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The diminishing of pvp. Gameplay problem or player problem?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Cetric, Oct 23, 2014.

  1. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I've been laggy as hell, so I've been doing random things when playing rather than what i want to do (PvP). This had caused me to give what happened to PvP in UO some thought... All my opinion and thoughtful memory I suppose... But let's see if anyone sees how this played out the same way I did.

    Let's go on a bit of a history lesson for starters. Original PvP was just fighting and trolling plain and simple. It evolved into a game of good and evil, reds vs. Blues. Groups of a certain type vs. Groups of a ceetain type. Murderers, roleplaying militias and orcs, and simple blues were common. The blues bandedbtogether to fight the reds and the reds preyed on anything that moved. As more people came into the game and complained about the trolling and griefing they felt they were receiving from reds or murderers, trammel was born. As more people flocked to trammel, PvP died down because living in the world with a constant glance over your shoulder was no longer neccesary. The only PvP that occurred was people who wanted to PvP against each other. There was no reward except bragging rights and fun.

    As the game layout changed, PvP continued to die down, but some smart person, despite constant complaint by players who wanted nothing to do with PvP, added power scrolls and stat scrolls to the game and made them only available in fel. PvP was reborn in the form of fighting for these scrolls. Guilds would try to guard against them. Massive packs of blues would try to defend themselves from murderous guilds in order to obtain them. Zergs were born. Teamwork was born. Working together as large units of strangers had its payoff and PvP thrived. The game became more item based yet this element remained a true high point of PvP. More and more non PvP folks complained incessantly that power scrolls should be had in a tram non PvP setting as well without the risk, but the Dev teams understood how vital of a cog this engine was to the PvP and fel community and play style. Thieves were a focal point because they could steal scrolls. Pvmers were a neccesity because they could kill the beasts. Most play styles blended together seemlessly for one common goal.

    Bargains were made as people who did not want to PvP lived with this, and rather than further complain they either worked into a role with PvP guilds to get scrolls, banded together to fight back with numbers or they did their normal gameplay and obtained the gold to buy them in a marketplace setting which was vital to the economy and sense of community. During this time massive numbers in guilds were common, and smaller guilds relied on their skill and teamwork. There were fights that lasted hours, even into the next day. There was no penalty to die besides insurance and a reward for winning in the form of a payout or item you or a guildmate needed.

    As time wore on and powerscrolls became less vital, as many had what they needed, factions was looking for a resurgence. Despite what many people say, factions was a fun engine but it was barely about PvP. Roleplay and teamwork thrived in factions. At the request of players to popularize factions, the faction items were born. This lead many groups to join factions to get the new higher quality gear, somewhat belittling the faction community. Because more people joined factions, stat loss became a concern. Many had a good argument for it being available as it promoted teamwork, others hated it as it meant you took a break after you died. The town fighting element was lost and the only goal was items items items. But the problem with the faction resurgence was that it bred people to want to try to survive more than ever to avoid stat loss. Stealthers and smoke bombs became a staple of the game. Nearly everyone was finding a way to fit ninja into their template to avoid dismount deaths. There was even a period where people carried suicide trapped boxes to avoid the stat loss.

    These new cowardly tactics became the norm, and carried into all facets of PvP, everyone runs away if they feel at any moment they do not have the upper hand. This lead people to regularly not fight without numbers advantages and furthered the degradation of PvP. Some groups would fight outnumbered, relying on stat loss as an equalizer, but this was hardly the norm. Templates with moving shot, bombard, or other items that could insta damage became a neccesity because of all the running away. The true dexer template (without arch/throwing) basically died because killing someone within 1 tile became near impossible (without deathstrike).

    And here we are today with vvv. An engine that is attempting to be a PvP engine but appeal to the masses, which are heavily NOT people who want to PvP. The cowardly tactics remain even with stat loss being nearly eliminated. The vvv towns have no point in the fight besides getting points to buy items, which is just a fancier way of silver for faction items. There is no benefit to winning a town. There is no reward to fight for greater than simple updated artifacts again. Where is the substance? Power scrolls were added to the game without PvP in mind and they turned into one of its focus points because it was an absolute neccesity to get some skills higher.

    The cowardly tactics may be an unsalvageable problem in the current state of the game as it is common place for everyone to run now and live rather than die and get berated by a troll in general chat. But the point about power scrolls is fixable. We need another medium that is strictly fel only, that is so heavily desired and needed like power scrolls were that everyone will want a piece of it. Causing the effect of bands of blues and reds fighting or defending for whatever this medium is. Causing those rich folks who don't want to PvP to do other things, to get the gold, to buy these things. This isn't a cry to add a new half apron with 10hci to fel only, but something much more important. Power scrolls were nice but quickly became a neccesity of the haves vs have nots. If you didn't have 120 weap skill you were at a severe disadvantage. Is this request doable, or has the game ventured to far away from this mindset to even come close to achieving this action again? Will to many complain that whatever it is is overpowered because not everyone has one within 5minutes of its introduction?

    Can PvP have a renassaince period or is it too far gone?

    Let the flames begin!
     
    #1 Cetric, Oct 23, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
    Dorinda, Bo Bo, Lug and 10 others like this.
  2. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    I couldn't agree more.
     
  3. James Moriarty

    James Moriarty Journeyman
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    Its what i said mothns ago, all they needed to do was up the powerscrolls to 130 and decrease the damage/efincy of curent skills so that once you lvl up to 130 it would be equal to what we now have at 120. Prety much what they did when the power scrolls were added. For example back when 100 was the cap i never realy fizeld a level 8 spell all that often. Every arrow hit its mark with 100 etc

    So the quick and easy fix was just to move the goal posts and it would have totaly regenerated PvP again.

    The more complicaed and time consuming fix was VvV and there was never any guarintee VvV would be a sucess.
     
  4. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    Amazing write up, simply hit every point of this great game. I long for that magical event that brings people back to real PvP.
     
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  5. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    HA! I did the suicide box until it was nerfed. That was the ultimate troll. I wonder if it works in VvV?

    There's a lot of things that contributed to the death of pvp. You name any change and it's pissed someone off to the point they found something better to do.

    Right now to me, it's crystal clear the direction the Devs want to take pvp is in a completely different direction of what I could call a fun and entertaining gameplay experience. Add on top of that my constant lag and the lack of pvpers and it's flat out boring to the point I find browser games more enjoyable.
     
  6. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Well stated, in regards to your question, I do think it can be reborn, I'm just not sure how. As a thief I never have gotten into fighting, so I'm not sure where it can and should go, but it would be nice to see the developers hold a round table discussion with past and present PvPers.

    Get an honest discussion started and put a plan into place and act on it. With that said...I won't be holding my breath...la
     
  7. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    It's just like leveling in any other MMO once most people hit cap they raise the cap so people have a reason to still grind away..unfortunetly UO has been stuck in a stagnated state for many years. Yes it's a sandbox game where you can be a ninja fisherman with chivalry but there has to be be some substance to actually play..now I'm not saying "lure" people but give them a reason to actually pvp. I play on chessy most nights, and there's a guild I've never seen ever in Fel. Yes they are newbies by all standards but the have banded together and formed a decent group of guys/girls that can put up a decent fight 3v1..if it wasn't for VvV they would still be farming the Stygian abyss. The same goes for trammel, I didn't feel like paying 175mil for a slither so i power gamed and created a Sampire that could easily solo medusa so I could acquire it. Where there's a will there's a way..the perfect example is this little 4-5 man guild. They wanted to gain the VvV arties and rewards so they made pvp characters and are slowly learning and getting better everyday.

    Skill cap raised to 140 and balanced 2014!!! Make fel fun again!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  8. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    quick and dirty, but needs some thought as to how some skills play out that are based on that level, or how everything fits into skill caps (720?) Seems like it would be relational to leveling in other games which is a thought.

    I'd more prefer something slightly different though, something that has the potential for more staying power, so that 3 years from now we aren't saying "Raise them to 150!!!". I don't pretend to know what that something is but id have some ideas. Whatever it is, if it was an item, make it shard bound (awesome property) so someone cant get it on dead shards and move them for profit. But make it a a damn near necessity to have like power scrolls "were". It just takes the other non-pvp players to realize that other people have a different playstyle that they don't or don't understand.

    My argument with that kind of stuff is this. There is an item in fel that the only way to obtain it is to pvp. it is a lucrative thing and everyone needs it. Its not much different than all these legendary artys, slithers, you name it. I don't want to pvm and get keys for some boss.. however that works.. and go kill lifeless robots. i'll buy that stuff and stick to the other game within the game. They can do the same and buy that fel only item, thing, hot pocket, whatever it is.

    Its just funny to think its taken me all these years to realize how perfect and vital something like power scrolls is/was. Thinking back to working with pvm guilds, hosting public harrowers, fighting from 8pm until way past bed time over a single harrower. I even made a thief for when i was on alone and bored, i'd stealth in, hang out by a champ killer, and wait to snatch a scroll or two lol.
     
    #8 Cetric, Oct 23, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
  9. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    But see the option is there. You chose the sneaky thief route which is fine. I personally chose the the battle alchy thief so I can steal that poor warriors bandages and deadly poison/explosion pot him to death..unfortunetly there's no much incentive for thieves today. Other than deco in trammel. Most theives are scoundrels and are patiently waiting for their resurgence


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  10. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Agreed. Unfortunately, we've been waiting since publish 16 to make our resurgence...la
     
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  11. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    A few things:

    Not really "good and evil," not quite "reds vs. Blues," but whoever was going to fight each other. When a player got killed by a bunch of Dread Lords, any Great Lords showing up weren't "anti-PKs" in all likelihood. They simply hadn't gotten to the innocent player yet, and they were probably going to show up later on their own Dreads.

    The first UO Devs for years adamantly opposed PvP switches or PvP-free zones. What showed them what players wanted, though, as I just told someone, was EverQuest. UO was going to die for certain if it didn't do something, and not just about the lack of housing space. The lack of housing space in large part was because so many had gotten house keys stolen/looted, relegating houses useless but still standing.

    After two years, powerscrolls were an attempt to give PvPers something to fight over, and to a lesser extent encourage people to try PvP. It was a valid explanation then, as it is now, that those who don't want to PvP can buy them from those who do champ spawns.

    The thing about powerscrolls is that it allows those risking PvP to create wealth in the game, rather than merely transferring wealth (or gaining very little from occasional monsters).

    Winning by sheer numbers was nothing new about Publish 16, though. Anyone who encountered the old-time PKs with hundreds of murder counts, back when there were bounties and stat loss, knows that the PKs survived by being in large groups. It's a bit of irony that the introduction of Reputation and stat loss pushed PKs even more into packs, but they rarely ran alone to begin with.

    Maybe it was busier on other shards, but I never saw such long fights except the evening/weekend carnage at the Chaos Shrine (back when reds could get ressed only there), and factions. Even then, on Sonoma it came down to minutes-long fights when Asian guilds raided strongholds. They'd wait for their primetime, when U.S. players were asleep or have to go to work.

    What was it about if not PvP? PvP is not "dueling" or even approximate numbers, and it certainly includes teamwork.

    Avoiding stat loss was nothing new. It had always been around in factions. Mages used to e-bolt themselves for a finishing kill if they didn't think they could survive.

    Running away was nothing new. It too had always been the norm. Five reds at the Brit-Skara crossroads, three blues show up, reds hide or recall. On the other hand, five blues at Shame bloods, three reds show up, blues hide or recall.

    I don't know how long you've been playing, but moving shot was a resurrection of what had been in the game years before. Until the combat revamp of early 1999, archers fired while moving.

    With regard to VvV, we'll see if it persists now that silver has been fixed. Before the occupying change, it had the problem of giving too much power to stealthers, and even more to whoever arrived early and was unchallenged for the first two minutes. Even simple hiding was too much. Before this new publish, my mage was completely alone once and nearly winning a town for the first few minutes. When I saw a number of orange names approaching, I took off, evaded, and cast invis in a quiet spot. They didn't have someone with tracking, or at least not around where I was, and we played hide-and-seek for the next 16 minutes. Eventually I won the city anyway. With claiming altars and stealing sigils, they still couldn't catch up.
     
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  12. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Except, that E-bolt takes longer to cast & it's slightly delayed you would be better off keeping yourself alive with a G-heal or two....
     
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  13. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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  14. Lore Denin (GL)

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    I still do alright..

    But as to your question, I'll go back to UO renesiance fiction and the start of Factions... The barrier between Felucca and Trammal was called the Virtue Shield. In Thoery if an evil faction gained complete control of Felucca, the Virtue barrier could be broken and evil could enter Trammal.

    Why not! We talk about an Advanced shard in siege, we are an advanced game and gaming population. Lets stop dreaming up ways to get people from Trammal to venture into Felucca, no more talk of items, skills or stats. Lets have real consequences!!

    Have the new VvV system be the start of something new. Allow people play Vice and Virtue. Allow Virtue players to keep the Virtue Shield intact by claiming towns and cities in VvV (via points) and thus Trammal safe.... And let Vice players attempt to take control of Felucca and then move into Trammal.

    You want to live in a safe world, then you better go and earn points for Virtue so the shield remains in place... Tired of your "Red" stuck looking at the same four walls for the past 17 years... go join Vice and break into Luna and cause some REAL trouble....

    Insurance, no house keys etc etc. These things are all long gone. 17 years of gameplay has eliminated the griefing issues that plagued (and yes they were really really terrible) everyone in those early days.

    Few people are going to jump on my crazy ship but pvp would have impact and meaning both rp wise but through the game mechanics of the Fel ruleset.

    -Lore's Player
     
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  15. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    +10 skill scroll anyone? = Harrower loot revamp = PVP.
     
  16. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Exactly, which is why it was more than a bit irrational. I never feared stat loss that much to give up.
     
  17. Tranquility

    Tranquility Journeyman

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    Sheep meet carrot.

    That worked so great in the past which is why they implemented factions 2 Times over and now VvV which isn't even a month old and yet here we have PvPers that are already on Uhall crying that PvP needs more attention.:rolleyes:

    Want you want is another monopoly in which to bilk the vast majority of the playerbase while you laugh all the way to the bank. In other words you want exclusive access to content.

    The amount of DEV resources that have gone into appeasing PvP and improving PvP over the past 2 years is staggering. Disproportionately so, the DEVS need to lay off PvP for awhile given attention to other areas of the game. Time for an Orc/Dwarf/Halfling/Centaur race Expansion, farmville expansion, more peerless, bug fixes, High res update or some other content not pertaining to PvP.

    Changes to PvP appears to be one failed system after another which is taking up the vast majority of the DEVS limited resources. Nothing is ever good enough for the PvPers unless it involves giving them a monopoly of some kind.

    Raising the skill cap above 120 is an absolutely terrible idea!

    Finally, with the introduction of VvV I think it's high time we add powerscrolls to Trammel Spawns and level the playing field so new players can experience the fun of spawning.
     
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  18. SpyderBite

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    No. We don't need to neuter the new players before they've even had a chance to sharpen their teeth a bit.
     
  19. Logrus

    Logrus UO Legend
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    i think that one of the issues in pvp is that it did get left by the wayside during the game development. Between Uos inception and now most changes have been reactive and not necessarily proactive. This is with pvp combat itself not necessarily the reasons. Initially there was no mechanism for pvp without criminality, until order/ chaos. Factions was a fun experiment on abyss shard which embraced just chaotic mayhem before formalization and structuring for prod shards.
    Now whether its the community or mechanics or items, death in pvp while having grown more inconsequential has definitely seemed to be something to be avoided at all costs.
    I think the state is thhe sum of the changes in the community as well as the side effect of changes in game in general not necessrily pvp targeted.

    Can it be salvaged, maybe. either way i think that it will would take quite a bit of work but also there will be much gnashing of teeth during the process.
     
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  20. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    I had said it before, VvV should be allowed in Trammel, when it stable and balanced in Fel. Sure in Trammel, we can't have people go orange for being to long in a town, that part need to stay in Fel. but going orange if attacking or healing a VvV should be ok as long you get a popup like the crim popup, you get if you try to attack a blue in Fel. Also here, you should be able to turn of the popup so you can join the fun without the popup asking if you do mean it.
    It's fine we have people, who in no way want to risk PvP interact but there should be a bonus for being open to PvP with being in VvV. I would say, in Tramel, let the ones with VvV turned on get the Fel bonus, 1000 extra luck and 2x fame and resource drop. Yes I know, some will feel this are very unfair, but we can't keep letting UO die because we think sheep are more important than wolves.
    You could even allow drop of 120 scrolls in Trammel if you are in VvV or at least 115. The ones who do not want the risk can still bind the lower level scrolls to 115 and then to 120 and be total safe for PvP as long they do not turn VvV on and do not cancel the warning for being orange from healing or attacking VvV.
    Lets allow UO to be UO but still keep the few who don't want anything to do with PvP to be safe.
    VvV is a new system but far from done yet. It can be the PvP switch we should had had instead of the trammel/fel split
     
    #20 FrejaSP, Oct 23, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
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  21. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    As it was said a few times in this thread, the only real way to flourish pvp again is to add a 125 or 130 skill cap in place of the 120 skills, and increase the overall skill cap to something like 750. Its something everyone will NEED to upgrade to no matter if they are pvmers or pvpers. It will give people a reason to log in, because now all of their characters need a little revamp. Make them only attainable on fel and bam... it WILL flourish again.

    We will never get monthly new content like some other games are able to do. We are all stuck in a limbo of waiting for the next quick fix. Give us something like this.... it will take months or even years to re-complete characters, and it will breathe a whole new life in to pvp once again.
     
  22. SpyderBite

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    As always.. change the game mechanics instead of the behavior.

    In the beginning PvP consisted of players who adapted quickly to the combat system slaughtering lemmings who barely knew how move w,a,s,d.

    Then the lemmings developed skills and became more of a challenge to those who had previously dominated.

    Wonderful fights ensued.

    Game mechanics were changed.

    People were frustrated.

    Those people were divided.

    People on one side didn't have enough opponents. And people on the other side got bored. Developers created more Sim's content to entertain the latter. Yet they still got bored.

    People on the other side fought until it became a stale mate. So the developers dangled a magical donut over their land. And people from the opposite side came in numbers but were attacked by an influx of bored people. Many cried.

    Here we are.. there is no in between. I'm not playing the Trammel/Fel card here. I'm just saying.. its two different sets of play styles. However, people who PvP just want to fight and have fun. Even if that's killing innocents. People who want to craft, and gather resources and aren't interested in dying want more. They want double resources. They want champ spawns. They want what the other side has but they don't want the risk.

    The bottom line is.. real PvP can still flourish in UO. People just need to go out and do it. Forget about how uber your suit or weapons are. Just go out and fight. Its really just that simple. You (on the prodo shards) have your insurance and unmeasurable amounts of gold. There is nothing to lose. Use a few of those 20 soulstones on your porch and go crazy. Have fun. It doesn't hurt when your UO character dies.

    In fact. Some of my best friends for the past 18 years have been people who have grief killed and dry looted me. Those friendships all started with a "Hello, rez please?"
     
  23. Captn Norrington

    Captn Norrington Trade Forum Administrator
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    Although raising the skill cap is a wonderful idea, it probably wouldn't work out how we think it would. I would think everyone would just buy SOT's to raise their skills the new 5 or 10 points then go back to being inactive.
     
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  24. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    There are still a few crafting skills that need powerscrolls, but don't think they should come from spawn. Then we hiding that could need powerscrolls.
    Instead of 750 max cap, I would like to changes the way skills work. Lets say, you have 120 blacksmith, that will give you a 20 skills bonus to mining and tinkering so to get 100 tinkering, you would only need 80 real skills. Same with Tailoring, let it give 20 bonus skills to carpentry and fletching. Do the same with others of the crafting skills.
    I would be careful with the combat skills as it easy mess up PvP with to many skill points but if the bonus goes to some of the skills we have hard to put in a template, like detect hidden, tracking, hidding, anatomy, etc. or let the bonus go to some of the gathering skills.
    I would like to see a combat players have room for some crafting and a crafter to be able to have room for a little combat skills.
     
  25. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    The fact that there are soul stones now probably eliminated the need for a raised skill cap. By increasing the cap, you'll end up creating a whole new way for people to avoid any reliance on others...la
     
  26. SpyderBite

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    Always the changing the mechanics. It's s sandbox game. Be creative. If that doesn't work for you, then go play WoW where everything is managed for you.

    If the developers were to say "ok. We're done. Good luck and peace out", I suspect people would stop begging their Game Nanny to make the game fun for them and start getting creative about making the game fun with the resources they have.
     
  27. Picus at the office

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    I don't understand why people have not made a char to PvP. I can understand not wanting to have a whole account built for it but I can't understand not having some portion involved. I fondly recall my very first battle that I didn't end up dead in years back while killing harpies(go back that far people) and it changed everything. I sure didn't win, simply had a draw but it was epic some 16 years ago. Hard to describe how fun PvP is, I guess you just have to do it.
     
  28. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    That concept of adding powerscrolls for skills that don't have them, and giving those skills more purpose with higher levels is a very interesting thought as it doesn't require some gigantic great deal of work, but it would be a very big boost to several aspects of the game, including templates and game mechanics.

    These skills do not have power scrolls. Some of this could create new and more interesting templates - here is some ideas, that i find interesting.

    Alchemy - Continue up the EP ladder, 80% ep is the current cap Make 100% attainable at 120. Cap the damage from supernovas(in pvp)/conflags(in pvp)/heal pots. 120 alchemists cure poison 100%. potion weight is back to 1 stone.
    Begging - No idea, i've never used it
    Camping - Maybe post GM camping allows some benefits like anyone in your "camp area" gets a luck bonus/damage bonus/buff
    Cartography - No idea, never used this one myself
    Detect Hidden - At 120 Detect, you can SEE all hidden people, but they don't know it. Use of the skill reveals all hidden people in a wide area.
    Forensic Eval - Need some thinking on this one
    Herding - 120 expands the herd-able animal base or something
    Hiding - 120 Hiding allows you to NOT be seen by a 120 detective
    Item ID - needs thought or removal - useless skill now a days
    Lumberjacking - Expands on the current damage bonus to axe weapons. Maybe add a new wood type achievable at higher levels.
    Mining - Add a new ingot type (same total as another ingot type but give it a property or a different resist layout. Maybe make it like heartwood for 5hci/10dmg, random properties from enhancement) Only achievable at 120 mining.
    Lockpicking - Higher success rate above GM. Maybe new higher level lock/puzzle only doable at 120 picking.
    Poisoning - Scary thought. My thought is change around the skill layout so 120 is needed for lethal... but that is gunna get flamed hard.
    Remove Trap - higher level traps/edit success rates.
    Snooping - edit success rates, allow 120 snoopers to peer into locked boxes.
    Taste ID - needs thought or removal - useless skill now a days
    Tracking - expand the tile range of tracking at higher levels. 120 gets a bump of 5 additional tiles. makes for a much more interesting tracker for dungeons/VvV towns if you could "track the whole town" and know that there is 5 people on the other side of town.


    My favorites of these ideas:

    The Detect Hidden/Hiding:
    this makes for an interesting template thought process. it would give initiative for someone to have the skill points needed for a "Detective" as a lazy stealther (without 120 hiding) would be seen by a detective without even knowing it. Some guy thinks he is smart using a "turkey feather" or "invis charges" item while fighting, but the detector mage keeps attacking him.. lol. Similiar to the GM spiritspeaker seeing ghosts. To counter, you need to invest in 120 hiding. this forces people to find another 20 skill points in their templates for stealthers to avoid detectives. They would still be subject to being revealed by the use of detect hidden, but that would take the detective tracking them or knowing they were there.

    Mining:
    Adding an ingot type similar to what heartwood does for wood, but requires 120 mining to obtain and 120 smith to use would be a neat and simple concept to add

    Lumberjacking:
    adding a wood type (different resists, maybe a slightly altered property) as well as enhancing the damage output of an Axer in pvp and pvm would be a fun concept.


    There are several crafting skills that don't have powerscrolls either that could be added for success rates, runics, etc. these would continue to come from a BoD system though. These coupled with a Mining and Lumberjacking change could prove to be yet another crafting boost.



    Not only would these revitalize power scrolls and the pvp associated with them, but it would revitalize several professions, templates, and play styles. People would be out mining and lumberjacking again. Players might consider actually playing a detective as it can be a major advantage against stealthers. alchemists would be seen as a overly useful skill to avoid nox mages and dexers a little better and making potions weigh less for an invested alchmists would allow the use of conflags and exp potions in pvm as a damage output option that doesnt take so much weight.

    *Make SoTs not usable after 110 Skill* people will hate it, but its the right thing to do.
    oh and lastly - make power scrolls/stat scrolls shard bound =)
     
    #28 Cetric, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
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  29. SpyderBite

    SpyderBite Sage
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    And here we go again.. Let's change the game instead of changing our behavior.

    Man. Freud would have a blast with this forum.
     
  30. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Adding powerscrolls to skills that don't have them is new content, it has purpose. If the game didn't change in 17 years would anyone still be playing? No.. It is probably something that should of been done a long time ago actually..
     
  31. SpyderBite

    SpyderBite Sage
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    You mean less people than play now? I find that hard to believe. ;)

    Rogue hasn't changed in 25 years. Still it's the most popular pc game today. Go figure.
     
  32. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    The problem with 120 in each skill is you have room for less different skills out of the 720 cap.
    If you make it so they support each others so a main skill give bonus to 1-2 support skills, you will spare some skill points like swordsmanship giving bonus to tactic so 120 in both will only count as 220 skill points as you get a 20 skills point to tactics. If you add healing and anatomy, healing will give anatomy 20 skill bonus, so it cost you 440 skills points for this 4 skills instead of 480. This way, we can give bonus to template types. Same with crafting. In old days, you could have 7x GM skills, now you can have 5 x 120 + 1x 100, that's only 6 skills, I would like to get back to be able to have 7 skills.
     
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  33. Fingers

    Fingers Adventurer

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    Risk? Risk? What risk? Theres more risk in Tramms that in Fel. In fel, you simply dont carry what can be looted, except for pvp stuffs. In tramms, Im carrying loot from dead mobs, when I get overwhelmed and it gets looted. Now in a lot of areas I must seek out a res, cause they arent handy, Ive boned, or worse many many many times. Risk? Its in Tramms way more so than Fel. The only "risk" left in fel is the childish chat channel BS after said ganker says he killed you 1V1 when in fact he seems to have 3 toons doing exactly the same thing ! You want me in Fel, someplace I flat despise, then heres a suggestion. Im working the champ, and your hiding waiting to spring when boss pops and Im near red lined. Your first attack FILLS my health bar, now its an EVEN (well, somewhat) steven. Flame me all you want, its just my suggestion. It prolly wouldnt work anyway, I just dont wanna pvp. (Fel= drop all insurance, no blessed stuff, go back to pub 16, Ill break out the dang thief and i WILL die in fel, a LOT, but man what fun itll be!!!!)
     
  34. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    That would be severely complicated though. The current give and take setup of templates adds more diversity, which in many ways, is a good thing. You can elect to run 120 weap skill and 90 tactics 0 anatomy and have low damage output but fit variety, or you can max out everything and have big damage output but be limited. that Variety is a good thing.
     
  35. Fingers

    Fingers Adventurer

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    Its a fairly simple answer....dont want to, dont need to, dont have to, dont care to. Possibly difficult to comprehend for some, but its still the answer. Theres no point, no objective, no reward. Powerscrolls? Pffttt....I dont care you made mad "bank" from me buying them, its game money I spent playing, enjoying and looting in Tramms. Heck Ive still got toons that are not scrolled and they do just dandy without em ! Tramms was a great idea but implemented poorly. It saved UO, but it denied PK'rs their "forced into that style" victims. Uo has made 50 million attempts to get pvp "going" again, but it has failed because they have not supplied unwanted victims. There is no "fix" for pvp.
     
  36. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    That's do not work well on Siege and in Fel, where you need both combat skills and some crafting or gathering skills.

    A lumberjack should be able to defend him self and maybe craft bows. A miner too, should be able to defend himself and maybe be a blacksmith too or a tinker or a stone crafter with carpentry.
    Bring the overland spawn back so crafters need a way to defend them self.
    An other thing that mess it up on Siege is, you can use jewelry to get missing skills and get above the 720 skill cap, on Siege it's bad when skills and template depend of items as items get lost easy
     
  37. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    I'm not asking for people to join PvP if the viewpoint is being a victim, why would I want to play with someone who is just going to take the ball and go home? I'd rather you win 50% of the fights and have a good time. Without trying it's hard to conclude you are, or are not, missing something.

    I never brought up "mad bank" and I hardly sold any of the scrolls I got and have piles of them sitting around. If you don't have intrest don't bother to join, really I can't see why you felt the need to post either.
     
  38. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    One of the things that makes me most hopeful for some return of pvp in a quasi regular form is the fact that VvV operates as a guild/alliance structured system. One note missing from all the above posts, and I was surprised by it, was that period of time starting during Order/Chaos and running until shortly after Renaissance where guilds still had stones and "warring" each other was a thing.

    Lots of guilds benefited and it was a stat measured on MyUO.

    I think we are seeing with the right type of incentive, folks who wouldn't normally consider pvp, and not just the combat type, can not only be lured into that environment, but a good many will take to the challenge. I've said for years the guild system needs some built in incentives, maybe in the vague sense of "soooon" this is something that can be looked at more closely.
     
  39. Fingers

    Fingers Adventurer

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    My responding isnt about your "need" Picus. Its a public forum, I can respond pretty much to anything I desire. You stated you didnt understand why people didnt have a pvp toon, and I offered a response. So, I added the mad bank to it, someone else said something about it and I kilt two champs with one spelll. Sue me. You could take your own advice and not responded as well, but then you wouldnt have been able to respond with your non-understanding about why I responded. Hope that clears that up.
    As far as you not asking for people to join pvp, well, original poster said "But the point about power scrolls is fixable. We need another medium that is strictly fel only, that is so heavily desired and needed like power scrolls were that everyone will want a piece of it." And your response was ..."Amazing write up, simply hit every point of this great game". Sounds contradictory, no? You have your opinion, posted and noted. I have mine. How about the same?
     
  40. Fingers

    Fingers Adventurer

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    My vote is no. Anyone who wants to pvp can go to the area to pvp, not pvp in pvm area. To be equally fair, then I should be able to go to fel UNATTACKABLE cause Im not orange nor red. Surely you can agree the game should try to find a 50/50 balance, right?
     
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  41. Rolo

    Rolo Visitor

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    I think pvp is in its current state because of both bad development in UO and the players themselves. I wont go as far back as pre aos but I think the problems really started shortly after aos. When 5/6 mage casting and 200 plus dex dexers dominated the game people quit pvping. Only a select few had those types of items and if one didn't it was frustrating. Add in the fact that certain players(not all but enuff) became real jerks and the greed factor started coming into play. The devs were real slow to fix the imbalances.

    Eventually a pretty good balance was achieved in the game but then lo and behold we now had super archers. With the beefing up of stealth this became flat out ridiculous. One and 2 hit kills by players ticked players off yet again. As annoying and imbalanced as archers were, the game was made even worse with spellweaving. Not only did you have 1 to 2 hit archers, but you now had insta kill word of death in which some players had both gimp skill sets on a character. This annoyed even more people.

    The list of imbalnces could go on and on from over the years but its always been exploited by players, and devs have always been slow to react. The chat feature doesn't help either as the current ultra gimps are tamers running around with mystic, archery, a dreadmare and a bake. These characters do the same rinse repeat tactics where if all goes well for them is a pretty quick kill, and if it doesn't work right away just run off at break neck speeds. When it does work they just never shut up in chat.

    Pvpers seem to have the mindset to run the lamest easiest to play, easiest to run away with templates. Chasingplayers all over the place is not fun. Especially when it seems that there is no consistant speed among players and there are certainly players with more "tools" than other player. I also feel the whole rock scissors paper thing to be annoying. Play a parry mage to deal with a no skill thrower or archer or dexer etc. and your at a big disadvantage to skilled mystics, nox mages etc. It would be nice if pvp was balanced at least decently where at least most temps had to stay on screen and weren't rewarded so much for running away. To me good pvp is pvp where both temps have to stay on screen and be played in a well thought out, and experienced way in which blows are exchanged back and forth.

    There are a ton of examples to use about pvp imbalances over the years. Anyone that is a long time pvper knows what they are.So whats killed pvp imo is slow reaction from the devs, a bad mindset from the players, and just a flat out drop in the numbers of people actually playing the game.
     
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  42. Tranquility

    Tranquility Journeyman

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    I can't help but shake my head at amazement at those advocating something that has been proven not to work.

    Let's make changes to the Entire game to appease and placate 10% of the playerbase which PvP.

    In 2015 we can raise powerscrolls to 130 (And when that doesn't work)....
    In 2017 we can raise powerscrolls to 150 (And when that doesn't work)....
    In 2020 we can raise powerscrolls to 180 (And when that doesn't work)....

    And on and on and on....

    :rolleyes::coco::thumbdown:
     
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  43. Lug

    Lug Lore Master
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    Nice write up, but I think everyone is missing the elephant in the room here - Cheating.

    It doesn't matter what pvp system is in place. Once new pvpers get a taste of what "real" pvp is about they quit. They don't want to have to download this, install that, or modify anything to pvp in UO.
     
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  44. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    Agree, shifting the game to focus around exclusive rewards or similar which require PvP playstyle was an unattractive enough option to the developers of WOW, which was a game with multi-millions, because hardcore PvP players were only a minority of the overall players. I can't imagine it's anything but less so in a case like UO today, with so few players and with PvP players being similarly a small minority. I can't imagine there's justification to the money you'd have to spend on developing such a change vs. the people it would please or bring back to the game or keep in the game.

    I suspect it's a very simple economic reality today that there probably isn't justification to the small team working on UO to do anything that stands to add gameplay to less than 100% of the small playerbase.

    As a side note, I'm extremely against the idea of gradually increasing how high powerscrolls can take skills. All that will do is create an ever shrinking number of skills used on a given template for optimal min/max power potential. We'd all eventually be running around with only 3 skills on a character in order to keep up or play the game at all... it doesn't sound fun at all. It's bad enough right now, imho, where simply being a caster or a combat character isn't enough, you have to splice in all of these other skills to hope to compete today.
     
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  45. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    its more about making templates possible. sometimes as little as 10 skill can make the difference as to if a template will work or not. i think a plus 10 skill scroll would open up some nice options, while not being oped. even a plus 20 would be ok. considering some of the gear now 10 or 20 isnt a huge deal when you can fit 60 - 100 in pretty easily with some of the new items / loot.
     
  46. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    I skipped a lot of the replies, but in the ones I read I didn't see the few reasons I think PvP has decreased and people play the cowardly templates.

    For the cowardly templates it is because it takes so much gold and grinding to make a suit. After you spend so long making a PvP suit it needs to be updated because of some minor change made to UO. We all know for PvP in today's UO the gear is extremely important.

    The other reason for the stealth templates in my not so humble humble opinion is because people now have jobs and families. Back in the "good 'ole days" the majority of us were in high school or college. We didn't have a lot of responsibilities so we could spend hours and hours PvPing. Now people don't log in as much, if at all, so since there is a lower population it is harder to find PvP and then it snowballs.

    The third reason is because there isn't reason to PvP like Cetric said. My concern is that if you just add new power scrolls to Fel then in 6 - 12 months when everyone gets the scrolls they need we will be in the same boat. The reason factions were so fun, even though you had to guard the sigils for 24 hours in a row, was because before AOS there was a HUGE need for them. People actually bought ore for weapons, they needed regs for their mages, and so on. The only faction vendor that people needed after AOS was bottles for potions. What needed to happen, and I mentioned this 2 years ago, was replace the faction vendors with new vendors that sells the essences for imbuing and make it so you can only use faction silver on them. That would of encouraged faction PvP with a use of the silver from fighting and encourage holding sigils so you would have access to the vendor. Of course for this to would they would of had to turn off faction monsters and make silver bound to the character that earned it.
     
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  47. Zuckuss

    Zuckuss Order | Chaos
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    Still to this day, strategy, teamwork and communication can beat any group of cheaters.
     
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  48. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    The devs have all but admitted there is nothing they can do about 3rd party programs. Therefore i've ignored that element as i don't see it changing
     
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  49. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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    Honestly there is only one thing that can revive PvP in UO. We are all blind if we don't see it. There must be great enough rewards to entice new blood into it. With VvV for instance we have a chance to do just that. If the Devs make it a goal to bring in new blood we have a chance. That means that the rewards for playing VvV must be greater than the rewards for hunting in candy land.

    That is it plain and simple.
     
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  50. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I don't see any reason that something couldn't be added to the game that affects everyone but is based in fel for a pvp boost. A few people had an otherworldly idea of adding power scrolls to 130 and up, and while it is something i don't think it is the right thing to do what so ever. We aren't trying to lure sheep to fel to be forced to fight. As i said in my remarks about powerscrolls, no one is/was forced to go get them, you can happily buy them if you dont want to be a part of it. This is the exact same thing that happens to a a person who only wants to pvp, but has to take part in the other parts of this game for just about everything else. I dont want to be FORCED to go get a slither from medusa... and you know what, that is absolutely fine.. because i can just buy one from someone who enjoys killing medusa. Pvp is bigger in this game than most realize or care to admit, because it has a very diverse pvp system that is not available in any other game. Much of the playerbase that is in that "hover around the game" mode... hasn't quit but doesn't play... participates in pvp. I don't have numbers to back that, but i know enough people on both sides of the fence to see the difference.

    It also just seems that the people who do NOT want to pvp, come in squabling that theyw ant to do the same stuff, and get the same stuff, without pvping. Yet if a pvper comes out and says they want to do stuff without being forced to pvm or sit in some dumb event, they just throw up their arms like you are crazy. Have the foresight to see both sides of the fence. If it is available in both facets and the item is a great necessity, then people just take the "easy route" to getting it and won't fight for it.

    If UO just wants to continue to be built around em events, catering to easy mode, and killing mindless opponents with horrible ai and 50000 hit points then let me know so i can get the hell out of here. Like Logrus pointed out - with insurance and several other game modifications, death is as pointless as it ever was, yet people continue to need to avoid death more than ever. Is this the "play the game on god mode mentality" or something else? People used to not have a problem with dying and loosing everything, yet you die now with an empty back pack and its the end of the world (DO NOT MAKE ME PVP DEV LORDS!! for i fear losing 7k insurance gold to some guy who killed me while i was killing the mindless beast for new deco)
     
    #50 Cetric, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
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