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The new petball changes, bolas, and teleport (WITH VIDEO!!)

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Guest, Mar 21, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    So a number of PvPers have brought up a major issue with one of the new petball changes. The proposed change to add a delay when using a petball is a big problem in the Fel lands.

    Currently, when one is dismounted, there are only two reliable ways to remount, either by summoning in a trusty steed, or having the Ninjitsu ability Animal Form. With this change one will no longer be able to summon in a mount while fighting, any delay over a second would simply be too long. Mounting an ethereal or charger has never been an option because of the similar casting delay.

    In a fair one on one fight this is not much of a concern, but few fights in Fel are one on one. Getting dismounted while fighting multiple opponents, without a way to remount, is a guaranteed death. Guaranteed deaths are something EA has always tried to avoid in the past (i.e. WoD, Honor, etc).

    Now some might say that if you're fighting more then one person you should die, but this is poor logic. It's often the case, that when everyone is mounted, one player IS better then two... this new issue would cause him to die no matter how good he is. It's also very often the case that the single player wasn't even initially fighting the group, they came across and attacked him. This solo player SHOULD have the CHANCE to get away.

    Now some might also say that just because this new situation (caused by the petballs) is horrible and unjust, but you still have to get dismounted first in order to be put in that situation, and a good PvPer should be able to avoid that. Well there are two really cheap ways to guarantee that an opponent will get dismounted. The first is the Heavy Cross Bow, something we all hate but have come to tolerate, even when it's used up-close from stealth. The second is far more damning and is the Bola + Teleport exploit. The use of the teleport spell, after throwing a bola, allows the thrower to get a guaranteed dismount off on whoever they like, no strings attached. It can be done in a macro and, coupled with the above mentioned pet ball change is unavoidably deadly.

    My friend and I made a short video to show how one cannot avoid this bola+teleport exploit by running. Notice that my friend is standing about 10 tiles from me, and is expecting the bola. He's been instructed to run the instant he see the message, and does so. Time and time again we tested this and I was always able to dismount him, no matter how fast he responded. He also was standing at a good distance, and knew it was coming, in the field the bola thrower would have even more of an advantage.

    Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hRHwhNDeNs

    So, in conclusion, dismount is already a large problem in fel, but this new petball change is going to make it even worse. Any group is going to be able to dismount and kill any innocent player they come across without any hope of escape.

    If the new change must go in, then it needs to be changed. Several players have proposed that the delay in summoning be linked to the number of follower slots the summoned pet takes up. One system uses one second intervals, with a 5-slot pet taking 5 seconds, and a 1 slot mount taking 1 second. This seems to be the best suggestion to solve this absurd problem.

    We can only hope that the team understand the impact this change will have on fel and takes the appropriate actions, like was done with the Arch Cure problem.

    *Edit* I should add that I (the bola thrower) am also laggy from the use of the screen recorder and that a normal thrower would, again, have an even better chance to hit the target... hmm... but what is better then 100%?
     
  2. [​IMG] so... for the "good" of the innocents ...

    hehehehe
    sorry ...
    can't keep a straight face
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    heh, or the "not-so-innocent", i'm just playing on people's sympathy there :O
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    So a number of PvPers have brought up a major issue with one of the new petball changes. The proposed change to add a delay when using a petball is a big problem in the Fel lands.

    Currently, when one is dismounted, there are only two reliable ways to remount, either by summoning in a trusty steed, or having the Ninjitsu ability Animal Form. With this change one will no longer be able to summon in a mount while fighting, any delay over a second would simply be too long. Mounting an ethereal or charger has never been an option because of the similar casting delay.

    In a fair one on one fight this is not much of a concern, but few fights in Fel are one on one. Getting dismounted while fighting multiple opponents, without a way to remount, is a guaranteed death. Guaranteed deaths are something EA has always tried to avoid in the past (i.e. WoD, Honor, etc).

    Now some might say that if you're fighting more then one person you should die, but this is poor logic. It's often the case, that when everyone is mounted, one player IS better then two... this new issue would cause him to die no matter how good he is. It's also very often the case that the single player wasn't even initially fighting the group, they came across and attacked him. This solo player SHOULD have the CHANCE to get away.

    Now some might also say that just because this new situation (caused by the petballs) is horrible and unjust, but you still have to get dismounted first in order to be put in that situation, and a good PvPer should be able to avoid that. Well there are two really cheap ways to guarantee that an opponent will get dismounted. The first is the Heavy Cross Bow, something we all hate but have come to tolerate, even when it's used up-close from stealth. The second is far more damning and is the Bola + Teleport exploit. The use of the teleport spell, after throwing a bola, allows the thrower to get a guaranteed dismount off on whoever they like, no strings attached. It can be done in a macro and, coupled with the above mentioned pet ball change is unavoidably deadly.

    My friend and I made a short video to show how one cannot avoid this bola+teleport exploit by running. Notice that my friend is standing about 10 tiles from me, and is expecting the bola. He's been instructed to run the instant he see the message, and does so. Time and time again we tested this and I was always able to dismount him, no matter how fast he responded. He also was standing at a good distance, and knew it was coming, in the field the bola thrower would have even more of an advantage.

    Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hRHwhNDeNs

    So, in conclusion, dismount is already a large problem in fel, but this new petball change is going to make it even worse. Any group is going to be able to dismount and kill any innocent player they come across without any hope of escape.

    If the new change must go in, then it needs to be changed. Several players have proposed that the delay in summoning be linked to the number of follower slots the summoned pet takes up. One system uses one second intervals, with a 5-slot pet taking 5 seconds, and a 1 slot mount taking 1 second. This seems to be the best suggestion to solve this absurd problem.

    We can only hope that the team understand the impact this change will have on fel and takes the appropriate actions, like was done with the Arch Cure problem.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Noted. I won't promise anything, but I will pass this on to the team. I informed QA of the issue in this video.
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Thank you very much Leurocian, you're my new favorite.
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Thank you very much Leurocian, you're my new favorite.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Looks like the delay is a flat 2 seconds for summoning a pet with the Crystal Ball of Pet Summoning. Not sure if you're aware of that, but I thought I'd mention that here.
     
  7. What's the issue? That you can be dismounted?

    You can avoid the bola teleport by teleporting yourself. If you have enough time you can invis/hide/smokebomb

    I dunno doesn't seem like a big deal to me.


    Petballs though, we added these changes because of Ninja Tamers using the NEW SUPER DRAGONS *HINT HINT* Ohhhh maybe it is the super dragon that needs nerfing? =(
     
  8. It seems the fix for this issue has nothing to do with the petball...

    It has to do with preventing people from teleporting (whether with items or the spell) directly after using a bola.

    Am I crazy, or is that too complicated?
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    It seems the fix for this issue has nothing to do with the petball...

    It has to do with preventing people from teleporting (whether with items or the spell) directly after using a bola.

    Am I crazy, or is that too complicated?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    agreed, casting a spell should null the bola target
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    It seems the fix for this issue has nothing to do with the petball...

    It has to do with preventing people from teleporting (whether with items or the spell) directly after using a bola.

    Am I crazy, or is that too complicated?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    agreed, casting a spell should null the bola target

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That's my initial thoughts also. I'll go over this with the team and see what we can do. No promises.
     
  11. what about teleport items? Do we care about those, or is their "rarity" enough to take care of it?

    I know I have plenty of tele items, but I don't know how common they are.
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    2 seconds is still a bit much when in a PvP fight, but not as bad as the earlier reported 3 and 5.



    <blockquote><hr>

    You can avoid the bola teleport by teleporting yourself. If you have enough time you can invis/hide/smokebomb

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Teleporting yourself would require amazing timing, and, I have a feeling, still not avoid it...but regardless it's still not a viable option as many are not mages...which is the same problem with invis and smokebomb, they're limited to certain classes. Invis would also take far to long to cast even in one on one let alone when one is being ganked.

    <blockquote><hr>

    It seems the fix for this issue has nothing to do with the petball...

    [/ QUOTE ]
    While it's certainly true that the bola+teleport issue is what makes this change damning, it's still not going to be fun to get Heavy Xbow dismounted by a stealther archer and have no recourse but dieing...

    I would still would rather see a scaled timer for the petballs, surely it wouldn't be hard to implement and it still accomplishes the same effect on the big creatures... so tamers would sill get the same nerf, but dismounted people would retain some way of living through a gank...
     
  13. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
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    Ive proposed the scaled petballing time many times.
    For each slot it takes 0.5sec or 2 ticks to summon.
    So a horse would take just 0.5sec to summon which is as fast as a mini heal.
    Mare would take 1 second to summon
    ect ect and the longest summoning time is 2.5 second for a super dragon which is only a tad longer than the flawed flat 2 sec for all we have on TC rightnow.

    Anything that takes longer than 1 second to remount is too long in PvP, and dexers cannot cast invisibility (and that's ASSUMING you can get that 6th circle spell off when ur on your feet and your opponent is completely ********.) cannot teleport.

    Dismount lasting effect has built in non-counterable 5second and that's punishing enough. With the petball change dismounting last effect is essentially PERMENANT. The effect only ends when you get your ass ganked/face planted or go into ninja form.

    There are many ways to fix this issue and the easiest way is to have a scaled summoning timer with 1 slotter being nearly instantly.
    or/and:
    Remove ranged dismount special move.
    or/and
    Fix the Bola Teleport exploit.
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Ive proposed the scaled petballing time many times.
    For each slot it takes 0.5sec or 2 ticks to summon.
    So a horse would take just 0.5sec to summon which is as fast as a mini heal.
    Mare would take 1 second to summon
    ect ect and the longest summoning time is 2.5 second for a super dragon which is only a tad longer than the flawed flat 2 sec for all we have on TC rightnow.

    Anything that takes longer than 1 second to remount is too long in PvP, and dexers cannot cast invisibility (and that's ASSUMING you can get that 6th circle spell off when ur on your feet and your opponent is completely ********.) cannot teleport.

    Dismount lasting effect has built in non-counterable 5second and that's punishing enough. With the petball change dismounting last effect is essentially PERMENANT. The effect only ends when you get your ass ganked/face planted or go into ninja form.

    There are many ways to fix this issue and the easiest way is to have a scaled summoning timer with 1 slotter being nearly instantly.
    or/and:
    Remove ranged dismount special move.
    or/and
    Fix the Bola Teleport exploit.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    *signs*
     
  15. BadManiac

    BadManiac Guest

    Take the time scaling even further and make non combat pets, the ones that anyone can own, instant summons, and scale the rest according to control slot requirements as mentioned. Best of both worlds, PvP'ers can summon a pet and have a way of avoiding death by dismount. While the old problem with certain PvP tamer templates would still be taken care of.

    And obviously fix the bola/teleport problem. That's can't be as intended.
     
  16. <blockquote><hr>

    Take the time scaling even further and make non combat pets, the ones that anyone can own, instant summons, and scale the rest according to control slot requirements as mentioned. Best of both worlds, PvP'ers can summon a pet and have a way of avoiding death by dismount. While the old problem with certain PvP tamer templates would still be taken care of.

    And obviously fix the bola/teleport problem. That's can't be as intended.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There's a number of bola abuse issues that follow the same principle, another of which was reported to EA through their bug reporting system a few weeks ago.

    The trouble is that when a player has double-clicked a bola, they are expected to not be able to do certain other things. Things like mounting, and casting spells, and changing into animal form were apparrently intended to be disallowed while someone is charging along with a swinging bola.

    I hope ya'll fix the one I submitted too, its pretty unfair when it's being done to you.
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I don't think we need to overcomplicate things.

    Instant summon for anyone-can-own pets, the others all get the same delay.

    Wenchy
     
  18. Glad to see there's any number of solutions to this....Glad for the part I could play in the making of this fine video.

    [​IMG]

    Gladder still to see a response in pretty short order!!!

    -Galen's player
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Am I crazy, or is that too complicated?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    They never take the logical route. Expect new timers and weight restrictions on bolas in the near future.
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    Take the time scaling even further and make non combat pets, the ones that anyone can own, instant summons, and scale the rest according to control slot requirements as mentioned. Best of both worlds, PvP'ers can summon a pet and have a way of avoiding death by dismount. While the old problem with certain PvP tamer templates would still be taken care of.

    And obviously fix the bola/teleport problem. That's can't be as intended.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There's a number of bola abuse issues that follow the same principle, another of which was reported to EA through their bug reporting system a few weeks ago.

    The trouble is that when a player has double-clicked a bola, they are expected to not be able to do certain other things. Things like mounting, and casting spells, and changing into animal form were apparrently intended to be disallowed while someone is charging along with a swinging bola.

    I hope ya'll fix the one I submitted too, its pretty unfair when it's being done to you.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I wouldn't count on the bug reporting system. I submitted this one the first time I saw it and no action was ever taken. The same thing has happened with numerous other bugs I've reported... I think I've only had the bug report feature possibly accomplish something once, but ofcourse there's no way to be sure it was my report that did it.