1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

the LMC bonus for certain skills outdated?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Trevor Peterson, Oct 22, 2015.

  1. Trevor Peterson

    Trevor Peterson Adventurer

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    8
    All the weapon skills, bushido, ninjitsu, stealth, and poison give a LMC bonus for every 100skill points you have in them for your special moves(capped at 300). This has been in the game for a very long time and it just seems like a outdated thing to me, especially with the new expansion's mastery system wanting us to put more skill points into skills that ARE NOT apart of the those skills that provide the LMC bonus to properly use the mastery abilities.

    I dont know what the devs call this particular skill group that provide this LMC bonus for getting 300 points in them but they seem to be combat related so ive personally called them "combat points". But yet tactics and anatomy do not go towards combat points and still the masteries require you add skill points into these skills to use masteries proficiently.

    Example: my templet is 120archer 100tactics 100anatomy 100healing 120ninja 120resist and 60bushido
    120archery, 120ninja, 60bushido(60bush is very inconvient would much rather have 6x120) is how is reach 300 combat points for the LMC bonus to specials. But in order to use masteries proficiently i need 120tactics and/or 120anatomy.

    It just seems like its very outdated and counter productive towards this expansion. Since these skill points do seem combat related possibly add tactics and anatomy to this skill group? I'm sure theres many ways this could be updated. Sometimes i joke with people that the devs just added this game mechanic in many years ago and just forgot about it. FREE THE MASTERIES!
     
    #1 Trevor Peterson, Oct 22, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2015
    Cetric likes this.
  2. Podolak

    Podolak Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    3,075
    Likes Received:
    658
    Or Chivalry
    Or Focus aka "Battle Focus" as it was originally implemented as. It was originally the warrior's version of meditation (especially considering it regens stamina and mana) prior to it being used for Mysticism.
     
  3. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,110
    Likes Received:
    907
    Definitely could use a redo.

    Ever since they made Joat skill not factor in, its always sucked building a template with that in mind. Could just throw tactics into the mix and it would fix it for the most part.
     
    DJAd, King Greg and BeaIank like this.
  4. Podolak

    Podolak Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    3,075
    Likes Received:
    658
    IMO they should probably just re-evaluate mana cost (and by this I do not mean RAISE please oh god please do not RAISE) and equalize mana cost across the board doing away with the weapon skill mana reduction.

    Of course on the flip side it won't be too much longer before a mage comes in here who has trouble surviving a gank by 4+ archers and says this will break his ability to have no problem fighting off 3 or less dexxers. Just saying...
     
  5. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    2,275
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    Chivalry, focus and tactics counting towards it would be pretty great.
    I have always toyed with using focus on some of my dexxers, but the regen definitely doesn't make up for the higher special mana cost.
     
  6. Thrakkar

    Thrakkar Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,357
    Likes Received:
    342
    TBH, I never understood, why physical attacks cost mana (from a players view, from a developerts view I can understand it, as it is simply a "spell", which is "cast").
    I'd be all in for it to make them cost stamina.
    But that would be a huge revamp and a huge balance impact.
    Nevertheless, it would be cool, even it is guaranteed, that this will never happen...
     
  7. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Messages:
    6,521
    Likes Received:
    2,911
    Yeah I don't get why bushi and ninja get it, but not chiv. It can ONLY be used by a warrior.
     
  8. Deraj

    Deraj Sage
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    417
    I don't understand why bushido and ninjitsu are qualifying skills, but chivalry is not. I do like the limitations this system creates by promoting certain skill combinations, but if too many skills are made to qualify for mana reduction, the whole thing becomes arbitrary. So what if something similar to spellcasting focus specs was used for the three "schools" of warrior, those being paladin, samurai, and ninja, that conferred additional bonuses for "pure" templates that did not employ multiple schools. Let's consider a general template:

    Weapon Skill (mana reduction qualifier)
    Tactics - These two skills are the basis of any warrior template
    Anatomy
    Healing - Generally, the primary form of healing for non-sampires
    Warrior School - Chivalry, Bushido, Ninjitsu, or None (mana reduction qualifier and potential focus spec)
    Warrior Auxiliary - Focus, Parry, Stealth, Poison, Lumberjacking (mana reduction qualifier) - These give the template greater specialization
    7th skill - Either a 7th skill and/or distributed to the previous skills

    Let's make an assumption in this case that focus isn't worthless, for the sake of example. I'm looking at general warrior templates as something of a hierarchy; the warrior begins with the weapon class. The warrior is then further defined by the school, and beyond their that profession is further specialized by the auxiliaries. The bonus they receive for being "focused" could be, maybe, an additional 5 points of mana reduction (or whatever, use your imagination). "None" implies that neither chiv, bush, or ninjitsu are chosen which could be it's own kind of nameless school itself, a pure-pure warrior or however you wish to see it. Nothing would change with sampire templates, and may even improve those that rely on only one school. It only provides another layer of trade-offs for template designs.

    Okay, done rambling. Just throwing it out there.
     
  9. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,548
    Likes Received:
    548
    They definitely should throw pure warriors a bone, they're just not nearly as viable as having bushido and chivalry in PvM.

    Tactics and Chivalry should be added to the skill list, though.
     
    Obsidian likes this.
  10. IceCast

    IceCast Journeyman

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2015
    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    22
    i think they should either:

    1 - revamp jack of all trades
    2 - allow skill increase bonus to also count towards the 300% total skill neeeded
    3 - introduce chivalry as a skill towards the group, no one but a warrior uses this.
    4 - perhaps make it so that when u have anatomy + tactics combined it counts as 100 skill points, for example 100 anat + 100 tactics = 100 skill points towards the 300 skill bonus.
     
  11. Deraj

    Deraj Sage
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    417
    I disagree with making tactics a qualifying skill for mana reduction. The reason is, warriors will always have tactics, no matter what. No serious warrior can actually go without it because they won't able to use special skills, so right off the bat you would instantly get a 5 point mana reduction for making no choice at all, and I think that the mana reduction bonus should be based on making choices and trade-offs between different possible templates.
     
  12. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2009
    Messages:
    6,750
    Likes Received:
    3,543
    i agree. tactics, and anatomy, possibly healing or chivalry or focus should be "combat" skills. especially with the new masteries, theres not really much benefit to the mastery becuase you need those skill points for the bonus. like my pvm characters, ill do chivalry for the mana bonus but the mastery will always be crap becuase i need those other skill points just for the lmc bonus. i have 180 skill points on some pvm archers that are pure filler, used for nothing except the bonus.

    it really limits effective use of the new masteries. especailly for pvp (which seems the focus of many masteries) its almost impossible to make a viable template thats well rounded and can actually take advantage of masteries that need 120 tactics to be effective.
     
  13. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    Messages:
    2,729
    Likes Received:
    1,396
    I say, make Tactics, Anatomy & Healing count towards the LMC bonus as well, BUT remove the Tactics requirement for weapon specials , make them weapon skill only.

    (that past OP)

    Especially since the masteries require tactics @90.0 and up, I don't think it would hurt to allow people to use specials without having tactics nowadays, it would open up more templates as well...
     
    Uvtha likes this.
  14. Lord Arm

    Lord Arm Seasoned Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2014
    Messages:
    489
    Likes Received:
    275
    it doesn't need changes at this time. don't u think we are powerful enough. new stuff just came out. lets wait a good while before we say gimmie gimmie gimmie I want I want I want lol.
    only issue I see is the samp/vamp/bush compared to pure warrior.
     
    King Greg likes this.
  15. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,019
    Likes Received:
    430
    Chivalry definitely should count towards the Special Move Mana Reduction now, especially since they changed it to where higher skill is no longer redundant, and Chiv needs to be 80.0+ to be reliable/useful.
    Tactics and Anatomy should not, since Tactics is already a requirement for all Warriors, and Anatomy is a requirement for all non Sampire/Whammy Warriors.
    Focus needs a revamp definitely, since it's completely superceded by HSL/HML and MR. I remember that a long time ago (8+ years ago) the devs planned to make Focus interact with the Mana Regeneration property on items, and act as a modifier on it. Like if you had GM Focus and 12 MR on items, each point of item MR would increase your mana regeneration rate by 0.2/sec. Yet if you had 0 Focus and 12 MR on items, each point of item MR would only increase your mana regenerate rate by 0.1/sec.

    I think the nerf on Jack of All Trades should be reverted, the extra skill points it adds should count towards Special Move Mana Reduction. Currently, Humans are completely superceded by Elves and Gargoyles in almost all roles, except for when it comes to gathering Leather.
    Elves make for better Warriors due to +20 Mana/+5 Energy Resist Cap, better Mages due to +20 Mana, and better Prospectors (Gatherer) due to higher harvest chance of high end ore/wood.
    Gargoyles make for better ranged Warriors due to +5 HCI/Berserk/+2 MR (although they're not as good at Melee Warriors as Humans, mainly due to less weapon selection and inability to ride an Armored Swamp Dragon), better Mages due to +2 MR and ability to fly at mount speed with a Rising Colossus out, and better crafters due to increased Imbuing success chance.
     
  16. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,019
    Likes Received:
    430
    The 90.0 Tactics requirement was put on Weapon Specials specifically to prevent most Mages from abusing SC weps in PvP for an overwhelming offensive advantage. A lot of skills/abilities have received nerfs over time specifically because Mage templates have abused the **** out of them in the past.
     
  17. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    Messages:
    2,729
    Likes Received:
    1,396

    Right, and now most mages have shield-bash, essentially a 30 damage stun-punch without tactics, and they remain non-disarmable. thus if it had been changed, little to no harm done.
     
  18. chad

    chad Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    48
    It's a sad state of affairs that templates are less diverse now than they were 10 years ago, despite new gear being insane. I think a removal or revamp of the 300 combat point system would be a step in the right direction.
     
  19. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2014
    Messages:
    1,392
    Likes Received:
    478
    I say we nerf chad. seriously OP

    Why can't we revamp skills along with stat caps instead? A fresh start might be just what we need...
     
  20. funkymonkey

    funkymonkey Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    960
    Likes Received:
    162
    Bring back toggled specs.

    Then we can see the return of chiv dexxers and opens up more templates that can be used for mages again.

    Another pointless nerf the Dev team did.
     
  21. kaio

    kaio Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Messages:
    731
    Likes Received:
    213
    I think the "combat skill" mana reduction should be completly removed, and replaced with a flat one, scaled with weaponskill/tactics.
    Back in the days before studd 55% LMC cap etc etc, there really was a need to give dexxers some kind of bonus so they had a decent chance to use more than 1 special a week.
    But lets face it, those days are gone, now and for the sake of simplicity lets remove it.
     
    Uvtha likes this.
  22. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
    Moderator Professional Campaign Patron UWF

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,565
    Likes Received:
    2,369
    is there a UO guide link that talks about this bonus? was trying to explain it to some guildies, but wasn't getting it through. couldn't find it on UOG myself either.
     
  23. Podolak

    Podolak Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    3,075
    Likes Received:
    658
    Folks,

    I implore you to test this for yourself, I tested it a few years ago and I just tested it again today. +skill items do count toward the weapon special mana reduction bonus. Here is the results of my test today:

    55 lmc, 84 mana.

    300 real skill points toward weapon skills (120 sword, 120 bushido, 60 parry):
    AI took me from 84 mana to 75 mana

    [​IMG]

    280 real skill points and NO +skill items (120 swords, 120 bushido, 40 parry)
    AI took me from 84 mana to 72 mana

    [​IMG]

    280 real skill points and +20 item skill points (300 total) (120 swords, 120 bushido, 40 parry real, +20 stealth cloak)
    AI took me from 84 to 75 mana just like 300 real skill points.

    [​IMG]

    Test this yourself everyone but its always been this way for me on different characters.
     
    #23 Podolak, Nov 14, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2015
    SoulWeaver likes this.
  24. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    2,275
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    The +skill items do count towards the mana reduction. I know for sure that the +5 archery from the despicable quiver is counting on a character of mine that uses 120 swords, 120 bushido and 55 parry (I wear a shield, so eh). The +5 from the quiver makes me reach the 300 points and I get the full mana reduction.
     
  25. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2009
    Messages:
    6,750
    Likes Received:
    3,543
    id ditch the shield. reduces parry down to 5 percent when you have shield with bushido.
     
  26. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    2,275
    Likes Received:
    1,575
    The shield is mod heavy, with lmc, int, dex, mana, stam, ssi, DI and resists. And with this setup, it will last forever because my character never parries. :p
    It was a conscious decision. The shield mods more than make up for not parrying at all.
     
    King Greg and Smoot like this.
  27. PwnySlaystation

    PwnySlaystation Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2001
    Messages:
    847
    Likes Received:
    192
    The real problem is casters cant compete in pvm. Literally the most uselsss chars for pvm are mages. The amount of sdi needed combined with a real lack of mana makes pvm on a mage (single big dmg/high hp mobs) makes playing a mage for pvm pointless. Warrior chars already have it good with the sampire era and lmc bonus's/mana leech options.

    How about some lmc bonus for casters?

    Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
     
  28. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 24, 2008
    Messages:
    6,521
    Likes Received:
    2,911
    Spell AI's?
     
  29. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2009
    Messages:
    6,750
    Likes Received:
    3,543
    to get heals and damage on mage you only need 240 skill points for max
    max heals / damage on warrior you need minumum 540 skill points

    thats the difference. I wouldnt expect a mage using only 240 skill points to out damage a charcter using 540.

    if magery is combined with other dps skills it can be just as good as a dexter. combine with high damage pets (not a greater dragon...) or myts (rising collussos) and throw in spellweaving, and necro for mana vamp your dps should be where it should be.

    also keep in mind most casters spells arent meant for pure dps, so they shouldnt be equal to warrior. if i could also cast fields, and have all the support spells a mage does (like even gates) on a dexter then i would say yes mage dps should be boosted.
     
    Uvtha likes this.
  30. drcossack

    drcossack Babbling Loonie
    Governor Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    2,711
    Likes Received:
    584
    I think more might be needed than that. It depends on the monster, but there's stuff I kill in 2-3 hits (basically, White Wyrms, Ice Fiends, and Arctic Ogre Lords) just with a slayer, with a pvp suit. With an SDI suit, I could one-shot them, I would guess. When I actually DO pvm on a mage (when not at a champ spawn, anyway), it's either on my tamer or mystic.

    Prior to the masteries, I would use my sampire for killing most things. With consume damage, I can just let my greater go off on its own, tanking groups even my sampire couldn't. It's not the most efficient way to kill quickly, but if I'm paired with a sampire there isn't much that won't go down fast.
     
  31. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2014
    Messages:
    1,392
    Likes Received:
    478
    Shouldn't there just be an overhaul to the game mechanics in general to catch up with the current loot patch?

    It just seems that everything is outdated due to the insane stats we can now achieve. With the amount of stats we can fit along with pushing skills to an even higher level the basic game mechanics are not really keeping up.

    I.E. 150hp to me is out dated with the amount of damage that can be done. A simple fix by increasing it by 10hpi would make suits tougher to achieve and allow a slight chance to increase suviability.

    Same with LMC, if we pushed it to 50 for mage and 65 for dexer we would have to really try and fit in LMC. Thus giving the current loot pub a slight nerf.

    Haven't thought about it all that much, but it only seems practical.