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The Evil Virtue System

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Zyon Rockler, Nov 5, 2010.

  1. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    I was just thinking that the Virtue System is based on only good characters. What about Evil roleplayers? Why not give them something to strive for?

    For example: Compassion, doing good deeds. You take someone from one city to another and they thank you, you gain in Compassion.

    You see someone being held captive, you kill the captors and free the captured, and you are rewarded.

    That's the Good Virtue System. Now how about the Evil Virtue System where you lose Compassion but it works the same way, only it's more fitting for roleplaying evil. Instead of escorting someone from one town to another, you lure them outside of town and you kill them and you take the gold off of their corpse and that's how you receive your payment.

    Or, you come across a captive. You kill the spawn and then you kill the prisoner.

    How about helping a new player? That's the good thing. Now the bad Virtue, You connect with the new player, you trick them into going to Fel and you kill them. Can't get more Evil than that.

    And, the same with all other Virtues. Just reverse the process, same reward!
     
  2. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    If you are good, your reward is compassion gains and some gold for the good deed...

    If you are evil, your reward is the gold obtained from their corpse...

    If there were an anti-virtue reward as well, then it seems to me that you'd get equal reward to the good guys because of the gold/items from the corpse... that hardly seems fair.

    Besides... being evil should not be rewarded - it should be punished... shouldn't it?
     
  3. Megilhir

    Megilhir Guest

    Understanding that Good is Bad and Bad is Good and I am so Good I am Bad; I think there is a logic to the OP post in pursuance of attaining Dread Lord status.

    Although..., when I logged onto my Dread Lord on Arirang I found all his Fame and Karma zeroed out.

    He has no title now!

    Weird huh?
     
  4. Annonymous User

    Annonymous User Journeyman
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    No it shouldn't be punished, if you are stronger you should be rewarded. Just because I don't hold the exact same moral values as you do, does not make it just to punish me.
     
  5. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    It would work the same, just as you gain in Compassion, say you have 2 blue lines, you would lose in Compassion. Say you have 2 red lines, both would benefit you the same but the way you would achieve them would be different.

    And, of course, Virtue Titles, such as, Not Very Compassionate, or Knight of Hatred, would be titles that are earned.

    Evil should not be rewarded, I agree but Evil gives instant gratification and its' consequence not felt until fate rolls its' die.

    So, you would have to assume that someone following this path, would probably already have certain limitations. Such as, being red or grey, but i'm sure other things could be added to penalize the character to make it much more interesting.
     
  6. canary

    canary Guest

    In a virtual world where the Virtues are paramount to being the 'best' character you can be, it would seem odd to put an anti Virtue system in place.

    I think in UO's long history being bad has been rewarding enough for those to choose that path: and heck, we still are waiting on the rest of the 'good guy' Virtues. Let's wrap those babies up before we even should start a dialogue on the merits of a bad guy version. OK?
     
  7. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    I think we should talk about them because it might give us insight, considering they're identical in ways. Plus, finishing the system would mean nothing else would ever be added to it.

    Virtue wars are interesting in ways, where maybe someone who is Virtueous In Evil could gain certain powers, depending on how many of the Virtues they control and combinations of such, where an icon may be made available to use a type of power or maybe just a bonus that is automatically given.

    For example: Max Evil Virtue Avatar fights Max Good Virtue Avatar, damage bonus increase given to both.

    Or maybe, after all of the Virtues are mastered, you're given an icon Destroy Good or Smyte Evil, that allows you a special move to do 75% damage to any creature, once per day, including players.

    But, something more interesting, perhaps, to cause Good and Evil to clash in more extraordinary ways.
     
  8. canary

    canary Guest

    It isn't that you are being punished, just not rewarded.

    There is a difference.
     
  9. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    The inherient problem here is that even 'bad' people in UO get to use the 'GOOD' virtures.

    As it is, people whine about their reds not being able to go here or there...

    For me, it's kind of like the whole power scroll arguement.

    If you want the power scrolls, you either go to fel or pay the gold for them.

    You want to go to tram, stop pk'ing or just log out and log in your blue.

    Seems to be the bad guys still get the better end of the bargin.

    Finally, they haven't even finished doing the good virtues.
     
  10. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    1. Might doesn't make right.
    2. The foundation of Ultima is the virtues, there should be a benfit for them.
     
  11. Megilhir

    Megilhir Guest

    One overlooked aspect is that without villiany there is limited heroics.

    What would The Light be without Shadow to provide it purpose?

    Care Bears go camping?

    Some of the best role playing and fiction has a growing, developing counterpart friction.

    Without Sauron, who is Gandalf?

    Without Evil there can be no Good and everything becomes palid.

    Besides, I like the Paladin concept (not the UO application) that one man, covered in scars still strives with his last ounce of courage and is willing to march into Hell for aHeavenly cause.

    (Paraphrase: To Dream the Impossible Dream; Man of La Mancha)

    YouTube - The Impossible Dream-Man of La Mancha
     
  12. canary

    canary Guest

    No one is stopping anyone from playing an evil character. The cornerstone of the Ultima series, however, is the Virtues.

    Following these Virtues, then, should come with a bonus.
     
  13. Dakkon Blackblade

    Dakkon Blackblade Seasoned Veteran
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    You are not addressing the point at all, no one is stopping anyone from playing a good character, part of being a good character is not expecting to be rewarded for the good you do.

    The point made was a good one, evil characters are selfish and of course are rewarded for it more often, it's supposed to be easy to be evil, that's why being good is so hard, and why great heroes are praised as high as they are, heroes are a rare breed.
     
  14. canary

    canary Guest

    From a player perspective, however, that doesn't cut it.

    From a RP perspective, yes. But its not feasible from a player standpoint.

    And tbh UO has already set up enough storylines that benefit evil players over good.
     
  15. Annonymous User

    Annonymous User Journeyman
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    and the winners of wars don't write history correct ?
     
  16. red sky

    red sky Sage
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    Reading some Nietzsche aye?
     
  17. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    That's not a question of holding moral values... that's a lack of moral values...
     
  18. canary

    canary Guest

    Indeedy.
     
  19. red sky

    red sky Sage
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    "To those human beings who are of any concern to me I wish suffering, desolation, sickness, ill-treatment, indignities - I wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-contempt, the torture of self-mistrust, the wretchedness of the vanquished: I have no pity for them, because I wish them the only thing that can prove today whether one is worth anything or not - that one endures."
    (The Will to Power, p 481)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf06WJQ4FnE
     
  20. Megilhir

    Megilhir Guest

    Mor-al
    –adjective
    1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.


    And here we see the pendulum. From a logic perspective there are not consistent moral values. There are shared moral values between people and cultures, but not universally accepted right and wrong.

    In support of this statement. consider the action of ending another human’s life.

    Some call it murder in any situation.

    Others, nation-states at war for example, disagree.

    Though I advocate neither position, I use them to illustrate the dichotomy which can, and does, exist.

    Thus stating that “I don't hold the exact same moral values as you do” doesn’t mean he lacks moral values, as the value of a moral is based on the societal norm, in this case most likely Indo-European.

    In the example provided there are numerous societies and situation where might does make right and it is accepted. Because of the ToS for this board I will not specifically identify which societies. But if you have read this far with understanding you can probably hazard a fairly accurate assessment.

    This segues into “Just” and justice, which again, is a very cultural and societal influenced perspective.

    In order to frame the argument I suggest we apply the greater western influenced fiction narratives, which UO tends to represent, as the framework for the discussion.

    With that framework the emergence of a greater evil becomes viable.

    Much of the storyline purses this very tenet. The Original Poster (OP) presented exactly this perspective. The only real variant is that the OP suggested players should be able to pursue the “Evil” path and be rewarded with statistical performance enhancements in the same manner as the “Good” players are.

    Just some philosophical discussion on a Friday afternoon while the clock ticks before the next conference.
     
  21. Annonymous User

    Annonymous User Journeyman
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    No I just get tiered of people, and society in general trying to press there ideals on to people who do not want anything to do with them.

    Seriously though, Im going to withdraw from this conversation before it turns in to rant / troll fest.
     
  22. Annonymous User

    Annonymous User Journeyman
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    How do you define what is moral and what is not ?

    is it moral to protect the weak, or is it moral to cast them out and allow them to become strong or stop polluting the gene-pool? Why should humanity be made to suffer because of the inherent weakness in some people ?
     
  23. canary

    canary Guest

    Because you should not be rewarding anti social behavior.

    And for those that do not 'get it', no I don't mean running around by yourself at Yew Fel Gate (yes, people have thought that before here on stratics).

    From your local wikipedia:

    Anti-social behaviour (with or without hyphen) is behaviour that lacks consideration for others and that may cause damage to society, whether intentionally or through negligence, as opposed to pro-social behaviour, behaviour that helps or benefits society (Berger 2003, p. 302).

    This game has had enough of that, tyvm. The last thing it needs is yet another lame excuse to promote it.
     
  24. canary

    canary Guest

    I'm not sure what should be a fun game with player versus player combat really equates with the basics of the nazi regime or eugenics, lol.
     
  25. Annonymous User

    Annonymous User Journeyman
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    Wow you get touchy on this ?
    allready a troll fest

    here you say:
    Anti-social behaviour (with or without hyphen) is behaviour that lacks consideration for others and that may cause damage to society,

    here I say:
    Natural selection is differential survival and / or reproduction of individuals due to phenotypic differences. If the phenotypic differences among individuals are attributable to genetic differences (i.e., heritable), the population will evolve in response to selection.

    and to further solidify my argument a link:
    The Darwin Awards


    care to take it to the next step ?
     
  26. Megilhir

    Megilhir Guest

    Though your quote is accurate, your topic lacks validity when applied to the OP.

    The OP was about the “Evil” path being rewarded with statistical performance enhancements in the same manner as the “Good” path is.

    Player verse Environment (PvE) is the topic focus, not social or antisocial human interaction.

    Now you can go in any direction as suits your fancy, as we all can. But the original premise differs vastly from your response.

    As an aside, logical debate is simply that and should not be considered a troll effort. Personal attacks or degradation are troll attempts and merely evidence the weakness of the troll's intellectual capability, which is why the troll analogy, along with the variant of the trawling action, indeed exists.
     
  27. canary

    canary Guest

    It's not a troll fest. I'm stating that the game should not further reward in game 'bad behavior' by way of the anti Virtues. Historically, UO (and onlines in general) tend to promote anti-social behavior in certain players. The foundation of the game was based on the Virtues... that is the cornerstone of Ultima Online lore.

    You are entitled to feel as you do. I'm telling you, this is a game, not RL 'survival of the fittest'. I'm not telling you that you can't have an opinion, I'm telling you why I feel like I do. There's a difference.
     
  28. Annonymous User

    Annonymous User Journeyman
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    Further more though, I just want it to be known I am not trying to promote any type of activity in UO. look at my previous posts if need be and you will see in the small posting history I have, I am not one of the Zealots that thinks all care-bears are bad and bringing down the game, I could careless. But if our paths were to cross in a hostile environment and it was me or you, you can bet I wouldn't blink before your decapitation. If these are evil morals then I don't know, sacrificing ones self for another that you do not know is folly. Back on the topic though, just because I play with an evil setting at the heart of my game play does not mean I shouldn't be rewarded for accomplishing what ever it is I wish to accomplish. Its a sand box game and with that in mind all game styles should be applicable and should not be the targets of biast people, just due to the fact that they do not agree with the view. I also find most people who disagree with my non-utilitarianism point of view, do so because they feel they would be one of the first to go if society didn't mature in the direction it did.
     
  29. Annonymous User

    Annonymous User Journeyman
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    whats funny though is this game use to have only fel rules and it very much so was survival of the fittest, and Ill be the first to admit that I didn't always survive.

    As a counterargument to your stance though, I could easily say that it is unbalanced and unjust to award only one type of game play, but leaving the options of playing the other type.
     
  30. canary

    canary Guest

    You just totally backtracked on yourself in two sentences, lol. And calling people 'care bears' isn't exactly endearing to a majority of players.

    For the record, I travel Fel and Tram.
     
  31. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Maybe vendors start trading with that character and not go on escorts.
    Later the characters get special anti virtue titles - bit redundant as we have karma titles too but ...

    And in the end put a bounty on their heads
    :p
     
  32. Annonymous User

    Annonymous User Journeyman
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    No I don't go around and proclaim that the end of uo was the inception of tram. I could careless how many people PVP. All I am saying is that if we were to cross paths in a hostile environment and pvp was to happen that I am not going to be like, wait a second am i on the "virtue" side of this fight ?

    You did not comprehend what was written.

    I almost forgot, I definitely need to include these: LoL , LoL , LoL.
    It shows how leet of a troll I am.
     
  33. Megilhir

    Megilhir Guest

    Ad hominem = LOCKED!!!

    An ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), also known as argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise. The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy, but it is not always fallacious. For in some instances, questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.
     
  34. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    UO has, since it's inception, not only rewards, but encourages anti-social behavior.

    When someone harrasses you in game, they tell you that you should leave and go somewhere else. That when someone verbally harrasses you, that you ignore them.

    UO promotes an ugly, vile filled culture, that they say it's ok to act like an anti-social prick. That it's ok to use abusive language in gobal chat. Don't like it? Leave. Ignore the person.

    Just like dealing in other issues of the game, it's not, hey let's deal with the actual root/cause of the problem. It's hey, let's ignore it, let's leave it.

    You can go into global chat and curse up a storm and EA/Mythic will not do anything about it, other than sending you a note telling you that you can leave the chat and ignore that person.

    That is how EA/Mythic promotes, encourages and rewards anti-social, vile behavior.
     
  35. Annonymous User

    Annonymous User Journeyman
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    very valid point. we were talking about playing an "evil" character I thought. I don't really know why s/he got on the topic of "anti-social" behavior. some people i guess think griefing is synonymous for playing an evil or out of touch with the virtues type character.
     
  36. canary

    canary Guest

    Actually, Toxic, you were the one who started on the moral quandaries of the situation in real life situations. Please go re read the thread.
     
  37. Annonymous User

    Annonymous User Journeyman
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    You are not on the top of your game today, you keep picking to strong of points to try to attack. The only thing I was trying to advocate was that just because you think this is an honorable action doesn't mean the next guy does, so just because i am "evil" doesn't mean I can not be with out my own views of justice and honor. I just see them in a different shade then you do. s/he was the one who started bringing up camping yew gate and griefing people. Now please be a good little canary and go back in your cage, because your troll costume is not working.

    Originally Posted by red sky View Post
    Reading some Nietzsche aye?

    In response to this yes, I did bring up real life situations and yes I can see how you can screw that in to your attack, but honestly you need more ammunition then that.
     
  38. canary

    canary Guest

    Toxic, I think at this point with your posts it is quite clear who is the troll in this discussion. I don't mind the discussion, but you are starting to call people names and making jabs simply based on them disagreeing with you. If you need to excuse yourself from the discussion at this time, now might be a logical point.
     
  39. Annonymous User

    Annonymous User Journeyman
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    QFT

    This is the post that turned the topic from evil / vs good character to a debate about acceptable social behavior.
     
  40. Annonymous User

    Annonymous User Journeyman
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    Right, thats why you are attacking my personal point of views, which yet again have nothing to do with this discussion about, evil / vs good characters, and what rewards they should have. So yes inform me who the troll is ?

    On another note this thread is so derailed that I am out of here.
     
  41. canary

    canary Guest

    You missed this post, made before mine.

    'Society in general' is taking in consideration life outside of this game.

    But, I see you have left the conversation (again). Just wanted to point that out.
     
  42. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    It's an honor to have such replies.

    I have to say though, I have a problem with saying the strongest and the smartest or even the well are a superior way of being.

    It's the Samson and Goliath syndrome. It bothers me also, because it's not logical.

    Being human shows us that fate is a more powerful force. We can only be the strongest for so long.

    If someone is born sick and dies before the age 20, this doesn't mean they could not change the world for the better, even possibly advance the human race by 1,000 years. So, even though the individual human is weak, they are part of a stronger human race.

    Also, if I was with someone and we were starving, I would rather be with someone who would sacrifice themself rather than kill me to get that last bit of food.

    This is where you kill them and then find a trap door with years of supplies. This is fate.

    Good vs. Evil is fundamental. The more powerful the evil, the stronger the good becomes. It causes you to compete with it. If you see a Dread Lord, then you strive to be a Glorious Lord.

    There are some basic rules and we all need to stay aware of them. Evil destroys, steals and lies. Good creates, loves and is honest.
     
  43. red sky

    red sky Sage
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    Well said.
     
  44. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    Virtue / Vice

    Honesty -------------|--------------- Deception
    Compassion ---------|--------------- Hatred
    Justice ---------------|--------------- Falsehood
    Valor -----------------|--------------- Cowardice
    Sacrifice -------------|--------------- Ritual
    Honor ----------------|--------------- Betrayal
    Spirituality -----------|--------------- Malice
    Humility --------------|-------------- Conceit


    Good Bad? Who cares, either way its pretty simple to make an Anti-Virtue System called "Vices"

    And just because a Player is good or bad (IMO) should not give reason to exclude that player base from a System. (Reds are already punished enough from "Annoyances" To sheer Exclusion)

    Just because I choose to be red doesnt not mean my Playstyle should be excluded from "New" Content anymore than yours.

    Plus as this is a "Good and Evil" Discussion, Red and Blue are not defined by Karma in game, A Blue can just as easily be as Evil as a Red from a Karma Perspective (where as Reds can only be Neutral [Cannot go Positive])
     
  45. Blondie_LS

    Blondie_LS Guest

    Years ago, I was part of a guild that had its own anti-virtue system. It was strictly for RP purposes.

    Just as the Virtues in UO are based on the principles Truth, Love, and Courage...
    The Anti-Virtues as we saw them, were based on the Principles Falsehood, Hatred, and Cowardice.

    Our Anti-virtues took their names from Ultima's Dungeons.
    Deceit, Despise, Destard, Wrong, Covetous, Shame, and Hythloth.
    Pride was added to these, to match the number of the virtues, unfortunately there is no actual dungeon Pride. IMO I think there should be.

    All guild members were required to maintain the lowest of Karma, Fame both the "game mechanic" and within the guild determined Rank.

    It was a lot of fun for us, as far as RP goes, but I have no idea how such a system could be implemented in the game as a game mechanic.

    I will say that as far as Evil RP goes, it looses its fun/flavor if there is no Good willing to strive with it.
     
  46. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Here's how you do it...

    DITCH the current system... scrap it completely.

    Now you redo the system making it mainly quest driven based on the questions from the gypsy in the old Ultima games, but add a third option such as:

    You are called to hunt down a thief, after a battle (which brings the thief down to a certain % of HP (like taming some creatures), you get a choice... do you:
    A) Bring him to Justice (+X Justice) (Thief is escorted to certain location to be taken to jail)
    B) personally try to sway him back to the Spiritual path of good? (+X Spirituality) (thief is released and "reformed")
    C) Kill him and keep the money? (-X Justice, -X Spirituality)


    Pattern ALL of the virtues around this ideal, then add in quests that send you into the anti-Virtue dungeons, and to retain virtue points, allow meditation at the shrines using the mantras.