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The difference between "nerfed" and exploit

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Diomedes Artega, Oct 11, 2008.

  1. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    So I couldn't resist posting this given it seems that some people don't understand the differentiation between these 2 distinct definitions.

    Exploit
    1. A deed or act; especially, a heroic act; a deed of renown; an adventurous or noble achievement; as, the exploits of Alexander the Great.
    2. Combat; war.
    3. To utilize; to make available; to get the value or usefulness out of; as, to exploit a mine or agricultural lands; to exploit public opinion.
    4. Hence: To draw an illegitimate profit from; to speculate on; to put upon.

    Definitions of this will vary since more a "gaming" type of term. Actually I found a good term from Wikipedia. Credit goes to them for this.

    Nerf
    In computer gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that downgrades the power, effectiveness or influence of a particular game element in the attempt to achieve balance.


    Another definition: To make a rules element significantly less powerful (sometimes too much so). Nerfing broken rules is one way to make them balanced.

    So, in layman's terms, an exploit in our case would be doing something that is not suppose to be possible through the normal game programming/mechanics of the game. A nerf is to make something not as powerful or to help achieve an equilibrium or better game balance.

    Example: The sampire template was a game mechanic exploit. Not a nerf. In just my toying with it the past several days...seems effective to me with having 100 necromancy. It is thereby NOT nerfed, since the effectiveness of the template is still fine. Capice?

    Adjust your template and equipment if you like playing the template. Think outside the box. Use jewelry with HCI/DCI and damage increase like I saw someone say, and there you go.

    lol...Now that I have explained it in layman's terms, can't we all just move on?
    Let's get on a kick about Greater Dragon's now! :lick:
     
  2. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Except, it wasn't an exploit. Reasons have been explained hundreds of times by now.
     
  3. RoycroftLS

    RoycroftLS Guest

    You could have used Wikipedia to look for "exploit" as well:

     
  4. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Except that it was... Just because you wanted to use it and continue to do so, doesn't mean it should have been left as it was. You had your time to take advantage of the sampire trick, now it's time to move on to something else or invest real skill.

    Wenchy
     
  5. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Note to Ender:

    look at RoycroftLS' post.

    Nowhere in the wiki definition (which is pretty much the standard game-industry definition) does it say that an Exploit is automatically against the rules - JUST UNINTENDED.

    There have been plenty of exploits in plenty games over the years that were never deemed "illegal" in-game, many of which were fixed somewhere along the line if the game was still actively supported.

    BUT THEY WERE STILL EXPLOITS, even if never deemed "ILLEGAL".

    You're right - it has been explained hundreds of times - but it was explained to you and those of like mind, and you STILL don't get it.
     
  6. Ericge99

    Ericge99 Guest

    Simpletons never do ! :loser:
     
  7. Lady Mana

    Lady Mana Guest

    Interchanging 'nerf' and 'exploit'?

    My english teacher would be ashamed, and she's not even a gamer xD
     
  8. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
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    Correction: Some sampire templates made use of one of two exploits.

    Now then... nobody has claimed the template, or the means of achieving the template, was a nerf. Nobody has claimed that the removal of the means of achieving the template was an exploit.
    People have correctly claimed that the removal of the exploit was a nerf to those who used the exploit.

    Just because a nerf is justified doesn't make it any less of a nerf.
     
  9. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    Really havent anyof you ever used a "nerf" football. A real football has some weight to it as well as sometimes a bruise if you catch it wrong. A "nerf" football cou;ld bean you on top of the head and leave no mark at all!

    Oh yea all of us here stayed indoors during childhood learning C++.

    My favorite was the nerf boomerang WOOT!
     
  10. Does it really matter and did we need YET ANOTHER thread on this subject?

    The change is going to happen. The people that were playing Necro warriors of one type or another have already changed their templates and have moved on.

    Maybe everyone else should too.
     
  11. K'torr

    K'torr Guest

    Gotta love UO. Some here, I think, couldn't agree on the color of an orange.
     
  12. What do you mean? We all know they're green.

    That's just silly.

    :lick:
     
  13. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Wtf Connor, everybody knows they're blue.
     
  14. Tycolby

    Tycolby Guest

    Well oranges are green to start off with then orange when ripe then brown when over ripe and almost black when rotten. Which orange are you talking about?
     
  15. K'torr

    K'torr Guest

    The somewhat circular ones.
     
  16. Rowen

    Rowen Guest

    but in UO exploits have been deemed illegal. just some have been overlooked and the byproduct of fixed exploits are now legal. also this "exploit" is no different then an intended game mechanic where you can cast spells 2 levels higher than your skill using scrolls in magery. granted it is 6 or more levels higher with jewels and items, but that is how the game was designed with magery since i started playing nine years ago. the way the fix should of been is you need 79 skill to cast and maintain vamp form using a scroll. otherwise everyone using protection and spell reflect should lose that also since( the ones with no magery) they have no real magery 20 from jack of all trades plus the scrolls to cast or stoned, i dont remember what level it was so i might be wrong cause i dont use it on my warrior, but i think i might now.
     
  17. Tycolby

    Tycolby Guest

    I agree with what Rowen has to say about Protection. I dont have magery on my warior but I run around with it all the time. Yes I have a human warrior and the jack of all trades does apply. But I think i should have the required skill to maintain it instead of just dropping any mage jewelry i had to cast it in the first place. After all the mage skill doesnt show 20 on my skill chat.
     
  18. RTLFC

    :bdh: ok it's dead already can we PLEASE move on?!?!?
     
  19. You don't have to have any Magery skill to cast Protection from a scroll. I'm able to cast it with an elf in Vamp form just fine...
     
  20. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    You were ok till about right here. The 'template' is not fine. Since 'template' in gaming terms usually means a grouping of skills to perform certain tasks or activities, many of the current sampire 'templates' are in fact, nerfed. Before, a sampire template would include a certain level of skill in necro with the rest of the points for necro being provided by items. The rest of the skill points would then be usable for other skills. Now, with this change, more skill points are required in necro in order accomplish the same goals and activities. Thus, nerfed.

    Now, I am not saying that this is a bad thing. I am one of those people that feels that all skill items should be removed. And I am not saying that those that those that used this 'template' were evil or wrong to do so. They did 'exploit' a game mechanic. But they exploited it the same way people with taming exploit the use of greater dragons. And the same way that people in 98 exploited tank mage templates and the all mighty hally whomp. In other words, they played the game as the game designers made it. If- through either experience or feedback- the designers came to believe that this template was not what they wanted and decided to change certain design rules, the previous use of this template would not equal wrongdoing on the users' part.
     
  21. Ugh...

    They NERFED the EXPLOIT.

    There. Everyone happy now? Can we move on?

    :bdh:
     
  22. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    Now you're just exploiting the nerf.
     
  23. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Why does it matter so much what you call it?

    Either way, it will shortly change.

    I have no doubt that the players of Sampires will adapt and continue to prosper.

    It really surprises me that this change is as controversial as it is.

    -Galen's player
     
  24. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    Folk who considered it a legitimate game mechanic (let's face it, the devs knew about it, and never said "don't do it") don't want to be painted with the same brush as other exploiters.

    What makes it worse is that certain people feel the need to gloat about it.
    Pointing out how awesomely good the change was, and how the overpowered template is history.
    On and on.
    Most of the controversy stems from these people riling up the (as I see it, minority of) sampire players, who are already raging at this change. So, they get arguing, then the level-headed sampire players come in and point out that it was a good change.
    Instant ****storm.
     
  25. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    That's what you get when you have a board filled with the nanny nanny boo boo types that aren't interested in any real discussions and instead just want to pop in with their digs for the sole purpose of stirring up youknowwhat.

    Why this behavior is allowed to continue on these boards, I don't know. But, as long at it is allowed, it will continue. Sadly.
     
  26. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    A troll a day keeps the goats away
     
  27. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Hmm.

    Yeah, good point. I do not have 4/6 casting, but I am often "accused" of it, so I guess I'd get pissed too if they capped Chiv FC and FCR, and then people on the boards said it was an exploit.

    Though I support the change, I think I can see what you're talking about....Some of the posts supporting the change cross the line from supporting the change to gloating.

    Which personally I don't get.

    But on the other hand? I don't get the Sampire players being as pissed off as they are....I am nearly positive that the Samurai-Necromancer will remain a very powerful template, it'll just change.

    A general guideline is to never use a template that relies upon a "trick" of some kind.

    -Galen's player
     
  28. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
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    Well yeah I didn't make my point clear it seems. I wasn't against the change...never had really played the template. I guess I had just thought it seemed like a big deal to some people and that you can use other jewelry or different items and still have a good template...if that is the style you wanted to have still.

    And, no I don't think they were "bad" people or anything either. It just was what it was...and now, it just is what it is.

    I guess my point was I didn't see the effectiveness of it going down necessarily since you could compensate in other ways. But, not everyone has the same gear and/or same jewelry so I understand your point.

    It's just I always thought of a nerf like say taking away the actual vampiric embrace abilities...or taking away being able to get life back if you used curse weapon. That to me is a nerf since it overall reduces the effectiveness of that spell...really making it ineffective.
     
  29. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    I could say more its a nerf to a specific template. The necros who have healing really. I certainly enjoyed crosshealing with friends now my necro will have to be more of a loner than before. Cant heal my fighting partners only myself. Unless I find some elite jewery with 15 necro on each peice dci and hci 15 on each maybe some ressit and max dex and str on the jewerly so i can find a way to keep healing. But it's just not that easy to find. So it will just be easier to not bother crosshealing.
     
  30. Beefybone

    Beefybone Visitor

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    There was previously never any skill check for retention of forms, nor any statement from the developers indicating that there should be. Calling this an exploit is blatantly false. To make it an exploit you'd have to prove it was "unintended" for forms to be retained when skill items were removed.

    Running through a moongate to keep your skeletal steed from decaying is an exploit, albeit a harmless one on which it's impossible to prove intent. Putting on skill jewelry to cast a spell is not.

    But thanks for selling that line of logic. It's going to be hilarious when all those 'exploiting' tamers lose their extra stable slots.
     
  31. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    gee mister...free skill for nothing sure seems fishy to me.
     
  32. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Not really we can apply it to half of the skills in the game. And we speak of effects of the spell we can apply it to half the spells in the game. Example using mage wep to get 100-120 skills of wep, someone casting arch protection while you dont have skill to use the spell but still get benefits,getting invis while you have no mag,having youre pet ressurected by another while you dont have vet, getting cured,healed without you having spell, using pots without alchemy etc.. i know many of these examples are of someone else doing this to you but as a effect you get by by passing having the skill youreself and using a exploit second character to do it :)

    Im just trying to point out the whole game is a exploit if people look at it by there opinions. Who are we to say that originaly intent was ok reason they let it happened for so long. And only recently they said well ok lets change it. Right now youre allowed to tame cu lets say a year from now they say its not ok to tame them. Then once again the original intent was to tame them but it turned out they decided you cant. Its just a subject of opinion.
    What ever changes they make they make there the gods yet we are the paying customers so its would be good to keep most of the player base happy in some way.
    In my opinion the only thing I consider a exploit would be something game mechanics doest allow. For example if I can use teleport spell to jump on a roof thats fine cause game mechanic allows it. Using a glitch in the programing to make 100 billion in 1 minute well wecan bring that into exploit mode as we are exploiting game mechanic that would not allow that in a average basis. Seemingly all transformation spells only needed skill to be cast and not maintain i call it normal. If they need to be maintain like this next publish then getting around the maintaining part would then be a exploit.

    Wow thats long but it's a sunday
     
  33. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    A mage tossing on a quiver that helps them dodge blows seems a little fishy to me. So does using greater cure potions to cure poison above greater poison. The point is, EA has done a lot of fishy things in regards to this game. You can't just pick and choose which 'fishy' thing is right and which is wrong. What they allow today may be deemed a bug tomorrow.
     
  34. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    - lol, mine too ;)
    But it is interesting to me that within our UO community it seems a lot more heart-strings can be pulled into attempted rallies to reverse a change if you use the term 'nerf' rather than 'exploit. And that is why I tend to feel the need to point out when the wrong term is being used in those situations.

    x: hadn't ran into your name in awhile Lady Mana. Good to see it. Reminds me that we need some more in-game events, hehe.
     
  35. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    Ohhh my god could the envious peopel who didnt have the wits and gear to play the templet stop gloating for a while.. dont you need to go feed your greater dragons or something ???