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The future of UO with an item based axis...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Ahuaeyjnkxs, May 26, 2011.

  1. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    Lets make it brief...

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/25/china-prisoners-internet-gaming-scam

    You see how far it went ?

    But the big problem with raising this philosophical question is :

    It seems politically incorrect here to have an opinion about how this game is being developped.

    You have to like them, or you love them.

    But they will push us further into this until there is no community left !

    Right,

    because we could find solutions, at least make a LIMIT of things that can be traded.

    Since there is no reason Mr.ImaNoob gets a 10 million gold check just handed to him in a real medieval setting (unless he won a messana lotto, duh) then why even ALLOW it !

    But yeah, I can already see the pitchforks and torches coming...

    KILL THE WITCH !!!
     
  2. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Luckily UO gold is no very desirable at large, so no prisoners will be forced to play UO. :)
     
  3. OT
    too slow
    thank you for playing

    Uvtha >nailed it<
    RG declared RMT legal long long ago
    'sup?
    they are ATTENDED players ... on PAID subscriptions ... following >local< rules and instructions

    oops! booboo ... nvm :danceb:
     
  4. Agreed :D
     
  5. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    The last one I saw like this came from India I think, and came w/ an actual picture. Farming resources, skill training, etc. and they weren't even in prison, just in the sweatshop atmosphere (and attended).
     
  6. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    First - I'm all for making prisoners WORK to pay their way as much as possible in prison. Why does everyone think prison should be a 'free ride'?

    If I ran this country - every prisoner would accumulate debt to the state based on time in jail. They would be offered ways to work during their time to pay off that debt. If not fully paid by the time they leave - they would owe it to the state and they would garnish wages until paid.

    I'm NOT in prison and I have to work all day. Why do criminals get off without working?

    Second - Since when is being 'forced' to PLAY GAMES a bad thing? How many people here are like prisoners already working 8-10 hours a day playing UO?

    Last - There is nothing to see here. As long as someone is at the keyboard playing a paid for account - it does not matter what their motivation is to play (by choice or forced). Its not EA/UO or anyone else in the gaming industry to police.

    Seriously how many people here knew if they got 8 hours of undistracted time to play UO would complain about prison? LOL
     
  7. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    *slaps forehead*

    Never mind !

    Yall didn't even get 1% of it...
     
  8. Landicine

    Landicine Seasoned Veteran
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    Glancing at my local free paper, I see:

    -More on a corruption case that was mostly about indirectly stealing money from various people, companies, and the state government.

    -Random public interest case about money falling from the sky.

    -An entire page of celebrity gossip page with 2 million dollar engagement rings and massively costly divorces.

    -Advertisements for more things people "should" buy.

    When did the world become so item-based?

    The situation you describe has less to do with a game being item-based and more to do a direct way to turn virtual property into actual money. I may not like the "cash wins" aspect of online games since I feel it causes problems, but I don't think more restrictions will make it better.

    As for community, trade and vendors and gifts and prizes between players add a lot to the game. I don't see how changing this into a single player game we all play in parallel for our own piles of loot will improve things.
     
  9. Sept

    Sept Journeyman
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    going off topic here sorry,

    Why I agree that anyone who is found guilty of a crime should have a debt to pay, and your idea of paying for their time in prison is actually an excellent one.

    To group the individual in question into this category is far from fair, he was imprisoned for petitioning against corruption in the local government, hardly a thief or murdered.

    back on topic, UO has been item based since AOS can we please move on.........
     
  10. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    I don't know. I'm not convinced to the extent that you are (about the extent of it).
    But I do have to wonder why MMO gaming has turned into an RMTer's paradise. I mean, WoW couldn't be built better for RMT and farming, with everything static and predictable and so script friendly, while creating demand by the same system. Same with Farmville, but of course that's "in house".

    What I wonder about mostly is how many developers that push the Themepark style (as opposed to Sandbox, where there's a greater chance for randomness instead of harvest points) as THE way to make MMORPGs do so because of an ulterior motive, related to this phenomena. Maybe not to be involved with it, but to at least draw larger numbers as part of the "social atmosphere".
     
  11. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    As long as ingame goods are obtained through legal means, how those items are traded from one player to another is of ZERO concern to myself nor should it be to anyone else.

    As for what China does is an issue witth China, not WoW, UO, or anything else.

    Don't like gold sellers? Then don't patronize them... simple.
     
  12. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    I know you aren't Treb...

    I'm not dooming you all and that you have failed at understanding...

    but this is beyond me ! I just can't beleive this communication hasn't structured itself yet into something palpable, something that is evidently a consensus of sorts that we "cool and reasonable" people on stratics that have been peer reviewed and determined not to have any ulterior agenda or ill feelings (ie. NOT Fayled)

    That we'd all agree this makes no sense.

    So you want an explanation, I'll give you one and you won't like it, but nonetheless it is the truth.

    The reason is that in order for the sandbox to work, there must be EVIL in it so the players feel a REASON to build a community.

    Yes I am going against the no see no talk no hear policy around here. That is who I am.

    I am the only remaining evil in this "game" of yours. All the rest is a futile attempt at entertainment, and why is it like this ?

    NOT (and I said it a hundred times) NOT because I'm smarter, more than anyone of you here. I consider myself equal, but lucky.

    I have went through a series of experience that add up to what I became, and it is by pure luck that I gained this perspective about the "sandbox".

    I am now at the heart of the story, and it's not over, it cannot be over.

    And now I make my point :

    "BECAUSE"

    Nothing else will give you that rush of adrenaline that is full of soul. You might have the rush, the stimulation, the feeling of being "unto something"...

    but thing is, I am and have been thriving to be a virtuous being.

    Since there is noone capable of creating that "electromagnetic meta-tension" other than me, there is simply no interest in brigning back this play style.

    People have tried, and Fayled...

    it's all going round and round...
     
  13. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    Besides the point, I'm only talking about limiting the amount of good that can be traded without a good "reason" like item for money.

    Simply limit the amout of gold a noob can "receive" from another player.

    TAX it ... there..

    I said it... GOSH ! FINANCE BETTER UO , FINISH EC... duh :p
     
  14. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Again, what business is it of yours, mine, the devs, gms, or anyone else what or how much people trade between themselves as long as they are not exploiting in any way? (And no, an EXTERNAL process such as RMT is NOT exploiting the game).

    Get away from the emotionalism that the news article is injecting and look at the issue from a logical perspective.
     
  15. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    I know your type... I had a friend... well I have a few friends who are like you.

    I'm not vulcan Mr. Dermott... I'm human.

    What business is it ?

    Well lets see, I had a great game once upon a time where friendship and brotherhood and virtue was important.

    Now by corruption alone we end up with a game, well nothing needs to be said !

    It speaks for itself.

    Say you allow it (which makes no sense in a roleplaying game, but only in a war game like WoW)

    That MR. X that who knows who's businness took the gold from children crammed into houses, locked on their computer chair starving (and I have first hand experience of this in CANADA even).

    It is my business. It's been the business of the cop I had to work with too.

    At least TAX it, in game if anything.

    even better , create a roleplay scenario... since huge checks never pass by without the guardian being "aware" of it... let him take part of it, and charge say 1$ to the seller, through an account they have to setup at EA.

    I don't give a damn if its legal or not, don't you see ? All I care about is what UO stands for. AND also the message UO and EA sends out to our youth.

    Make it unprofitable for the abusers, the scripters... and leave the rest with a sense of community.

    Thats what its all about.

    P.S. - and btw, I can't even beleive I have to state this OBVIOUS first grader logic to a bunch of EDUCATED people like you all are...
     
  16. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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  17. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
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    Re: Gold farmimg

    Merged 2 threads into one.
    Ta-DA!
     
  18. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Crazed Zealot
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    Re: Gold farmimg

    He's magic like that!! :hahaha:
     
  19. PitrGri

    PitrGri Guest

    Just dont use the word ethnic and you will be safe... hopefully.
     
  20. nynyve

    nynyve Guest

    I would like to address several points.

    First of all this is not about prisoners not working. Reread the article. These prisoners engage in hard labor all day. At night, the guards are forcing the prisoners to play WOW so that the guards can make money. This is at best exploitation, at worst slavery. Do you honestly think that it is acceptable for prison guards to use a prisoner's labor for personal gain?

    When you buy something be it a pixel or a real life item, it matters where it came from for many reasons, but I will just give you one--the gold was obtained illegally, through exploitation and a violation the ROC.

    As for what business is it of Blizzard or EA how much people trade among themselves--it became their business when people signed the ROC. If you do not like the ROC don't play.

    WOW belongs to Blizzard--it is their IP. They get to decide how the game is played, and who profits by the use of their IP.

    The devs at Blizzards and EA spend a lot of time designing their games. One of the things that they work hardest at is balancing the economy. I worked hard for each gold piece I made in WOW and every item I acquired--the same with UO. Players use gold as a measure to see how they are doing. Buying gold invalidates the accomplishments of honest players, just as scripting or other cheating does. It also gives an undue advantage to players who have more cash in real life.

    One of the points of WOW and UO is that everyone, in theory, starts with the same advantages and disadvantages, and theoretically has the same opportunity to get gold and items. If the games become a real life cash competition, then only the players with cash will play. Then they will get bored and leave. Check out the churn rate on some so-called free to play games.

    These online games are the result of love and creativity. Yes they were designed to make money, but they were also designed to be fun and to build a community of players. Forcing people to play for gain is a perversion of their purpose. Imagine being chained to a computer every night and being forced to play UO so that someone else can make money.

    Trust me, somewhere a dev wept with sorrow and rage when they heard about this.
     
  21. PitrGri

    PitrGri Guest



    One problem if you stop RMT... in many places, families, individuals, kids, adults... will cry with sorrow and rage when they hear about it.

    I am all for putting an end to it... been for more than a decade now... but I also know alot about UO sociology... ethics vs relative ethics... hard choice there.
     
  22. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Again, the problem is with the prison guards. If it weren't playing WoW, they'd have them doing something else. The games and RMT did NOT in any way push those guards into forcing people to play, it was just the chosen method. Again, absent that, it would have been something else.

    The problem in this case is China, not the games or activities associated with them.

    But it does work well as an Appeal to Emotion in terms of the RMT argument within the MMOG realm.
     
  23. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    It is called addiction. If there is demand, there will be supply. I am entirely with dermott on this one. An emotional appeal about how bad drugs or drug dealers are, fails to solve anything.

    I drink wine with moderation, I chose not to smoke and I play ultima only a few hrs a week. Sometimes I play a day long. There is no "yes" answer to the CAGE acronym.

    Criminals are still criminals and human rights are still human rights. The OP is seriously mixing various issues. So does the news paper article quoted for that matter.

    If gaming addiction can make it into the DSM V, it sure as he'll will lead to criminals and corrupt governments to take advantage of the psychiatrically weak. That should surprise no one.

    Oh, and I buy gold sometimes :)
     
  24. Roland'

    Roland' Lore Keeper
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    I saw this in a documentary years ago. The "office" was tons of computers sitting next to each other with indians playing wow, UO, warhammer, etc. You could accualy see the games on the screen. They interveiwed an employee who i cant quote word for word but he was very happy about his 12 hour a day 7 day a week job with 2 short breaks (sitting all day doesnt get you alot of breaks in teh third world i guess).

    Who ever said that most of us would love to have 8 hours uninterupted game time is a good thing is dead wrong. People dont buy gold cause they like to farm it, they buy gold so they can play the game and do what they want. Not sit around all day doing mind numbing tasks.
     
  25. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Ok... Yes it is bad for those folk in China to be forced to do something that is only to profit the guards... that is a shame.

    And at the same time I too believe that NO ONE should get a free ride and Prison is a PUNISHMENT ..... it ain't no stay at the spa... I'm sick and tired of prisoners getting better **** than the public. They should have to work to pay back society for their criminal behavior. Do I think that prisons should go back to the unregulated bad treatment of prisoners... No. Do I think they should be beaten and abused NO. They should be treated like human beings... but do I think that they should be allowed such freedoms that they are? NO.

    As for the sale of items for RL Money... I have mixed feelings about that. If someone is willing to bore themselves to tears gathering wood, ingots, stone.... whatever or farming gold... and they wish to provide those things to others then HEY more power to them. I'm sorry if it got to the point it was ruining the economy and part of that could be the community collections. Desirable items for free basically if you had the time to farm the stuff. But in life just as UO if there is a need to fill someone will find a way to profit from it... that's a part of what makes America a free country... and so wonderful.

    Do I think it's horrible people are profiting from a game... No. Some folk barely have time to play UO because they work all the time... or they have a life with children or whatever... if they find it better to pay someone to get the things they want in-game who am I to criticize them?

    Greed kills the game. If your goals in the game are measured by how much gold you can amass then I guess that's it for you... UO will not disappoint because there is always an abundance of gold. If your goal is to get "rares" then you only feed the greed but hey whatever floats your boat. Sadly fewer and fewer folk play for COMMUNITY.

    Why? Because Greed has bred and brought so many to the game who are rude, crude and greedy. They want what you have and they don't care how they git it. They come to events and functions only wanting to "Get stuff"... and if it's not given they create havoc and grief. They hack and steal and cheat to get what they want and they don't care for anyone but themselves. THIS is what is ruining the game.... driving folk away in droves and destroying communities.
     
  26. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    What I've seen in terms of "affect on the community" really has little to do with RMT or greed. When UO started, most gamers that moved to UO were involved in either one of two types of games (or both in many cases)... tabletop RPGs (DND and such) and MUDs. They brought those concepts into the early days of UO.

    Granted during that same time there were just as many people who brought in the "rude, crude, and greedy" mindset (mainly from FPSs) as well, but people still played with a community aspect. The dungeons and stuff were all there, but the content in terms of "game-provided" wasn't as obvious.

    Fast forward a bit to the Everquest model (and by extension WoW) and the genre moved away from the sandbox framework to the level-raid "themepark" clones. It was (obviously) successful in financial terms although it removed a LOT of what UO was in the early days.

    Of course to adapt to this new reality, UO has tried to keep playing a "balance" game between sandbox and theme park.

    The success of this of course is up for debate. Some people like one and not the other, others would like to see both. It's a sticky balance, especially while trying to retain the uniqueness (especially after a decade of level-based clones) of a non-zone skill-based game.

    As for the economy side of it, the BIG killer of course is exploiting and the ONLY way you combat that is with an active GM/enforcement system... something which UO has not had in quite some time.
     
  27. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Their full time job is avoid getting ****d or shanked. Seriously though lots or prisoners work.
     
  28. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    The balance you are talking about is, in my mind, really a temporary shift.

    To understand this, let me make this statement:
    Themepark games are for genre newbs.

    Now I'll try to quantify that.
    When new players come into this genre (MMORPGs), their experience is basically with Single Player games and an assortment of Multi-Player experiences. Mostly based on RPGs of some form or another.
    So their expectations are "Massively Multiplayer" added to their previous experiences. That's what Themepark games gives to them.

    But just as they get tired of replaying their Single Player games, they also get tired of these Themepark games. You can only play the same thing over and over again so many times. But these are Persistent Worlds. What happens then? They have persistent characters, in a persistent world, but the game has been played out to the end too many times.

    This is where players start asking some questions, like "is there nothing more?" And they start thinking about what could be "more". And this is where "Worldly" comes in. The desire for the world to change, for things to happen through "story", for mystery, for greater depth.

    EQ brought in larger numbers, and WoW brought in massive numbers that were all "newbies to the genre". And EQ did a fine job for what they were, but WoW fixed all the problems that EQ had. WoW fine tuned it to perhaps the best anyone could.

    But all those millions of gamers were "genre newbs".

    And WoW was great for them, and kept adding "content" and new ways to play the same thing, until the point that there just isn't anywhere else to go. How many new classes and races can a game add before it's just more copies?

    But there's a cliff at the end of this road.

    Worldly Sandbox games don't have this problem. Because the game is about the world and the story in that world. Both can be added to indefinitely. I'm not talking about land mass here in the case of "World", but all sorts of other things like new dungeons, new physics, new art, new player interaction capabilities. And "Story" is easy, if easier said than done.

    My point is that Themepark games have a shelf life, and I think that it's "best used by" date has expired. Sandbox games need to be the move forwards now.

    Themepark games still have a great potential in the Facebook crowd (newbs), but there's also a big gap for the experienced MMORPG gamers for Sandbox games taken to new levels.

    (By the way, I have a feeling that some Chinese prison guards are going to be playing a lot of WoW soon themselves, once their superiors find out about them.)
     
  29. Not so much the "guards", they get their cut , of course, but the upper-management likely gets the bulk of the rewards ... ya know?

    You are spot on otherwise.

    If there was no money involved(rmt) and the same story was there to be told
    (forced game play)
    Would we have heard of the horrors?

    Just saying ...
    Most nations have prison systems
    America is reported as having the largest >incarcerated< population
    yet (in my view)
    The entire nation of North Korea >is a prison state< ...

    And here we are, picking and poking at a digital article
    sitting in houses with running water and indoor plumbing
    and likely central heat and air (definitely with broadband connections)

    passing judgement on others re: "the game"

    how droll

    [​IMG]
     
  30. ChReuter

    ChReuter Guest

    What great game was that? I must have somehow overlooked it.

    You also seem stuck on some roleplaying game... Is it the same game I just asked you about? Because I haven't played a roleplaying since before I started UO. :D

    Oh and lastly, as I just can't be bothered with reading any more of this. I do have a nagging interest in finding out how the hell you came into the situation of experiencing first hand what you stated above? If you helped law enforcement shut down such a operation than I applaud you, but I want to see the news article on it. I mean, this isn't Bangkok we're talking about here.
     
  31. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    I have no merit in it... I just was a listening ear to this tortured girl and helped her to find a way to contact the cops (she was way too afraid to try)

    This was about 2 years ago, and you will not hear any of it in the news, so much this place they were kept in was a horror. That is about all I know, and she came to thank me after ; told me she was free.

    There are somethings too terrible, unshareable... right here in our "american" country. These young kids were being fed drugs daily, and if they weren't good farmers enough they would not get their full dose... or worse.

    I wonder how many unresponsible parents have caught on to this "opportunity" and found a way to get them to like it even...

    This is not a discussion about drugs and drugs dealers however and who is right and who is wrong.

    This is all about forcing our hosts to review their "laws" so we at least know they are working against this evil.

    I'm not the only one with ideas, but I think this has gone too far and for the honor of the ultima franchise this devious plot must be stopped dead in its tracks.

    What I am pointing at is the corruption of certain people, who made alot of money with UO and who still haven't come clear of it. Some of these people have made it so there would be no law.

    Yes they have made it so, who knows by pulling what string, the EA ToS was modified to give its users more "privacy" effectively preventing any GM to find an exploited.

    I submit that some very corrupt people have somehow influenced the course of time and threw online ethics out the window, and still run amok.

    To be honest I knew back in 1999 how to stop all duping in this game with a simple p2p system (yes it would have taken infenetistimal bandwidith) but it worked, and I was even allowed to test it first hand.

    But then the whole GM-Seer team (my contacts) got fired... and you know the story.

    It was orchestrated to be this sad, sad way. Even Fayled seems to see the sense in it...

    say I sell "duped" CDs in large scale someone will come arrest me... but say I sell duped gold... there is NO LAW ?!

    What a pirate paradise... this joke, bad joke is it.
     
  32. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    So I understand noone is willing to take a stand and request this change...

    I will hold each that remained silent responsible for the consequences of this non-action.

    Oh and yes I have the power to do so.

    However there are exeptions, because not everyone is made to take a stand ! Each is own contribution.
     
  33. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    There's too many work-arounds, I don't see how anything short of removing all trade, items on the ground, house friendships, and every other thing that moves items from point A to point B in the game.
     
  34. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    So I understand noone is willing to take a stand and request this change...

    A change to limit what people can trade between each other? Not only will I not stand up for it, but I will oppose it completely 100% of the time. Arbitrary limits only harm legitimate players.

    I will hold each that remained silent responsible for the consequences of this non-action.

    Oh and yes I have the power to do so.


    We're all quaking in your collective shoes we are.


    However there are exeptions, because not everyone is made to take a stand ! Each is own contribution.

    Umm ok.

    Again, as I have REPEATEDLY stated over years and years of posting on the issue, I in no way condone, support, or encourage exploiting the game. However, I FULLY support the rights of people who play the game legitimately to trade in the manner they wish because the trade they make is NONE of my business.

    What to do something about abuses in China... contact your Congressman or a civil rights group. UO has nothing to do with the article linked in this thread and can do nothing about such activities anyway.
     
  35. :scholar: oh shush!

    :thumbsup: Get the oldman on board first ... thilly!

    On his head it be !! :danceb:
     
  36. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Well, as a buyer, it is my business. If the game is affected in ways I don't like, I have a right to my opinion about that. And if I had support and could then convince the powers that be to do something, we'd have every right to do so.
     
  37. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    Sometimes you have to choose your battles and unfortunately this is one too big for an individual or even this community to do anything about. There are rarely topics that we all agree on and this idea is one that would severely limit what are now daily transactions.

    For what it's worth here are some things I think I agree with you on: what China is doing violates human rights. Prisoners are prisoners, not slaves, not guinea pigs/hamsters, not a means to an end ... using them for profit is slavery. Item based games encourage hours of grinding for hardcore players and easy ways out for casual players, which is where RMT comes in. Since taking action against China is basically an impossible task going after the game companies appears like small fish in comparison.

    However, you've got a player base who will mostly side with the interests of the players over the interests of Chinese prisoners any day. Is it fair? I can't say. It is what it is, and in my opinion it's not a battle worth fighting.
     
  38. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    As a buyer, the best course of action is to investigate the seller(s) you're looking at buying from and buying from the ones that seem least likely to be involved in shady activities. Of course that depends on just how much you even WANT to consider where the goods you're buying are coming from and how they are being produced. Many people simply want the end result.

    Personally, I don't buy or sell, though I WOULD be a seller if the market were such that it were feasible to do so at a decent profit (meaning that I'd have to make more on a per hour basis than a fry-cook at a fast food place). Since it really isn't (at least in UO), I don't get involved.

    Personally, I'd rather see a marketplace run by the game company involved that acts as a neutral ground. Allow for sales via ingame currency as well as real $$$, tie all of the accounts on the site to the ingame accounts, then have a team that does behind the scenes investigations to identify and remove those who are found to be exploiting to obtain what they are selling.

    Granted it would be quite a cost to the product in terms of money invested by the company to do this, but it would in theory create a legitimized marketplace that would be much safer than the "wilds" of the internet.
     
  39. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    China needs to deal with this, and I think they will if the right people find out about it.

    As far as this issue of RMT, I think there's another way to handle it that would work as far as gathered resources.

    Allow players to hire NPCs that can be trained up to the player's skill, that can stay on 24-7 and gather. The requirements for production would have to be adjusted for the massive quantities this would add, maybe with more failures and spoilage.

    So, hirable NPC miners, lumberjacks, even Huntsmen, etc.

    This would build scripting (for resources) into the game, and remove it from cheaters.
     
  40. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    Why would they? Under the current world political structure there is absolutely no incentive for them to stop. At least not for any political reasons. International law is much too vague to pinpoint what they are doing as illegal. If the UN raised a brow it wouldn't go far because guess who has veto power as a permanent member of the security council. NGOs? They've got bigger fish to fry such as why are some of these people being put into prison in the first place?

    The only thing China listens to is money. They've made a religion out of boosting their economy.
     
  41. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    First, understand that China is a complex nation. They are not "all like that", you know?

    To answer your question, because those prison guards are stealing from the state. Whatever the prisoners earn belongs to the state. And there are a lot of officials over there that care about that.

    Also, China does have people working for human rights. They don't want revolution, they want to change things from within, and they are satisfied with a slow change because a rapid one would destabilize the country and lead to many problems. These people will use the existing laws wherever they can and will be on this like they are on everything else. The government's biggest fear is revolution, and they will cooperate to this extent. Especially since they all see this as wrong, from their own perspectives.

    At least, that's the way I see it.
     
  42. Vlaude

    Vlaude Lore Keeper
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    First, understand that when in this context I say "China" this or that I am referring to the state, meaning the central government, not the population as a whole. If you can't learn to distinguish context, this discussion will not continue.

    "But Liu, who was released from prison before 2009 believes that the practice of prisoners being forced to earn online currency in multiplayer games is still widespread."

    Still widespread ... Those "caring" officials had better hurry up and get their act together. By the way, who are they? Source?

    Cooperate in what way? Tiananmen Square? Don't get me wrong, I applaud the local groups that support human rights in China, but they have to worry more about not destabilizing their own efforts than destabilizing the country.

    The way you see it involves a lot of idealistic thinking. While I agree with your hopes that this will all come to a swift end soon, I'm not nearly as optimistic about it as you are.
     
  43. The prison industry in the United States: big business or a new form of slavery?

    At least 37 states have legalized the contracting of prison labor by private corporations that mount their operations inside state prisons. The list of such companies contains the cream of U.S. corporate society: IBM, Boeing, Motorola, Microsoft, AT&T, Wireless, Texas Instrument, Dell, Compaq, Honeywell, Hewlett-Packard, Nortel, Lucent Technologies, 3Com, Intel, Northern Telecom, TWA, Nordstrom's, Revlon, Macy's, Pierre Cardin, Target Stores, and many more. All of these businesses are excited about the economic boom generation by prison labor. Just between 1980 and 1994, profits went up from $392 million to $1.31 billion. Inmates in state penitentiaries generally receive the minimum wage for their work, but not all; in Colorado, they get about $2 per hour, well under the minimum. And in privately-run prisons, they receive as little as 17 cents per hour for a maximum of six hours a day, the equivalent of $20 per month. The highest-paying private prison is CCA in Tennessee, where prisoners receive 50 cents per hour for what they call "highly skilled positions." At those rates, it is no surprise that inmates find the pay in federal prisons to be very generous. There, they can earn $1.25 an hour and work eight hours a day, and sometimes overtime. They can send home $200-$300 per month.

    Hmmm

    Canada becoming a nation of Prison Plantations- jail the new social safety net | Facebook

    *dusts hands*
    :thumbsup: there's the solution ... "Unionize" the communist state prisons ...

    or google "prison labor" ... and >read up< on what it is that is being discussed.
    *shrugs*

    Life is a series of negotiations ... and this thread remains an OT topic.

    This is the place for general discussion about Ultima Online gameplay, development issues, and related Ultima Online issues. Please keep posts on topic, and use the U. Hall OT for off-topic posts!

    :danceb:
     
  44. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    You took offense at that first statement?
    I said what I think. That's about all there is to it. And frankly, I don't care if a conversation with you continues. I'm getting too old to argue with every brash young rooster who wants to crow at me over nothing.
     
  45. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    Fayled is trying to take a bite off me again and... failing.

    This discussion is exactly about the development of UO, I am asking for the company to make a significative change as to its ethics and online HYGIENE.

    What was proper 10 years ago does not work now, now to have a TOS that protects hackers because theyre is "privacy" in game and not even a GM can sneek a peek into someone's in-game house is NOT proper.

    If anything Dermott's idea of a standardised marketplace where you SIGN a paper that allows GMs to verify the source of your revenue, and part of that revenue is used to PAY for the GMs to verify.

    That would be fair
    and MAKE SENSE.

    Sorry for the caps :)
     
  46. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I have read the original post many times and can't follow it. There's about 4 different issues that he's looking at and seeing as either identical or connected in some way they can't possibly be.

    Now, you'll have to excuse me, I have to supervise the 20 college freshmen girls I have chained naked in my basement, gold-farming on UO for me.

    Of course, oddly enough, this game being nowhere near as popular as is WoW, it's all I can do to make enough money from this business venture to pay for the electricity to run 20 computers in my basement, to say nothing of petrol for the black van with the tinted windows, in which I can often be seen hanging out outside the local college library waiting for the nightly all-girl Dungeons and Dragons game to end.

    Gee, you'd think that, perhaps, the potential of an online, or any, game to make RL money for someone is more proportional to the popularity of the game than to the kind of game it is.

    -Galen's player
     
  47. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    So to clarify, 3, or was it 4 years ago, "They" (using the term loosely as I forgot what prison in which nation) Would hold "fights" involving the inmates, and now they are making them farm gold for money. And now you want them to try to Prohibit them from farming gold (since there is no way at all to tell how anyone got the gold) So in turn they would go back to gambling on fights? Emotional Ties to stories are all well and good, but on occasion we need to step back and realize an emotion is not the best or most logical thing to focus on. You don't seem to care that his fingers were bleeding from making chopsticks, but heaven forbid if they have to play a video game.

    I don't exactly Disagree with the guards making them play a game, on the other hand I think that is to easy of a task for prisoners. Granted the punishment should fit the crime, and in the case of the article his crime was...Well by American standards not a crime at all but in fact patriotic, but never the less you act as if what they are doing (Making someone play a game,keep this in mind.) Is completely inhumane. Would it make you feel better if they were forced to play in the dozens of Chess Tournaments with cash prizes? And when not in the Tournaments they would have to play at the prison for practice? Would you then be trying to ban chess?
     
  48. Ahuaeyjnkxs

    Ahuaeyjnkxs stranger diamond

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    I am talking about the future of UO, not chinese prisonners !

    They are an example of how far it goes, and just to strenghten my example here comes Galen on his 4 horses...

    Of course it's not a problem for UO anymore, but the principle, we pay to "encourage" is being twisted in ways that was not meant for the Ultima franchise which is about virtue and not money.

    Noone can make this discussion take an unexpected turn really, because it's so clear what its all about.
     
  49. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    C&D I would say No to your questions in regards to the OP's viewpoint because it's not about the Chinese at all. Really it's about his desire to try and forcibly and arbitrarily limit economic activity in UO between consenting players in an attempt to try and catch those naughty, nasty, evil, inhumane "gold sellers".

    The article, which has nothing to do with UO at all and in fact involves a game that has banned gold selling outright (which of course shows you just how effective such bans really are), is presented to provide the emotional appeal in order to support the argument to limit player-to-player trading.

    If any other activity were being presented in the article aside from farming an MMOG, the OP would have neither paid any attention to the article, much less posted anything about it.

    Selective outrage and all of that.

    Irrational hatred of RMT is more important than a prisoner's forced activity half a world away.
     
  50. OT is OT
    to now proclaim that this thread is:

    is merely a derailed OT thread further thrashing about ...
    The posted article
    is a tale told by a former chinese prison guard
    who allegedly "witnessed"(participated) in the alleged "crime" that EA is (supposedly) supporting through failed ethics and hygine.
    :coco:

    brought to us by the
    and the troll tag is within the local definition:

    Trolling is whenever someone is clearly, deliberately posting in a manner for the purpose of angering and/or insulting the other participants of the board. Trolling DOES NOT encourage further discussion in the long run, it only encourages personal attacks (if left unchecked).

    In as much as there was nothing to discuss to begin with ...
    *ahem oho ahem*
    nothing to discuss to begin with ... (since there already was a thread ... a trollish thread this is ... )
    :danceb: