1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Template choice for the new bard powers

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Pinco, May 22, 2010.

  1. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,675
    Likes Received:
    865
    Bank Singer
    With this powerfull template you can help vendor gater to keep enough mana for their important task.
    Skills:
    Musicianship 120
    Peacemaking 120
    meditation 120
    focus 120
    while you stay in the middle of the place in party of a vendor gater you can spam song lyrics and making the powerfull banksitter happy during you're performance.

    Wanderer Observer
    With this character you can wander around the world and watch othe players playing. This template has the hard task to party with everyone and help them without do nothing.
    Skills:
    musicianship 120
    discordance 120
    peacemaking 120
    provocation 120
    meditation 120
    focus 120
    With this template you can change everyday your mastery and find funny ways to watch the others.

    Zombie Mule
    This character is made in a secondary account and barely controlled. Just put it in follow of your main character and activate the spell (hoping it will stay alive)
    The skills are the same of the wandering observer


    There are no other choices.
    This new spells would be very usefull with every template IF they wont stop at every spell that you cast. But now? Who want to pay an account for wandering around and watch other players playing...
    and what can you do whitout using spells? and neither the bardic ability attached to the spell?
    a worker? nope, unless you fight mongbats and not elemetals...
    a tamer? big bosses do area damage so you cant only use bandages for healing pets
    a warrior/archer? neither, without chvalry spells you can only fight low-end critters.
    a mage? obviously not...
     
  2. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2003
    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    134
    thats pretty much the role of a las vegas musician these days, maybe there ideas ring some truth to the economy here.
     
  3. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,675
    Likes Received:
    865
    amazing how a great thing can become garbage...
    6 new spells with images
    3 new quests
    all for something that has no real uses :(
    what a waste of time... a fix for camping should have a better use :D
     
  4. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,889
    Likes Received:
    5,175
    Can we explore this topic further?
    If I'm understanding it correctly While a spell song is in use you can not cast any other form of spell, no matter what discipline without the spell being interrupted.
    You can use another skill. You can vet a pet, you can heal with a bandage, you can use the rest of your barding skills, you can use a melee skill.
    You can cast gift of renewal first and it will remain active if you cast the spellsong after it.

    I don't see it as 'useless' it just needs a bit of thinking about.
     
  5. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,675
    Likes Received:
    865
    Let's see a place like doom:
    with my tamer I do not stay close my pet because the wither damage of the DF will hit me and make me a target so the only way to keep the pet is magery.
    If I have to use magery for heal myself and the pet I cannot keep active the bardic spell. Like the DF almost all high level critter has an area damage that do not allow you to stay close and heal (always IF you can fit music + bard skill + vet together).

    A warrior? yes, sure try to fight without cast consacrate weapon every 5-10 seconds and tell me what's your damage... (unlsess you have a perfect 100% damage weapon for each slayer and you can switch it for every moster)
     
  6. Shelleybean

    Shelleybean Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,856
    Likes Received:
    51
    LOL funny templates :)
     
  7. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Us bards have been accused of looking a gift horse in the mouth in other words not appreciating this awesome bonus. The reality is we have waited for years for some meaningful changes to our FOUR skills. The truth is there should never have been more than 2 skills for a bard. There should have been different spell songs from the outset. There is no reason we shouldn't have a song book with at least 16 songs. We should have the musicianship skill and then perhaps an instrument skill. Peacing, provoking, discording, enticing, etc. should have come from songs in our book. Song lengths (akin to casting times) and durations of effects would vary with each song.

    Petra, before you start locking threads and getting all high and mighty, just remember we bards have been begging for changes for years. This is our one and only chance to get anything done. Sadly, it looks like it's a done deal and we're stuck with it. Maybe you'll see our griping for another week or so and then it will be another page in UO history.

    It's sad to see the time wasted on this latest change to give us such a sorry result. It's also insulting that gardeners (which aren't even a skilled class) have gotten so much more development time. I'm not knocking gardeners or saying they shouldn't have gotten the things they have. It's just an illustration of the lopsidedness of this.
     
  8. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,675
    Likes Received:
    865
    IMHO only 2 things will get this system really good:
    - You may cast any spell without break the bard spell effect (ONLY CHANCE TO MAKE THE SYSTEM OK)
    - Threat the bardic skills like combat skill. For every skill you gain LMC bonus only for the bardic spells.

    As it is, the bardic skills will be the future bot system in UO :D
     
  9. I've been trying to find how these effects are best going to apply and it seems that the primary way is with pets. Secondary ways with regen dexxers, sampires, maybe bandage dexxers, or anything that doesn't necessarily need to cast. Thats for the bard themselves.

    The rest of it only really works well with party.

    So although a few of the effects are nice, the restrictions make useability very limited, especially for what you need to sustain it.

    On monsters that counter sustaining the Discord effects will be pretty tough, I tried the Slasher on TC yesterday with a couple of templates that should have worked, didn't work so well. Also tested the 40 DI bonus with a pack of frenzies didn't notice much difference so not sure if that was working.
     
  10. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2001
    Messages:
    30,889
    Likes Received:
    5,175
    :( I try very hard not to get 'high and mighty'. Just keep things civil. I'm perfectly willing to admit when I'm wrong, which I apparently am this time. I was trying to find a positive side to these songs. So they might come in handy very occasionally in the right circumstances, but on the whole they're a waste of time?
     
  11. Compared to what ya could be doing... pretty much, yeah... the songs that is... not the you trying to find positives about it. As unlike it as it may look I'm actually trying the same, though not because I'm positive but because I've concluded its a waste of time, Logrus has a 'vision' for bards that I don't agree with, and no amount of logic, fact, rationality or practicality is going to change that vision.
     
  12. Shelleybean

    Shelleybean Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,856
    Likes Received:
    51
    Hey lets not beat up on Petra. Some of us are frustrated but that's not her fault. The way I see it is Petra, unlike a lot of players, has actually gone on the Test Center and tested some of the bard stuff out. So to test it out and like the bard stuff is pretty cool. However I have to agree with the general sentiment that the mastery abilities will be useful in a very limited number of circumstances. The concept looks great on paper, but when actually go out and try to use them, you can see a lot of drawbacks.
     
  13. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,675
    Likes Received:
    865
    probably if Logrus back to our world and see the real effectiveness of its creation, he will know what's wrong with it... it seems that his world is too far away from us :D
     
  14. Scarst

    Scarst Lore Master
    Governor Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2008
    Messages:
    1,235
    Likes Received:
    91
    I never Heard about bard updates but these songs sound like they'd be useful unless they don't let you use other bard skills while you have the ability of one then it sounds hindering. I haven't tried them and I wouldn't know where to do the quests on test but if it doesn't hinder your use of the other bard skills and you get a free spell that you can switch out for another (even by having to do a quest) I don't see any down side.

    Is there a block on the other skills while you have a mastery?
    If not I think people are just complaining because they can't have all of them.

    Then again I haven't tested it and I'm going off what I've read.
     
  15. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
    Professional VIP Stratics Veteran Supporter Alumni Campaign Benefactor Alumni

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    8,023
    Likes Received:
    1,714
    Woah, woah...so a bard can cast no other spells while the new bardic spells are in effect?
     
  16. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,675
    Likes Received:
    865
    if you have a discordance mastery when you use discordance once the spell is active, this break the effect.
    if you cast any spell when the bardic one is in effect, you break it.
    if you get damaged (like 15-20 hp) the effect will break
    if you discord an enemy and then you use a bard spell on it, you remove the discordance effect from him.
     
  17. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
    Professional VIP Stratics Veteran Supporter Alumni Campaign Benefactor Alumni

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    8,023
    Likes Received:
    1,714
    But I'm thinking for my disco/archer. Will the disco effect break if I use EOO, consecrate, close wounds, etc.?
     
  18. Shelleybean

    Shelleybean Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,856
    Likes Received:
    51
    Yes, casting any chivalry spell will break the disco effect.

    Using the disco effect will also break the disco.
     
  19. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
    Professional VIP Stratics Veteran Supporter Alumni Campaign Benefactor Alumni

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    8,023
    Likes Received:
    1,714
    That's crazy! Hold on, I've never gotten to use this smiley before . . .

    :lame:
     
  20. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Premium Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    7,469
    Likes Received:
    361
    the best combo is with pets from what i am hearing and seeing or melee
     
  21. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
    Professional VIP Stratics Veteran Supporter Alumni Campaign Benefactor Alumni

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2008
    Messages:
    8,023
    Likes Received:
    1,714
    Interesting. I can understand how pets would be helpful - simply use aids instead of g. heal. However, I would think that melee would receive less damage bonus from barding than they would from casting EOO/consecrate/divine fury/LS.
     
  22. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2003
    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    134
    no matter how you cut it, if this goes through, the only effective template WILL be tamers, and its as if you become a statue. so to reiterate, the bards dont need additions, they need modifications.

    p.s. petra love ya
     
  23. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 17, 2008
    Messages:
    894
    Likes Received:
    67
    From what I am reading this was a real waste of development time. I know everyone who ever played a bard was hoping for something useful.

    I remember back in UO:R when they through the nerf stick at bards. It didn't go well. There were even protests in game.
     
  24. Minerva Foxglove

    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2008
    Messages:
    682
    Likes Received:
    321
    So the bard in a party will not benefit from this, as he cant cast anything? He just makes the party members very powerful and will get no drops or even looting rights?
    Does this only work in a party, not when you are on your own?
     
  25. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    For those that didn't read the other threads or didn't know much about the posters in those threads, the whole reason this bard "enhancement" is so totally lame, is because of fear from the PvP crowd that bards would somehow invade their turf. I dare say there will be more than 5 PvPers in all of UO that will waste 180 skill points to implement just one of these mastery abilities.

    Logrus' tunnel vision is a joke.
     
  26. Yes. I guess waste of time isn't the right way to describe them. The right way to think about them is that it's not worth giving up other skills in order to use these.

    For example, on a tamer, none of the new bard mastery skills is nearly worth the cost of not being able to cast greater heal, cleansing winds, invis, sleep, paralyze, etc. Just think about what you have to give up in order to maintain the bard song effect (to say nothing of the fact that these songs require mana maintenance).

    On a bard/mage (I guess this is the most traditional bard template and what I use on my main char) the mastery skills are totally useless. My favorite benefit of this template is that I can be in the middle of almost any situation, and with good timing on provoke & discord and the right combination of magery spells like invisibility, healing/curing, EVs, paralyze, direct damage spells etc. I can fight effectively. No chance at all to use any of the masteries on this template unless I'm willing to stand in the corner; and even then I give up the ability to invis or heal myself.

    The dexxer/sampire/healing warrior templates some have suggested don't really make sense to me because the mastery effects are canceled when you take a certain amount of damage.

    For archers, the buffs or debuffs that you get from bard mastery songs are just plain trivial when compared to the combination of enemy of one, consecrate weapon & lightning strike.

    In virtually all cases (warrior & magic spells), you'll get much better result through casting & using effects than you will from the mana that bards must expend just for upkeep.

    Finally, while the primary (basically exclusive) use of these bard songs is for buff & debuff effects, plenty of other classes get useful buff/debuff/damage over time effects (poison, sleep, corpse skin, gift of renewal, curse, bless, strangle and on and on). The biggest difference is, bards are the only ones to be penalized by not being able to do anything else. If I want to cast strangle, curse, corpse skin, explosion, flamestrike in succession, I can. But if I use bard song, I forgo any further opportunity add on another debuff or cast any direct damage spells.

    And really finally - other classes can stack on effects that stay active for a period of time, but bards must both spend mana for upkeep AND stay in the area to main the effect. If you cast strangle on someone and they run off, they still need to chomp an apple or wait for the effect to wear off (or I guess they could ignore it). You put despair song on someone and they run off it's done. Not to mention, it's pretty damn suicidal for bards to try to maintain their spell effects in PvP when they can't heal themselves with magery/mysticism/bushido/chivalry, they can't invis or hide, they can't go into animal form, and on and on.

    It all comes down to, what's the point?
     
  27. No, I don't agree that these masteries will be effective for either tamers or melee either.

    For tamers, you'd need to give up the ability to cast any spells to help your pets. So, I guess it would work for any tamers out there that don't cast greater heal, cure, close wounds, cleansing winds, dispel revenant, bless, remove curse, maybe a few fireballs etc. But let's be honest, the opportunity for tamers who stand next to their pets and vet are rare these days. In all other cases, the bard song effects are just not worth what giving up the ability to cast spells, and upkeep costs will run you out of mana.

    For melee, there are two main problems. First is the bard song effects are canceled when you take damage, and unless you find sport in hunting stuff that doesn't fight back, you're gonna be taking damage in melee (people who farm cows for leather are gonna love the new bard skills!). Second (this is truly the repeatable theme for these skills), it's just not worth giving up other stuff in order to use the bard song effects, even for a melee warrior. You'll get much better mileage from enemy of one, consecrate weapon & lightning strike (especially in vampire form).

    So, the bottom line is that while these new effects seem to be nice, it's just going to be unbelievably rare when they are more useful than other skill alternatives. Even in situations where the bard song effects seem awesome (big group hunting something that doesn't move around, need to stay in range), the fact that the songs require increased upkeep for additional members severely limits duration. So while nice, it would probably just be better to bring an archer or mage to help deal out some additional damage.
     
  28. This is true as well. When I first looked at the song effects, I thought to myself, hmm that despair spell might be useful on my bard/mage when we get raided. I could use it to do about 18 points of damage every 2 seconds to someone with all 70s resists, then maybe even throw in a curse, poison or paralyze and maybe a flamestrike or something. It's not gonna be terribly effective compared to what a real PvPer can do to me, but maybe it will at least make them not think I'm a sitting duck (for those wondering, I'm an effective PvPer, just not with a bard). But you can't cast any spells to do damage or to help yourself, so flush that down the toilet.

    Any of the potential bard party buffs are totally worthless as well. When you get raided at a spawn how many of you out there like to all stay on the same screen? Plus, to maintain the song I can't cast any healing spells, can't cure, can't dispel a revenant, can't invis, I can't run AND TO TOP IT OFF I have to spend maintenance on bard song when no other class does? Yeah, I can see it's still gonna be awesome to get raided while playing a bard. People are gonna be super scared now.
     
  29. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Messages:
    6,528
    Likes Received:
    2,914
    Yeah that horrible nerf of no longer being able to provoke ANYTHING in game with 60 provoke. That's what the "nerf" was, it just added difficulties, rather than you skill being your chance to succeed. How unfair.

    But not to derail the thread, I agree, if you cant cast spells/melee skill abilities, or even other barding (for goodness sake!), then these songs are pointless unless your a tamer hunting non boss monsters, but thats already easy as pie.

    At least make a check to see if casting drops the effect or something based on your various music skills. That wouldn't be so bad if the check was reasonably high.
     
  30. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2003
    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    134
    i believe logrus is making some changes, check the bard forum
     
  31. Pinco

    Pinco UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2005
    Messages:
    5,675
    Likes Received:
    865