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The buckler named "Moiety", UO plot

Discussion in 'UO White Stag Inn' started by Trebr Drab, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    This is curious, but hardly defined. I just thought I'd throw this out there for you all, just for the sake of curiosity.

    "Moiety" means half of. It usually refers to an equal half, or an opposite half, or a working half.

    Now, doing so brief research on the word, I stumbled across first the word being used in Edgar Allen Poe's "The Pit and the Pendulum". This struck me, as Poe's "The Raven" has been referred to in the past in reference to UO's story. I myself remember finding something that I posted about in reference to "The Raven", but I don't recall what that was as it was several years ago. (Will have to research that a bit and see if I can recall it.)

    Then some possibilities started to fall into place.
    First of all, I believe that the buckler "Moiety" was placed during the Darkscribe era.
    Secondly, the name Darkscribe, it just goes with Edgar Allen Poe's works so well, does it not? A very dark scribe, indeed.

    This Link will take you to a very entertaining flash of a version of "The Pit and the Pendulum". It's a hip-hop version by Flocabulary, and while it's not word for word, it's a much more entertaining way to get the gist of the story. It also has the text of Poe's work on the site page.

    "The Pit and the Pendulum" is a story of injustice, torture, and despairing punishment, ending with unlikely salvation. But think about it all in UO's sense. Edgar Allen Poe's works have always (although rarely) been associated with UO since the first days, the Raven and Minax, etc.
    What about Moiety? Chaos and Order, Lord British and Blackthorn, the Avatar and the Guardian. And think about the epic poem of Poe's, "The Pit and the Pendulum", and think about who might be placed in such a position.

    Is Lord British alive, somewhere in a torture chamber, awaiting salvation?
     
  2. Tangled Metal

    Tangled Metal Lore Master
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    Moiety has been there on most shards for about 4 years, maybe more. It was from the first wave of Event Moderators. Back from when some of those very over powered items were created. This was from when story arcs were repeated on several shards. This is not a new item.
     
  3. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Am I not right?
     
  4. Tangled Metal

    Tangled Metal Lore Master
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    Not sure the exact time but the EM on Origin was Theowulf I believe. I was playing Origin when those events happened. I was just trying to help make it clear that this was a cross shard event item and not shard specific.
     
  5. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Darkscribe was UO's producer before Draconi, not an EM.
    If anything, I'm puzzled why some shards don't have "Moiety" on them. But I know most do.
     
  6. Tangled Metal

    Tangled Metal Lore Master
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    Yes, I know who Darkscribe was. I was trying to get a better time frame as my memory is failing me these days. Guess that happens after over a decade of playing! I think that some shards didn't even have EM's back then which would explain why some shards don't have the shield. There were also EM's that did not create any items for their shards too, they just did events without pixel rewards!
     
  7. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    That could explain it all. The likelihood of an old producer's plot line being carried over, even though these things should be of utmost importance, in UO's production realm is not very likely. In other words, some shards may not have run an event that led to Moiety being locked down, and then Darkscribe goes away, and the plot is forgotten and the buckler just left like so much litter.

    On the other hand, I can't help thinking that these things are not left by accident. That there is a plot line running, although it may be changed at times, but still running and with meaning.

    It's possible that the shards lacking Moiety either failed to accomplish something, or the other way around. This could be a clue. Unfortunately, we players aren't likely to put it together at this point, if so. But who knows?
     
  8. Mapper

    Mapper Crazed Zealot
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    It wasn't in my screenshots at the end of the first EM's in 2004. However its in my screenies the start of 2005 (2nd Batch of EMs). Hopefully that'll help 'when it appeared', Somewhere inbetween 2004-2005, the first and second EMs.
     
  9. Gelf

    Gelf Guest

    not sure of the exact date but believe(on GL) moiety was created when sebastian was EM. i believe he was the first of the new EM's (not sure though)
     
  10. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I'm not up on the RP, but that is an entertaining flash, haha. Oh man, I may have seen it all now ;P. Consequently, I should now end depressing conversations with "****, well you know, if the pit doesn't get ya, the pendulum will, brother."
     
  11. Crysta

    Crysta Babbling Loonie
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    The shield was created.. I believe in the first season of EM events, when the war between Dawn and Blackthorn was raging. I can't remember who owned it previously though.
     
  12. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    It seems that the death of Blackthorn and the exit of Lord British might be related to it in some way, judging only on the timing of it all. It might simply be a symbol of a new direction, the ending of the old and the beginnings of new plots each consisting of a pair of moiety circles.

    It might be very helpful if anyone can remember who owned that buckler, or anything more about it's history. It has to have had meaning, maybe or maybe not relevant anymore.
     
  13. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    That's exactly why I love roleplay. You can create. The challenge is to do it within the world presented in a game like UO, and not go "too far" or outside that world, to do your creating within the confines of that world. And the humor can be exquisite, if you do it right. Much like these guys made entertainment out of Poe's story.
     
  14. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    Lord British entered the Ethereal Void bearing several (but not all) the shards of the Gem of Immortality. So long as once piece remained out of the clutches of evil it could not be reshaped and used for dark purposes.

    We also know that in Ultima Prime the Shadowlords emerge from the Gem of Immortality to possess Astaroth, Nosfentor, and Faulinei. And in Ultima Online the Three were trapped in the Void until we inadvertently released them.

    Is it possible that British mistakenly created or released the Shadowlords (in Ultima Online) by entering the Void with the Gems?
     
  15. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Don't know the answer to that. But as far as Lord British, those aspects of him couldn't have been all of them from all the shards. And we don't know for sure if the one that led that "team" was our Lord British. And I've maintained that that particular British was not like our British in his ethical beliefs. He flatly stated his change, that the shards should go on as separate entities rather than be reunited in what they should be, the one original world. Leaving us with a broken multiverse where time itself is twisted and reality is not, for you can have no reality where there are multiple versions of it like false claims of one truth.
     
  16. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    That’s a stretch Trebr... The shards of UO are the multiverse. Let’s just say the shattering of the gem allowed access to the other Sosarias, each existing in their own parallel universe. Which, if true, would mean the worlds could never be truly united, since they never were to begin with.

    *shrugs*

    This is an aspect of UO where we have to take a modern interpretation of the multiverse and a fantasy RPG with inconsistent history (fiction) and then get them to play nice.

    If "My Story" is to be strictly believed, then the shards are a recursive dimensional fold within a dimensional fold, within a dimensional fold, within a dimensional fold, ad infinitum. Ergo, Sosaria Prime must be frame dragging like crazy - which may be an explanation for its wonky relationship with time.

    Trying to make this work logically is just going to give you a headache, or implode the multiverse. :drool:
     
  17. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Multiverse vs. Universe, m'lady. There are a thousand shards, but just a few Lord British's who took the gathered shards to the Void. Which brings up an interesting question. If something has happened, can it be undone? Can it never have happened?

    You bring up an interesting subject. Perhaps Sutek's madness is the result of his looking upon the whole. Perhaps that was Inu's madness too. And perhaps I myself approach the same for even thinking upon such things.

    But allow me to test your own mettle. Allow me to show you. Look you! Look upon a normal shard...........
    [​IMG]

    And now upon a corrupted shard..........
    [​IMG]

    And allow yourself to ponder the madness of your "Multiverse".
     
  18. Lore Denin (GL)

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    The Buckler "Moiety" belonged to Anon of the Council of Mages. He tossed the shield at the feet of the Ruling Council when he declared his resignation (he was apparently an original member of the Ruling Council perhaps given the post by Lord British before his departure in an attempt to reconcile Britannian and the Council of Mages differences).

    This occured during a universal EM event on all shards and the shield was locked down in the throne room for a long time and appeared to be moved on some shards over time while remaining in place on other shards.

    And Treb and Martyna, no need to worry about the complications of the multiverse and the universe if Lore has his way....

    [IC: Recent coversation between the Chaos Guard Cecil Lionheart and Lore Denin]

    "You understand what you plan is madness. Merging "First Shadow" into the True Universe you will create a chain reaction, like the falling of domino's, destroying the multiverse as each world collapses into the True Universe, destroying all life without form in the true world. What you propose is madness, It is murder on the scale unimaginable. Lore Denin, you are truly as insane as people claim!"

    "The gem's curse is a hard truth. We live in a world that is merely a reflection of reality. Our very existence places the True Universe at great risk and will undo the very fabric of time. A reflection can not sustain when the object that casts the shadow is removed from the light and so all life will be lost when the True Univserse is undone."

    " This is the truth of the reality we live. No amount of denial will change what is; no amount of wishing this were not so, will make it any different. We must stay true to task Lord British bestowed upon us when he formed the Virtue Guard. The very task the Timelord bestowed upon him. We must save the True Universe by destroying the shadowed reflection left by the Gem of Immortality' curse, leaving only truth in its wake. This is the road of Virtue, Order and the greater good. This is my life's mission, why I am here and why I must depart for "First Shadow".

    "Blast you to the Abyss Denin, I will stop you if I have to follow you to the ends of the multiverse to do it! Blackthorn may have made mistakes in his life but opposing this insanity was not one of them!" Cecil turned and stormed out of the room slamming the door behind him.

    Lore shook his head sadly staring at the door, "You follow a sane course, in an insane reality"

    But Cecil Lionheart was long gone and heard none of it.
     
  19. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Lore, what is this "First Shadow"? Is that the first set of shards under the prime world?

    I'm not so sure that there is a "prime world". Each shard may be a prime world hosting all the others as shards within themselves, forming an infinite loop of a set number of shards. That's opposed to the idea that Clainin followed, that each world has a new set of shards in them, and each one within again has a set, and thus an infinite number of shards.
     
  20. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    The other facets (Tokuno, Ilshenar) are not other Sosarias. The Land of Feudal Lords (Tokuno) and Serpents Isle (turn Ilshenar on its side and compare the maps) were other continents that could be sailed to from the Britannian Continent.

    (As for Malas? One of the continent-kingdoms in Ultima 1 was known as Olympus. Considering the Labyrinith is on Malas I don't think it was intended but it can be suggested that Luna and Olympus are one and the same.)
     
  21. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Yes you are very close; from our fictional perspective "First Shadow" is one of the shards that border Ultima Prime.

    To be more exact, it is hypnotized that the Gem of Immortality broke into 31 pieces when it was destroyed by the stranger. All of which contained a total likeness of Sosaria, except for one which was a shard to small to sufficiently capture the magic thus creating a demi plane.

    Translating that into OOC terms, test is the demi plane, and the other production shards (GL, LA, LS Alt, etc) as well as Siege and Mugan make up the first layer of the multiverse which exists on the prime plane. All of these "shards" exist on Earth and were scattered by the stranger in his world. Three of these shards were corrupted by evil and rose as the Shadowlords in the Prime World. The Abyss, Alpha and Beta being the name of the three of those worlds in theory.

    From our character's perspective there are not "servers" but shards buried in the ground, hidden by the stranger, where OOC we understand the servers are located. Thus a one shard was hidden in Australia by the stranger (Ocenia) some in Japan area (Mugan, Yamato, etc) some in Europe (Europa, Drachenfels) and primarily in North America (Pac, Legends, GL, etc).

    Although the Gem was shattered, the magic that held the Gem together continues to connect the shards thus travel through the multiverse to different worlds is possible. A star chart can be created that maps out the multiverse, which when lain over a map of the earth will show all the Prime shard locations.

    The theory of first shadow follows that current of magic, like the Gem's concept of Immortality, flows in a linear direction. That among the 27 remaining shards, one is the binding source among them.

    OOC: Origin is that world because the nature of the world changes there first, and then follows to the other shards i.e. patches and updates. The worlds are not completely independent as was once believed. Common themes and events occur in each land that defies logic if the lands were not connected in some way. We followed the current of magic from the world it stems - Origin. If the Prime World is the Source, then Origin is its "First Shadow."

    It is therefore theorized that instead of merging the remaining 27 shards that exist in the prime Universe independently, which we once believed, it only requires the merging of "First Shadow" with the prime to cause a chain reaction that will cause the collapse of the multiverse with all the worlds and all the shards within all those worlds following the origin into the Prime World.

    Remember this is all fiction based on fiction that is neither completely consistent nor fully explained. OOC there is no real truth, and IC there are only our character interpretations and belief's about the truth. Regardless of how convinced my character is that this is how it is, OOC I fully understand that there are a 1001 different interpretations on how things can and do work. That is what makes rping in UO a great deal of fun.

    -Lore's Player

    PS: Does anyone have a link to an old UO story that actually takes place on the Prime Plane. Its a conversation between the stranger, Nystul and LB about the gathering of the shards and hidding them on earth. To my knowlege it is one of the only UO pieces from EA that comes from the Prime perspective.
     
  22. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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  23. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Er.. We weren't talking about facets, just shards.. Facets are another kettle of mutant fish.

    And I completely agree that Ilshenar is the Lands of Danger & Despair all squished into one landmass.

    Ter Mur technically isn't a facet either, but another world somehow connected through the Stygian Abyss. Though one could argue that it IS the Lands of the Dark Unknown.
     
  24. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Lore, that's an interesting take on it. Very different.
    I question if there are some holes in the basis though. I'm not sure. Is there anything that points to any of the beings from "Ultima" ever actually traveling to Earth? Other than the Stranger/Avatar, of course, who merely returned. Even Minax, I'm still doing some research, but did she ever travel to Earth in her efforts to destroy it and thus the Stranger? Or did she work strictly out of her Castle out of time?

    Regardless, it's imaginative and well done from that angle. And quite bold as far as the politics of the UO roleplayer, who've come up with a consensus for roleplay purposes. But then, I've bucked that to some smaller degree as well. I think it's important to keep the "consensus", but also to keep it open enough that we don't get tied down to something that may be wrong. I also think the Devs need enough room to tell us how it is, and not necessarily be restricted to what "we" think. It's a tough job for them to come up with "what is" without breaking things. I loved that Draconi spent a lot of time training people just for this. I hope to my core that that hasn't been lost.
     
  25. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

     
  26. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    I misread your post.

    I've always interpreted Malas as being the Land of Dark Unknown; The Acropolis of Luna and the Labyrinith being prime canidates for the remnants of Olympus.

    Umbra is a whole other can of worms. I like to think of it as the Copic descendants of a race of Pyramid Builders; and tend to assign fictional traits drawn from the Lovecraft Mythos and the Necronomicon to them. But that is my own fiction. It makes sense that they might descend from the inhabitants of the Castle of the Black Dragon.
     
  27. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    I don't think we've come to a consensus. The mythologies and themes of each shard are vastly different; each roleplaying community on its own having come to fill in the gaps.
     
  28. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    We see him doing something to the Gem, and can only assume what it is.

    One could reason, since the gem is now clear, it is no longer the Sun Ruby Gem that Mondain killed his father to possess, but is, in fact, now the Gem of Immortality. Thus, Sosaria is already bound to its power and Mondain's will.

    As for the Gem darkening.. I rewatched the opening movie and am still going with old CGI as the culprit here. The Gem itself never darkens, but the room around it does. The planet inside never dims.

    Same for the shards. It’s just how the camera moves through the scene and the way the fragments interact with the dark floor. You want to see them dim because it makes sense since the advent of Siege and Mugen. But those shards didn't happen till well after the movie was created, they weren't even a twinkle in Garriot's or the Dev Team's (of the time) eye.

    It does make a good story, however. Just be careful trying to massage ancient fiction into today's understanding of UO lore. Sadly, not everything was forward thinking back then, and Mythic has already admitted to being less than perfect when it comes to past metafiction.




    I think everyone can agree on this point.




    His Kilrathi laser blaster? His spilled cocktail? His 12yo lover, Minax? Who knows... This was probably more a case of clichéd villain death scene than a meaningful easter egg.

    Again, let’s not read into things too much. Wild geese and all...
     
  29. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    If UO has a piece of Poe running through its veins, I would like to see razor wielding Orang-utans introduced to the game! Rideable if poss please.
     
  30. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    "You want to see them dim because it makes sense since the advent of Siege and Mugen."
    No, in fact I don't even know what you are getting at with that.

    It's not a case at all of me massaging things to get what I want. I am pointing out all the things that factually line up. The Sun Ruby Gem did in fact turn black according to the Ultima history when Mondain bound it to himself. It does in fact turn dark, "black", in the movie. You say it's just because of the light, but if that were the case, why does the shard the Stranger holds at the end look much darker than the Sun Ruby Gem earlier?

    Of the shattered shards lying on the floor at the end, there are 4 larger shards. The rest in that scene are smaller, more out of shape and long, where you might expect the versions of Sosaria within to be vastly misshapen to the point of not even having a complete Britannia within. Or stretched so far out of shape that the lands wouldn't seem the same at all. They've given us a possible answer here. "Wayward Shards". Yet, of the 4 shards that seem uniform enough to hold Sosaria's like our own shards, as the scene moves and you say the lighting causes the darkness, 2 remain constantly dark throughout the scene. One remains constantly light. And one changes from light to dark as we watch. If it were the lighting, would they not all behave the same?

    It's certainly a debatable subject. But the other evidence, provided by the Ultima lore, gives my proposition a lot of support, I think.

    You also mention that the Sun Ruby Gem is clear, so maybe it's actually already been changed to the Gem of Immortality.
    First, let me point out that the Sun Ruby Gem was already magicked, it already held the power of immortality even as Mondain's father Wolfgang had it. Yet somehow Mondain killed his father and took the Gem. Or maybe it was the other way around, that Mondain took the Gem and then killed his father. So, it's quite possible the any redness had already been changed to clearness. Rubies are, after all, red versions of Sapphires (which are any other color than red of the exact same mineral as rubies).
    At any rate, according to the lore and the Ultima game, the Stranger caught Mondain in the past, exactly when he was binding the Gem to himself. So this is exactly when this happened in the movie.
     
  31. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Meaning, you are seeing what you want to see based on the need to make sense of the movie. Since we have two 'dark shards' now, subconsciously you want that to make sense.



    *sigh* It’s because its low quality CGI. The gems do not get appreciably darker. When we first see the Gem, it is emitting light. When we see she shards scattered on the floor with the Stranger standing over them, they are all glowing.

    The shard he picks up in the end shows his chainmail glove through it, and is no longer glowing. This is more likely a flub in the animation, or they found that the one glowing in his hand looked crappy, than a far-reaching clue to the nature of the UO reality.

    Sorry Trebr, but Garriot & Co. weren’t that clever - and they never expected UO to last even a few years.




    Again, seeing what you want to see here because it DOES make sense. Shard size wouldn't make a difference, however, as crystals can hold an inordinate amount of 'information.' That is trying to massage the movie into modern thought...





    Sorry, no. The lighting in the scene isn't a bank of ceiling-mounted halogens, its flames. Flame is an inconsistent light source emitting a variable amount of lumens based on what it is consuming. You perception of light will also vary on how close you are to the light source, thus with the camera moving through the scene the quality of the light and its refraction through the crystals will change. It’s also a low quality CGI movie, for which no additional fiction was ever provided.




    Yes, it’s obviously already the Gem of Immortality and already bound to Mondain... The narrator even says so.


    At any rate, this makes a good story, and is even plausible. But let’s get realistic here; UO hasn’t had an over-arching meta plot in more than a decade. It’s had metafiction plots that’s have loosely tied into one another, but never a plot that’s run the entire course of the game - even the ‘uniting of the shards’ was pretty much dropped in ’03.
     
  32. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    No, Martyna, we have three dark shards. 3. One of which we saw go dark before our very eyes. Time on each shard can be at different rates, but shards within a shard have been documented to move faster in time than their host shard. We only saw the last of those 3 shards turn black.

    From The Nature of Shadows:

    The agents of the Shadowlords moved freely amongst the common people, subverting their will with insidious guile. Their earliest attacks had taken a toll on the will to fight, and now the very people of Britannia were becoming part of their own downfall. Every day the Shadowlords themselves grew stronger, preparing for the day they could convert the world into yet another dark jewel in their ever expanding collection of conquered shards.

    Worlds without number had fallen thus far, and now, this shard too would be stained with the darkness eternal. A few, a precious few, strove to fight back against this dying of the light. Hope had returned in our future leader Dawn, a savior in times beyond saving, who began rallying the faithful for our final stand.
    These three shards in the movie represent the 3 Shadowlords. The first three shards of their conquests.

    On a side note, from the quote above...
    Worlds without number had fallen thus far...​


    I hadn't caught this before. This seems to prove that there are not a finite number of shards. In that case, there has to be "shards within shards", and not a finite 1,000 shards linked to each other via shards within their own worlds, as I always wondered.

    Also from that link:
    Amongst the chaos one man had sought out the secrets of the Shadowlords, willing to sacrifice anything to discern their true nature: to learn how to defeat them once and for all.

    Nae, there is another! :scholar:
     
  33. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    No Trebr, we did not. I've had other people look at the video to make sure I wasn’t missing something or that my version of the video wasn't somehow corrupt. Nobody else saw your darkening shards, just light passing through the Gem fragments changing as the camera moved. No world going dark, no shards turning black.

    The quality of the light changes, that is all. You are the only one seeing shards go ''dark". Rail against that reality all you want, spin it to fit your 'facts' all you want - that doesn't change the reality that NONE of the shards EVER go dark in the movie.

    If a shard 'went dark' as you claim, WHY are all the shards on the floor glowing after Mondain is dead and while the Stranger is looking into the one in his hand? How can something "dark" glow with a white light?

    You want to see the shards darken because it DOES fit in with the fiction 13 years later.




    Hence the recursive issue I spoke of earlier. Each shard has another X number of shards inside it. This would make the number of shards increase exponentially with each 'layer' of worlds. Ergo, there are an infinite number of shards
     
  34. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    "What are you doing?"

    "I"m casting Magic Missile"...


    sorry, couldn't resist, and I know this offers nothing to this thread, but it's become a conversation between the 3 of you....
     
  35. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    You mean like this?

    [​IMG]

    I was on this years ago with my Black Necklace story. Most of those images I've posted above came from that story, which I have on my web site.
     
  36. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    One of my biggest regrets in MMO gaming is that very few want to join in on these kinds conversations. I fear any semblance of this sort of "story" or "plot" is going to go completely away, and all we'll have left is level/item grind with nothing but an afterthought for lore.

    My thanks to Martyna for debating this with me. I always come away wondering if anyone else payed any attention, because I don't know from the lack of posts. (Or maybe I do, sadly.)

    Edit to add:
    In my opinion this is the most artistic and impressive story ever, in any gaming. Mainly because it's got so much depth and mystery to it while being in a massive online game, and carried through for years. More than that, it's based on the previous games that people played, and debated every bit as much as we are here.
    It's not really that "deep", it's really pretty simple. It's just hidden so well among all the opinions. I mean, after all these years, we still debate if there are shards within shards in infinity (for sure) or a finite number of shards. But the Developers of Ultima had to know the answer to this, and the initial Devs of UO also had to. I'm not real sure about the succeeding Devs.
     
  37. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Yes, that is a good example. Obviously some shards shed more light then others due to size, but none are dark or black.

    As to the Shadowlords darkening shards, they didn't appear until Ultima V in the main timeline. How could the Shadowlords conquer shards several hundred years before they were ever seen/created in cannon history, let alone in a world without the Avatar to 'open the door' as it were?

    It’s never been explained exactly what the Shadowlords are aside from the paragons of the Anti-Principles. Are they part of what the Avatar shed from himself during Ultima IV, thus possibly aspects of the Guardian? (Which was supposed to be the case per the original arc of Ultima VII-IX) Or are they a primal force simply given a name and a hooded robe?

    Per the cannon Ultimas (via the Ultima Wikia):
    "When the Gem of Immortality was shattered by the Stranger, three big shards of it went missing. Each of the shards opposed one of the Principles. The shards ended up in the Underworld, but they were safe until the ship The Ararat, under Captain Johne, was sucked into the Underworld through a Whirlpool. Johne found the shards, and they drove him to temporary madness. He slew his three companions, and their blood fell on the shards. From it, the Shadowlords were born."
     
  38. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Well, we'll just have to disagree on the black/white thing (of course, heh).

    That wikia entry is interesting. So the Shadowlords came from the shards in question, not the other way around. I don't recall ever seeing that the companions of Johne bled on the shards. And I've read the story, maybe I just missed it.
    If that's accurate (and that site has always looked very accurate), then it gives us an approach for this.

    You know, I agree that it may not matter at all, in any way. But I don't know that it doesn't either. I hope it does. I hope actual game play comes out of all this. The only thing I know for sure, is that if we don't ever show any interest, they (the Devs) probably won't either.
     
  39. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Well, I've seen you in game all of twice in recent years... You could come out and play more, rejoin GLRP. I don't think anyone will try to kill you, not right away at least.. :gee:

    I live directly south of the Yew moongate in Trammel... Library of Sosaria complex.. Come say Hi.




    They've shown enough interest to 'fix' some of the gaping plot holes from part 3 of Lost & Found. I'm willing to hope that wasn't just a one-time thing, and hope they pay more attention to the past as their fiction continues.
     
  40. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    Sort of joining late in the conversation here, but figured, awe heck, why not. :)

    The issue with the shards is an interesting one, and really, up until Lord British returned to Britannia to collect the Shards of the Gem of Immortality, we only had vague hints about the recursive nature of the shards we live in. In fact, I had several in-character debates about it, and had always supported the recursion theory wherein the events that occurred on the day the gem shattered caused the recursion. Others believed we were inside a shard, but that no shards existed within.

    Of course, my argument went something like this: We know -- from in-game fiction -- that the shards of the Gem of Immortality exist. The ONLY way for us to know that they exist is for that event to have occurred here within our shard. The fact that we know that the Gem of Immorality even existed, and that it shattered -- regardless of never actually having seen at that point a shard -- indicates clearly that the shards must exist within; otherwise, what shattered, and how do we know about it anyway? Thus, at the moment of the Shattering, the Gem of Immortality was torn assunder, Sosaria was bound within, and each of our little pocket universes were created -- but they were created at the exact moment of the Shattering, and so within each of our worlds, the Gem of Immortality that was in the process of Shattering shattered. Of course, this goes on ad infinitum because within each of our shattered gems were likenesses of Sosaria that were bound to our gems whose gems were also shattered.

    We're left with two potential outcomes. That the Shattering does, indeed, go on forever, and is infinitely recursive, OR that the Shattering at some point ceased to be recursive because the magic of the spell in progress went beyond its own limitations, and so somewhere in the recursion mess we have Sosarias that did not have their Gem of Immortality shattered (presuming, of course, we grant for the possibility that the combined sum of the force of the magic behind the Gem of Immortality's binding at some point expires).

    This leaves us with an interesting paradigm: That somewhere within our worlds within those worlds (and who knows where exactly the recursion would cease to be if, indeed, it ever did) the Gem of Immortality is yet whole, and fates only know what happened in those worlds after The Stranger slew Mondain -- did Mondain die; did the Stranger fail; what is life like in Sosaria Subinfinite? And how many Subinfinites exist?

    Of course, barring that theory, then we have a horrible case of recursion that goes on forever and ever and ever. As to whether Lord British could have collected all of them, well, who really knows? The one on our individual shards indicated he was meeting up with others, and we physically saw him join with others, so perhaps the others that came to meet with him joined with him, and then he joined with others, so on and so forth.

    Of course, we're left with the Time Lord's warning to Lord British that the shards must someday be reunited (if at all possible) to preserve Sosaria Prime; of course, as players, we know Sosaria's ultimate fate at the hands of the very Stranger who was there at the beginning of this mess, and the world there sort of progresses on just fine (if you can call the end of Ultima IX "just fine"). We do know, however, that Sosaria was always fated to be destroyed -- at least Sosaria Prime. For the very words of the movie we're watching in this thread (which, I'm in the "it's the lighting" camp, not the "they went dark" camp) begin with "During the span of the Age of Darkness found in the writings of only the most aged of manuscripts lived a world born of mystic arts and ancient sorcery." The very nature of those words indicate "There was, long ago, a world... that no longer exists." Which, from Ultima IX we know to be true; we also know that Ultima X's canon was intended to be that Sosaria had ceased to be, and from Lords of Ultima that Sosaria has indeed been destroyed. Ultimately the questions become "Was this preventable?" "Was this solely due to the Stranger/Avatar's and the Guardian's influences on Sosaria?" or "Was this because the recursion within the Gem of Immortality was never cured?"

    Above and beyond all of this, there's the suggestion that time travel could cure Sosaria of the situation it is now in. The truth of that, however, is that it clearly could not. First and foremost, because if someone from the future went to the past to stop the Shattering, the gem would not shatter, and then there would be no reason for anyone from the future to go and stop the shattering; since no one then went from the future to the past to stop the Gem from shattering, it, of course, then shatters. This -- in a fancy step up from the simple infinite recursion we have going on with Sosaria at present -- is what we call temporal recursion. Sure, time travel mythos have toyed with things like this, and even used things like Time Lords to bend or break the "rules" of time and fix these very things -- often with the line, "Nature will correct itself." But consider this: If a time lord was capable of fixing this particular problem via time travel, why then would the Time Lord need Lord British's help at all? Couldn't he simply travel back in time to fix it? Since he did not, it suggests then that he could not. (Of course, we could also blame this on "plot contrivance" or "plot convenience" because, well, it wouldn't be very profitable for EA to allow the shards to be recombined via time travel, because how would they get your $9.99 - $12.99 per month if they just let some Time Lord go whilly nilly and fix this problem?)

    Of everything theorized here, the only thing we actually know for 100% certain is that shards of the Gem of Immortality did, indeed, exist within each shard (at least of the primary shards that came from the original Ultima Prime shattering) because Lord British came into the shards and collected them and ran off with them.

    Everything else... well... that's all "wibbly wobbly, timey wimey."
     
  41. Sarsmi

    Sarsmi Grand Poobah
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    Nothing to add to the amazingly in-depth debate about Ultima lore you guys have going on, just to add that GM Zilo created Moiety and I think he got a kick out of having such a fabulous shield locked down and out of reach of player hands, if not eyes. ;)
     
  42. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Going back to this for a moment.

    First of all, in regards to dark and light shards, it's not important. My whole point is that the movie represents the story. The 3 dark shards I claim, they are just representations for the sake of the story, for inspiration maybe. We already know that there are 3 Shadowlords, we already know that they are somehow connected to 3 dark shards, we already know that they are trying to "darken" more shards, and we already know that they are doing this to take over each shard one by one.
    (Is this correct?)

    What we don't know is how they do so, and why.

    It seems to me that the Shadowlords are the ultimate villain in our shards. The Guardian is locked out, and they are trying to bring him to our shards.
    (Again, is this correct?)

    Again, how? The why seems to be that that's how a shard is felled into darkness. Agreement or not?

    If the story of the Shadowlords being created from the blood of Capt. Johne's companions onto a black shard is correct, then doesn't this give us a means to defeat the Shadowlords? By destroying those black shards? This would not destroy them completely, but rather "lock them out" of our individual shards. But by doing so, in just 1 shard, their entire goal of turning all shards to darkness is defeated.

    Edit to add:
    And it just struck me. The Black Necklace that was prevalent in earlier times in UO. In the end, Odric took it. He was later revealed as a Shadowlord. Could that black stone in the Necklace have been his own personal Black Shard? (Which Shadowlord was he, anyways? It might reveal something about the powers of that necklace, and how it affected Juo'Nar. and why Minax was involved with it.)
     
  43. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    That's some interesting comments, Ra'Dian.

    Going back in time may not be possible due to time itself being broken in the Shattering of the Gem of Immortality. However, we know from the Ultima games that afterwords, Minax had her castle "outside of time". A dimension that I assume may be the same place that the Stranger went to confront Mondain and slay him. What that might mean? I haven't a clue.

    The idea that at some point the infinite expansion of shards within shards was stopped. Interesting!
    It's not possible that on a recursive shard, that the Gem didn't shatter, for whatever reason.
    What we call chance isn't really. If you cast the dice on a table and get a given result, that result is because of physics. If you pick the die up again, and then throw them exactly the same, hold them exactly the same, throw them exactly the same at the exact same point on the table, with exactly the same force, and all other things are the same, even the minutest of things like air current and pressure, then you will get the exact same results.

    So too, when the Gem was shattered, that was the start of it all. All things leading up to the shattering were the exact same. Not just a repeat of the exact same happenings, they were the exact same happening. Therefore, the Gem had to shatter on each shard just the same.

    The only way to stop it from happening would be for someone to go back in time and prevent it. But to do that, they'd have to go back to the prime time, the single time, before it happened. That's not possible, because in that time before the shattering, if it were stopped, there would be no shards at all.

    The only possibility at all here is that, should the Shadowlords defeat a shard and turn it to darkness, and then reunite all of that shards' shards, in that world, that shard, the infinite recursion has been stopped. Fixed. But fixed to darkness. And that's what I think is the story, the threat we on our shards face.
     
  44. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Is the future written in stone? Ultima X was never even made and UO is the only current living ultima. Is it possible that the characters in this multiverse have the ability to change the outcome of the written future of Ultima Prime by doing exactly what the Timelord asked of Lord British? Prob not, but that isn't going to stop my character from believing he can or stop trying to do exactly that. Its the reason I created and play the character Lore Denin.

    -OOC you have told me many times that this is not possible, just like finding the shards of the gem of immortality and just like sherry the mouse actually existing... Yet those things became possible and now exist in game.

    The possiblity of what can happen is now in the creative hands of EA Mythic. There is no limit to what they can do with UO/Ultima Prime and its future (as far as I can tell from the sale of Origin to EA)... Including rewriting Prime based on the success or failure of the uniting the shards within the ultima online multiverse. We have accepted time travel to change the future within a single game, is it a stretch to accept that we are playing in the present that will effect that future change and rewrite what has happened in another. In fact one might argue it has already happened we just don't know it yet?

    I am the first to admit that this is an unlikely scenerio but from an OOC marketing perspective its gives options to continue the ultima prime series and merge UO multiverse into an ultima prime fiction, by reworking Ultima 10 and UO2 into a single, mmrpg that sees Sosaria Prime continue. That is just my personal view on the way I would like to see ultima and UO continue into the future. UO can't live on expansions and upgraded clients forever, a new generation game will one day need to replace it, or UO will have to be simply have to be let go.

    -Lore's Player
     
  45. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    Definitely not trying to change anyone's IC perspective on anything, simply offering up my theories on things as they go. However, UO is not the only living Ultima. Obviously Lord of Ultima's existence doesn't necessarily reflect the reality as regarding the Sosaria's that were bound within the Gem of Immortality, but, if you click "About," you get a small tidbit about the game that includes:

    So at least in the time that Caledonia exists, Sosaria's at least gone, potentially destroyed -- of course, one could as easily argue that it continues to exist, shattered itself in some fashion. Clearly, something devastating has occurred on Sosaria though.

    Actually, given that a lot of our roleplay surrounded what would happen if the shards were found, I'd say my comments surrounded the unlikelihood that EA would ever put them in game. Ironically, we don't really know what "shard of the gem of immortality" any of us who got them from the Shadowlords even have. Are they shards of the Gem that shattered, which Lord British took away? Or are they shards of a new Gem the Shadowlords hoped to use? Were they shards of the real Gem that they hoped to fuse together? Again, we sort of don't know, but we do know that there is a likeness of Sosaria inside, and each possessor determines how the world within lives.

    No stretch at all... But I suspect future Ultimas will never relive the glory of Ultima Prime nor will we likely ever see anything remotely based on Sosaria and Ultima Online or Ultima Prime either. Obviously, who knows... but right now, the only Sosarian Ultima we have is UO. Maybe that'll change someday... of course, two canceled "sequels" later (though UXO wouldn't have been Sosarian either), I don't have high hopes for a fully 3D UO -- and I'm not exactly holding my breath about the NetDragon project. hehe

    Personally, I'd like to just see them give UO a fully 3D client, clean up some of the gameplay issues, and expand it for the future. The problem I perceived with both UXO and UWOO were that they were nothing like Ultima Online in the sandbox vein. They were both more akin to trying to compete with the other 3D worlds out there at the time. SWG shows us we could have a UO in full 3D with the custom detail and sandbox orientation... housing included... but I suspect no one exists at EA, BioWare Mythic, or elsewhere with the vision to take a chance on a fully 3D UO at this point.

    NetDragon could prove me wrong. And if it does, I hope it blows me out of the water.
     
  46. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    Of course, we're not discussing reality here, which is what births the potential for the theory. Now mind you, none of my characters at present (those who care... some are busy with mundane life, some could care less, some are... less than virtuous...) is in the camp of an end to the recursion, and the only three that I play regularly all believe the recursion is infinite.

    But here's the thing... magical power comes from a source. The source event is the one on Sosaria Prime. Sure, we can argue the state of quantum mechanics that could be involved in a physical reality where magic exists; or we can argue that since the event occurred once and we know it occurred inside as well as outside the gem that the event is instantaneously infinite. However, we could argue that while a huge amount of magical power was coursed into the Shattering that the power involved was indeed finite. Thus in Sosaria Prime, the gem shattered, and we'll pick an arbitrary number (42... I like 42), into 42 shards. At this point, the magic of the spell is still overwhelming, and so within each of those 42 shards, the 42 gems also shattered -- arguably because the exact same event was transpiring, and yet, would this event have its own energy or draw from the Prime event? -- and spills over into the next layer. So now we have 42x42 shards of the Gem of Immortality. Each subsequent shattering would continue to be exponential to the previous one, which would increase the magical energy required to continue the event. Again, we must ask, since it has begun infinite recursion, is the Prime event's energy also duplicated in each recursion, or is it finite and eventually going to wear out?

    Essentially, just because it's magic doesn't mean it's unlimited.

    Well, except that they weren't. One thing was different on each and every subsequent shattering. In Sosaria Prime, nothing new was created, that is to say the gem shattered, but Prime's existence didn't come to be due to the shattering. However, the main difference is that within each likeness of Sosaria, the event is slightly different because the gem shattered. While this might not be tangible to those within the event horizon, it certainly is tangible within the recursion effect.

    Well, again, this is where time travel goes all wonky. There's two potential camps (and probably more, but two primary anyway) wherein going back in time to stop the shattering would, indeed, stop it, and whatever occurred would be wiped from future, though obviously it would still have occurred in the first place. But in essence it's a "balance mechanism" of time that would fix the error, and things would progress forward naturally -- and yes, this means that internally our characters would simply cease to be (a potential scenario for the day the servers die).

    The other camp is the temporal recursion camp that I explained in my previous post wherein an action caused by another can't possibly succeed in preventing that initial action because precluding that initial event precludes that someone would attempt to stop that initial action -- if it is stopped, and the reason it stopped is because someone went back in time to stop it, then since it never happened, no one would go back to stop it; since it wasn't stopped, it happened, and someone went back to stop it, which meant that it wasn't stopped because it never happened, infinitum ad nauseum.

    Well, and here's where we have to question, is it even possible to reunite the shards anymore? What would be reunited -- for good and virtue -- would be an incomplete vision of the whole. What would that produce?
     
  47. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Ra'Dian, yes, the "Grandfather Paradox". If you go into the past and kill your grandfather before your father is born, you are never born. Therefore, you don't exist to go back in time and kill your grandfather.

    You're suggesting that the magic wears down in strength with each recursion. Eventually weakening to the point that it's not strong enough to shatter the Gem. Certainly a possibility, and something to look for answers to.

    You asked if it's even possible to unify the shards anymore. On our shards because LB took the "wayward shards" to the Void? For us on our shards, we'd have to get those back and collect all the others. Unless there's some means to unify the shards without having them present, which is a possibility too.
    But if such a thing is possible, no matter how improbable, in each string of infinite recursions it must eventually happen. Making that the end of that string, and on every string this must at some point happen. Thus, there would be no infinite recursion, just a very long line of recursions in some and fewer in others.
     
  48. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Here is where quantum mechanics, the multiverse and Philosophy merge.. the 'What if?' of paradox.

    The grandfather paradox is theoretically possible because by the very nature of 'coming back in time from the future', you've already altered that past and thus creating a separate universe/timeline for your current track to follow. This is also where your head threatens to explode if you think about it too long.

    The original shattering happened in Sosaria Prime, that event didn't 'happen' per se in the recursive shards, its effects did. At the exact picosecond the Gem of Immortality was shattered by the Stranger is when the shards (pocket universes, recursive realities, etc.) sprung into existence. Those shards, with untold generations of 'daughter shards,' moved forward from that point to be what they are today - sans Stranger/Avatar.

    The task of reuniting the shards, if the recursion is infinite, would be impossible. How do you collect an infinite number of objects? How would the shards be collected on a Shard that was conquered by evil?

    This is where the current UO fiction breaks down if we poke at it too much. UO was never meant to last 13 years and its creators never thought to address issues such as these. So we get to.
     
  49. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Martyna, there are not an infinite number of shards on an individual shard. The infinity comes from the shards within shards. You can gather the total number of shards on a shard, or on the prime world. By doing so, you also have in your possession all the shards within those shards.

    If there's a way to combine all those shards you hold on your shard, speculating here, I would assume you've also combined all the shards within those shards (now 1 shard on your shard) by the same magical power.
     
  50. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    I understand that, and it also had nothing to do with what I was saying... The infinite number of shard comes from the recursive nature of the Shattering itself. Each layer exponentially adds to the total number of shards in existence. So while each individual shard may have ‘42’ in total, that layer could have 130,691,232 shards cumulatively. Thus ensues the nightmare.



    That is an assumption, and not a particularly logical one. You'd have possession your Shards's shards, not possession of your Shard's daughter shard's shards. (Ugh, that’s a mouthful) Especially if one of those shard's shards were corrupt...

    The goal the Timelord set before Lord British was to merge all the shards to save Sosaria Prime. Lord British went into the void with his other selves to merge what they had. Presumably this was somehow outside the Shard's influence, i.e. somewhere in the Void of the Prime Universe.



    This is another assumption, and doesn't really mesh well with the recursive nature of the shards within shards concept. We could take all the shards present on GL, and 'merge them' (however that is done) and still be missing the shards taken by Lord British. We could also be completely obliterating the peoples on those shards because they have yet to merge their shards, or we could be hosing ourselves completely.

    The merging should start at the end of the tree as it were, which if it is infinite would never be possible.

    If we don't care about the life that’s on the shards, then why haven't we combined them already - or rather, why hasn't Lord British? (other than the fact that would end UO)