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The definitive word on PvP by a non PvPer

Discussion in 'UHall' started by RavenWinterHawk, Jul 25, 2008.

  1. I always argue this. PvP has 3 or 4 levels.

    Stop talking about everything should be fair. Fair is the same skills, naked, wrestling. If you do that with charactures... You know what they never die.

    So...

    There is dueling. Its its own PvP branch.

    There are gangs. The more gang members the better the advantage.

    There are wanderers. They show up and pick off who ever they feel they can kill.

    Probably a defensive style to survive and engage other as little as possible... but thats me.


    Why do you all cry imbalance? (not all of you just a figure of speech)

    Well, sometimes a new skill based on the damage output vs. cost of skill points is off. Thats where the adjustments come in. Okay an imbalance.


    Aside from that, look to see what kind of enviroment your in.

    Let see, 8 players spamming (what was it wither or strangle). Well youre going to die. No matter what they are spamming. Did you want a duel? Maybe UO needs an organize gladiator arena.

    One red stands around with health bars up and flamestrikes the weakest. Are seeing healthbars imbalances?

    Here is novel idea? (for ea)

    How about putting value on weapons beyond special moves and speed?
    To me, I see the flaw as... PvP has lost its diversity and you have become such a homogeneous group that its frustrating. (please understand the word)

    Aside from hacks and cheats. Which needs a fix.

    How much variance is there really in PvP when looking at pure dueling?

    How much variance is there when it comes to numbers vs numbers?
    (8 spammers of spells vs 2 dexxers)

    And dont you think pvp has become a chain of counter this and counter that. Petals here, potion there, curse this, cure that. I know this creates the illusion of variety but when you boil it down... what is the essence of PvP.

    Why do I ask? Because I think the game has been going in the direction of give us more. Why play with it and realize its more of the same. Polishing it up is what I think is needed. Not just fixing it. I see factions being overhauled. For me this is the deal breaker. All this effort, great ideas, if the cant deliver, well here we go again.

    Okay, so to clarify. Why have 58 different types of armour when everyone wears barbed leather or now-a-days mage plate. This flaw, is where the polish is needed.
     
  2. Salty Pete

    Salty Pete Guest

    There is crying and nerf calling in every MMO that has PvP. Someone else's character is always "gimp", "unbalanced" or "hacking". When people lose fights in PvP it is never their fault.
     
  3. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
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    No... that's everybody being exactly the same. Things can be fair with people being different.


    There are also adjustments to skills, or new items that come in that bring forth the same situation. But there are few imbalances at the moment except for the gap between those who have time to powergame (or have been in the game long enough and have been patient enough with their money to amass a noteworthy wealth) and those who are more casual players.


    Definitely.


    Factions has been broke for a long time. It was never really a system that had a chance of thriving without lots of change. It caters to those in well-organized groups who have lots and lots of collective free time, and nobody else.
     
  4. Landicine

    Landicine Seasoned Veteran
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    Item diversity is an interesting topic which we could go into at another time, but I'd rather talk about template diversity for a minute.

    A lot of games have a metagame of various "templates." Good games have enough so there is sort of a rock-paper-scissors dynamic going on with each template being good against some subset of templates and weak against others. Sometimes, one template will become a little bit more powerful, and "hater" templates will emerge to take out that template.

    In unfortunate circumstances, there will be only one viable template, and anyone who doesn't use that template will lose. UO in the time of the tank mage (magery, swords, magic halberd, plate armor) was a one template dynamic. Everyone else will use that template and differences of personal skill will matter greatly. Usually in these circumstances, there will be one or two really first rate players, and a lot of chaff. An example Raph Koster mentions was Tinkerboy who had ~14000 murder counts when the average player had 2.

    Are we at a point in UO where there are only one or two viable templates? I don't think so. Are there some things that need tweaks? Probably, but these tweaks have the possibility of creating other imbalances that need tweaks, sort of a circle of nerf.
     
  5. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    "I always argue this. PvP has 3 or 4 levels."

    No. You can either fight or you cannot. Some people got it, some don't. There are equipment levels, but just two. Uber and crap. Just like having only two social classes, filthy rich and **** poor.

    "Stop talking about everything should be fair. Fair is the same skills, naked, wrestling."

    Nobody wants it fair unless they really fail to grasp what PvP combat is in UO. People discuss various details of spells and templates, this or that, when they feel there is something wrong or overpowered or not working as intended. Nothing to do with fairness.

    "There is dueling. Its its own PvP branch."

    I've said it again. That's masochism unless you run the same templates. So in essence dueling is trying to be fair in a real fight. Will never represent a real fight accurately.

    "There are gangs. The more gang members the better the advantage."

    False. Just have 2 Omen spammers. I do not die from Stealth/Dismounter + Tamer/Mage + Disarm Archer + Archer(this from yesterday).....
    I die from 2 Omen spammers 100% though.

    "There are wanderers. They show up and pick off who ever they feel they can kill."

    Until the Omen Squad shows up.

    "Probably a defensive style to survive and engage other as little as possible... but that's me."

    That's you. Definitely.

    "Why do you all cry imbalance?"

    When people find ways to exploit damage cap, to abuse Omen, to speedhack, to dupe, to cast on the run, to abuse gimplates... There will be a reaction. Why do you cry about it?

    "Well, sometimes a new skill based on the damage output vs. cost of skill points is off. That's where the adjustments come in. Okay an imbalance."

    What adjustments? Devs haven't even commented on the CURRENT imbalances.

    "Aside from that, look to see what kind of enviroment you're in."

    So now you're a Legendary PvP Survivalist giving advice that would work IRL but not in a game..?

    "Let see, 8 players spamming. Well you're going to die. No matter what they are spamming."

    It's just 2 players you need spamming, see above what I survived yesterday more than once.
    And the spell's Omen.
    Yes you are going to die from Omen.
    No, if they spammed something else you could have a chance to run off or kill one and run off if you are really good.
    In fact yesterday there were a guild of 6 people in Fel Gate Yew, Europa and they were getting mowed down so badly by far outnumbered groups including me and a guildie mage- there goes your theory.

    "Did you want a duel? Maybe UO needs an organize gladiator arena."

    Maybe a non-PvPer has no place giving advice to PvPers.

    "One red stands around with health bars up and Flamestrikes the weakest. Are seeing healthbars imbalances?"

    Really now, where do you get your scenarios.. It happens when there's a champ raid and one mage acts as a turret. That's a tactic. Nobody is crying about a mage casting Flamestrikes on his mates' target.
    I am quite sure that the only crying on these forums has been against Omen and against some Archery issues with over-cap damage.

    "PvP has lost its diversity and you have become such a homogeneous group that its frustrating."

    First, PvM is more HOMOGENOUS. TAMER TAMER TAMER VAMP VAMP VAMP TAMER TAMER DARKWOOD SUIT DARKWOOD SUIT TAMER TAMER LUCK SUIT.
    Second, if your mind cannot discern the small details that separate templates it's not the PvPers' fault.
    Third, if you wanted diversity why were you crying about Proffessions along with the rest clueless people?

    "Aside from hacks and cheats. Which needs a fix."

    No sh*t, Sherlock.

    "How much variance is there really in PvP when looking at pure dueling?"

    There you go, using PvP and Dueling in the same sentence again..

    "How much variance is there when it comes to numbers Vs numbers?"

    In group fights there is a large degree of variety as every passing second is a choice taken thus producing an action and a reaction from the enemy.
    Roleplaying will teach you that even if the two groups have the same templates essential, their strategy makes it all too diverse. Like in Chess. You have the same pieces, but the game is very interesting. Now add that in UO you do NOT have the same pieces.
    But you have failed to see that to begin with.

    "And don't you think PvP has become a chain of counter this and counter that. Petals here, potion there, curse this, cure that."

    Petals, potions, buffs and precasts.. Weapon switches and bolas. Enchanted apples to destroy a Necro's opening combo(which are otherwise quite lethal).. They are all openers. When the real fight starts only potions, personal skill, template and equipped main items matter. I agree that potions need to be reworked though.

    "I know this creates the illusion of variety but when you boil it down... What is the essence of PvP."

    To kill. To be killed. In many mysterious(to you apparently) and funny ways. To trash-talk, to loot potions. To get insurance. To get noticed around your server. To make friends or a guild. To raid a champ and get the scrolls from the PvM crowd. To go berserk. To **** off people. To vent. To see who's got the bigger d*ck. Or simply just because you can and it's part of the game.
    The reasons are horrible, or noble or neutral. But they are many.
    And there is no illusion here, only a short-sighted PvMer with lots of theories and lots of ill advice.

    "Why do I ask? Because I think the game has been going in the direction of give us more. Why play with it and realize it's more of the same. Polishing it up is what I think is needed. Not just fixing it. I see factions being overhauled. For me this is the deal breaker. All this effort, great ideas, if the can't deliver, well here we go again."

    You bash PvP to prove your point that the game is boring to you, because the Devs can't deliver an unspecified good you desperately seek in your UO life? Okay that makes sense. :coco:

    "Okay, so to clarify. Why have 58 different types of armour when everyone wears barbed leather or now-a-days mage plate. This flaw, is where the polish is needed."

    Believe it or not there are people who pay attention to their style, and people who wear their dream full platemail made of Val Hammers.
    And people who burn Runic Kits to wear Ninja suits or Leaf Tonlets.
    We need those "58 different armour types" and in fact we need more.
    It's just like in real life, with all those weapon types and armour types(back then). Each has a purpose, in UO this purpose is aesthetics.

    And you know what, people who burn Hammers and Kits making only Human Leather Armour and Mage Armour Plate are often afraid that other types will have lower resists, are too eager to get their dream suit, can't afford to spend charges making Females Only parts, or Elf Only parts.. and a ton of other lame reasons.
    I had made my suit ages ago. I always struggle to improve it by burning Hammers and Kits to eventually look the way I want while also having the mods I want.
    Don't blame people who don't care about appearance. They will get it sooner or later.

    Lastly stop bashing PvP, pretending you know the first thing about it.

    PS. To me someone who spends their Runic Kits and Hammers trying to make full platemail or full Elf Leafwear or Bone Armour or Samurai Armour set to look cool has the most respect. I'm thinking that they are a worthy player, they like their character, they like the game and they have a plan to look cool while playing. This is respectable, it means they enjoy themselves.
     
  6. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    I'd like to see dextery penalties from armor again. Even if it's medable mage armor, it should still drop your dexerity a point or two as it used to.

    Just a suggestion...la
     
  7. Skylark SP

    Skylark SP Available Storage: 0
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    Dexterity. ;)

    And I agree, the current state of armor has pretty much killed armor from an RP perspective, although the runic changes seem to have allowed SOME variety. And armor magic properties (and magic properties in general) have made it to where, as Raven points out, everyone is wearing the same basic things, looking for max intensity in certain magic properties, and they keep that one "suit" forever (insured) and throw anything else away. In an item based game, if 95% of the items have no real use or value, something is wrong.

    -Skylark
     
  8. Interesting post by RavenWinterHawk and an even more interesting reply by S!ckLoveR. I'm going with S!ckLoveR on this one.

    UO PvP is indeed an intelligent game of chess. As pointed out by S!ckLoveR, the pieces (and their available moves) are different for each player, let alone unique signature strategies with every unique player.

    UO PvP remains one of the best pvp experiences among MMORPGs, AoS notwithstanding. Template, Equipment, Strategy - UO PvP is currently a balance of these 3, and therein lies the free will, creativity and fun of it all - you get considerable personal freedom (as compared to other MMORPGs) in each of these 3 areas that determine (the quality of) your pvp experience.

    Tamer gimplates notwithstanding, from my experience as a pvper, I know that everyone can polish and improve his pvp character (in all 3 areas of template, equipment or suit, and strategy) till he can hold his own in pvp (both field and dueling).

    Being a True PvP God doesn't mean you kill everyone else, it means you've achieved the top of your form and shine at your very best. Every self-respecting pvper qualifies.
     
  9. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    I wish to add this..

    Regarding armour you should not get me wrong. I am all for some sort of change in that area of the game much like you all suggest. A penalty, a bonus, some sort of difference and maybe less easy-to-have requirements than just Strength.

    But I also firmly stand by what I mentioned among everything else- people do still use UO's variety and there is absolutely no reason to remove any item type or whine about it.

    Who knows, maybe one day we'll get a tool to modify armour type visually. That'd really help if they never plan to make serious changes anyway..
     
  10. It isn't that complicated.

    For PvP, people tend to move to whatever is most overpowered at the moment.

    I can't speak for production shards but on Siege that means that people are running tamers with greater dragons. 90 point breath damage is too much.

    The other thing that is overpowered on Siege is hide/stealth.

    I think we have a chance at getting the dragons fixed because now people on production shards are complaining about them too.

    We have little or no opportunity to get hide/stealth fixed. Unfortunately, it wasn't broken until the "team" started messing around with it.

    :(
     
  11. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    I cannot understand why you still moan about Hiding and Stealth.
    Did you not destroy Stealthers already? Isn't it enough that now with Conflagration Potions Hiding and Stealth are DEAD? Not to mention the myriad other actions you can take against a Stealther on just about all templates, even without items?

    Look. In another thread when Tamers defended their template and their pets' powers they were fast to find solutions and I admire that. They are also very valid solutions even for Siege, simply get a Bard with you.

    With Hiding, Stealth, Poisoning, Ninjitsu and other skills not widely liked, people cry instead of working it out. Easy : Cry Nerf.

    Instead of crying how this or that is overpowered, help find a solution everyone will like. And let me emphasize this;
    In Evil Omen's case there is nothing to be done and I believe 90% of the people discussing it want it nerfed. Those who do not are clueless or simply use it themselves just like it was with Lightning Strike. But Hiding/Stealth is nowhere near that. In fact it is not even overpowered.

    Fact #1, a Stealther will help you against a Tamer more than anyone else in field fights while being safe from the pets, if they know their game ;)
    Fact #2, just yesterday I survived a ganging involving a tamer along with other templates. At the same time I cannot survive a gang by 2 Omen Spammers. I think I can barely survive a 1 on 1 with an Omen Spammer in fact, if I use a Trapped Box and they get out of sync for a split second in re-casting.
    Unless I run away and log out in awaiting of them to quit the game.

    But sorry, I am taking it off topic now.
     
  12. Good responses.

    I cant necessarily disagree. I actually think the higher level of PvPing is being discussed. That is the human player.

    Might add chess played on a chess board is one version.

    Chess priniciples played on different boards is another.

    Probably just splitting hairs.

    Any how, the movement to the hottest flavor of the month demonstrates an inherent problem with pvp or really the game.

    I can see PvP like this. You are the mind and logic. The apsects of the game are the chess pieces. They define what you can and cant do. A skilled PvPer intergrates all the components and goes out a plays.

    That is essential to any game.

    I more feel EA is just throwing out components. Those components need spit a polish.
     
  13. Lady_Mina

    Lady_Mina Guest

    It's always the hackers and bug exploiters that "win" in pvp.
    That's always been the problem in UO.

    I think it's pretty sad when people need to use hacks and bug exploits to "win".

    + i haven't seen any games where all classes were perfectly in balance.
     
  14. legendsguy

    legendsguy Sage
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    i'm fine with pvp. just get rid of the tamers. that's all. in fact, i think when a tamer sets foot in fel their pet should disintegrate into ashes, non-rezable even when returning to trammel.
     

  15. Actually, I think its pretty sad the use them. Win. And think they actually are something special for winning when the really cheated.

    GO figure.
     
  16. Inspector

    Inspector Guest

    Yes they do need to make a duel arena, they already have the basic code for the wins/losses deaths(its on test center) and they could always take a trip over to one of the "unapproved" shards and grab a few ideas from them on how to implement it. It would be a great way for people to learn pvp in a "safe" environment and it would make it easier to tell if you were better than someone else in dueling.
    I have a friend that plays the "unapproved" shard and he told me that they have a nice system you can choose the rules for the match how many players and wich players are going to duel in the match. And if you try to break one of the rules it siply wont allow you to do the action.
    I thought that a while back before they implemented the honor virtue that it was going to be an arena type thing.... but they scrapped that for the sub-par honor virtue we have today.
     
  17. timbeOFbaja

    timbeOFbaja Guest

    Which was the reason for the OP. He loves his uber dragon in PvE and is afraid any PvP rebalancing will ruin "easy mode" in PvE.

    Sooooooo, apparently he thinks he'll come here and attempt to placate/brainwash everybody with a lot of circular reasoning. Fantastic.