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The great whirlwind debate

Discussion in 'UO Warrior' started by [JD], Jun 16, 2010.

  1. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    So here I am looking through all the whirlwind weapons to determine which the “best” for my needs is.

    Forgive any typos, there was a lot of information to put in this thread - I'll edit mistakes as they're found. I’m not going to discuss Gargoyle weapons as this is for Human/elves.

    “Best” to me means lots of DPS (Damage Per Second), taking into consideration what is required to swing at cap, having stamina to spare so it doesn’t drop in speed if you get hit, and enough room for the necessary weapon mods.

    For purposes of this discussion I’m going to use the Stratics calculator. I know some of you like to use those SSI charts; I’m just more familiar with the Stratics weapon calculator, which can be found below. If you haven't played with it, I highly suggest you check it out before deciding on a weapon line:

    http://uo.stratics.com/content/arms-armor/arms.php

    I’m going to be using the following values for the calculator:

    120 Strength, because it is a reasonable amount of strength to attain.
    150 Dex/STA, because again, it is a reasonable amount of STA to attain with an imbued suit, powerscroll, and/or pots.
    30 SSI, although there are weapons that require more and I will discuss them as well.
    100 Tactics/Anat/DI
    20 (JOAT) Lumberjacking, although I will also discuss GM lumberjacking.

    Fencing:

    Kama – 28.8 DPS
    Swinging at cap, it will do only 28.8 DPS and is a 2-hander so you cannot chug pots without disarming. The only real bonus of this weapon is that because its base weapon speed (2s) is so fast you probably don’t need to concentrate much on stamina/SSI in your suit and will be able to add other interesting mods to your weapon or suit.

    Swords:

    Radiant Scimitar – 37.5 DPS
    Doing quite a bit more damage than the Kama, a great bonus is that it’s 1-handed. It’s also quite fast and wouldn’t require a huge investment in SSI or STA. This makes it a top choice among many for their whirlwind weapon.

    Double Axe – 39 (46.8 CAP) (50.4 CAP+GM LJ) DPS
    The double axe cannot swing at cap with only 30 SSI and 150 STA. However at 35 SSI and 150 STA, it accelerates to cap and jumps in damage output to 46.8 DPS, which is significantly better than the Radiant Scimmy! It also receives some DPS benefit from JOAT or trained lumberjacking; at GM Lumberjack it does a very nice 50.4 DPS, almost TWICE what a Kama will do.

    Large Battle Axe – 34.57 (48.4 CAP) (52 CAP+GM Lumber) DPS
    The Large Battle Axe requires 55 SSI and 180 STA just to swing at cap. It obtains a damage bonus from lumberjacking. At JOAT LJ it’ll do 48.4 damage, and at GM lumberjack it’ll do 52 DPS! Considering the huge investment in SSI, STA, and skill points, I would think it would be able to do better than 52 DPS. Even The Ornate will cap out at 59 DPS – although it doesn’t have whirlwind. I feel this one is for show-boaters, someone who HAS to have the biggest. Although to me, you invest so much to get only marginal DPS gain.

    Halberd – 29.78 (44.67 Not-Cap) DPS
    Even accelerating it to 180 STA and 60 SSI won’t allow it to swing at cap to outdo the Double Axe. It caps out at 44.67 DPS. It doesn’t get a lumberjacking bonus either. In my opinion the Halberd is just a poor weapon choice, DPS-wise. The “Blaze” artifact is nice however as it can be POF’d after it is used (and damaged) by slimes. It just doesn’t pump out the damage of other weapons, unfortunately. A sad fate for a former favorite weapon of many in “the good old days” of Ultima Online…

    Macing:

    Black Staff – 42 DPS
    The Black staff is a hidden gem in the world of whirlwind weapons. It’s base speed is only 2.75, which means it doesn’t require much to accelerate it to cap speed, meaning you don’t have to make huge SSI or STA investments. At the same time, it also does a whopping 42 DPS. It doesn’t do as much as the Axes above, but it’s “nearly there”, for practically no specialization. This weapon is a favorite of mine for this reason. A downside was that it could only be purchased from NPC vendors or found as loot on monsters, which limited it to 450 weight for imbuing purposes. However a recent patch claimed that it’s now craftable by Carpenters.

    War Hammer – 36.29 (50.8 CAP) DPS
    The War Hammer is macing’s heavy-hitting whirlwind weapon. It’s .25 slower than the Double Axe, but when accelerated to cap with 180 STA and 55 SSI, it does a whopping 50.8 DPS. If you want the highest whirlwind DPS, but won't have room for lumberjacking on your skill template, the War Hammer is your obvious choice.

    Favorites:

    My favorite picks in this order are:

    1. Black Staff, for 2-handers – high DPS without large investment
    2. *Double Axe, for a very heavy hitting 2-hander, without gigantic investment
    2. *Radiant Scimmy, for a 1-hander (depends how often you use pots)
    3. War Hammer, for heaviest hitting 2-hander which doesn’t require Lumberjack
    4. Large Battle Axe, for heaviest hitting 2h ww weap overall
    5. Kama comes in last, the DPS are horrible and it is a 2-hander

    *To me, these are interchangeable as #2 best Whirlwind weapon, depending entirely on if you need to instantly use potions, or if you want to do more damage to begin with so you don't have to chug pots. So far I have not needed to use pots much, however I haven't pushed myself as far as some of you have.

    Thoughts/comments?
     
  2. Double Axe is top imo. Easy to cap and when you're not Whirlwinding it has Double Strike.
     
  3. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    qft
     
  4. Yen Sid

    Yen Sid Guest

    Indeed, I just made one for knocking around Ophidians ;).
     
  5. Thunderz

    Thunderz Certifiable
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    :) i did yesterday aswell ready for the event, and a few others to test out instead of radiants (ssi and more dps against having another mod).

    Thunderz
     
  6. ultima77

    ultima77 Guest

    Question for double axe uses - how often do you use Double Strike? Is it worth the mana?
     
  7. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Depends on how much mana leech you put on the axe and how much damage you do to the creature you're double striking. At about 100 damage per hit with about 90% (imbuing, not the actual) property weight (actual probably about 61% ML with 30 SSI) you can double strike endlessly.
    70-80 damage is still good.
    50-60 you'll noticeably have to alternate between LS or WW and Double Strike.
     
  8. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    humm you guys might be convincing me to "move up" from my black staff, as pointed out the double axe doesn't take much to accelerate to cap. i just loved the way the black staff would do so much damage at cap and i could do it in random drops and not require expensive equipment. so i guess that makes it more of a starter weap.

    miner, how would you guarantee you were doing 100 per hit? is it possible with 100 tac/anat, im assuming it would require 100 di, perfection, eoo/slayer

    how much mana leech would be good - 44?

    also assuming that mana leech is more important than stamina leech on your weapons, as mana leech is a partial % leech of total damage done while stamina is a full leech (i think) or leeches more, so you need less to be effective

    what % of stam leech should one shoot for on a weapon? like how much is over kill?
     
  9. Diggity

    Diggity Guest

    Depends on what I’m fighting if double strike is worth the mana. For critters with low resists, eg dark father with it’s 30’s, double strike is worth it. For high resistances (even after consecrate), AI is usually better. Eg, darknight creepers supposedly lowest resist is 60, so I’ll AI it instead.
     
  10. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    It's not quite as simple as they're making it out to be to maintain the cap speed. You also need a good buffer of stamina loss you can take. Which is a problem you don't have with the black staff. Test it out before you make a commitment.

    You don't really guarantee, different monsters have different resists and 70-80 is perfectly fine for most monsters.
    Max DI, get 100 tactics, 100 anatomy, perfection when needed, EoO when needed, Corpse Skin usually helps (a lot), but without SS that's not gonna last long.

    You don't want to sacrifice stamina leech on a double axe. Keeping it at the max "no void orbs required" (44 for SL) point is good.
     
  11. My last character I used it on had 190 Stamina & a Turquoise Ring. As they were mainly for Ornate Axes.
     
  12. mjolnir131

    mjolnir131 Guest

    i"ll be imbueing a couple of black staffs to see how one nicely outfited works just never found one with the SSI i liked now that we can make them we will see
     
  13. dlwiii

    dlwiii Journeyman
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    I recenlty got to 180+ stamina, and now am loving the double axe. It's great for the cavern of the discarded. Use a vermin slayer talisman, and a double axe with 60 HSL, 50 HML, and I can wipe out the spawn quickly. Then for the renowned, I will do double strikes and get off 2-3 before I get low on mana and have to hit with a plain old lightning strike.
     
  14. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    inspired by this thread i made the change to swords. i have really started to like the double axe. to me it seems a great weapon as you have the one-on-one special (double strike) as well as whirlwind for beating on any buddies which show up.

    so im thinking, if i put HLA on my double, do i really need a daisho?

    daisho runs at 2.75 and i will have enough sta/ssi on my suit so that i dont need to imbue ssi on the weap, freeing a slot. a "boss killer" daisho for me might look like:
    DI 45
    HML 55
    HSL 44
    (Creature) Slayer
    HLA 44

    I would get the HLA+Feint on one weapon, plus it has double strike. But much lower DPS than the double axe, and no whirlwind.

    Are there any tough "boss" monsters I might eventually face where feint and HLA are both required to win?

    The double axe might look something like this:

    DI 45
    SSI 30
    HML 55
    HSL 44
    (Creature) slayer -or- HLA (if I have a slayer talisman)

    Thanks
     
  15. Thunderz

    Thunderz Certifiable
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    Yeah Putrifier, its the only way my sammy can take him easily. Also there 100% energy as he mana drains so much.

    100% Energy Daisho's
    ML
    SL
    HLA
    Demon slayer
    DI

    Thunderz
     
  16. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    Main thing i use a dashio on is the renowned wyrven. Ive tried it with a hit lower attack weapon, without much luck. Still died relatively quickly, or had to run away. The dashio works great tho, can just stand there and spam feint. That wyrven hits hard tho, and even with the feint you lose Alot of stam, so i opted to put 30 ssi on it, along with 10 ssi from items. I guess hla might work too, but for me i dont think the mana leech would be consistent enough to keep feint up, and i only have 5regen and 10lmc on the suit.
     
  17. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    Thunderz, I haven't had luck getting elemental daishos.. any tips for where to hunt?

    Smoot, if you spam any special like feint or AI over and over the first one is at reduced mana cost (if you qualify, based on skills) but the 2nd is DOUBLE the mana cost (mana penalty). Thats why you are running out of power. You have to have 3 seconds pass between specials or you get the mana penalty.

    Try this instead: Feint, LS, LS, Feint... or Feint, regular hit, regular hit, Feint... basically, hit it with 2 other things between feints. Feint lasts 10 sec and Daisho is a fast weap so feint should not wear off, plus you should have more mana overall.

    Here is the link where it talks about reduced mana cost and mana penalty.
    http://uo.stratics.com/content/arms-armor/specialmoves.php
     
  18. Thunderz

    Thunderz Certifiable
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    I burn low end runics to get all mine but i have seen them as loot, i "think" it was while collecting keys for travesty (just wirlwind the whole room down there).

    Thunderz
     
  19. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    what type of low end runics if i may ask?

    not too familiar with smithing stuff so i assume just get appropriate type hammer, ingots which match hammer, and make stuff?
     
  20. Thunderz

    Thunderz Certifiable
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    Dull and shadow runic hammers, just craft the item you want (i.e. Daishos) with normal ingots untill you get some with 100% elemental damage with no useless mods. I have 1000s of bods so not hard to get them but you can usually pick them up from 1-10k per or find a smith and buy bulk :)

    Thunderz
     
  21. Garm The Green

    Garm The Green Lore Master
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    Just solod rikki for first time on Sammy instead of ABC. Had a daisho slayer, found feint good, but a bit backwards. Why?

    Because I'm used to a bladed staff where when i am hit I spam AI once or twice and have full HP/STAM and often 90% mana. It also does the beastie more harm, and doesn't require hit chance check twice.

    On the other hand using feint on a daisho, i wouldn't regen/leech as much and have made my next attempt regain health/stam (double strike) more expensive, plus double strike is less reliable.

    I thought daisho were gonna rule the roost, but they just don't seem to be able to pump out enough damage to keep momentum. As M.Ali said - the best defence is a strong offence!
    Maybe this isn't true for Paroxy etc, but for rikki, daisho seemed kinda hit and miss. literally.

    I figure, if you're relying on feint, you aint ready yet?

    Or maybe i just haven't found the right purpose for it yet? Rend perhaps?


    Ps. Mind you, the daisho wasn't the best as i had 30% SSI on it rather than a slayer property - doh! live and learn!
     
  22. Garm The Green

    Garm The Green Lore Master
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    Just get dull copper hammers as all you want is the elemental type (and maybe if it's there SSI/HSL/HML/DI/HLA/HLD/Slayer) as well as exceptional bonus. Use iron ingots, as coloured ingots can affect imbuing property intensity. You wont get many good ones mind, so you might need to burn 10-15 hammers to get ones without stupid mods like mage weap, faster cast, lizardman slayer etc etc.
     
  23. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    just tried it.. my smith is like 69 skill so i can make double axes. didnt really get any keepers, but got some i might imbue in the future. will need to work this smith up so i can make better stuff...

    the cool thing is i can unravel the crap i make for imbuing ingreds:)
     
  24. Garm The Green

    Garm The Green Lore Master
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    dude, whack 0.1 skill on all your toons, then go collect a smith bod every hour and you can start farming your own runics...woot!

    You might get POFs too which always help the cause...
     
  25. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    Thanks for the help, i do just use feint to keep it up, not just spam it, but also have to use consecrate weapon unfortuantly, untill i get lucky and make the elemental damage dashio ive kinda given up on for the time being.
     
  26. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    i bought 60k ingots for 1 mil in luna and have worked it up to 109 in just a couple days. dc hammers are 1k on my server. probably worth this short timeout for you to start getting better gear for yourself. also, good news is i am approaching the point where i can craft runic red dragonscale armor. just one or two pieces will help me have the fire resist i'm looking for!