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the new faction bases that never were....

Discussion in 'UHall' started by D.A.W.G, Mar 26, 2013.

  1. D.A.W.G

    D.A.W.G Visitor
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    hello, okay so 3 years ago, (or so) there was talk of a redoing factions, they had 4 new faction names, and created a test faction shard, where there were incredible elaborate, faction bases, with elevators, secret entrances, amazing features. It appeared to be something amazing in the works... and it just kinda faded into memory? not even sure if anyone else remembers.
    either way
    Does anyone else remember this? if you heard any notice about them retracting the idea?? because it just seems like something that was swept under the rug. i know it wasnt a solid decision to change everything, but with as much effort as what was put into the bases, i thought they would atleast had been given more consideration.
    i know we have a new com base, and its NOTHING compared to those bases that i know you have
     
  2. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Yes, we were all looking forward to faction changes but those bases were one of the major issues.

    They were everything you said, huge, and elaborate but that in the end was the problem and why faction changes (at least in part) came to a halt... those bases were completely indefensible. They were nice eye candy but impractical for faction use.

    When feedback cameback as negative the Dev's pulled the plug rather then adjusting the ideas to fit the game and incorproate player feedback. I still hope they revist faction changes and use player feedback to help guide them into making a desirable system which has repeated asked the Dev's to focus on benefits and increased function of town control rather then focusing on items and ways for individuals to earn points and rank.

    Factions is about armies from different groups fighting for control of the cities and resources in Felucca. All the faction changes in recent years have detracted from this idea and have focused on giving characters benefits regardless of how the faction itself is doing.... Thus most faction players today have no interest in fighting or defending sigils, controlling towns because there are no reasons, benefits or advantages in doing so.

    I don't think they need further focus groups, but simply need to take all the information they have gathered from the players over the past 5-6 years and incorporate THAT into a faction system to test and further refine those ideas based testing and player feedback. The system would be much easier to intergrate, better recieved and more widely used and enjoyed by the UO players.

    -Lore's Player
     
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  3. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Factions is dead in the water. They fracked factions over big time, and a lot of people left and now they are so scared to do anything with PvP they just ignore it
     
  4. MOSMOS

    MOSMOS Adventurer
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    Dear all,
    Yes.. I am real so disppointed the faction development, especially last change in faction already let to completely died in whole faction system, it almost over 6 months without rectifiation nor improvement.

    I real dunno how the uo mgt level is so away from the customers.

    Waste of a real good game.

    mos
     
  5. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    The way they proposed a bunch of faction changes, and players told them "No this will kill factions", and they blithely went ahead and did it anyway, and sure enough factions died, is just this gigantic enormous black mark hanging over this dev team.
     
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  6. flappy6

    flappy6 Sage
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    i still have some of my faction arties they never got a timer ,anyone else have any ?
     
    #6 flappy6, Mar 26, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  7. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I wish EA could afford a Factions team. So much potential there.

    I would:

    -Add the new bases
    -Create compelling RP fiction and have story driven events featuring leadership figures like Minax
    -Remove town sigils and add an Infernal Battlegrounds system in which each base houses a no attack mob which can be damaged and healed (the base nexus, if you will) only by players within the faction system
    -Extend factions to Trammel in a meaningful way so that everyone wants to or has a reason to be in a faction
    -Create more PvM situations and better automated base defense for the 24/7 nature of Factions or create a fail safe system in which Infernal Battleground situations could not occur unless X number of defenders and attackers
     
  8. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    One of the ideas i liked in darkfall was the ability to set a time when your town could not be attacked. So if you didn't have the ability to defend your base in the middle of the night, you could set a timer to say the base could not be attacked for an 8 hour period each day
     
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  9. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    The new bases were terrible. Elevators, secret passages, two sets of monoliths, etc etc. There was no possible way to defend this let alone the possible exploits it had.

    The suggested points system was even worse. Points for stealthing? WTF?

    In the end it was disasterous and very few if any people supported the idea.

    The feedback was widely negative, including from myself. I had a huge list of bugs they had to fix within a week or so.

    They took a whole new system and went surprise! Look what we did!

    It couldn't have been further from what people in factions were asking for, let alone completely wiping out the previous storylines/lore from factions.
    I could go on but i think we all get the point.
     
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  10. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I never saw the new bases but from what I was told I think they should have used the new bases for something other than Factions. Some new dungeons, areas the Event Moderators can use for one reason or another, etc.

    The Faction changes in general I think failed because they were pitched to the wrong audience, and then they pitched badly to their intended audience.

    They should have pitched to hard-core Factioners, on GL I mean folks like Lore, Tinkz, Gracie, etc. Instead they pitched to hard-core PvPers who were using Factions as a means to get Faction Artifacts and have an excuse to fight. And they pitched to that crowd by giving them things that crowd plausibly could not be seen as wanting.

    In the end, the changes were guaranteed to be liked by nobody.

    -Galen's player
     
    #10 GalenKnighthawke, Mar 26, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  11. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Two threads of information/feedback from the testing of the new system in April 2010 survived and are archived here, if you're interested in reading them: http://stratics.com/community/threads/factions-testing-commencement.194079/ and http://stratics.com/community/threads/factions-test-known-issues.194081/ . I think Mike Moore and Mark Steelman, the two members of the dev team who were working on this, got a lot of valuable feedback from the process. However, I think Cal probably pulled the plug on the whole project after seeing so much overwhelmingly negative feedback. We got the High Seas booster later that year and it almost seems now, in retrospect, that High Seas might have been a rushed replacement for the faction changes, since Mike said in some of his comments in April that what we were seeing then was not the final product and it was still evolving.

    Unless UO's population and subscriptions miraculously and dramatically pick up in the near future and people figure out economical ways to adequately suit up their PvP characters who have been scattered to the four winds in an attempt to find good fights, I don't think we'll ever see another attempt from the dev team to change factions. I am very doubtful we'll even see the reintroduction of Order and Chaos.

    If I was faced with the mess we have today in UO with PvP gear requirements being what they are and the economy being completely borked now because of the shard shields, I would be very tempted to just set up an entirely new shard that's an island unto itself and put whatever new PvP system is developed on that shard and encourage people who want to participate to just start new characters there and build themselves up from scratch. Everyone starts at the same point and there's no way to influence things by bringing in stuff from other shards. A new frontier. Sink or swim.
     
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  12. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    The biggest problem to my automated idea is the fact that people own so many accounts and can so easily run multiple accounts, but I was thinking fights should happen only when good fights were possible, like say a 3v3 minimum. Like maybe an opposing faction could choose to "siege" the base, but they couldn't enter unless they had at least 3 to go in. Then everyone in each faction would be alerted to the siege. Maybe, also, there would be a set maximum. It's a radical idea which goes against the current open nature of UO, so it's an idea that would seriously have to be refined.

    The Darkfall idea is a good compromise. If I recall, UO is set up currently as to not allow sigil stealing right before or after server up/down, right? I think that part is good just so people don't waste their time only to lose conn. The problem with 8 hours is some shards are going to stay more active than others. Like say from 2 am--10 am you can't do sigils, or whatever system, I don't think that would be bad. I mean, I guess that wouldn't be that bad, really. Hm.

    For those who didn't do the last Shard of the Dead I'll have to explain what I mean better. I never liked the idea of Sigils because it promotes escape rather than conflict, and it promotes strategic item-based defense (traps/blocking) rather than player vs. player interaction (although niche roles like reveal tamers have always been nice). The wait timers also suck. Shard of the Dead introduced the MOBA concept of a no move, no attack, target which, when killed, triggers an event. The shard was set up so that each team had to protect their own "nexus" mob, so you could still have some sneaking around while a few people settled for duels, but there was a more tangible reason to defend your base than Sigils (at least, IMO).

    The nexus idea would still face a lot of problems, such as blocking. It's very difficult to change UO into something more modern and accessible because it is so open in how players can manipulate and exploit the environment. Perhaps the floor decay rate could be changed for the base area, but I'm not sure if that's possible.
     
    #12 G.v.P, Mar 26, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  13. D.A.W.G

    D.A.W.G Visitor
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    i definitely get the negative view points, but it had potential to be something amazing with a number of changes, thank u i didnt expect any responses to this thread lol. yes i had complaints too but i definitely wasn't blown away by the high seas, i think i would be interacting with faction bases daily compared to my never touching a ship, sailing to the dock, or capturing a pirate. i hope that they can focus on factions, or another way of rejuvenating pvp and the whole fel experience soon.
     
  14. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Oh, I see you had nothing better to do than pick on one of my old posts. Poor you.
     
  15. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I seem to remember they were planning to put banks in the faction holds... Is that correct?
     
  16. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    Yeah, I actually forgot about that, they did plan on that. What a horrible advantage that would be.
     
  17. gunneroforgin

    gunneroforgin Slightly Crazed
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    There are NO reasons for me as a NON-pvper to join factions.
     
  18. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    What does that have to do with talking about the bases? It's ok, don't pvp if you don't like to pvp.
     
  19. Mithryl Elves

    Mithryl Elves Elves Suck
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    People would join factions if there wasnt stat. Its really a simple fix. Just make anyone in factions attackable anywhere at any time even in trammel. Take stat away so that people arent hiding out afraid to waste 20 minutes of their life. Its really this simple. All of the positives and negatives we need are as follows.

    POSITIVE: You get to use faction artifacts

    NEGATIVE: You are able to be attacked anywhere
    (You do not need stat too. It is counter productive. Take it out and factions are fixed trust me. I actually pvp and have a lot of group insight which leads to me saying this)

    Just simplify it. Thats all it needs. Ive pvped in this game from day one and only recently came back to pvp again and in factions. AND I can tell you this. Right now the largest server (ATL) doesnt even have the biggest fights. The biggest fights are all non faction fights and on GL or Chessy. People just don't want to take stat. The majority of UO players are older now with real life responsibilities. We want to log on, pvp either alone or with friends and when you take stat you're either making your group suffer or are wasting 20 minutes of your life trying to come out.
     
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  20. Varrius

    Varrius Sage
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    I remember this. They wanted to give faction points to stealthers for stealthing around the base, even if nobody was around.
     
  21. Mithryl Elves

    Mithryl Elves Elves Suck
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    Yep thats what happens when u let the trammies that play the game tell the carebears who design the game how to design it.
     
  22. budman23

    budman23 Journeyman

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    I disagree about stat removal. I believe that most of the pvprs currently play faction mostly ONLY to stat one another.
    It is a pretty epic tactic in griefing, and you really cant believe people play for much else at least not most, maybe some.
    Factions has never had a purpose, control is meaningless and is adequatly circumvented with non faction characters.
    And lets not even go on about armour.
     
  23. Mithryl Elves

    Mithryl Elves Elves Suck
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    Sure I get off stating people but regardless of that there are still alot of people that avoid factions because of stat. The idea here is to make them active again. Taking out the number one reason of why people avoid factions is probably a good start. I really doubt MANY people will be pissed and stop playing factions because they cant stat someone anymore.
     
  24. budman23

    budman23 Journeyman

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    You dont need to be in factions to pvp thats a pretty hefty misconception.
    Destroying one of the only things left of factions wont serve anyone. Unless were trying to further trammelize fel.

    You forget the reason people avoid factions is the same reason the rest of them are playing it.
     
    #24 budman23, Mar 29, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  25. Lore Denin (GL)

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    I agree but in reverse....

    All pvp death in Felucca should cause stat loss (not pets or pvm). Moonbound so you can play elswhere and wait out timer. T2A if red or you want a place with the Fel ruleset to spawn/fight without stat (but removes house hiding/fighting from scenerio).

    You want to spawn, raid a spawn, kill people at the gate or hunt reds, etc. There are consequences and you can't res up and go out again and again and again and again....

    If you want to populate Factions... make each town your faction controls reduce your stat timer. Controlling the towns would allow your faction (and its players) greater dominance over the land and would encourage faction battles for town control because it gives the winning factions benefits that would extend to all aspects of felucca play. [The only place the timer would not be reduced would be death occuring in faction base area to prevent giving any side a huge advantage in maintaining control of towns].

    A system that allows people to attack each other everywhere without stat already exists in guild wars, no need to reduce factions into a guild war for people who want "special" artifacts without consequence.

    I know this is not a popular stance among gate fighter pvpers who say this shouldn't apply to their pvp and I'd counter by reminding them stat loss was originally a consequence of being a murdered (red).

    "If thou should return to the land of the living, the innocent shall wreak havoc upon thy soul." = Red Stat loss

    -Lore's Player
     
    #25 Lore Denin (GL), Mar 29, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  26. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    Whoa whoa whoa. Stat loss removal won't entice anyone to play factions because they ran it into the ground. They'd have to fix the points system and a good amount of the other bugs before anyone would want to even consider it again, myself included.

    Adding stat loss to all PVP sure won't help anything either. I don't even want think about the repercussions with that move.

    I want them to fix factions badly but no way do I want them to even go near regular pvp.

    :rant2:
     
  27. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    If I remember right one of the biggest sticking points was that there were not 4 new faction names, there were only 3.
     
  28. Mithryl Elves

    Mithryl Elves Elves Suck
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    Clearly you need to read what I posted again. If they make it so that anyone in factions can be attacked at any time anywhere even in a guardzone what part of that is trammelizing felucca?

    The reason why people dont play in factions is because of stat. Thats all there is to it. I pvp in and out of factions and right now there are an abundance of players actively pvping on GL and Chessy where they are getting 100+ player fights pretty often. Those players are not in factions.

    Meanwhile over here on ATL where I play you have a few guilds in factions that aren't really active. Guess where their members are? On GL and Chessy in other guilds on ALTs playing non factions. Why? Because STAT kills pvp. It kills it for both sides. I put someone in stat and i'm waiting 20 minutes for pvp again because random blubie A, B or C wont attack me until random blubie D or E does (Usually stealth archer who dismounts me or an archer tamer) Then if I'm statted while solo I'm waiting 20 minutes. Or if statted in a group fight I go xhealer. Thats if the entire group isnt in stat and we are now in a house repotting, waiting and watching people go AFK to Real Life Stuff "AFK for 20" Then waiting another 10 minutes trying to get everyone back to go again.

    Like I said. Take stat out and its a continuous fight for hours. Just like on GL and Chessy right now. Add the two positives and negatives I mentioned above and we now have all we need as far as a reward for joining and what luxury you give up for being part of it.


    Here they are again

    POSITIVE: You get to use faction artifacts

    NEGATIVE: You are able to be attacked anywhere
    (You do not need stat too. It is counter productive. Take it out and factions are fixed trust me. I actually pvp and have a lot of group insight which leads to me saying this)
     
  29. Mithryl Elves

    Mithryl Elves Elves Suck
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    Some good ideas here but controlling towns can give other rewards. Stat is the main reason why people do not join factions. It has to go.
    Ive been against taking stat from factions for years and have always supported it. Not anymore. I truly see how it holds people back from pvping.
     
  30. Mithryl Elves

    Mithryl Elves Elves Suck
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    Removing stat loss sure as hell will bring more people to pvp. We already have all the reward that we need. Faction artys make better suits. That should be enough of a reward to attract any pvper to factions. Its the current risk that makes the majority of people who could join factions uninterested. Really sit back and think about it. How many times have you tried to get a friend to join factions and they brought up stat loss? Ive been hearing it for years as the #1 reason why people wont join. Factions has enough rewards. Sure they can add more. They just need to change the risks. I think making anyone in factions attackable anywhere in felucca is really all wee need. Stat is counter productive like I said.
     
  31. Gb8719

    Gb8719 Journeyman

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    If I remember correctly, the only reason stat loss was originally introduced for Factions so that way fights at a Faction base for a sigil did not last for hours and hours. Eventually one side that was dying more often would weaken and just assumingly give up or just be defeated.

    If there aren't major base fights going like there used to be anymore... why bother having stat loss?
     
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  32. Mithryl Elves

    Mithryl Elves Elves Suck
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    DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER...

    I have seen one faction base fight in the last year. It consisted of my guild versus another one that wasnt even in factions. We were at the new COM base and no oranges at all showed up to fight us. We spent the next half hour running around chasing blues through guardzones. Wass tons of fun *rolls eyes*

    MAYBE if the people who can change factions realized why stat was even implemented in the first place they would realize that its no longer an issue because factions are so dead that you're lucky to find a fight let alone one inside a stronghold. Do the developers even post here or see this though or is it all a waste of time? I know I pvp more than the developers do and I know I'm right on this stat thing. It needs to go.
     
  33. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    Don't kid yourself, people can pvp without joining factions or stat loss. The faction gear isn't as good as the things you can make and most people used the orny and crimson anyways.

    Aside from this, no one is going to farm for gear at 50k silver a pop for an orni when it's nearly impossible now to get high enough rank to make it cheap enough to make it worth it. And then, it expires. Let alone just to join.

    I was ok with the item expiring. I was not ok with them removing the rank requirement tied to the better items, jacking up the silver requirements, and then having them expire in a system they screwed the point decay on.

    I'd have to look up if they left the kill points alone or if they moved the system to the healing, assists, bs which would only make it worse.
     
  34. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    Stats provided the end game in a fight scenario in factions.

    If you wish to revitalize the system, there would be no point in removing it.

    You're wrong on the stat thing, but since you've only recently came back I certainly don't expect you to understand why.
     
  35. Mithryl Elves

    Mithryl Elves Elves Suck
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    Them taking rank out to get items was a fair move that allowed everyone the chance to play on a level playing field. I never had a problem getting rank to have my items. But I still see why that was a good move. It creates parity. The silver cost is absurd though. I was under the impression at first that silver from monster kills was going to go up to like 100 coins. It needs to either go up or the costs need to be reevaluated thats for sure.

    But as for the faction gear some is still good and has its uses. The folded steels for the extra DCI are used often. Some people think theres a hard cap at 18 MR but thats not the case so the extra 3 MR on the ornie is always going to be a plus. The 3 FCR on the Crystalline is used on alot of templates and suits. I prefer the Ecru tho myself. And yes stuff like the ring of vile need a severe boost. I know ive never seen anyone use it.
     
  36. Mithryl Elves

    Mithryl Elves Elves Suck
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    I came back a year ago and have always been involved in UO even when away:)

    I would love to hear you explain why the additional risk of stat is needed though.
     
  37. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    To keep the end game scenario.

    You must not have been that involved.
     
    #37 Berethrain, Mar 29, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  38. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    The way this discussion has proceeded largely validates my original post in this thread.

    -Galen's player
     
  39. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    I don't know why you post in any of these threads, you don't pvp or play factions.

    Why do you bother?
     
  40. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    First of all, I believe I am agreeing with you on many of these issues.

    Second, as I've addressed repeatedly elsewhere, I don't PvP or play Factions now. However, I did both rather extensively for a long period of time. I never fit in socially with others who did it, thus making it all-too-easy for people to ignore reality, but reality is still reality....Regardless of the attempts of those such as yourself to erase it.

    I wish I could say I don't know why you bother saying such garbage but I believe I know all too well. One of the problems with Felucca is that, at the end of the day, unfortunately reality there is a malleable thing,

    -Galen's player
     
  41. Mithryl Elves

    Mithryl Elves Elves Suck
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    d
    d
    I WOULD LOVE to see how you can link stat to an end game scenario other than end game as in people just logged for the night and theres no more pvp.

    Stat ruins faction based pvp. Are you just one of those dudes that like arguing lol? Do you want to duel or something now cause ur mad? U must be one of those horribad DC dudes that Ive been destroying pretty bad:)
     
    #41 Mithryl Elves, Mar 29, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  42. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    You were in GF were you not?
     
  43. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    I'm angry because I think you're wrong? How do you relate my difference in opinion to wanting to duel or associate me to DC. (That was below the belt).

    No I'm not in DC, I don't want to duel you.

    Stats didn't ruin faction pvp, the devs did.
     
  44. Mithryl Elves

    Mithryl Elves Elves Suck
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    STAT did ruin faction based pvp. I'll agree with you that there are surely a number of things causing factions to die down but its mostly STAT. The foundation is there. Factions were created pretty close to perfect to start with. Them adding STAT caused the problem because it is too much to expect someone to wait out 20 minutes to pvp again. And it goes both ways. U kill someone and you are waiting for them to get out of stat too.

    STAT is overkill. We have the reward and risk already and it was there when factions were created. STAT gives people a real reason not to join. Like I said, its overkill.

    AND YES that DC comment was below the belt:) I was fighting 7 of them on ATL last week with one guy and MAN i wish i could have been in their vent to hear the crying before the rage logs when all 7 died bad.
     
  45. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    No, though that guild (If you mean G^F as opposed to GoF) was active in Factions, quite active actually being in the main TB alliance, so if I was that would actually work against you, not for you.

    This is really pointless. You have your mind made up about me and reality isn't terribly relevant to you. Such is the way of Felucca and such is why I've departed from that whole scene.

    -Galen's player
     
  46. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    Not sure what you mean, I am friends with a good deal of people in that alliance. I was in the alliance for a bit when it first started. Then I think I went to Minax and eventually CoM.

    It was more out of curiousity than an attempt at an insult.
     
  47. Berethrain

    Berethrain Slightly Crazed
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    This, I think, is where we agree to disagree.

    DC on the otherhand, seem to make great punching bags.
     
  48. budman23

    budman23 Journeyman

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    I think i have been more than understanding at this point and now they have gotten rude, so I believe its time for me to be rude back.

    I rather enjoy these 2 nonexistent pvprs trying to change the system they really dont understand so they can further destroy it, and we can laugh at Mythic
    for listening to two more people who they shouldnt have.
    Artifacts mean nothing in factions anymore, NOTHING, is it that hard to understand? No one is going to waste time getting them, the only place they do is
    the only place that matters for them too SEIGE.
    Factions for everyone? This will never happen, and it shouldnt, this is a clear case of you thinking you belong everywhere when you clearly dont.

    All the pvprs i know in factions are IN FOR THE STAT. ITS THE PRIMARY REASON FOR JOINING.
    It is looked down upon from their shadowed perspective to play pvp without having the risk of going in stat.
    Is this right? perhaps not. But changing things because your afraid to play sure as hell ISNT the right answer.

    This delusion of the trammel community to take over things they dont understand because of lack of honest participation is sickening.

    Please run a poll so we can put this issue to rest and i can further laugh at all of you.

    BTW on a side note anyone that makes an excuse to back out of a fight when they say they are all about the pvp is a honest sign of hypocrisy.
    I will gladly kill all here, and i hope to bump into all of you so i can do just that.
     
  49. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Closest thing to a member of the "trammel community" is actually me. And I am not the one advancing the argument you're taking issue with.

    Your pathetic and ignorant statement reminds me of the time when someone derided some posters for making suggestions for the UO:Cartographer program by saying "stop asking for all of these tram features."

    Nothing specifically Trammel or Felucca about that. But the term was used because for that pathetic and ignorant poster, Trammel meant bad and he'd use the term regardless of if his topic had anything at all to do with Trammel or not.

    Same with you.

    M. Elves is many things but a Trammel player is not one of them. At least not since AoS. As to before then, accounts strongly differ, and frankly I've never given enough of a **** to look into it.

    Real Faction players for the most part do appear to define many things by skill loss. "I killed you while I was in stat," for example, or "well of course you killed me, I was still in stat," or "I was silver farming while I worked off stat." The people who do not understand are Felucca players join Factions to have an excuse to fight and to have quick and easy access to items better than those which everyone else had to work very hard for.

    Trammel's got nothing to do with it. Never has.

    -Galen's player
     
  50. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    If that is true then that's the first non-insult you've ever directed in my direction.

    However, I have no good reason to think it's true.

    -Galen's player