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Thanks to Kyronix and Bleak (no thats not sarcasm)

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Cetric, Apr 12, 2013.

  1. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Everyone is always complaining all the time, so just wanted to toss this out there.

    Your extra communication on the boards through the publish testing and especially on test center has been great. A lot of people probably don't remember or purposely forget, but many devs crammed things down our throats and never communicated with us. While the communication in some areas has been lacking as mentioned by many, others definitely appreciate your help.

    Tons of people are still complaining about refinements, but haven't even paid attention to the most recent chanegs to them, nor have they tested themselves. Its a shame, because these guys have done a fairly decent job in making a system that is actually optional, and not even a necessity. Something so many other systems have failed at. I was horrified when i thought i needed to redo all my suits (again). But i don't, and that is great.

    You also managed to come up with a solution to non-medable armor, that actually makes it very useful without hurting the usefulness of medable leather. Players tossed around ideas for non-med like crazy, and i don't believe i ever saw the suggestion coem out for stam loss reductions and extra lmc. It definitely adds another dimension to armor options, something that was extremely lacking. I only ever had a reason to have wood and leather on hand before. these mini-boosts plus the options for refinements definitely make heavy armor useful again, and it hasn't been useful in a decade, amazingly, without hurting the other armor types, and without making an overpowered armor concept.

    The normalization and slight boosts to weapons and archery, while lessoning throwing just a tad was a good job. Weapons didn't need overhauled, just tweaked. And While I like many others would like to see soemthing in the future really differentiate the weapons classes besides specials, i think this was a good step in the right direction.

    So thanks. You actually did a pretty good job, despite all the hate :) And Bleak - keep working on that hiding of the robe concept ;)
     
    #1 Cetric, Apr 12, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
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  2. Kyronix

    Kyronix UO Designer
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    You're welcome :D
     
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  3. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    You know me - ever the cynic.....

    But despite the communication - if it doesn't impact your suit in any way - then what is the point?
    My issue is not at the football team but the coach. Why is our developer time even focused on this? Explain to me what refinements are bringing to the game/balance/enjoyment? How is going to attract new players? If it doesn't impact current suits - then what did we spend all that developer money and my subscription money for? I feel like my $$ is being wasted on a monthly basis. Lets make the game better - not just more complex. I see no added value to refinements at all.

    I have issues with the very top which is Mesanna or whomever is setting direction for the priorities of the game. I fail to see how this publish makes the game much better save for the new added information on the 2D gump so we can see DCI/HCI/LRC and stuff we have asked for over the last 5-10 years.
     
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  4. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    I've got to agree with Cetric. There are still some questions I have on the usefulness of all parts of this publish, but I look forward to the challenge of finding new ways to maximize my character's suits.

    So what is coming next in pub 82?
     
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  5. Shakkara

    Shakkara Slightly Crazed
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    This update has some good, but overall it is an outright disaster, because...

    * Mage armor is the single worst solution I've ever seen in a game and should be reverted immediately. Mage armor = make meddable, not remove LMC and stamina protection!
    * Mage armor still takes up an imbuing slot
    * The removal of Mage armor now limits stealthers to leather. You'd think a rogue would wear studded or ringmail, no-no.
    * Refinement adds 240 different, unstackable items to the game.
    * Refinement makes me godly in PVM as my sampire can now have an additional >20% damage mitigation at no cost.
    * Refinement can unbalance PVP when sacrificing cold/poison resist only.
    * Balanced on 2h weapons removes ability to parry, WHY?
    * Dragon scales in general, lol
    * Yellow dragon scales, wtflol
    * Half the metal ingot types are still worthless, ingots below gold should have resists increased, and agapite should get +1
    * Spined leather and gold should compare to oak in total resists (11)
    * Spined leather should also add some other resist than physical because it is impossible to make a valid luck suit using leather, making studded and bone not valid choices in this case.
    * Let's nerf chivalry some more without compensating, as if it wasn't bad already.
    * City stone nomnomnoming the money every day for no reason (noone going to put any money in until the last minute now, making community efforts much more difficult to organize).
    * No systems in place for the governors to do anything with (just the trade buff for citizens). It all depends on the time availability and whims of the EMs for the governors to get anything done.
    * Almost all the updated special moves are still useless.

    Ok I'll credit you for the good too, to be fair:

    * Weapon damage normalization
    * Double strike special move
    * Stamina Protection / Innate LMC
    * HCI removed from gargoyles
    * 2H weapon imbue cap increase

    Overall, still very negative, sorry. :(
     
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  6. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Throwing was not lessened a tad

    Throwing was smashed with the nerf stick.

    Lowering chance to hit and amount of damage dealt is about all you can do to nerf a specific warrior class 100%

    Stack on top of that the universal stamina refresh nerf and you have a triple play.

    I will wait to pass judgement on whether or not the pvp Thrower is finished as a powerful 1 vs 1 template but either way you slice it Throwers were hit very hard.

    If you are going to cheerlead please do it based upon facts next time :)
     
  7. Shakkara

    Shakkara Slightly Crazed
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    Agreed, maybe the throwing weapons were over-nerfed a little bit. Didn't have time to test those, I'm affraid :(
     
  8. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Thanks are definitely in order to Bleak & Kyronix for the overall improvement in communication(lets be honest though. Any amount of communication meant a huge improvement)and the swift response to some of the crippling initial stamina ideas.

    :)
     
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  9. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    They ofc were but as that is how UO nerfs have always worked it was to be expected.

    I guess I will now have to take off my oven mitts while playing my pvp Thrower :(
     
  10. aHolyCow

    aHolyCow Visitor

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    throwing was barely even nerfed..lol..

    Base damage came down but it's almost pointless as back to back armor ignores is 90% of my kills

    5 hci? If 5% HCI makes or break difference for you than you're not doing it right in the first place...

    In fact, 1v1 my thrower was buffed considering all the nerd rage I'll be receiving again now that you can't just animal form away once I foot you and remount while you struggle to stay alive. God the tears are going to be pouring.
     
  11. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    ehh, 50hci was always a little annoying with gargoyles, just made them better than other classes. The damage dealt has been normalized with other classes, but they still have ranged weapons that do not require balanced, and their suits can be very powerful. They also still only need two weapons to cover the 5 specials they need, which is a pretty hefty advantage.

    I for one am not going to be deleting my thrower, as it will remain viable. Throwers were overpowered, however you feel like slicing it. Now they line up well with the other classes, and in soem cases, are still better..

    As for the stam pot nerf, i should just laugh at you now. with50 ep stam pots still refresh 100 stamina. It's not like its a big deal. Besides, thate ffects all weapon classes.
     
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  12. -Hey Arnold-

    -Hey Arnold- Seasoned Veteran

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    I have tested the refinements and i must say i think they are pretty balanced i don't see a ton of people using them in pvp but still a good option. I do how ever think the ninja changes need to be tweaked..Ether making the casting speed 0 and not being able to fizzle it or leaving the casting speed as it was and allowing it to be fizzled..I think Making it 0 casting and fizz-able will kill pretty much all dexers and mages who like to fight 1v3+ (and win)...I think most pvpers (good) will agree that if u cant kill some one by the time they get into ninja forum then they dont deserve to die.
     
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  13. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    At 50 ep one total/greater refresh pot will still take me from 1 stamina all the back up to 190 stamina?

    Assume you meant only 100 stam? Not 100% stam?
     
    #13 Goldberg-Chessy, Apr 12, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  14. ShadowTrauma

    ShadowTrauma Seasoned Veteran
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    There are definately some that merely "complain", but let's not also lump in all those posters that are "critical" while giving feedback. * There are indeed those who are more successful here obviously. *

    Still there are some valid criticisms with Refinements in particular, however you are correct when you say some recent changes have helped improve the system. We will now need to wait before we see the full consequences on PvE and PvP. I still caution people to be aware that with a system like this in game we may now see a future of encounters designed where Refinements are "needed", which obviously would diminish the "optional" description.

    I would also agree with you that thanks are deserved, any communication is always appreciated. Only time will tell the true impacts of this massive publish, I can however respect the ambitious nature of these changes.

    Thank you for giving us the opportunity to provide feedback and thank you for the increased communication... we will always want more. :D

    * Edit - Big thanks to Tina Small as well (in addition to the other testers), your tireless effort and help is appreciated.
     
    #14 ShadowTrauma, Apr 12, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
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  15. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    The majority of the publish was a good one. Still not sure about refinements in PVP, but as far as improving trammel nice work I guess.
     
  16. Bleak

    Bleak UO Software Engineer
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    We have never given a detailed explanation of the throwing sweet spot and I would like time to do that now. For explanation purposes the attacker and defender will be at equal skill with no HCI or DCI. The sweet spot mechanic is defined as “Distance from target affects the damage and accuracy of the thrown weapon”. Let’s take a look at accuracy first, based on the range of the weapon a final hit chance modifier can scale between 50% when in close quarters and 105% at the optimum sweet spot. The close quarter penalty can be negated by having high dexterity or throwing skill equal to or higher to Grandmaster.

    So for example a player attacking an enemy with a 50% chance to hit in the most optimum sweet spot will actually have a 52.5% final hit chance. So in terms of adjusting Gargoyle hit chance increase cap from 50 to 45, before if a player attacked a target with 45 DCI they would have a base final hit chance of 52 % which can be modified by the optimum sweet spot to 54%.

    In terms of how damage scales for the sweet spot mechanic it’s similar to how hit chance is calculated. Based on the range of the weapon a final damage modifier can scale between 50% the farther away you are from the target and 105% at the optimum sweet spot. The damage penalty can be negated by high strength but also scales based on your current stamina versus total stamina.
     
  17. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I didn't put a percent sign there.
     
  18. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    Can we get the invuln armor refinements to just auto select all resists?

    ETA: Also for the status bar is it possible to turn FC/FCR into one slot and add Mana Regen as one?
     
    #18 Berethrain, Apr 12, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
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  19. aHolyCow

    aHolyCow Visitor

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    Any news on being able to re-enhance leather armor with the new buffed version of the leather enhancements?

    This patch ruined all our suits..were talking 25-30 resists
     
  20. -Hey Arnold-

    -Hey Arnold- Seasoned Veteran

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    Yeah the Enhance Leather needs to go live.


    Also Tweak Ninja! :)
     
  21. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    You sure didnt :)

    So now you will want/need to carry twice as many refresh pots as before to keep up your old ssi.

    And thats no big deal?

    I laugh at that logic.
     
  22. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I feel bad for you goldberg, you are gunna have such a rough time.

    I dunno how you play a dexer, but i use refreshes way before i'm below half to maintain speed, so i won't be using extra except for the points where i get nuked for a ton of damage quick, but my stam reduction on no-med armor will help with that..
     
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  23. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Welcome to the world of the Archer.... glad you could join us at the bottom of the hate pit.
     
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  24. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    So really, a gargs sweet spot hit chance went down by 1.5%. welp, i guess the base damage went down atleast hehe.
     
  25. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    On the plus side - add the view for the 2D client character sheet to finally show LRC, LMC, DCI/HCI etc. This has been needed for a LONG time.
     
  26. Shakkara

    Shakkara Slightly Crazed
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    Ah true, I don't play on the 2D client but it absolutely helps to increase the usability for those that use it!
     
  27. Lore Denin (GL)

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    I agree with Cetric, Well done on the publish. I know I have provided many posts with counter feedback but I hope it was viewed as positive/productive feedback rather then negative.

    Also well done to the Dev's for taking negative feedback (and sometimes personal attacks) and finding a way to stay positive, and make adjustments without taking things personally. I imagine that would be hard to do. Dev's need thick skin and I think Bleak and Kyronix did this pub while in Stone Form

    The differences in the publish from version A to C have done well at incorproating feedback. The first version would have ruined pvp, and although I think a few issues remain that can and prob will be eventaully tweaked, none appear to be out of this world unbalancing.

    I encourage the Dev's keep the evaluation process going on origin and then when it hits the other shards the last few issues will likely be adjusted in a month or so. The only delay in feedback is going to be the difficulty attaining the materials to refine suits and I think Shakkara makes many good points on where the publish could be improved.

    Overall very happy with the concept behind the publish, and its execution. Well Done

    Lore's Player
     
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  28. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
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    I will join the thanks Kyronix and Bleak chorus. They did an actually good job with communication and listened to community to improve the whole concept.
    The current state of the publish is quite workable and will bring use to other types of armour.
    Refinements seems to be a rather touchy subject for many, but it doesn't seem to be mandatory, and it can help PvM quite well.
    For PvP, I can't give much input, but it seems to okayish in terms of balance. It will likely be worked a bit more on this point, but the current state at least works, unlike the first concept.
     
  29. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    I still would like to hear the justification of having parry not work on 2-handed balanced weapons. It makes no sense. You are already hampered because you cannot use a shield.

    More chivalry nerfing. Who is it on the dev team that has the objection to nerfing vampiric embrace? Seriously... you keep nerfing everything related to sampires EXCEPT the engine that makes it possible and yet killing other templates along the way. If you want to get rid of sampires, just nerf/remove VE and be done with it.
     
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  30. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Uhh, If you were to pvp solo as I do and fight outnumbered alot you would realize that quite often you get "nuked for a ton of damage quick" so the refresh nerf is quite substantial. What was your point again?

    Your own points have backed up everything I have said about Throwers getting an over the top nerf. Why are you letting your cheerleading get in the way of logic?
     
  31. Picus of Napa

    Picus of Napa Slightly Crazed
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    Could you please give us a break down for the diminishing stam issue? I understand that it doesn't have as large an impact as before but it still has not been explained in a way that actually defines how the dimishing return works.
     
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  32. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Good luck on that.

    I would still like to know who asked for an all-encompassing stamina revamp/nerf?

    I realize they lamely tied it into the armor revamp but wtf?

    What exactly did they tie in that hinders the ability to regen mana if you decide to not bother with refinements?

    What is the mana counter to the divine fury/stam leech/refresh pot nerf if you dont refine?

    Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the whole idea was that if I did not want to refine I could still be status quo? A triple stamina nerf does not seem like status quo to me. Seems like if I dont refine I am farked
     
    #32 Goldberg-Chessy, Apr 13, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2013
  33. budman23

    budman23 Journeyman

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    I just had to say this statement made me LOL!

    All the throwers i have talked to post publish keep asking me if there was a nerf because they couldnt notice it. I then proceed to explain it was balanced and not nerfed,
    but apparently theres always one idiot who cant have a balanced world.
     
    #33 budman23, Apr 13, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2013
  34. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    only non med armor has the LMC - why? Because you can't meditate in it to replenish your mana.
    Leather doesn't have the LMC - if you add mage armor to non med armor you are making it the equivelant of leather - therefore it has the same properties as leather. You can meditate in it, therefore you have no need for the extra LMC.

    In wanting to make the armor medable but keep the properties that compensate for the fact that it isn't medable, you're wanting to 'have your cake and eat it'.
     
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  35. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    I really like Bleak the best. He's more outspoken and speaks in commoner terms for those of us that don't have physics degrees to decode these formulas.

    I also lol at the thrower nerf. So what if their HC is brought back down even to EVERY other warrior. They still have better base resists on suits feeing up more mods, ranged one handed weapons again freeing up MORE mods AND they don't need a ride.
     
  36. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    You do know that Cetric mainly fights alone or with 1-2 other people max right?

    I can tell you plently of stories where it was me Cetric and 1 other person and we fought against 6, 7, 8, 10 other people.
     
  37. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    I am torn on this publish. Maybe it is for the best so the dev's decided to "rip the bandaid off" instead of pulling it off slowly.

    The reason I am torn is because it has "forced" me into other aspects of the game, and maybe that is only tempory. For me this game is about PvP. It isn't about PvM, it isn't about BODS, it isn't about making spread sheets for armor, or anything like that. This publish has forced me to reforge my first item and start playing with that.

    Now I have a list of things I need to start doing to make new suits for PvP. I need to start doing BODs for POF and runics, I need to go to the SA to farm imbuing stuff, I need to farm leather and ingots for BODS, suits and weapons, I need to start thinking about what my new suits will look like. It gives a reason to log in often to accomplish my list of things.

    But I question how long it will last. Will I get pissed off after I turn in 50 BODS and only get 2 POF and stop doing bods? With all the options and choices for building a suit will I get so ticked and say F it I already have limited play time I don't want to waste it looking at excel files? Will the suit I build need so much imbuing crap I get frustated each time I head down to the SA?
     
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  38. Zynia

    Zynia Lore Master
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    Thanks a bunch for the new status bar!! Love it.
     
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  39. Shakkara

    Shakkara Slightly Crazed
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    I want to pay 130 imbue points or a loot slot for the LMC and stamina protection. PAYING FOR IT isn't having the cake and eating it.

    And what about all the items where it IS ALREADY PAID FOR? Like armor of fortune and the rune beetle carapace? Their solution totally messes it up. Tell me why mages can't get the LMC and stamina protection, if they're willing to pay slots (and thus forego other properties) for it?
     
  40. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    You're not seeing it clearly. I will be paying to remove mage armor from items like rune beetle's carapace for my warrior - because they won't have the LMC and stamina loss protection unless I do. There is no armor that has both medability and LMC at base. It's an 'either or' choice. Mage armor cancels out the non-med bonus.

    You can meditate in leather. Therefore you can replenish mana faster than a warrior with no meditation skill. Lower mana cost on warrior armor is to mitigate the inability to meditate, though it won't come close to replenishing a warrior's mana as fast as a mage can do that.
     
  41. Frarc

    Frarc Stratics Legend
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    I will be more then happy to be able to remove mage armor from a item like Heart of The Lion for my warrior. And although t seems that i loose a property on the artifacts with removing mage armor , i am gaining a LMC with it from wearing plate :)
     
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  42. Shakkara

    Shakkara Slightly Crazed
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    So far so good...

    And this makes ZERO sense. NADA.

    You may choose one out of three inherent (FREE) properties: Inherent Mage Armor OR 3LMC/Low Protection OR 1LMC/Great Protection. These properties dont take up slots or whatever, they're just part of the item. For fun I choose platemail thus I get the inherent FREE properties of option 3.

    All additional items properties have a bonus effect (benefit), you pay for this bonus by imbuing points/slots or slots on the loot rolls or the fact that an artifact could have chosen an other property in that slot instead (cost).

    The bonus of mage armor is to grant meditation (and stealth) availability to an item that otherwise hasn't got it. So far so good. You give up an imbuing or loot slot and points (cost), you gain medable/stealthable ability in return (benefit).

    Then the devs decide that mage armor as item property ALSO removes the inherent properties of the item it is applied to. Now wait a minute... I already paid for this property, but now there is an additional cost? Why?

    Same with balanced on 2h weapons. You pay one imbuing slot and points (cost). You gain ability to drink pots (benefit). You lose ability to parry (additional cost) What's wrong with this picture? Right, you pay for a property with ZERO net value.

    If the property has zero net value, then it should be completely free. But it isn't. Mage Armor still takes up an imbuing slot. Balanced takes up an imbuing slot and 50 points. Existing items with mage armor don't get the 130 property weight refunded. And the system doesn't even allow you to put mage armor on most items.

    One big trainwreck of a solution, where it could've been so simple...
     
  43. Frarc

    Frarc Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

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    Things change, Its time to adapt. The things i bought months ago for my suits don't bother me if they loose some function. I'm Very flexible in things.
    Im not someone who keeps living in the past . I like to move one and not go on and on about things that change.
    I build many suits (Simple suits) and will rebuild more if i have too. I don't wonder at every thing I do and gold i spend if this is worth it in the future. At the moment i buy and make things, it is the right thing to do.

    I can't have everything i want and i can't have everything my way. Its the way life works . There will be always things that we are unhappy about. There is nothing wrong to dissagree and discuss things. But keep going on and on about something has no use. Things change, if we like it or not.
     
    #43 Frarc, Apr 14, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2013
  44. Amber Witch

    Amber Witch Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Gilfane

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    three simple realities: nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect.

    wabi-sabi
     
    Lord Frodo likes this.
  45. Shakkara

    Shakkara Slightly Crazed
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    Well and in the end this still is a game I have to pay for, not real life.

    If this is the "quality" of game design I can come to expect for the next updates, it won't just be 'not perfect', instead this game will become downright atrocious.
     
  46. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Ya bud :)

    You must be right and myself and the facts of the nerf must be wrong because you talked to some Throwers?

    You are too funny man.
     
  47. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    I know that Cetric plays a great mage and a thrower named War Machine. I know how he fights and I also know that he hasnt been fighting at the gate for quite some time now(probably gearing up for publish?)

    I also know that his Thrower's only effectiveness is his Disarm.

    Whats your point?