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The Concept of Game Expansion

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Helfgrim, Jun 12, 2009.

  1. Helfgrim

    Helfgrim Guest

    I've been following a lot of the threads on Stygian Abyss, and more often than not I am seeing new content for a new race. In my opinion a game expansion is supposed to offer new content for the characters I've been playing for years. I started playing in 1999, and most expansions have offered just was I was looking for; new things to do, new things to craft and new ways to decorate my home.

    With Mondain's Legacy, the Elf only content was a put off, it was only armor and clothing, but paying for a game expansion where I wasn't going to use part of the content felt like a waste of money, and for a long time I didn't bother with the expansion till I actually found a reason to play an elf, and had an extra character slot to make one. My original five slots were dedicated to humans with years of rp and back story that didn't include magically becoming an elf.

    I see a repeat of this scenario happening in Stygian Abyss but to a greater degree. Now whole skills being added for the limited use of one race, a new race. My long lived characters who are intelligent and in many cases very well skilled in combat, are not able to learn to throw. Special bonuses from mysticism I can understand to a degree as the skill originating with the race, however even if my characters are not physically able to use the "gargoyle throwing weapons" I assure you they can pick up a dagger and throw it, they've been using the dart boards for years, or an axe or any other bit of metal forged to be thrown by a master smith.

    My point is I want a game expansion to expand my already long lived and well traveled characters, I don't want to derail their stories by having to create a new one, or to have to find some bizarre reason for them to become a gargoyle. I've spent years developing the characters I have and want to expand the game for them and I don't see a point in spending money on an expansion that limits how I can do that.
     
  2. Grumm

    Grumm Guest

    So you're upset you can't use the Throwing skill unless you're a Gargoyle? At least that's how I am understanding your post.

    Only one skill was added that is Gargoyle only.
     
  3. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    You know what, it took me a while, but i can completely agree with the poster. You have to put yourself in his place, he is a RPer. His humanoid chars get nothing new besides a new land to check out. For him it is not as simple to just make a gargoyle and go yay new race!

    Personally id love to see a 9th circle of spells for magery, maybe an additional one or two chiv/necro spells. Stuff like that would be kinda neat.
     
  4. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I am a role-player too.

    Personally "nothing new besides a new land to check out" sounds like a lot to me.

    I'm not wild on race-specific content, but it is justifiable.

    I will not make a gargoyle character, in all likelihood.

    I am, however, definitely looking forward to the expansion.

    Especially if its approach makes them finally advance the event cycle we're currently in, beyond relying upon Event Moderators who differ widely in quality.

    -Galen's player
     
  5. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I am looking forward to the new expansion for different reasons. Sure I will probably turn one of my characters "gargoyle" maybe 2 at the most... but I'm looking forward to imbuing...

    I also want new housing tiles... I'm dying to do some more deco and design....

    I'm hoping beyond hope as well that the new expansion and client prove to be the best of both worlds...

    Then beyond that I'm seriously hoping that after all is said and done the DEV's will have time to get back to bug fixes, improvements in loot tables, PvP, and stopping cheats.
     
  6. Whinemaker

    Whinemaker Guest

    I agree with the OP.

    While I understand that it's a business and a lot of elf-only content was probably needed to lure people into purchasing the upgrade, I don't see why they couldn't make something human-only that requires ML to equip/enter/tame as well, to balance things out.

    I still think the last upgrade gave all human male chars a disadvantage.
     
  7. Grumm

    Grumm Guest

    Don't get me wrong. Most storylines in online games are driven by RPers, but I feel he is unjustly upset.

    In the OPs first paragraph they list the things they like in a expasion, all of which this one offers. There will be new things to do, craft and ways to transform your house into something completly new.

    Non Gargoyles will be able to Imbue, use Mysticism and explore the new landmass, of which is the largest land addition since the introduction of Trammel. Trammel was more of a copy and paste job though.

    The OP has already deemed this expansion unworthy of purchase even though it offers everything they are looking for in an expansion as stated in their first paragraph.

    The only limiting thing is this expansion is the Throwing skill. There is a wealth of other things any RPers can expand their charater lore with. I guess I am confused as to why the OP is upset if it is offering exactly what they are looking for in an expansion.
     
  8. Helfgrim

    Helfgrim Guest


    Perhaps I should have been more clear, previous expansions have offered these things to all players for all players. My smith will now be able to craft armor none of my characters will ever where, therefore why is my smith going to bother making them when no one else asks him to forge armor for them?

    As expansions have progressed, introducing exclusive material has been a focus, rather than expanding on what old characters can already do. I am disappointed in the exclusivity as a trend in expansions, and foresee it becoming more and more prevalent in the future. Just expressing that disappointment, as the topic has come up this week regarding throwing in particular but also some of the other gargoyle only content.
     
  9. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    Well, I don't see it that negative (although I'd rather seen a Seafaring Expansion, hehe). Most of the SA content is available to ALL players. I, too, won't create a Gargoyle character. I also never played an Elf. I won't be able to learn throwing. So what? It's not much different from archery. If you want ranged attacks, you have a wide range of bows to choose from. The new crafting skills will be available for humans as well. Gargoyles will have a slight bonus, but I think I can live with that. I probably never will unravel or imbue anything. Legacy crafting is good enough for me. I won't be able to fly. So what? Riding a mount is exactly the same thing.

    I expect the biggest innovation in the new expansion to be the Stygian Abyss dungeon and the new landmass.
     
  10. Draconi

    Draconi Most explosive UO Legend
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    Thankfully, this isn't so. Although, when I look over the website I realize that it's only covering the Gargoyle race stuff, and the new skills. We're not just adding new lands, but plenty of pretty darned cool systems and tons of content the website just doesn't convey... yet.

    Our beta testers have the best feel for it, because they can see the docs on the internal forums.

    So! I know how it looks, and believe me, we need to get more information out there :) SA is by far the most ambitious expansion in UO's history, and I don't say it lightly.

    P.S. (On Throwing, yes, it's Gargoyle only, but in exchange, Archery is Human/Elf only)
     
  11. Infiniti

    Infiniti Guest

    I agree with Draconi...only part of the expansion has been explained so far. I am looking forward to all the content and can't wait to explore the new lands and try my hand at the new trade skills. I will be making a gargoyle.
     
  12. Amren

    Amren Journeyman
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    Well what good would a new race be (aside from the pixel crack) if it did not offer something unique for the game play. I am all for gargoyle-only skills and armor, but there should also be unique human stuff as well, it adds diversity to a game, where all characters pretty much play the same.
     
  13. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Have to agree with Amren, I in no way would be bothered if all three of the current skills had been gargoyle only, but with that I also believed their should have been elf and human only items as well, and your argument being throwing only...is sort of invalid, since archery is human/elf specific and gargoyles can't use it thus creating balance in what you are complaining about. Humans not being able to use the throwing skill which so far by the explanation will be usable by only gargoyle type weapons, so its not like they will be throwing around already existing weapons thus your argument that you can understand not being able to use gargoyle weapons sort of...counters your argument
     
  14. Whinemaker

    Whinemaker Guest

    I think you've just said for me what I actually intended to say, only better! ;)
    What I mean by I agreed with the OP is that I think the original contents of the game should be looked after as well. All my chars are human (I dunno, I just don't like elves), and I must say I feel a little neglected.

    Side-tracking a little bit, I think balancing could be an issue with diversity when not done carefully. I like the idea that they made Elves and Human unique from each other, but even now I'm still not convinced that it's a fair trade between the elven and human abilities. It's almost like, the elves are getting all the good stuff, but didn't receive any significant weaknesses in exchange for it. Oh, and not to mention, they get the elves-only equipment and the privilege to tame Cu Sidhe's as well! :cursing:

    I have no problem with the throwing/archery split. I just wish they could look back and perhaps give the human/elf split a little review that I think human chars deserve.
     
  15. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Whinemaker do you feel that way simply because of the elf only wearable items? The Cu sidhe I don't think is really a well placed complaint, now I've not tried to tame one with a human char I don't think but can you not tame them wearing the pads of the cu sidhe? If not then I guess they could do something about that, I know you can still ride them tho. I asked about the wearable items because the other things seem fine to me, unless you don't try to take advantage of the races abilities.

    To who ever wrote about the 20 mana, that extra mana is not such a big deal on templates with out med and focus. unless you have both of these already over 20 My personal feeling on the matter is that the gain from JoaT is fine appose to using the 20 mana, but that depends on play style as well. Aside from the wearable items I feel it is mostly balanced, if they wanted to make elf and human specific skills I would be ok with that as well, but it starts to get tricky when you introduce skills that should be counter acting other skills, as not all humans will have the skill to go against the gargoyle/elf skills and visa versa.
     
  16. Whinemaker

    Whinemaker Guest

    Hi Cloak&Dagger,

    It's not just the equip-ables, this is how I view it:

    1) Cu Sidhes: I just think it'd be great if they could throw in a human only tamable as the Cu Sidhe's counterpart but with a different ability, like what they did to the ki-rin/unicorn many years ago. It just doesn't make too much sense right now for a tamer (the char I play mostly) to stay as human if you want to maximise the template's potential, because there isn't really anything to make you think twice before choosing to become an elf (If I want to tame the Cu I can't tame the other pet etc). Not to mention being an elf frees up your footwear slot for some other items (snakeskin boot/replica etc) as well.

    And nope, the boots don't grant humans the ability to tame Cu's.

    2) The Elven Equipment: I think we agree with each other on this one (hope I'm reading it correctly), so I guess I don't need to elaborate more?

    3) Elf vs Human Abilities:
    -Elf: Nightsight / Human: None > Fine, I can live with that.
    -Elf: +5 Resist / Human: None > Granted, you still need the suit to take advantage of the +5 Resist, and +5 really isn't much. But can't they make it so that Elves get -5 cold or something back? I see this as Elf 1-0 Human.
    -Elf: More Special Resources / Human: More Regular Resources > Fine.
    -Elf: Extra Passive Detect Hidden+More Difficult to Track / Human: None > 2-0?
    -Elf: Carry Less / Human: Carry More > I'd give it to human here, but with the Bag of Sending working like it used to, I don't see the ability to carry more as an advantage.
    -Elf: 0 HP Regen / Human: +2 HP Regen > Don't really think +2 is that big a deal, but to those who think it's an advantage, Elf 2-0.5 Human? But again, it's not hard to find something with 2 HP regen on a piece of armour.
    -Elf: 20 Mana / Human: JoAT > The problem with this is that you can take out those 20 Mana and give your other stats a boost with an Elf (Swapping 20 Int for Str/Dex), but the Human JoAT is not stackable/interchangable. The JoAT is convenient, but it doesn't directly affect the performance of your char like the 20 mana increase does. Well Ok fine, maybe the basic 20.0 tracking and that +3 mana regen and +2 stamina regen from focus and med, but I never use tracking in Trammel and the regen is quite easily achievable with a decent suit. I say the final score is Elf 3-0(0.5) Human. Well 2.5-0(0.5) at least.

    My feeling is that whatever humans can do, (most of the time) elves can as well with the right items, but the opposite is not true for humans.

    Just one last tiny thing I find annoying.
    I have a Human scribe mage with 120 Mage/Eval/Med/Resist/Wrestle and 100 Inscription, and that last 20 points of skill kind of just went "lost". I can already do everything with JoAT at 20.0 skill, so it's somewhat pointless to have the char stay as human since I don't go to Fel anyway (don't really need the JoAT tracking). Hell, if I went elf, I would actually be able to take 10.0 off my med by wearing the Spell Woven Britches and suddenly I'd have 30 skill points to mess with instead of 20. But then I'm just sticking with my char because he's "human", and I don't want to make up some crazy story in his lore to turn him into an elf (yeah sorry for being a nerd for roleplaying or something).

    I dunno, just how I feel about it. Maybe I'm just biased to begin with.

    Sorry if this is a tad long.
     
  17. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    The best aspect (IMO as someone who played through U6 and still consider it my favorite of the series (also played 7 (both parts with expansions), 9, and toyed around with the earlier ones) is that throwing with gargoyles is the most Canon skill they could give for combat. Why? Because the gargs that you fight (especially at the start of the game) use *gasp!* boomerangs. Now granted once you loot one, you can use it too since the prime Ultima series did not include "weaponskills" beyond simple aspects of personality (Iolo uses a bow, Dupre a large sword and kite shield, Shamino a rapier and main gauch, Spark a sling, and so on).

    While there is a LOT I cannot go into regarding the expansion in terms of content, as an Ultima fan, there has been a lot of "OH SWEET!" moments so far.
     
  18. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Ahh ok, as I said I was not sure about the taming the Cu. I also have to agree with you on being a scribe mage as a human, those 20 points are wasted. And yes items do offset the elves inability but items offset all inability in UO these days (except the mentioned Cu Sidhe taming) I do agree with you that there should be human only wearable items and human only tamables would be fine too, long as they kept that fair with some item that let you control them just like how the Cu is now.

    As for the Human vs Elf abilities,

    I would say to give the humans an extra 5 physical (elves are suppose to be slimer and more fragile?)

    The strong back situation, I do not know so I will just give you that one.

    the gain in passive detect hidden should not be a problem for you, since you don't use it in trammel =p, but this is offset by the 20 tracking 20 detect hidden, unless of course you have a tracking elf, in which case have to give it to elves for this skill.

    Hit point regeneration, yes you can find an item with +2hpr but does the human hpr not stack? I am pretty sure it does, thus giving it 4hpr on a like suit, or anything the elf has +2, granted not a big deal. this one is more a curiosity than a statement as I'm not sure if it stacks or not.

    Now the extra 20 mana is where I have a real, argument so to say. In trammel or fel this one is offset by 20med and focus, sure mages get the bad end of this but +med over time is better than 20 extra med in the beginning.

    I do however feel your plight and agree that humans need more well human things, the other 2 races will have things specific to them but JoaT does not really cover it in the grander scheme of things, I have always felt elves were more like a super race (even with the upcoming expansion elves are the only race who can wear two races set of armor, so far anyway don't think they are changing this) the only draw back to being an elf usually comes when you want to take advantage of what humans can offer, such as the 20 focus and med but if you make up for this with items or by having an extra 20-40 skill points then elves do in fact have it better.
     
  19. Hildebrand

    Hildebrand Certifiable
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    The +2 hpr does stack in humans. KR says so. Helps when in lich form.

    IMO, the elves and humans are balanced enough. At least from a trammie standpoint and crafter standpoint.

    It would've been nice to see the magery circles changed around. Or a special book with the circles enhanced (Arch protection anyone?). I seriously doubt we'd see a 9th circle. It's just not Ultima. :)
     
  20. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
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    "With Mondain's Legacy, the Elf only content was a put off, "
    -How was the Elf content put off?? What were YOU looking for?, you fail to explain that.

    "My long lived characters who are intelligent "
    - ok, that needs explaining.....do they stop in midaction and speak to you??
    Intelligent how??

    "my already long lived and well traveled characters, I don't want to derail their stories "
    - Time to change that pen holder buddy......you're creeping me out.

    In all sincerity, steering away from the nerd jabs, ...it's a game dude, nothing more. It seems you're asking for a whole new Britannia except in gargoyle form........either that, or I can't tell what the hell you want.

    later
     
  21. Leaf

    Leaf Sage
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    Not to go OT here, but at least you have numerous slots to possibly make a Gargoyle. I'm still hoping they will consider a 2nd Character slot for Seige players as I already have 3 accounts and I'm not going to open another for a Gargoyle. Another Character slot would be great though. Not asking for much, just a chance to enjoy the upgrade too. ;)
     
  22. Hildebrand

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    I was hoping for a free 7th slot.
    Maybe for Christmas, but who can wait?
    As soon as SA is out, I'll have to buY that 7th slot. Too bad THEY HAVEN'T FIXED UO GAMECODES!
     
  23. Whinemaker

    Whinemaker Guest

    Actually, just curious, how many human chars do you (still) have besides your resource gathering/crafter chars?
    I'm under the impression that if you spend most of your time in Trammel there's pretty much no reason to play a human char (except crafters). The elves are just simply much better (...in my biased point of view, at least).
     
  24. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    I don't know how many human chars he plays but I can tell you I have more human than elf chars, lets see i have 26 chars, and only 8 of them are elf (i could be slightly mistaken might be as many as 10) those numbers are only from one shard tho, adding other shards into the mix would be to complicated.
     
  25. Dol'Gorath

    Dol'Gorath Grand Inquisitor
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    OH NO LETS MAKE ALL RACES HUMANS WITH DIFFERENT SKINS!

    Each race has advantages and disadvantages that make them different to play.
     
  26. Hildebrand

    Hildebrand Certifiable
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    I have just one elf... the smith/tinker/miner/carpenter. Mainly wanted those Ecru Citrine and chance at better resources, but haven't noticed much difference. Humans have better carrying capacity and the MR from JoaT is nicer and noticable compared to elf.
     
  27. Whinemaker

    Whinemaker Guest

    If that's the case then I stand by my argument from my other post that the better carrying capacity can be nullified by packies and bag of sending, and the MR can be achieved with a good suit. :D

    The JoAT feature is something convenient, but not as noticeable on some templates as on the others. Warriors probably benefit from it more because of the lowered mana cost, but I think that's it. I play mostly in Trammel (I do go to Fel, I just don't do PvP), and the only JoAT abilities I use actively are hiding and camping (and sometimes tracking when I'm in Fel to see whether someone's lurking), that's all. Maybe occasionally a Gift of Renewal and Curse Weapon here and there.

    Speaking strictly from a "trammie's" view point, for warriors I think elves and humans are pretty much the same, but for mages elves are probably the better choice. And for tamers... you don't really have a choice do you?

    And again, out of curiosity, your reason to stay with humans?

    I have NO elf chars. The only time I turned my tamer into an elf was for the stupid Cu (I just believe that a tamer should tame his own pets). My reason for keeping all my chars human has nothing to do with whether they're better/worse than the elves or not... just that I never really recognise the elves as an "official race" in the Ultima lore. Yes I know they did make that one appearance in Ultima III, but I don't know, they're just not... "Ultima" enough to me (again, sorry for being a geek).
     
  28. Hildebrand

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    I don't remember elves in Ultima III (dang memory!).
    I think they all have their benefits. I just like the slight chance at all things like hiding, MR, and low level spellweaving stuff. Even with a good MR suit, that extra tiny MR from JoaT is still sweet.
    Although on my necro/mage i'm thinking going elf for the extra mana.
    I'm just waiting to see how the gargoyles will be before committing to anything solid.
    Yeah... waiting for over two years!
     
  29. Gladius

    Gladius Guest

    I total emphatize with the author of this thread. Many years ago when I first played Ultima 6 (Pagan) everything was centered on the RP aspect of being the Avatar in the game.

    The SA expansion is nothing more than a "new" game incorporated in the old one which was UO. Soon and I won't even be surprised if a new race of Imps were to stake their hold on Sosaria as well. And what about the other Humanoids like Trogs and Ogre Lords eh? They can't just be the whipping boys forever eh?

    Maybe the Ogre Lords will be King of the hill in slingshots eh?

    Perhaps it would have been better if new cities to build Castles on like in Malas or more new quests were added into the game as a whole. The expansion then would be palatable to people.

    SA is going to be the start of a vicious circle and I feel I will patronize it just the same for the sake of the fabled characters I have created.

    BTW I am proud to be an elf in one of my main characters hope I would feel the same being a senseless mumbling Gargoyle eh?

    -G-
     
  30. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest


    senseless mumbling? sort of sound that way.....The no castles thing is just fine as is, also they have added new quests and such with each expansion so you think they are not going to now? (never mind the massive dungeon they are adding) and BTW if you knew about SA (you know from the single player games) gargoyles are intelligent, and if you read the UO lore on them, you will find they "should" be more intelligent than you human chars, but hey your a mumbling baffled imp, right? I don't even understand this "new game incorporated" part you stated, are you saying they have never added new skills or dungeons or land masses or races or...which part makes it different from the last 6 expansions? Honestly basing all of your hatred on a skill that is pointless to argue about (archery vs throwing) is really being narrow minded, archery should offset throwing, throwing does not add to any of the abilities of current combat skills as far as we know, so why grip over a skill you essentially already have when you have not had the chance to try it? or even see how it works...or really any basis to complain about it.
     
  31. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest


    The mr thing is not really taken aside by a good suit, you will always get the bump from human in mr/hpr/sr no matter how many items you tack on, also I do find the lower end spellweaving spells to be useful. I both pvp and enjoy tram. I usually base my choice of race on the template I am playing, the suit I will be putting around it, and if i plan to rp at all (and yea the tamer thing is not much choice. Well I guess you could get away with being human and not actually taming the Cu's...have someone else tame and give it to you? heh) And no need to be sorry for being a geek lol, I've never been so into something that I would jeopardize my play style for it (personal opinion of jeopardy not saying you do this) but it is perfectly fine for you to base your decision on what you have.
     
  32. Quantum Ace

    Quantum Ace Guest

    That last bit is what is a turn-off for me. I don't like the limitations that are being placed on us in the last couple of expansions. The quests to change from elf to human and back, if I decide I want to change weapon skills or whathave you, just aren't fun. I am expecting the same for gargoyles.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about some things, its just that I wish we could do away with some of the drudgery.
     
  33. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Currently there is no race based skills so you wouldn't have to do the quest to go elf then human than elf. And in speaking twards the future...I see no reason why you would switch between throwing and archery, It is more of a "pick your race" then pick your skills. I could see the problem if you disliked being a gargoyle and switched to human or elf (tho last I checked there was not going to be a way to do this?) But if you were just going to test out the gargoyles racial abilities, One would believe you would pick a melee skill, or Magery or the like, something that is not race bound as you don't want to encounter such a situation (or if you are switching to the class....don't switch your archer) again I can see the complaint if you wanted to switch races and already had the skill, but again you know the game design, work with it, plan around it.
     
  34. Quantum Ace

    Quantum Ace Guest

    Currently there is no race based skills so you wouldn't have to do the quest to go elf then human than elf. And in speaking twards the future...I see no reason why you would switch between throwing and archery, It is more of a "pick your race" then pick your skills. I could see the problem if you disliked being a gargoyle and switched to human or elf (tho last I checked there was not going to be a way to do this?) But if you were just going to test out the gargoyles racial abilities, One would believe you would pick a melee skill, or Magery or the like, something that is not race bound as you don't want to encounter such a situation (or if you are switching to the class....don't switch your archer) again I can see the complaint if you wanted to switch races and already had the skill, but again you know the game design, work with it, plan around it.[/QUOTE]

    All of that will be a little difficult when us Siege players get 1 char slot. I can only presume that there will be a quest for such players, as Draconi has mentioned in the past there would be a way to change.
     
  35. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    there would be a way to go to gargoyle, but last I heard there would be no going back to human...and I sympathize with you being on siege. I should not have assumed you were on a prod shard, that is my fault.