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Taxes for homes [Classic Server]

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Derium of ls, Apr 8, 2010.

?

Classic Shard Home Tax

  1. Yes

    7 vote(s)
    13.2%
  2. No

    46 vote(s)
    86.8%
  1. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    UO is lacking in Gold sinks big time. I know that so much damage has been done due to dupes and how long we have gone without Gold Sinks. But what about this idea for the possible Classic Shard...

    Each home would have a certain tax rate onto it, say monthly. If taxes are not paid then the house will start to decay at a increased rate. The tax rate would be based off the size of the home.

    each home can have a Donation Chest where if it's a Guild House then guild members may drop checks into it that will be applied to the Tax. Homes may be prepaid up to a certain amount of time.

    If the house is demolished or traded the gold held for the tax payments would simply vanish.

    this idea comes based off lord of the rings online, you pay a weekly rate and guild members may make payments to the house. once there is no more money you lose ownership of the home.

    If a classic server does take off, one of the major things I miss is when 1mil gold could take you a long way, but now people have vendors in their homes just to hold the billions of gold they have, and sales of castles ect REQUIRE some sort of broker due to the 125item limit.

    Thoughts? Ideas? Flame me?
     
  2. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    You can do this all you want with the piblic trash barrels/chests.

    I hated the idea 10+ years ago and still do even for a "classic shard" especially considering that it was NEVER a part of UO in the first place and therefore would not be true to the "classic" vision of the game in any way shape manner or form.
     
  3. OxAO

    OxAO Guest

    This is not much different the house refreshing which required people to play. This only drives people away after their house falls when they take a brake for a little while.

    What I would like to see is when a house does decay nothing is left.
    When someone leaves the game it should be up to that person if he wants to give his stuff away.
     
  4. Trevelyan

    Trevelyan Guest

    If there is a classic shard, there would be no need for a gold sink. There would be no gold!

    Biggest gold sinks were:

    NPC
    - 500k neon hair dye
    - Cloth for bandages
    - Armour and weps for some players
    - House deeds
    - Regs
    - Arrows
    - Horses

    Player made
    - GM armour sets
    - Weapons
    - Bandages
    - Fish steaks
    - Arrows
    - Deco etc


    I guess you could argue that a gold sink would need to be made eventually. Player economy would also need to matter - things like rares that are aesthetically desireable remove gold from some players and put it in the hands of others. Insurance sounds like a good idea but there is no way it has any impact on my bank balance.

    How about gametime for gold. Thats how we used to do it in my day :D
     
  5. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    what do you mean you can do this all you want with public trash barrels/chests?

    and I agree that is has nothing to do with a classic server, but I also know a lot of people have wanted gold sinks for a very very long time.
     
  6. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    those are the gold sinks that would hold it off for a long time yes, maybe now that duping has became harder to do, we would be good to go with just that... I hope!

    I still loved Vampire Of Baja idea to have a rares vendor that sold items only obtainable from the vendor, for high prices and after so many of an item was sold it would not be on the vendor again for a loooong time. that way the rares market stays strong, and massive amounts of gold left the server. however... that idea has 2 major flaws, one being the vendors prices would always need adjusted due to inflation, and two, after so many years the rars market might get flooded. but still, was a great concept
     
  7. I personally like the idea but would have to agree with Ox and Trev.

    By the way OX, I don't think i've seen you in like a decade man.
     
  8. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    It means if you want to "tax" yourself on your house, you can to it nice and voluntarily. Oddly enough in ALL of the years I have requested the people who have proposed house taxes do that (since they can do it now, at the rate they choose), NOONE has ever done it voluntarily.

    Basically, noone seems to care about walking the walk before demanding that everyone else do it as well. Just like in real life.
     
  9. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
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    people put in the time though. even a house tax would not be that big of a hit. my house is made for under 400k, even if you tax me 100% a year... it's not a big deal. but real world prop tax is what ... 1% ?
     
  10. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    uhh, do you realize that's not really a good arguement to me. because let's say I decide to tax myself a 1mil a week and throw it away, so I'm now losing gold and gold now has a much higher value to me. Now I walk into luna and want to buy an item, the item didn't all of a sudden come down in price because I myself is deleting gold... now if everyone was losing gold, then the value of gold would go up, bringing the price down. (hence my castle statement above)

    sorry, but I'm not God, the market is not directly tied into my personal funds. and that's why no one you know would do that. because that's not longer fixing a major inflation problem, that would be a personal hinderment...
     
  11. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    This idea... doesn't make sence?

    You want to tax a possibly new shard with a unique ruleset that makes it harder than production shards?

    There would be no char transfers (as that would break the idea of a classic shard).

    So... You want to tax a shard, where everyone starts off with brand new chars, maintaining money would be harder as things are much harder to kill, plus PKing.

    IMO, this idea sounds stupid.

    You say about people having 1 billion gold... Did you even think about this?

    How would people get 1 billion gold on a brand new shard like this, easily?
     
  12. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    i'm not saying it would fix lack of a gold sink on it's own by any means. and I would expect the tax rate to be very low, but when you have 30,000 homes paying a tax, even at 100gold per week that ends up being 3mil a week. tis not even a dent, but it's a start.
     
  13. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    it happened on all the shards, I never said people would get a billion gold quickly, but after 13 years of a classic shard being up, you don't think people would have that much gold? why not? it's happened on every single shard we have now, and all of them were classic shards.
     
  14. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    Yes, it's happened on all shards. Let's forget about insurance, trammel, or any other gameplay change since Pub 15. Because it hasn't become easier to make money and retain money since UO started, right? UO hasn't become inflated because you can now kill things solo that would one hit you on a classic shard, right?

    Next argument please?
     
  15. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    "Gold sinks" only work if the player who is filling the sink gets something for the effort.

    Taxing a house, without us gaining anything from it other than ownership is just stupid.

    In real-life, taxes are used to pay for things at the locality level that you, personally, can't pay for and shouldn't. Like schools, police force, etc.

    Now, I wouldn't have an issue with taxes in the game IF those taxes were:
    1) attached to a city/state in the game that you could select;
    2) used to add something to those cities/states that would reflect your efforts -- like extra guards, more shopkeepers, extra stables, more local flavor( attacks by monsters on the town, specialized quest npcs, etc.) more deco for the town, etc.

    Then yes, taxes would be good. Otherwise, you are effectively asking people to throw away their hard-earned gold for nothing, which is a waste of time to even ask.

    Try wandering luna demanding people drop 500K in the town trash barrels sometime.
     
  16. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    so it's easier to make money right? So should'nt there be a better balance? all you've said so far is that a classic server won't need gold sinks, and that people only have gold because it became an easier game?

    remember how much gold was in 97? then 98? then 99? it drops majorly, yes a lot of that was due to duping, but if duping is taken care of for the most part now, the server stays tough and the server recoups it's gold, it should stay balanced IMHO.


    p.s. insurance is a gold sink btw, anti-item sink of sorts. but still, you stated it as if it wasn't
     
  17. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    If it's "not fair" to do it to yourself, then please refrain from trying to create a system that forces everyone to do it.

    It would have been one thing if UO had done this since day 1 of housing availability, but as of now, what it turn in to is a forced extra payment to maintain the status quo. People don't like that. In effect, the end result is no different than throwing gold in a trash bin.

    A gold sink has to do more than just remove gold, it has to provide something in payment... equivalent exchange... if you will.

    Since house taxes were not a part of classic UO, they do not belong in a Classic Server and adding them in would be an extra payment for no benefit.
     
  18. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    how is owning a house nothing? don't you get to own the house? ;) insurance on items is no different, insurance let's you keep what you earned for a price, tax is the same thing. Just like in real life, I'm paying over $3,000 a year in property tax for this house, because I want to keep it, therefore I get something out of it :)

    as I said, it was just an idea, not saying it was the best, or even the right one. I know a lot of games are shifting that way and back in I think 99ish a lot of players were talking about it.
     
  19. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    There are enough taxes in rl without them creeping into our gaming worlds too thank you very much.
     
  20. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    as I said, I understand there was no taxes to start off with. but most people agree there needs to be more gold sinks in the game. we would have to start somewhere.



    "If it's "not fair" to do it to yourself, then please refrain from trying to create a system that forces everyone to do it."

    how can you not understand that it's hindering to one person? All I'm trying to tell you is that one person deleting his gold will not bring the prices of items/homes down. can you please explain to me how that would work? I only see it working if most people were doing it.


    example:

    everyone on the shard has 1mil gold, someone is selling a castle, what do you think the price would be?

    everyone on the shard has 100billion gold, do you think the price of the castle would go up?

    everyone has 100billion gold and one guy deletes 999mil of his gold, do you think a castle will now be under 1mil gold?
     
  21. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    After just going thru filing my income taxes for 2009 you want I should pay taxes in UO as well? Nay, nay ... a 1000 times nay!

    Find another way that has some return on it and I might go for it.
     
  22. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    I stated it because 600Gp per item is cheaper than having to re-buy the item.

    You didn't argue anything.

    You just said if they removed duping, it should remained balanced. Thus not needing taxes?

    You said it yourself, a lot of the gold you mentioned was through duping. So everyone should be punished because you can't distinguish between time frames and different ruleset shards? Really? You should probably stop now.
     
  23. Fink

    Fink Guest

    I think it's silly adding things that never existed to a so-called "Classic" shard when people can't even agree what to leave out.

    That said I think heavy taxes should be applied to poor people (those will less than say 5 billion gold). It would encourage them to achieve more and be less of a burden on society. If they can't or won't pay, they would be put in stocks so the passer-by can jeer at them and throw rotten tomatoes. In extreme cases they could be publicly beheaded, which would permanently prevent resurrection.

    It goes without saying that the very rich should be exempt from taxes as it would otherwise discourage people from bettering themselves.
     
  24. dum3886

    dum3886 Guest

    Maybe they can tax certain areas only? i.e: right outside brit moongate etc...

    I will vote no.. but thats bcz i dun think people who r very casual players should be taxed... will just drive people away but i am all for taxing people who own prime locations. So my guess right outside dungeons/moongates etc... [presuming this is classic shard we r talking about thus y i did not include luna etc...]
     
  25. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    I said it should, but inflation will still kick in, and also there was duping on every shard. Don't take my word for it that no dupes = balanced economy, who am I to make that guess? It's just all hopes for me.

    what do you mean about with punishing people because I cant distinguish between time frames/rulesets?


    I know that you love to troll on this site, so I think this entire 'arguement' is pointless. but bottom line it I just don't want to see a classic shard be born and inflation drive away new players, and that's a big part of why people won't stick around today. I know a few people who felt that way. sorry, I just remember how much easier it was dealing with small amounts of money. ****, I'd be all for reducing all gold drops by 90% and lowering all NPC prices by 90% so we don't have to have vendors holding a ton of gold 5 to 10 years from now.
     
  26. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    If it is a classic shard then it should be classic house rules.

    For anyone forgets, the original method was for a house to be refreshed by owner or friend every 7 days.

    If they want to go really classic, then 1 house per character. But that is probably too much.
     
  27. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    1 house per character wasn't terrible, but i think the problem was when people would drop their 5 small homes, put up a large tower/keep, then place 4 more small homes blocking the front of it off.
     
  28. I think all the scripters/dupers that already have houses in Luna should have to pay a tax in order to fund a Classic Shard.

    And then they should be banned...forever.
     
  29. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    I've yet to read anything from you that I do not agree with :thumbup1:

    but, time to let the thread die already it seems. besides the arguments, the voting is already overwhelming. I'll wait a while then make a new post about goldsinks yea/nay sorta thing.
     
  30. Really, the problem is that goldsinks will NOT help the current shards. They are so far beyond broken that most (99%) of the players that occupy them don't even see it.

    Recently, someone posted a 'WTF? My garbage is worth less than it was a few months ago' thread here. I rolled my eyes. Of course it is worth less than it was...IT IS GARBAGE!

    The items in UO ARE NOT REAL! They are worth NOTHING! There is no guarantee that this game will not close down tomorrow! These items are only worth what the somewhat captive audience will pay for them, and as that captive audience realizes that they are captive...they will pay less and less.

    It does not take a genius to figure that a meal on the Titanic, on the first night of the voyage, was worth X amount. But as it was ass-end up and going down by the head...those meals were simply worthless.

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news...but we are all, as a group of players, over the hump.

    Will a Classic Shard bring it back?

    Let's hope not. This game has taken the path of destruction. The item based model can only last so long, and then it will implode. I think we are just beginning to see the fringes of the end.

    Imbuing ushered it in, and now, the people that made REAL money from UO (as in actual dollars) are suffering. Once they are gone, and their scripter accounts, UO will fail.

    It's always been there...the spectre of death...but now we see her face...and it is not pretty.
     
  31. Jandruz

    Jandruz Journeyman
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    And no lock downs. Thieves could steal your stuff if they managed to get in. If you lost your key/didn't lock up...the good ole days :p
     
  32. No need to be obtuse...we get it...you didn't like the old days.

    No one ever said that the old days were perfect.

    House security was needed from day 1, and I cannot imagine that the population of a Classic Shard (beyond a handful of griefers) would resist it.
     
  33. Jandruz

    Jandruz Journeyman
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    Optimistic much?

    UO is doing just fine. Last I heard there were over 100,000 active accounts. 100,000 x $10 per mo = 1,000,000 x 12 mo = $12,000,000 per year. The costs to maintain this game cannot be anywhere near that. EA is still coining money on this game.

    A classic shard will help by bringing nostalgic players back, and retaining those that are hanging around waiting for it. I'd love to see it happen. Gold Sinks will be important to maintaining balance in the economy. Whether you have a housing tax or something else, a gold sink will eventually become necessary.
     
  34. Jandruz

    Jandruz Journeyman
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    Are you talking to me? I loved the good ole days. Thieving was my favorite pastime! :D
     
  35. *sigh*

    You have nothing to back up any of the numbers you have quoted (beyond the math itself). If you can show that there are 100,000 active subscribers...then please post a link.

    Also, can you proved anything that addresses how many of those subscribers are nothing more than script bots? How many are mulitiple accounts by players that are paying for an account (or 5) to simply hold a house on a shard??

    I hate conversations like this, because they are all based completely on suppositon.
     
  36. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    when most of us talk of a classic shard, we do not mean day 1 shard. We just want away from pretty much what AoS brought, maybe even tram.

    I remember not too long after this became an item based game there was someone at the bank who had all the major artis and he made the comment; "well, looks like I beat UO". At first I wanted to argue that you can't beat an MMO... but he was right in a way. If you want to do pretty much anything now you have certain items you 'must' have to do it, what happens when you have every item and an item based game could provide you? well, you're pretty much done.

    So we are not looking for the grief fest UO was at launch exactly, we just want a game where items do not determine our next goal. Where it was more about community and spending your time doing whatever you wanted, not grinding out endless hours in doom or whatnot.

    to me lockdowns, forcing house placement to be 1 tile away from blockables ect ect were improvements for the best. So I support those in a classic shard, I just don't support the game overhauls they did that shot the real UO in the face and tried to take its place... and failed

    that is also why I pictched the house tax idea, it's popular in other games and people don't complain. and I've heard many UO players mention it, so I thought I'd just ask and see what us here thought of it. Again, even classic shards might have/need improvements, that's why we are endlessly kicking around ideas.
     
  37. dum3886

    dum3886 Guest

    "Optimistic much?

    UO is doing just fine. Last I heard there were over 100,000 active accounts. 100,000 x $10 per mo = 1,000,000 x 12 mo = $12,000,000 per year. The costs to maintain this game cannot be anywhere near that. EA is still coining money on this game.

    A classic shard will help by bringing nostalgic players back, and retaining those that are hanging around waiting for it. I'd love to see it happen. Gold Sinks will be important to maintaining balance in the economy. Whether you have a housing tax or something else, a gold sink will eventually become necessary."


    ROFL 12 million dollars.. that is NOTHING!!! 12 million dollars to a normal person is a lot but 12 million dollars to EA is toilet paper. Then consider the cost of developers, COGS, advertism (if any lol) etc... Im assumignt hey are making SOME money or it would have been axed but it is probably getting very very close to the point when they see the profit is getting so small they might as well assign the developers onto something else.

    Dun believe me go look at their financial statement. Look at their financial statement
     
  38. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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  39. Fink

    Fink Guest

    I would argue that the game beat him. If your list of achievements or desires begins and ends with acquiring every artifact, then item-based play has truly crushed you as a UO player. I'm not saying collecting arties is pointless or wrong, but it's hardly the be all and end all.

    Even post-AoS, acquiring items is a pretty narrow slice of what the game has to offer. But since then it's been drummed into us by devs, marketing, and fellow players "You want this item. Get this item." and people blindly go out and do it. And then when they have it they're bored again until the next content update.

    Not to needlessly bash WoW but this is the type of culture for which that game is known and criticised. UO is purported to have more depth. It's just a shame so many people only scratch the surface then give up on the so-called deeper play beneath.
     
  40. Jandruz

    Jandruz Journeyman
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    Right - No advertising, very little cost to maintain their website and servers, New development occurs with the expansions, but it's not costing them much. How many people do you think they have working on this game company wide? Not many. You are correct that 12,000,000 is a drop in the bucket to EA, but their costs to maintain the game are ridiculously low. That is why they keep it around. I bet the profit margin on UO is huge.
     
  41. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    if you take the time and think about how in depth UO is compared to WoW, you an even spend your entire time growing plants if you wanted to. but every aspect of the game has been infected with the item based, even with plants they have the rare seeds ect. I swear before going into a place like deceit was "let's see if we can get to the end!" now it's "what do I get out of it?". Shame
     

  42. Well...it DID. Once.
     
  43. Jandruz

    Jandruz Journeyman
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online#cite_note-2
    Here's one link. Paragraph 3. Yes, I know it's wikipedia, and that the site is not always accurate, and I know the citation is to something form 06/07. So the numbers have changed, likely declined, but even if it dropped by 1/3, they are still doing pretty well.

    Anyway, I don't want to hijack Derium's thread. So, to get back on point:
    Classic Shard = Good.
    Gold sinks = Good.
    Property Tax in UO = might be good
    Property Tax in RL = sux.
     
  44. I agree...


    ...property taxes in real life SUCK.
     
  45. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    haha, well put sir

    this thread and idea is pretty much beat into the ground, so it's okay. Like I said, I'll try asking about possible gold sink ideas later. They never stuck back when some players were pushing for them, but hey you never know.

    Also, the health of an in game economy has pretty much always been reflected by the price of in game money. back in 99 I was getting $100 per mil when I did sell, I'm getting $0.35 now, IF (big if there) UO is around for another 10 years, if gold was $0.01 per mil I bet no one would ever sell high end items/homes for in game gold... kinda like it pretty much is now. But back then most people wanted in game gold for items, even when cash was offered.

    has anyone here ever played Entropia universe? (if you have, I'm not saying UO needs to be that way, but you will know what a 100% stable economy is like)
     
  46. No, just no.

    Housing tax? Why? We would already have housing decay. A tax would be a pointless annoyance.
     
  47. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Why bother with taxes...it may appear to be a good idea but unless you get something out of it it would just be seen as pointless once implemented. Not everyone has a lot of money and it would likely ruin housing for a lot of people.
     
  48. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
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    im all for a tax as long i can gain interest on the gold i have in the bank
     
  49. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Deal. Tax will be the same percent interest you gain on the amount of gold you have in your bank. Thus the interest you gain will go towards the tax. That way everything will be the same as it is now. :D

    ...except for those who have no house. They will be gaining gold.
     
  50. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    I think a better gold sink would be on Classic Shard thread posts. After say 10 you have to pay a million in game gold to make another and so on. Oh wait, most of those people don't play UO as it is. NM


    No taxes please. This is a game. There are better ways to sink gold out of the system. It's obvoius the devs aren't too concerned with it.