1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice
  3. Greetings Guest! Tonights Maintenance is complete and the Stratics Community Wiki is now live. Please see this thread for more details.
    Dismiss Notice

Taxation Without Representation!

Discussion in 'UO Catskills' started by E.G.Meridius [PGoH], Jan 24, 2009.

  1. There have been many statements recently regarding the Guardians' purported sovereignty over Trinsic.

    For the sake of clarity on all sides, could you please provide reference materials that demonstrate the extent of this decree?

    This should probably include renderings of the city deed that is said to exist, renderings and logs from the ceremony where it was presented, and any other legal documentation that would be relevant to the case.

    I believe the provision of these materials would be a good first step towards resolving this dispute.

    -Solomon Wright, Sosarian Monk
  2. Vallend

    Vallend Sage
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Feb 16, 2005
    Likes Received:
  3. Thom

    Thom Lore Keeper
    Governor Stratics Veteran

    May 30, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Thank you for digging that up Vallend.
  4. This is an excellent find, Vallend.

    I think it is safe to say this serves as conclusive evidence regarding the Guardian's claim on Trinsic.

    There is nothing in this historical record that indicates Trinsic is independent, or that it rests under the sovereignty of the Guardians. Rather, it recognizes the Guardian as "Protectors" of the city, and names a section of town in their honor.

    Unless Borg disputes this biographical account, I suspect the idea of the Guardians' relationship to Trinsic has become exaggerated over time. Without further evidence, I regret I see no reason to believe otherwise.

    I await further evidence.

    -Solomon Wright, Sosarian Monk
  5. Exaggerated over time eh?

    Lord British declared the Purple Guardians of HONOR protectors of Trinsic out of recognition for our dedicated service to the realm. This declaration was indeed an Honor to our Empire, and since then we have fulfilled that role with laudable aplomb.

    There have been many organizations over the years that have called Trinsic home. The Paladins of Trinsic, the Citizens of Trinsic...did PGoH ever oust them from the city and demand they never return? Of course not. As a matter of fact many of those brave men and women fought side by side with us during the various turmoil Trinsic has experienced over the years. The Orc invasions, the Undead Occupation, even the invasion by Minax's forces under the command of Juo'nar (Which, despite what some may wish to believe we were centrally involved in) were ousted by PGoH and the guilds of yesteryear we have come to call friends and allies.

    There are those that seem to believe that the Empire has claimed some right over Trinsic and we wish to control it for some personal or financial gain. This is not, nor will it ever be our intention.

    Lord British declared the Purple Guardians of HONOR protectors of Trinsic. A man whose rise to the throne is suspect at best, now threatens the very ideals and principles in which guided Lord British to grant us such a gracious and humbling title.

    It is by that virtue we staked our claim to Trinsic, protecting its citizens and merchants from whatever force threatens them this day...whether it be from military intervention or economic opression.

    Know that the Empire of the Purple Guardians of HONOR will always exist to uphold the promise made to the true Lord of Britannia and that no matter the circumstances nor the tides of public opinion, we shall stand in the face of whatever evil threatens our beloved City.


    Emeritus Gregory Meridius
    Ancient, Purple Guardians of HONOR
  6. Your organization being proclaimed protectors of a city is very different from that city being placed under your independent sovereignty. Would you agree?

    It is clear you have taken on Trinsic as a responsibility, but a claim that it rests outside of the rule of the King of Britannia is not supported by the historical account detailed in Borg's biography. Do you really dispute this?

    If you want to debate Casca's legitimacy, that is an understandable and valid line of debate, and one that I support whole-heartedly. However, that is very different from claiming Trinsic is an independent city-state under the governance of the Guardians.

    For clarity's sake, I would like to say I have the utmost respect for the Purple Guardians of Honor, what they've accomplished and the values they represent. But I must follow the virtue of Honesty, and ask for you to consider Humility in this matter, so that proper Justice might be executed.

    -Solomon Wright, Sosarian Monk
  7. AnneNomilly

    AnneNomilly Seasoned Veteran
    Professional Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    May 17, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Solomon, no disrespect intended to your views, but I think we are missing the bigger issue here. Regardless of the PGoH's ability to substantiate their claim, quite possibly being due to the deed being locked in a dusty vault, it is an accepted part of our Shard's history and, apparently, Lord Casca himself believes it to be valid.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere have I seen him challenge the legitimacy of the PGoH's claim. Instead, he has stated:

    I believe that's a pretty clear statement that he, himself, believes that some cities were, in fact, declared protectorates or independant by Lord British and he simply does not care. This tells me that he does not choose to challenge the validity of the claim but, quite simply, to abolish it.

    Further, and again, I quote from his own published words:

    This was said immediately following his statement as to the independence of the cities. So, is he now also saying that, in addition to revoking what he clearly believes is their independence, he is also trying to collect back taxes for the years they've been granted this?

    There is much more in his statements that I feel we, as a community, should be concerned about. However, these two seem to deal directly with the issue being discussed here and I, for one, am greatly concerned by these two in particular.

    I am not a member of PGoH and I have no real stake in their claims other than as a member of the community. If Casca can abolish long held claims based on his say-so, claims that he, himself, seems to believe are valid, then what is next?
  8. Anne,

    Thank you for your contribution to the debate.

    I see no record of this being an accepted part of the shard's history. Can you point me to documentation that substantiates this assertion?

    Casca did not acknowledge the Purple Guardian's claim in any way; his comment could have been in reference to any township that acted independently of the Royal Court. This, from a friend who walks the shards, as heard on Baja during Casca's first speech:

    "From this day onwards I declare that all kingdom estates that have propped up within the boundaries of Britannia will dissolve. The leaders of these kingdoms will declare fealty to the throne."

    You'll find comparable passages paraphrased by all the versions of Casca that have risen on the shattered pieces of the Gem of Immortality.

    What this means is that a disputed claim to Trinsic, which thus far has not been demonstrated as legitimate, is the least of the Guardians' worries. Comparing the various versions of the speech that have come to pass, it appears Casca's intention is to bar any independent townships that do not answer directly to the throne.

    This means the real threat is to Olympus and their Emperor; the disputed relationship to Trinsic, obscured by the sands of time, is quite secondary.

    Regarding Trinsic, forming a democratic body and confirming or denying the Guardians' claim through referendum is the most effective way to end the debate. Personally, I have no problem putting the city in their hands, if it is the expressed will of the people.

    Regarding the removal of independence from townships and cities built by citizens across the lands during the anarchy that has followed Lord British's departure...that is a discussion I will now open in a new thread.

    -Solomon Wright, Sosarian Monk