2 years. No GGS, no nothing. Taming everything in the book at and over 50% success rate.
     
  31. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
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    I've done from 90 to 110 in 2 week, just take all day :D
     
  32. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    If you're blocked, try letting one of your stats go up by a point while you tame something. I've no idea why this works, but it's sorted out a good few blocks on my tamers over the years.

    If you have a soulstone free, you could also try soustoning a skill off and taming again, then see if you get gains going. I'd try great harts as well as ridgebacks, or throw on as much jewellery as you can and work the cu sidhe or unicorn/kirin spawns to see if that works.

    If that fails and you've triple-checked that you have skill points available, then you may need a GM to look at your character. 2 years is certainly way too long for a gain!

    Wenchy
     
  33. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    I will kind of make a dumb statement, In the bad old days, dieing cleared the sinuses and what ales ya.

    You shouldn't be stuck, you should get a GGS.

    You may want to report it.
     
  34. FishinFool

    FishinFool Guest

    I'm just waiting for the patch. Somewhere in the patch notes it says something with taming not checking properly. If I still don't gain after that I'll try fiddling around with it a bit more.

    I'm scrolled to 115 but frankly, with jewelry the way it was it wasn't too much of an issue.. but since they're obviously going to do *something* I want to get back to work.

    Besides, it's always nice not having to wear that jewelry and use the slot for something else.

    I had started doing the community collection at one point as an encouragement to keep going, but turning in 30k points of ki-rin and drakes and still no gains I lost interest.
     
  35. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    I wouldn't worry to much about jewelry changes. Often times it is best to say things like, That needs to be looked into, to allow things to move on to more important things.

    I would be curious as to what you find after the patch.
     
  36. Tramposo

    Tramposo Guest

    Hi , um I haven't played UO in amost 6 years or so , but I wanted to give my opinion so plz don't flood me.

    Wouldn't be easy if someone took jewerly that changes the skill from 100 to 30 or 40 , if ist 0 its better , and with that jewerly you can start as a starter and gain until reaches the amount of skill points that a player wants?.
     
  37. Pfloyd

    Pfloyd Colorblind Collector
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    as far as i know there isn't any negative skill taming item. there is a skill that will do it but then there isnt anything in that area that you could work taming up on :)