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The Meaning of "Sandbox"

Discussion in 'UHall' started by GalenKnighthawke, Sep 25, 2012.

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  1. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    The term "sandbox game" is thrown around a lot. To some, unfortunately, it seems to mean "the ability to harm other players." Thankfully, UO's no longer that kind of sandbox, to anywhere near the degree that once it was. That kinda sucked and many of us left when we had another option. (It was called Everquest, and EQ, unlike say Shadowbane, is still around and in fact has more Facebook friends than UO. What if anything that metric means I can't say.)

    To me sandbox game means that I can if I choose just lead my character's daily life, but there's a broader world going on in the background. That world consists of epic stuff and other players just doing their thing around me. I'm neither forced to participate in that background, nor can I completely ignore it, and if I want to participate in it there's multiple points of entry. (Many ways to do the epic stuff, and to interact with other players.)

    To me sandbox game means that my character's most treasured memory doesn't have to do anything with fighting anyone or anything, because plenty more goes on in my character's life than combat.

    I could go on and on but I have to go...Hopefully my meaning is clear.

    -Galen's player
     
  2. Woodsman

    Woodsman Guest

    While parts of UO are not longer like a sandbox to me, there are a few areas, namely player housing, that make up for it. Very few other games have persistent/non-instanced player housing, and none offer the degree of flexibility that UO offers. If I had kept even just a couple of accounts active continuously (or using the 90 day thing like some do) from the first time I played UO, I could have a house that is 10+ years old. That's pretty amazing to me.

    I mentioned this in another thread, when I logged in to WOW last night, it hit me yet again that there was no way for me to truly leave my mark. A minute after I'm gone, you would never know it. I can't put down a weapon that has my name on it and have somebody come along 5 minutes later and see it and wonder who it is. I can't build a house that will stand for years, where people can come in and look around, use some of the equipment, write on a bulletin board, etc.

    I know that gets more into the persistent side of things, but that's part of the sandbox appeal to me, because I'm shaping the world if I put down a house or leave an item for others to see.
     
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  3. Phoenix_Mythic

    Phoenix_Mythic UO Legend
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    As a professional in the games business with many years of experience, I have never heard the term "sandbox game" used to refer to PvP.

    If you google "sandbox game", the top result is the Wikipedia entry for "Open World", which correctly defines the meaning of "sandbox" in the context of games.

    Open world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  4. Dakkon Blackblade

    Dakkon Blackblade Seasoned Veteran
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    Galen you and I will likely never see eye to eye on the issue of player interaction, but I feel like you are incorrect about the way player interaction should be handled. The danger in anything is in extremes whether the game is too safe for players or too threatening either way it is problematic. I see player killers and thieves as serving an important function in the bigger picture the same way I see crafters and hunters serving an important role, and no I don't mean as fodder for those who explore the darker side of their characters.

    I see it similar to the way the animal kingdom works, if in a certain area a population of rabbits has no control placed against it, eventually they consume all of the vegetation in the area and their population explodes until it can no longer sustain itself due to resource shortages, as opposed to inserting say wolves to counterbalance the rabbit population so that it looks more like rabbits have grass to eat, wolves have rabbits to eat, and hunters have wolves to hunt.

    Another thing to look at is how a population of overly coddled players devalue everything, because basic resources are so easily obtained they lose their value in a community sense, I have no need to get anything from anyone else, I don't need to interact with anyone else, I can be completely self sufficient so where do I end up? by myself, in a massive world full of other players I end up feeling as though I am on my own. Granted the analogy I used was crude and far from perfect, I feel like it gets the general point I am trying to make across.

    On the other side of the coin I can understand why the developers had to err on the side of caution when they made the decision to remove the open world aspect of UO in terms of player interaction, sadly we cannot force others to be mature players in their aforementioned roles, and sadly in UO's early days it attracted many immature PvP players who left a giant black spot on the entire idea. Then a decision was made as to whether we let a few rotten eggs spoil the entire game and they made what they felt was the right decision at the time.

    Not looking for an argument or anything just wanted to say, that a game without community, at least for me is a game I don't see the point in playing, even if part of the community interaction is not always pleasant.
     
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  5. Coldren

    Coldren Sage
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    I think the term "Sandbox", and even "Open World" is missing the mark of what people really find interesting with games that they ascribe to that definition.

    What UO had, and for some reason stopped pursing in earnest (Along with most of the genre it seems) is more properly coined Emergent Gameplay. It's a method by which the developer creates a set of tools (The building blocks, if you will) by which the users of said tools can create their own content. There is also such a thing as unintentional emergence, where some things happen that were not intended (Second Life is a textbook example of this), but I think most of that happens because the implications and limitations of the systems are not properly thought out and implemented.

    Somewhere down the line, it seemed UO just stopped looking at emergent systems. There are no more new or planned systems that are not just simply limited lifespan events or excuses to generate new items, or recreation of existing content. No, I don't want a UO like SL where people can literally write their own code and upload assets, but certainly there is room for more systems that allow for players to shape their own content and experiences with more consistent limitations that fit within the world.


    ***What follows is purely an example. It is not to say this should be done, but to demonstrate a methodology or thought process that is not being utilized to it's fullest capacity.***


    Let's say we start with the new City Loyalty "system". It started out just doing three things - Putting out fires/cleaning up trash, capturing rioters, and giving stuff to angry citizens. Thankfully they started to add to this, and you can now turn in BoD's, resources, pets, even hunt monsters and get credit. And you can buy a title, or a nice banner. But where is this system ultimately going? I can probably tell you where it's NOT going, and why it's a missed opportunity.

    So you now have a city loyalty you can declare for. The mistake was not making this loyalty account wide instead of character based, because think of what it COULD have been. Had they done that, your account can optionally be declared loyal to a city. Now let's take it the next step - What if you could opt into a PvP system that replaced factions and order/chaos, and was instead city based? And what if control of the city was actually done by players, determing what taxes to impose, levels of guard protection, alliances with other cities, what merchants to offer, elections? Now you have political aspects that players would play out in one way or another, even in no-combative ways.. But why do it for something other than pixel crack?

    We have houses - Why can't groups of player houses create towns, with walls that can be built around them, and are associated with their closest city, and taxes are collected, and a new "capture" point is created for the opposing faction. If you take the town you collect the taxes. But what can people do to defend their city, their towns, from other factions? Siege to break down the walls and doors? Players being able to repair structures? What if a horde of zombies lead by Minax would attack the city with the most control points, taking those points until another city takes them back, making the city with the most control points make decisions about utilizing the content they've earned, and defending it from both players and NPC's? This sounds all well and good for a pollitcal or PvP base, but what about non-PvP'ers?

    What if controlling the most control points opened a PvE dungeon? What if turning in resources to your city or making donations or the more towns your cities founded opened up other dungeons? Make new crafting recipes based on a city's virtue that you declared for, making a nice black market item to other cities. Make resources to make these items tied into to the PvE dungeons a city controls, giving a reason for people to partake in other play styles. Unique events that occur in them? What if you could set up a stall in your city, for a price, as well as have a housing merchant? And on, and on, and on.


    Again, this was just an example system, not just singular events or occurrences, that lets players affect the world directly. It's a limited and shallow example of one, but even those aren't being considered. It's just release a dungeon, put new items with it, with no actual effect or desire to have an effect on the players.

    Emergent systems are where the player is the dynamic, non-static focal point of any aspect of the game - not just incidental. And sadly, when people say they want a "sandbox" what I think they want is where their chosen method of play is relevant to the world, whether it's combat in PvP or PvE, roleplaying, crafting, or just exploring, and that they can CREATE a place for their role in the world, either among friends or everyone else. They aren't just things created BY a community - Quite the opposite, they actually CREATE the community around them. And in today's games, communities aren't really necessary.

    UO started on that path - I wish they'd walk it again.

    My opinion, of course.
     
    #5 Coldren, Sep 25, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  6. Pawain

    Pawain Crazed Zealot
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    Railroad Tycoon has a sandbox mode. You can place track and trains anywhere and it costs nothing. UO is not a sandbox game. IMO sandbox means you can play the game and have access to all aspects and not have to spend gold or do quests to get that access. Basically sandbox is easier than easy mode.

    Maybe the term "sandbox" pre-dates the OPs gaming experience.
     
  7. NBG

    NBG Lore Master
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    I think sandbox means a flexible environment where players has the option to construct and define their own game play. While UO's flexibility has narrowed significantly compared to 15 years ago, it is still the MMO game that offers the least amount of game play constraint.

    I think the idealized sandbox online environment is perfectly captured in the Anime Feature Summer Wars where no constraint exist and players' virtual versus real life interaction is merged.
     
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  8. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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  9. Eaerendil

    Eaerendil Professional Mall Santa and Legendary Piglet
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    He might have a different concept of "sandbox" than you and me - but I have to agree to this statement. When I left UO many many years ago, there was much aggression. When I came back, there was less. And I feel, it has to do with things many veterans consider as a sacrileg (right spelling?): Trammel.

    THANK GOD FOR TRAMMEL!
     
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  10. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    I think it's always tempting to apply our own ideas of what we feel UO should be when we describe our ideal sandbox. But having seen how the evolution of UO's sandbox has impacted the game, I don't think a gentler sandbox is a good idea. Alas I also think if we tried to go back to the old game, few of today's players would stick around. As the game has evolved, the community that stuck with it favour those changes. They just wouldn't be compatible with the old UO. Old UO for me was the game and the players in it at the time. Neither can be brought back - trust me I tried and failed on both counts there.

    When I started in UO you could be despicably evil, but you could also spend your entire game time helping others and fighting the evil in the game. Less than 3 months old I joined the SBR on Europa, a guild that relied on both a supply of bad guys and innocent citizens to protect and ally with. We had a very strict code to follow, we RP'd and yet we also PvP'd our socks off. Back then, both good and bad need each other - virtuous folks like the SBR need enemies. Likewise, the bad guy can't say he's the most hated citizen if nobody cares who he attacks, and he's probably not so interested in being evil if he doesn't have anyone trying to bring him to justice. While some players don't like that playstyle, and wanted to choose the safe environment that Tram offered, for many of us Fel created friendships and relationships that went far into RL and I consider myself blessed to have had them.

    The game as it is now, in Fel especially has lost a lot of its appeal, because that whole community balance has been thrown against the wall. Fel is that PvP facet even to the devs. It's exceptional to find a player in Fel who isn't a PvPer, albeit sometimes you may find their crafter characters. There's no point really chasing down a PK because the PKs don't really exist any more. It's champs or GTFO lol. There is no reason why I'd want to PvP any more. I used to adore PvP now I avoid it through total disinterest. I suspect today's passion in UO is items, suits being able to solo bosses. For me it was community, the wild sandbox of Fel and the fun of being RPing one moment and fighting a pack of reds the next. It wasn't all rose tinted, I swore and got frustrated like any player did. But even the most obnoxious players left a gap when they weren't there.

    Wenchy
     
  11. Arrgh

    Arrgh Sage
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    Thanks for clearing that up!

    I can't understand why other developers haven't copied what U.O. has become instead of being lazy or cautious and making yet another WoW, EQ, [insert more dull game names here] cookie cutters. Those games are so common and soooo boring I don't give them a second glance.

    I was hoping someone would create another Ultima Online 'open world' game that would last another several years but instead of having that retro look it would have that nice, new shiny penny look like Aion, Crysis and Bethesda games. I'm pretty sure if someone were to do that correctly, with pvp flagging system, proper marketing, etc AND (ahem) cookie cut UO instead of some lame system like I have seen coming out over the last several years, that company might get rich but what do I know right?
     
  12. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Phoenix:

    Hopefully the fact that it took so long to reply won't be seen as acquiescence or agreement. I simply have not been able to respond until now.

    I am aware broadly speaking of how the term is used in the general gaming world. (For example, I'm aware of the use of the term in the Grand Theft Auto franchise, and I've used the term to describe how I played Ultima 4 for awhile, essentially ignoring the plot and just wandering around the world as an adventurer. Both those contexts by definition have no PvP.)

    However, I think it should be rather obvious, in a message board devoted to UO, that I was referring specifically to the use of that term in a UO context. (I do not think this assumption is unreasonable.)

    And, in that context (a specifically UO context), I have not only seen the term sandbox used to refer to PvP, but I've also seen it used to refer to harming other players. And harming other players is what I cited. PvP overlaps with that, but the two should not be equated.

    For one example, look at Dakkon's thoughtful and well-done post, in this very thread. (Hate to quote you like this, Dakkon, but it seems fair.)

    The implications of his words, the treating of players as animals and what appears to be his own self-identification with predatory animals, more or less represents what I'm talking about.

    Perhaps another day when I have more time I'll engage him directly and show him where I think that his analogy, and his conclusions, are incorrect. But for now, Phoenix, in addressing you, it's enough to point out that the analogy was made, and the words were used.

    -Galen's player
     
  13. Dakkon Blackblade

    Dakkon Blackblade Seasoned Veteran
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    Galen, no offense taken, but I somehow knew you would read my analogy in that manner, you seem to be taking it quite literally and I assure you I do not see others as animals nor myself as a predatory one at that. Truthfully as much as I enjoyed Order vs Chaos PvP I had most of my fun times working at Brit Forge on Atlantic helping newer players. As I said the analogy was quite crude and perhaps I should have given the issue more thought so as to parse my words in a more docile example.

    I stand by my thought that a complete community includes even unsavory types, and I suppose one thing I found disappointing, was the fact that there weren't many so called good natured types that could fight their way out of a wet paper bag. It isn't to my mind even about whether we wish to fight or not, in my day to day life I don't at all look forward to ever being in a fight but I know how to fight if need be, and that is the vacuum I always wanted to see filled.

    I'm not rooting for the PK I am rooting for the good guy who shows the pk that there is another way, that hero who doesn't give into the intimidation or fear, but rather is willing to engage in combat if necessary to protect himself or others, I enjoy the interaction between vastly different playstyles. I also believe that if the PK community as a whole had not been so immature and out of control in the early days, they could have provided an important niche in the roleplaying community as well, there were some who did that and did it well, but as I mentioned earlier sadly a few rotten eggs ruined the cake.

    Of course it's also important to remember how many people playing back then were younger and naturally maturity was in short supply on many shards, it still doesn't change the fact that those times were the most fun I've ever had playing a game in spite of some morons trying to ruin it for everyone.
     
  14. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    My idea of a sandbox game is a game where you can advance without being locked into a certain path doing certain quests fighting certain monsters in a set path of advancement through the game.

    In UO you can do such a wide variety of things based on what kind of mood your in when you have Playtime, whereas in most games out there it's pretty much fight mighty monsters and that's it. They have one flavor of play and your stuck with it, which means that game gets old real quick. In UO you can do anything from bank sit to PvP, whatever your in the mood for.
     
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  15. claudia-fjp

    claudia-fjp Lore Master
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    A Sandbox game is a game with mutability. No other game out there has the shear DEPTH of UO. You can PVP (Factions, World, Arena, Champ Spawns), PVM, Craft, Garden, Brew Booze, Treasure Hunting, Kill Pirates, Fish (Now with Deadliest Catch Crabbing action), Design Houses, Hunt IDOCs (Storage Wars meets Real Estate), Be a Merchant (Buy low, sell high), Steal Stuff, Role Play...

    and if you wanted you could do all of that with 1 single character because in uo you can change who you are any time you want.

    THAT is the meaning of Sandbox.
     
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  16. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Lots of reasons for this, which I could go into for pages and pages.

    Even more frustrating is the fact that most of the reasons I have observed are not mutually exclusive, and thus several of them can all be true at the same time.

    The gist of many of the reasons, however, is that there's a certain kind of mindset that you see in full-on, Fel-based, "winner take all" PvP, which is simply not compatible with playing a good guy.

    The gist of some of the other reasons is the cheating issue. People who want to play good guys in my experience typically don't cheat, and if you believe half of what PvPers say about each other half the time, then all PvPers cheat all the time. (To those of you who will only read that last clause, and not the rest of the sentence and think I'm saying all PvPers cheat all the time? Well, learn to read whole sentences!) While I don't believe that all PvPers cheat all the time, the point is that they cheat often enough that they make one another think that a lot of cheating is going on. Even if they are exaggerating their own perceptions, the point is that they are perceiving something.

    Finally I will say that there's a degree to which the lack of PvP prowess among the good-natured types has been exaggerated. I've had many victories in PvP in my day, and I've been in PvP-centric guilds multiple times in my UO career. However, it becomes easy for the less-good-natured types (and for anyone who objects to my using the term good-natured, remember that it's Dakkon's term and I'm just quoting it!) to forget about, ignore, or flat-out lie about our victories. I have many times in my UO career won a fight only to have the outcome publicly denied, or ascribed to some hack I'm allegedly running. Also, I am typically reminded about various (incorrect) "facts" about how bad my real life is, and how great my defeated foe's is. (I can only assume my defeated foe thinks that this somehow erases my victory, even if these facts were true.)

    My favorite, I think, was the fellow who told me to "go rp or something; i don't have time for you" as he died. He continued to repeatedly spam something, probably that same line, after he died. All I saw of course were OooooOooos.

    I can only assume that that stuff was made to discourage me and guess what? It worked! While I'm still in Fel on occasion I can honestly say that I've gone to Fel less often in the last few months than I have since the split happened. All of the smack finally had its desired impact.

    -Galen's player
     
  17. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    OK "here we go again"
    SandBox = a home based play yard consisting of sand in a wooden play box of multi sizes to fit any play area.
    Modern use of this in a "gaming" world is basicly the same meaning.
    A based game area consisting of multi tactical playing enviroments contained in a structured area.

    Gentilmen and Ladys, this is a sandbox. Infact all games are in their own fraim of the term. UO has been and still is a sandbox for all its players and fans.

    Petra , staff .... its time to put the kapesch to this thread as well, before we have a fight about silly sand.
     
  18. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Let the mods moderate... OK?
     
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  19. Dakkon Blackblade

    Dakkon Blackblade Seasoned Veteran
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    I don't think anyone is fighting here Lady Storm, Galen and I have somewhat opposing views, but I do not share any malcontent for him, just a bit of discussion really, and as different as our viewpoints may be I certainly respect Galen for his well written and thought out posts.
     
  20. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Galen, competitive behaviour is present among plants and animals all over the world. It drives our evolution and progress as a species. It's not a "Fel" thing :)

    As for cheating, lying and general anti social behaviour... that's human again. People cheat and lie in Tram just as much as they do in Fel.

    It wouldn't matter what game we play, we are going to express our personalities one way or another, however free/restricted that sandbox is. I've known quite a few very sweet nice Tram RPers who had a very evil character who griefed, stole, PK'd, whatever. Different characters and behaviours sometimes just reflect a person's mood at the time. Letting off steam with some PvP one night, happily RPing as a bar wench the next. Same person.

    If you don't believe me saying that people are jerks regardless of facet, just watch the next event where players can get some new shiny. You'll see all the competitive, cheating, lying and anti-social behaviour you ever wanted :D

    Basically, human behaviour has nothing to do with our sandbox and its lack of rules. You can tighten things right up and people will still find a way to be jerks to each other. That's life.

    Wenchy
     
  21. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    To me it's the ability to do what I like, when I like, if I like, for as long as I like and if there's some aspect of the game that I don't particularly like, or don't feel is within my capabilities as a player, then I don't have to play that part.
     
  22. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    *nods*

    I don't think anything here is likely to call down moderator wrath, nor should. Dakkon and I have actually been pretty complementary of each other. His complement to me is right above, and here's mine to him, stated earlier:

    -Galen's player
     
  23. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    Couldnt have said it better myself Petra...
    I play UO MY WAY.
     
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  24. Izzy MBC

    Izzy MBC Journeyman
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    I don't recall feeling restrained in UO much at all, which I guess is the Sandbox-breaking problem - when you aren't able to do something that really you should be able to do.

    There's not really any "Invisible walls" for example, something so simple and god awful that can hurt immersion for other (apparently labelled as such) Sandbox games.

    I can challenge any creature in any Dungeon, I can actually fight my way solo to a Peerless boss. I'll get completely trashed in the final fight, but I can sure as hell do it if I want. There's no level/skill restrictions to certain area's (bar very minor exceptions, which tend to be justified in a game world sense). There's no darned metaphorical invisible walls.

    There's so much useful fluff like claudia-fjp pointed out that you truly can do anything. You can even legitimately assume the more unlikely career paths, like a Fisherman, Florist or Inn Keeper.
    You can actually throw your fishing line out and find other nice goodies, you can really pot those plants and cross-pollinate them and sell them from your own controlled vendor.
    You can literally sell your Beers for a few gold over the counter (A Bar you even fukken' designed) to real people seeking to RP or just chat.
    Hell, you can actually get Drunk - lovely fluff I haven't seen in the (granted) few other MMO's I've tried.

    That's an open-ended world without restriction which I don't believe has been surpassed. What's more is, you can do all 3 of those things?! And at any time.

    And also, the fact there is no identical structure designs because it's all Tile based and not pre-set configurations is a mind boggling bonus. Dungeons and Buildings in other games are so dull when I even notice ONE copy/pasta of environment/structural design. You can never truly know your surroundings when exploring something new because every corner is unique.

    My only qualm in the end, which damages the Sandbox ideal for me, is the divided world. I don't mean duplicated locations and buildings driving me nuts (akin to the above :p), I mean a divided community following there own preferred rulesets. Yes, it's that can of worms that's been talk about for over a decade, but that's killer for me.

    After rambling like I tend to do, my Definition of Sandbox ultimately is being able to enjoy unrestricted choice of action, is about as best as I can put it.
     
    #24 Izzy MBC, Sep 28, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
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  25. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    The reason people "trash talk", in both tram and fel, is because it is a video game and it is fun. To me (and I am sure many others) it is relaxing to be able to log into a video game and finally say what is on your mind with no RL implications. There have been several times where I have been "trash talking" with someone and they came up with a few great remarks about me and all I could do was laugh and remember it so I could use it at a different point in time.

    If anyone takes the "trash talking" so serious it affects them outside of the game then they need to log off and go enjoy other aspects of life so they can realize how insignificant "trash talk" in a video game is.
     
  26. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Trash talking is fun for you? Do you not realize legislation and laws are being made as we speak? Do you know lives are lost over so called trash talking? Seriously?

    I do realize this is a "game". I do realize that trash talk is meaningless. I also know many idiots that think trash talk has zero consequences... I know of many consequences that have occurred due to trash talking. Some are very sad.

    There is a reason we at Stratics do not allow trash talk.
     
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  27. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    What you are talking about is "online bullying".

    There is a HUGE difference between trash talk and online bullying. Just like there is a HUGE difference between grade school kids who get in a fight and grade school kids who think it is cool to bully a kid.

    and to answer your question. Yes trash talking is fun for me, and it is fun when someone does it to me. It is a battle of witts, which a lot of people attempt to do unarmed.

    %98 of what goes on is trash talking. Yes there is the %2 that cross the line and it goes to "online bullying" which isn't cool or fun, but that is the VAST minority.

    ***EDIT*** And now that I am on my soap box the reason they are now making laws against bullying is because of the last 3 generations of parents who tell their kids they are the best at everything and they do nothing wrong. The parents think little Johnny should get a baseball trophy because he went to baseball practice 1 hour a week and lost every game, yet the best time practed 2 hours 3 nights a week so they could win all of their games.
     
    #27 Orgional Farimir, Sep 28, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  28. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    If it literally meant nothing, you all wouldn't do it.

    It's a tactic; part of claiming victory, regardless of the actual outcome of the fight.

    Example: At no point did I suggest I took it seriously out of game; I said it made me decide certain aspects of the game weren't fun, so I stopped doing them as often. It was you who mentioned RL. Why, I wonder, would you bring in RL? My guess is to leave the false impression that I'd said something about it, when I hadn't.

    By contrast, I have to wonder if it's really just about in-game to you all who do such a thing, then why the accusations about how poor your opponents are IRL, what trailer parks they live in, how they are on welfare, etc.

    -Galen's player
     
  29. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    How sure are you?
     
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  30. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    We literally it means nothing to me. After spending 10 hours a day dealing with customers and not being able to say what is on my mind it IS fun to come home and be able to finally speak my mind.

    At NO point did I ever suggest you took it seriously out of game. I was making a general comment, that you took personally. So really you are putting words in my mouth suggesting that I am suggesting you let UO affect your RL.

    and just FYI I have never made comments about where ppl live, or how they are on welfare.
     
  31. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    It seems it means something to you. Speaking your mind seems rather easy... spew garbage. Were did the welfare comment come from?

    Taking yer work anxieties out on us is not fair. You are starting to worry me as a Stratics Member.
     
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  32. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Show me this line.
     
  33. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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  34. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    That part was me. It is something I've heard PvPers tell each other far too often. It's been said to me a lot. (Or close variants.)

    He was saying he didn't engage in that kind of smack talking. All I know is someone's doing it...And yet it's supposedly me that in-game stuff bothers IRL, and not the ones who say such things.

    *shrugs*

    I guess I'll have to be done with my own thread. It's proven, unfortunately, to be an example of what I was talking about in a post that actually was tangential to the main topic.

    -Galen's player
     
  35. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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