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The OFFICIAL FIX the Greater Dragons/ALL PETS in PvP Thread!

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Lord Mike, Feb 25, 2008.

  1. Lord Mike

    Lord Mike Guest

    Please post your thoughts about the new 5 slots here. Be constructive and try not to get banned out of your frustrations!

    On Catskills the zerg guild over there has multiple tamers who try to PvP. They hug the guard zone areas or throw their pets on you from within the safety of a house. Now I think it stinks having a rune beetle and bake kitsune come at you outta nowhere but atleast they dont have mass HP that makes them impossible to kill. A rune beetle has a beetle slayer talisman which means I can kill it in 5-6 concussion blows with one. That is almost enough time to kill it then go after the tamer. Dragons are vulnerable to dragon slaying weps and can be handled if need be. However these new dragons are not vulnerable to slayer damage and have like 900+ hit points. Their only weaknesses are not accessible to many magic spells that carry SDI/Slayer bonuses. I've seen on my shard the same tamer stick their 5 slot on 1 character and while he tanks it 4 mages, 3 archers, 2 dexxies are pounding it and we can't even get a sliver in its life before she is able to just petball it back into her house.

    So bottom line fix that Dragon so its possible to die in PvP. If not doing that then make it so 120/120 you have a 50% chance to control and spamming all kill makes it wild [​IMG].

    The magic these various pets cast is absolutely INSANE. The damage is high, but more of the problem is they appear to have 20/90 fast cast/fcr lol. They spam spells on you on the run and can hit you from nearly 5 screens away. Pixies/Demons do this as well, both should be fixed so they are subject to spell delays and view of target.

    Petballs should be CHANGED! Make a pet similar to a player, if it wars someone it can't be summoned into a house. This is so damn frustrating when people just use a context menu to target you through walls and then summon their pet back if it didn't do a crazy mana dump on you to kill you. Similarly people are now abusing petballs with animal form and running next to you with it. Its also pretty annoying having someone dismounted and they hit their macro for use petball jump on pet lol.

    Also if Player A(blue) attacks Player B(red) with pets, Player A goes gray and pets turn grey. If Player A commands pets to follow them the pets turn blue to Player B again while the owner is still gray. If Player B tries to kill pets he is possible to be guard whacked if in g zone, and is now considered flagged from houses/recall. Fix this please! Most tamers don't fight in the open they hide in the guard zone and this basically makes them untouchable when they have bolas and rune beetles waiting for you.

    I don't think the problems with the uber drags were intended so please go about fixing their slayer vulnerability and I would really appreciate it if the devs would look into these other issues. I know tamers have their own sets of bugs they need looked into as well and I encourage you to fix their issues but I think these should be handles as well.
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Taking the known issues with tamers in PvP to the side for a moment.

    If a tamer is hugging GZ or their house, what are you doing standing within reach of their cowardice? Move out to a position where you can do damage to that tamer without them reaching their comfort zone. If nobody went near their doorstep, no amount of throwing out the dragon would do them any good [​IMG] They either come out to play or nobody plays with them. No need for any fixes there.

    Now to the issue with the tamers. Pet balls. Nerf those into oblivion. If those pets can't be dropped on your head repeatedly, they can be out run, they can be lured off and separated from the tamer and you have a totally different fight on your hands.

    I'm not against further nerfing once the pet balls get it, but if the pet balls stay as they are, pretty much any pet is lethal. Ninja animal forms with a pet balling tamer are an issue, but I think the worst problem is the pet balling.

    That would also hurt your house hiding tamer.

    The issues with slayers not working should be fixed. Dragon slayers should work on these pets.

    Wenchy
     
  3. Kurgan

    Kurgan Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I've seen on my shard the same tamer stick their 5 slot on 1 character and while he tanks it 4 mages, 3 archers, 2 dexxies are pounding it and we can't even get a sliver in its life before she is able to just petball it back into her house.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    9 to 1 hmm cleaver idea pulling the pet back in. And healing it.. [​IMG]Yes this does seem like an abuse of the pet balls. [​IMG] I guess they should be taken out also, or limited to the pets weight.. Funny thing is no one ever complained about dragons before they got a nice bump up. So they take 5 slots. So people have worked around not having a mount to ride. I guess it is breaking the rules to think outside the box, and make a new templet for yourself.

    <blockquote><hr>

    So bottom line fix that Dragon so its possible to die in PvP. If not doing that then make it so 120/120 you have a 50% chance to control and spamming all kill makes it wild.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sound like you got owned by the new dragon.. Guess it might be time to update your templet alittle.
     
  4. I suppose it was a "Yew gate battle". IMHO, you cannot call that PvP. The real test with dthe ragon will be at a champ spawn or in open field.

    Btw, at champ spawns, pet balls cannot be used until the third level is reached. So during the 2 first levels, the tamer is either a sitting duck or a tamer without pet.
     
  5. Samaira

    Samaira Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

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    ^ What Wenchy said.

    Unfortunately the introduction of our new tamer-love has simply brought the old arguments back to the surface. And in true UHall style, the cries for nerfing are significant, but the problem itself can be balanced in very simple, quite small ways.

    Change the slayer vulnerability.

    Change the way petballs work.

    Problem solved, everyone's happy, and those tamers who choose to distance ourselves from the messy world of PvPing with pets retain the smiles on our faces [​IMG]
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think the Dragon is fine. A tamer (even though its lame imo) should be able to pvp. He should also be able to use his pets for pvp. I mean thats his primary weapon as a tamer..

    I think the only thing that needs to be looked at is some sort of timer for teh pet balls. Maybe a cool down period much like the apples that remove curse.

    Im just saying =&gt;
     
  7. rtlfc

    I think...

    Either remove pet balls from game or if that would cause too much upset in pvm to just stop them working in fel.

    Pets should be as if under the effects of feint (1/2 all damage) when attacking players, keeping their pvm use viable even on champ spawn bosses but toning them down significantly against players.

    To Tina:
    Using a bard in fel to combat tamers is a template too cramped to play in most cases. It'd require a character specifically for that purpose, the character wouldn't be a good all round fel char.
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    There is no problem whit taming in pvp to day or any day.
    What the problem is is that we can combine alot of skill that newer should be aloved to use together.


    The easy changes in pvp to fix what folks consider to be a real problem whit tamers
    1 make so you cant comand in traveling form or make it cost 1 folowerslot
    2 make petballs have 20 sec cooldown

    Non of thees changes will effect any one else but stealth ninja tamers
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Agree with those here (and in other posts) that the fix has to be a change to pet balls. They were introduced to reduce the number of GM calls for stuck pets - not for gimp PvP tactics.

    Simple fix would be a 10 minute timer on their use. That would still make them fine for saving a stuck pet and to get a pet into a no recall location.
     
  10. The 5 slot dragons are balanced by being incredibly slow. It's extremely easy to lure one away and/or simply outrun it, even on foot.
     
  11. <blockquote><hr>


    To Tina:
    Using a bard in fel to combat tamers is a template too cramped to play in most cases. It'd require a character specifically for that purpose, the character wouldn't be a good all round fel char.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Thanks for the quick comment back. I have some peace tamers that I use in factions on a couple of shards, but I don't PvP with them much. I use them mostly for hunting to get silver and to tame pets for faction members.

    I understand what you are saying about the character (i.e., a bard) having to be made specifically for that purpose and believe me when I say I'm very familiar with that concept after playing in factions....my two favorite character templates were made with very specific roles in mind and are certainly not good all-around characters for PvP. They are most useful when played as part of a team.

    However, all that aside, when I made my comment I was thinking mostly of two situations that Mike described...the house-hiding tamer and the gate-hugging tamer. I think it might be interesting to see whether a bard (skilled in either peacemaking or discord) could help in those two situations to bring down one of the new dragons and perhaps make the tamer give up in disgust (at least temporarily) after having their precious pet lose some of its skills.

    I'm probably being very naive in thinking this, but maybe the introduction of these dragons opens the door a little wider for discord and peacemaking bards (maybe with taming or archery or hiding/stealthing as their additional skills) to operate as "supporting role" characters in Fel. Maybe this would have some appeal for folks who previously haven't gone to Fel much if they can be assured they will be treated as a valuable part of a team and will be taught some Fel survival tips. I know that if I wasn't so busy currently with training up characters for factions on yet another shard, I'd be experimenting with this just to see what would happen. Would probably die a lot, but at least it would be interesting to see if this is an effective way to counter the new dragons instead of giving in to the temptation to yell for them to be nerfed right out of the starting gate.
     
  12. Hail Wenchkin,
    In following the chatter about "The New Dragon" ...it strikes me that you have the most broad ... "Big Picture" veiw of the situation ...
    just saying ... easier for me to offer "sideline" ideas for that sort of veiw ... anyway ...

    changing on the petball only ... should affect the entire system of the petball, not just one critter ...
    probably there in someones post ... just haven't seen it flatly stated like that.
    In that vein, considering that the ball itself is portable ...
    Probably shouldn't be usable "on the run" (as noted from the abuses)
    I've seen timers and "warning lights" as efforts for "slowing" the use ...

    Howabout, since they're Running ..chance to drop it?
    Its In the backpack ... chance to break it?(stray chance blow from crossbow bolt, sword, mace ..on a leather bag ..)
    Howabout, while using it to summon ... possible to (disarm) Knock it out of their hands, their pack?
    For that matter... using it while on the run with both hands full ... really does sound absurd ...
    need to equip it? to maintain "the channel" (magical, invisible, leash) ...(rode/walked him in vs called from afar)
    stand in place and focus alllll their attention ... to get (any) pet to land at the proper location ...

    On the New Dragon ... Five slots right? Kinda like its taking ALL of my attention JUST to own it ...
    Hummm ... sounds fair to me ... that when it is out of the stables ... I should be near by and "hands on"
    At least line of sight(and visible as a reminder to "Him") certainly close enough for him to Hear me ...
    over the din of battle ... I get too far away ... well ... out of sight ... out of control ...
    With a petball, I can call him from the corners of the world ... from the stables or a staging station ...
    that should be ... only once ... every so often ... The FIRST time I call him ...should be that he is rested and well fed ...
    The More I call him tither and yon ... during the days work ... should at least be a chance ... that I am starting to ... [​IMG]
    wear thin his opinion of me ...
    Just saying ... at the taming ... certain promises and assurances WERE made by the tamer ... yes?
    To WIN his loyalty ... the tamer promises ... what? just saying ... and not Just this new one ...All pets should have "some memory"
    of why they follow a tamer ... they certainly have time, in the stables, to pause and reflect ...

    As some one mentioned somewhere ... I just can't imagine this new uber creature ... EVER taking commands from a dog or a rat ...
    I mean .. jeez ...weren't those forms ... formerly considered DINNER? or at least a light snack? surely a pest to scratch off and squash?
    ... In Command Now ... ordering about ... [​IMG]
    Smart enough to use magic ...but can't see their comical reflections ?

    More so for the "combat class" (PvP) but also for the farmers ...Time for these beasts ... all of them ... to wise up ...
    Remember the promises and assurances made ... to bring them into alliance ... How HAS the tamer acted? by their side ... encouraging and healing ...
    or ... [​IMG] hiding off somewhere safe ... tugging at their leash ...
    Speaking of which ... those promises and assurances ... WHAT actually happened ... right after they "agreed"?
    training feeding healing and handeling?
    Or one meal and shut in the stables for a week ... poof! now your bonded forever even after death ...
    one ... hardly seems "fair and friendly and loving" ... errrr ... worthy of loyalty .. [​IMG]
    Leastwise to ME


    Just some sideline observations ...
    hope for the best

    Fayled
     
  13. God another damn whining post about the dragons. First off they SUCK. If the people you had didnt do more then a sliver then they suck. Oh wait let me guess u dont want to have to carry dragon slayer weapons or spellbooks. I fought these stupid dismounting tamers w/ there dragons the other day there extremely simple. Id rather have the stupid dragon then the beetle bake combo.

    I just put a dragon slayer in my bag. I arm it and i do almost 100 dmg after consecrate weapon and 200+ crits. Which even with 900 life is more then a sliver.

    Now for the other part LEAVE THE HOUSE FIGHTING. Thats the problem here. Not a dragon.

    The only intelligent thing you suggested was pet balls, keep tring to get ea to hear you on those though. They were discussed along time ago in the pvp focus group with plenty of fixes and yet are still pathetically used.
     
  14. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    I think someone has hacked into Fayled's account. I can tell because nearly complete sentences are being used and there are fewer smiley faces. [​IMG]

    Definetly an imposter. Hrmph.

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I like the chance of dropping it idea [​IMG] I wonder though if it would affect average tamer Joe as he runs into a dungeon to call his pet. Or just carries it around with him. Chances of another player grabbing said ball if he dropped it at WBB kinda thing [​IMG]

    Losing loyalty if summoned repeatedly would be useful, maybe even have a chance to fail on the summon. Pet might just decide it's sick of coming when you whistle and not turn up at all [​IMG] That might allow the timer to be shortened as there's less certainty that the pet would come. I just don't know if that would be a strong enough correction?

    It'd be hillarious if a dragon summoned by a llama thought "ooh food!" and ate said owner. You could perhaps summon it, but the dragon's going to be torn between following the PvPer or eating the fluffy llama. I'm sure that would give some PvPers a lot of entertainment lol.

    I still fancy the requirement of 80.1 vet before any fighting pet would bond with an owner. Seems a bit silly that the pet bonds when the owner clearly can't keep their side of the bargain [​IMG]

    Wenchy
     
  16. AlanofCats

    AlanofCats Guest

    Hmm I was thinking about a short period after the pet ball summon that the pet woul be weakend. For 10 seconds after a summon the pet's current health and stats would be reduced 25%. Summon it again while it's weakened and all stats are reduced 25% again and a new 10 second counter is started. Keep summoning on the run and eventually the pet is an easy one-shot.
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Pet-balls are to make the game easier.

    Walk to bottom of dungeon, pet-ball your pet.

    I time factor should in no way be a hinderence to anyone but a mechanics abuser.

    SIMPLE:
    1 pet-ball, with a 3 minute delay between use.


    Why would your pet recognize you in animal form?
    Animal form = no control of pets
    I cant see animal form taking a slot cause its you.
    Aside from as an animal you should be able to do pretty much nothing but run.
     
  18. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

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    <blockquote><hr>

    There is no problem whit taming in pvp to day or any day.
    What the problem is is that we can combine alot of skill that newer should be aloved to use together.


    The easy changes in pvp to fix what folks consider to be a real problem whit tamers
    1 make so you cant comand in traveling form or make it cost 1 folowerslot
    2 make petballs have 20 sec cooldown

    Non of thees changes will effect any one else but stealth ninja tamers

    [/ QUOTE ]

    /vote
    /sign
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Pets should be as if under the effects of feint (1/2 all damage) when attacking players, keeping their pvm use viable even on champ spawn bosses but toning them down significantly against players.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree with this. Even with pets only doing 1/2 damage they will still do 20-30 damage a hit. Tamers would still be effective at PvP. They would just have to attack other players themselves too; opposed to letting the pet do all of the work.

    <blockquote><hr>

    Simple fix would be a 10 minute timer on their use. That would still make them fine for saving a stuck pet and to get a pet into a no recall location.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This would make fighting a tamer possible. As it is now you can't lure the pet away from the tamer. And unless you are a dexxer you probably wont kill the tamer with the pet attacking you.
     
  20. fred252

    fred252 Guest

    The OFFICIAL FIX the Greater Dragons



    But, the greater dragons are not broken. No need for a fix.

    Why can't people just adapt?
     
  21. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    Pets should be as if under the effects of feint (1/2 all damage) when attacking players, keeping their pvm use viable even on champ spawn bosses but toning them down significantly against players.



    I agree with this. Even with pets only doing 1/2 damage they will still do 20-30 damage a hit. Tamers would still be effective at PvP. They would just have to attack other players themselves too; opposed to letting the pet do all of the work.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Erm, if a pet ball nerf was implemented (as it should be), said pets wouldn't be stuck to you with a pet ball. Thus easily outrun. Thus not much threat. To halve their damage in addition to that would be a joke. You don't seriously need all that nerfing to kill a tamer and their pets do you? Maybe we should make the greater dragon walk backwards so he can't look at you in a threatening way [​IMG]

    Wenchy
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    The OFFICIAL FIX the Greater Dragons



    But, the greater dragons are not broken. No need for a fix.

    Why can't people just adapt?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Tell me how to adapt to being two hit killed in a 70s suit. Really, I would love to know how.
     
  23. <blockquote><hr>

    You don't seriously need all that nerfing to kill a tamer and their pets do you?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well the new dragons are 5 slots, which means the tamer will be on foot, which mean the two most likely templates are mage/ninja or archer/ninja. Which means your going to get dismounted, which means your unlikely - while having a dragon melee/bleed/breath &amp; cast on you - that you'll be able to kill anything with a caster, you might with a dexxer but even then you've still got a dragon attacking you while your on foot.

    So in answer to your question no, that much nerfing would be just to stay alive, if I wanted to actually kill the tamer as well it'd require nerfs for bolas.
     
  24. Lord Mike

    Lord Mike Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    God another damn whining post about the dragons. First off they SUCK. If the people you had didnt do more then a sliver then they suck. Oh wait let me guess u dont want to have to carry dragon slayer weapons or spellbooks. I fought these stupid dismounting tamers w/ there dragons the other day there extremely simple. Id rather have the stupid dragon then the beetle bake combo.

    I just put a dragon slayer in my bag. I arm it and i do almost 100 dmg after consecrate weapon and 200+ crits. Which even with 900 life is more then a sliver.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You obviously haven't fought these new drags. They are currently not effected by Slayers when tamed. My samurai that can solo dreadhorn does like 60 dmg with EoO and crits with Dragon Slayer arty. The Dragon can bleed, does fire breath that with 70 fire does around 50 dmg, claw attack with 70s does 25+ dmg, chances are while its attacking you have the tamer casting a flame strike or some attack on you, you do the math...

    To whomever said the dragons make it easy to kill the tamer. Well when the person with the dragon is any sort of intelligent pvper you are going to die well before he is with something biting you lol. Its alot easier to heal through someone doing mage spells/melee damage than a dragon pumping out its now crazy damage.

    Don't get me wrong, I have a tamer and I respect the use of tamers in PvP. I just think this dragon thing brings up a lot of old complaints that never got addresses. I like pet balls and I think they are good but there needs to be some consequence/limit to them, its like the people who used to spam evasion, basically unkillable. Perhaps if they fix the slayer issue and I stand a chance of fighting back against a tamer it might not bother me as much, who knows.
     
  25. Lord Mike

    Lord Mike Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    You don't seriously need all that nerfing to kill a tamer and their pets do you?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well the new dragons are 5 slots, which means the tamer will be on foot, which mean the two most likely templates are mage/ninja or archer/ninja. Which means your going to get dismounted, which means your unlikely - while having a dragon melee/bleed/breath &amp; cast on you - that you'll be able to kill anything with a caster, you might with a dexxer but even then you've still got a dragon attacking you while your on foot.

    So in answer to your question no, that much nerfing would be just to stay alive, if I wanted to actually kill the tamer as well it'd require nerfs for bolas.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    AGREED! I don't see how saying the tamer must be on foot/form justifies a 5 slot pet. All it takes is 1 bola, which he MUST be on foot to use anyways, and the fight is HEAVILY favored for the pets lol. Its not even like you can suprise attack the tamer. With a pet guarding them you basically war them and get whooped. Not to mention back to my complaints about their fast cast abilities, there is no way you can outrun their 35 spells they cast in .2 seconds from 10 screens away lol(not just an issue with pets but all summons).
     
  26. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The dragon under it's own steam does not move that fast. It's easy to out run even if you've been pet balled.

    Pet balls being out of the equation if we account for their nerfing in this scenario.

    If further to that (as I've agreed in other threads) the tamer cannot zip around by using a ninja animal form while controlling that dragon.

    If you and said tamer are moving the same speed because of the bola, you're still able to run past the dragon and hit the tamer.

    That's assuming you're solo v that tamer. If there's more than 1 of you, that should be a very very easy kill. I know what it feels like to play the tamer without pet balls and ninjitsu, so I would suggest you test this scenario before arguing that pets need a huge nerf to their damage output.

    From where I'm reading, you want a sitting duck. I want to be able to defend myself by employing my magery alongside my pets skills, if I get attacked in Fel. I don't want pets who are more trouble than they're worth, when I'd be better off playing just about any PvP template instead.

    Wenchy
     
  27. Guest

    Guest Guest

    We had a very good discussion about pet balls not long ago, and a poll with suggestions. I don't know whether the devs saw it, I don't know whether you saw it, but if you'd like to see it now it's here:

    pet ball proposal
     
  28. Belmarduk

    Belmarduk Guest

    Dont mess with pvm Tamers !
    Make a fix in pvp but DONT mess with pvm trying to fix pvp !!!

    In the current state of the game killing a proffesion (thiefs.....) to fix a pvp issue would be a VERY bad idea...
     
  29. <blockquote><hr>

    The dragon under it's own steam does not move that fast. It's easy to out run even if you've been pet balled.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I know it doesn't, I didn't say it did.

    You can't outrun a tamer who is in animal form when you are on foot, unless your saying that your character is somehow as fast as a mounted player when on foot?
     
  30. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    AGREED! I don't see how saying the tamer must be on foot/form justifies a 5 slot pet. All it takes is 1 bola, which he MUST be on foot to use anyways, and the fight is HEAVILY favored for the pets lol. Its not even like you can suprise attack the tamer. With a pet guarding them you basically war them and get whooped. Not to mention back to my complaints about their fast cast abilities, there is no way you can outrun their 35 spells they cast in .2 seconds from 10 screens away lol(not just an issue with pets but all summons).

    [/ QUOTE ]

    If the dragons were that tough, nobody would be able to tame one on foot without ninjitsu lol. Especially if the did pop 35 spells in .2 secs 10 screens away. I sure haven't met that dragon in the wild, so I'm a wee bit doubtful of your claims. I think you need to stick to facts and conduct some testing before crying for a nerf.

    Wenchy
     
  31. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I'm saying that player is nerfed so they can't control pets whilst in animal form period. You wouldn't have a ninja form tamer zipping around their pets under my scenario. Whether animal form needs a control slot when used alongside pets, or some other nerf. It's stupid having a 5 slot pet if the tamer can get the benefit of mount speed by using some ninja skill.

    Wenchy
     
  32. Wenchkin, when a tamer has dismounted someone, that person is at non mounted speed. When the tamer goes in to animal form he is at mounted speed. Making the tamer faster than the dismounted player. Making it easy for the tamer to constantly be right next to the dismounted player. If the tamer then repeatedly uses a pet summoning ball the pet is also constantly right next to the dismounted player. This means it is not easy to outrun it means it is impossible to outrun.
     
  33. <blockquote><hr>

    It's stupid having a 5 slot pet if the tamer can get the benefit of mount speed by using some ninja skill.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Not really, because the dragon is still slower than a player on foot.

    The issue for most people isn't that the tamer can move at mounted speed with his pet, because it doesn't make the dragon get there any quicker. The issue is when the animal form tamer uses a pet ball to make the pet move faster than it normally could and more importantly faster than another player can.
     
  34. Guest

    Guest Guest

    That's why there needs to be a more comprehensive fix so that said on foot tamer is moving the same speed as their bola'd victim.

    Wenchy
     
  35. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>


    Pets should be as if under the effects of feint (1/2 all damage) when attacking players, keeping their pvm use viable even on champ spawn bosses but toning them down significantly against players.



    I agree with this. Even with pets only doing 1/2 damage they will still do 20-30 damage a hit. Tamers would still be effective at PvP. They would just have to attack other players themselves too; opposed to letting the pet do all of the work.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Erm, if a pet ball nerf was implemented (as it should be), said pets wouldn't be stuck to you with a pet ball. Thus easily outrun. Thus not much threat. To halve their damage in addition to that would be a joke. You don't seriously need all that nerfing to kill a tamer and their pets do you? Maybe we should make the greater dragon walk backwards so he can't look at you in a threatening way [​IMG]

    Wenchy

    [/ QUOTE ]

    With just the pet balls nerfed the tamer is still very hard to kill. I would have a higher survival rate against them but I still wouldn't kill them often. The tamer would just play defensively instead of offensively.
     
  36. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Read my last post above, I realise the pet balls aren't just the only problem [​IMG]

    Wenchy
     
  37. A tamer right next to the dismounted player without a pet ball doesn't matter the tamer can't use specials or cast spells in animal form. The dragon doesn't move any faster so the player has fair chance to get away.

    It is only in the use of a pet ball that it changes, the player can't get away from the dragon which not being affected by the rules of animal form can melee/breath/special/cast all it likes.

    If pet balls didn't exist, or didn't work in fel then then the player would have a fair chance at getting away.
     
  38. Fluffi

    Fluffi Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    RTL.


    The most noticeable thing about the recent slew of anti-dragon posts is the lack of input from those who actually tested them from the receiving-end while they were still on TC.


    Nico and Al Thorin offered to test their dragons against anyone, but I believe that the only victims were Winder and a load of unwilling Yew gate campers.


    If YOU didn't bother to provide EA with any input during the testing period, don't YOU think it's a bit hypocritical for YOU to start complaining now.



    As far as the actual nerfing of dragons... there have been several sensible suggestions that will avoid this:

    1) A delay, combined with a visible animation, on petball use - won't affect PvM tamers, and wil have little effect on real PvP tamers.
    2) A timer between petball use - won't have a deleterious effect on any real tamer.
    3) Petballs require stillness to use - won't affect PvM tamers at all, and won't affect most PvP tamers.
    4) Ninja forms take a control slot - won't affect any ninja other than the tamer gimps.

    Sadly, given all the unedified screeching we've seen on UHall in the last few days, we're more likely to see a nerfing of the abilities of the dragons, rather than a well-thought-out addressing of the "problems" with PvP tamers in general. [​IMG]
     
  39. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    You can't outrun a tamer who is in animal form when you are on foot

    [/ QUOTE ]

    No, but you can, however, knock them out of animal form with a bola of your own!
     
  40. To Fluffi:

    You have no way of knowing who tested what and to what extent. Not everyone posts on Uhall, some test for their own knowledge, there are also other ways of submitting feedback that aren't as public.

    Test Center isn't an accurate testing ground as most people didn't/wouldn't bother training a pet on TC, at least not to the extent they would on a production shard.

    <blockquote><hr>

    4) Ninja forms take a control slot - won't affect any ninja other than the tamer gimps.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes it will, I plan on using ninjitsu on my pvm tamer.
     
  41. <blockquote><hr>

    No, but you can, however, knock them out of animal form with a bola of your own!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Using a bola disarms you, not the safest soloution when you've got a dragon on you.
     
  42. Lord Mike

    Lord Mike Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    The dragon under it's own steam does not move that fast. It's easy to out run even if you've been pet balled.

    Pet balls being out of the equation if we account for their nerfing in this scenario.

    If further to that (as I've agreed in other threads) the tamer cannot zip around by using a ninja animal form while controlling that dragon.

    If you and said tamer are moving the same speed because of the bola, you're still able to run past the dragon and hit the tamer.

    That's assuming you're solo v that tamer. If there's more than 1 of you, that should be a very very easy kill. I know what it feels like to play the tamer without pet balls and ninjitsu, so I would suggest you test this scenario before arguing that pets need a huge nerf to their damage output.

    From where I'm reading, you want a sitting duck. I want to be able to defend myself by employing my magery alongside my pets skills, if I get attacked in Fel. I don't want pets who are more trouble than they're worth, when I'd be better off playing just about any PvP template instead.

    Wenchy

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Am I the only one who plays on a shard where tamed pets can somehow come after you EXTREMELY FAST. I want to say people use the command to follow, then to kill the person they stick the pets after. Rune beetles basically run same speed as me all the time, these new dragons typically do the same thing where they teleport next to you repeatedly lol or just sometimes incredibly fast. Also like I said their Dragon Breath that does somewhere along the lines of 45+ to all 70s is insane haha.

    I don't expect a tamer to be a sitting duck but it should be along the same lines of a stealth ninja/archer. They are great for field fights but will absolutely get romped vs a full fledged warrior with parry/bush/chiv related skills. When you have 200-360 skills devoted to just handling those pets you should not be that hard to kill without the pets (a bit harder thanks to the moron who invented -0 mage weps), however when its essentially impossible to kill their sidekick, it should be in theory impossible to kill the tamer. The VIP! Guild of Atlantic shows this with their PvP tamer templates. They are almost impossible to kill with their pets alive, the second their pets are down, they drop like flies. Now with the unkillable pets, I'm sure they are immortals :p. (not to mention they can bola a screen full of people in under 2 seconds lol).
     
  43. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    Tamer PvP is a joke that's in dire need of a fix. That's all that needs to be said.
     
  44. <blockquote><hr>

    We had a very good discussion about pet balls not long ago, and a poll with suggestions. I don't know whether the devs saw it, I don't know whether you saw it, but if you'd like to see it now it's here:

    pet ball proposal

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Thanks Petra Fyde, the vote tally in the poll, pretty much clenches the Pet balls getting a "Tweak" is fairly unoanomouse YES.
    Whether all four, or a combination of any 1,2,3 ... Might be determined by whether 1 all or combo's...
    apply to pets balls in all situations
    or
    would best be applied when ...

    Used by ONE type of template ...

    Case of the Ninja Animal form
    (fromhere)

    <pre>
    Animal Skill Special Abilities
    Rabbit 0 Grants a 20 point bonus to the stealth skill.
    Rat 0 Grants a 20 point bonus to the stealth skill.
    Cat 40 Increases regeneration rate. The increase is based on your Ninjitsu skill.
    Dog 40 Increases regeneration rate. The increase is based on your Ninjitsu skill.
    Giant Serpent 50 Inflicts low level poison whenever you strike your opponent with a non-ranged weapon.
    Bullfrog 50 Inflicts poison when your enemy damages you at short range.
    Ostard 70 Increases movement speed.
    Llama 70 Increases movement speed.
    Wolf 85 Increases movement speed and grants a bonus to both your hit chance and maximum hit points.
    Bake-Kitsune 85 Increases movement speed and grants a bonus to both your hit chance and maximum hit points.
    Unicorn 100 Increases movement speed and grants immunity to low level poisons.
    Ki-Rin 100 Increases movement speed and regenerates stamina quickly.</pre>

    Bear in mind ... at this point ...I'm thinking ...any changes suggested HERE ... MAY end up applying to ALL case's of pet ball use and ALL summonable pets ...
    so be careful what you wish for ... on the basis of Just One template ... a lot of Implementation, naturally, is gonna depend on the complications run into in CODEING the request ...
    So ...
    Likely: simple broader = better
    Likely: cannot disallow Ninja templates any use of petballs ... although ... special circumstances about the appearence ... of attempting to FLEE during the heat of battle MAY be able to be applied
    ... [​IMG] (probably should ... given the other complaint about rez/log/retrieve pet) ...
    *shrugs*
    ... thread of its own or deal with it here ... same sentiment as regards "Flagging": thread of its own or deal with it here.

    IF a flat simple no-no of petballs in animal form DOESN'T happen ...maybe a two ended "cooldown" timer could ... two ended in that ...Say
    a rabbit or rat ... stealths into an area ... and before either could USE the pet ball ...gotta catch their breath, remain hidden and change form, gather their concentration and attention BEFORE summoning a pet ... thats one end ... approach
    The other end would be, also how long before begining to run away, and or how far away in how many seconds ... able to once again... summon the pet (kinda instantaneous, now, yes? entering-summoning-leaving-summoning)

    Just Saying ... ONE cool down may not be enough.

    For those concerned about "being heard" ...well ... you DON'T have to rely on just the forums ... or PMs and e-mails to specific Devs ...

    EVERYONE can use the [​IMG] ...
    Jeremy has said ...if it goes in there ... its read and sorted into a tracking spread sheet ...[​IMG] heard and vote "counted" ...
     
  45. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I still think there are options before nuking pet damage. I'm quite open to these dragons being toned down if only to remove their teleport spell [​IMG] But only once the other avenues are tried and tested first.

    I don't want is a very badly constructed nerf based on exaggerated claims from players who could (for arguments sake) be using a 40 resist suit or simply suck at fighting tamers. We all know the stupid claims that get made on UHall. EA devs don't always have time to test out these theories, which is where stupid fixes come from.

    I would like to see a staged tone down of tamer strengths when using the gimp tactics. So that there is time to evaluate exactly how much trouble tamers are at each stage. Gimps like it easy. They will go with whatever gets the results most easily. They may be less adaptable than we expect [​IMG]

    One example of a nerf I'd suggest before killing pet damage is to make pet bonding (for fighting pets) require the real vet skill to res that pet. The gimp tamers who don't use vet would be limited to disposable pets. You can't use a pet ball with those, or recall with them either. They're also much harder to train. If they die the tamer has to go get more. Another inconvenience. Again, that wouldn't hurt the PvM tamers so much, but it would nerf templates without vet.

    Wenchy
     
  46. There should be a damage cap for pets vs players. Armor corruption should not be in pvp at all. It is an unfair advantage.

    Tamers are the only ones that can effectively attack in pvp without expending mana. Pet commands should take mana aka will power over beast.

    Hit lower defence should be removed. It should be looked into as far as coding. At times it seems it stacks and even with actual 45+ dci, 120 Wep skill players seem to autohit all the time with the combonation of HCI,HLD,HLA. That is just too much for a ranged weapon.
     
  47. Hey,

    what if pet ball cost 1 charge per control slot? 5 charges to summon big dragon around. Make them weigh more if necessary.

    I have ninja/mage. Drop two EVs, spam mirror image. If 1 EV goes down and I get targeted, usually switch to cat/dog and spam mirror image. Don't usually change to mounted speed animal, but I don't want to not be able to change because I have 5 followers.

    Also, you may need a different template to fight the new tamers. Everyone says necro + this/that and the other thing is overpowered, except when fighting super dragon? Is it then . . . balanced?

    Anyway, 1 charge per control slot.

    OZ
     
  48. Fluffi

    Fluffi Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    <blockquote><hr>

    To Fluffi:

    You have no way of knowing who tested what and to what extent. Not everyone posts on Uhall, some test for their own knowledge, there are also other ways of submitting feedback that aren't as public.

    Test Center isn't an accurate testing ground as most people didn't/wouldn't bother training a pet on TC, at least not to the extent they would on a production shard.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    OK, thats a reasonable statement.

    In the spirit of "I'll show you mine if you show me yours...."
    I managed to tame an ancient wyrm, but didn't manage to get it trained-up enough to partake in any meaningful PvP studies. What testing did YOU do? What were your findings? Where did you report them?



    <blockquote><hr>

    4) Ninja forms take a control slot - won't affect any ninja other than the tamer gimps.

    Yes it will, I plan on using ninjitsu on my pvm tamer.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    How exactly would that particular nerf affect you?

    If you are moving at mounted speed due to a ninja form, your pets won't keep-up with you (whether in a PvP or PvM scenario), unless you spam a petball. I notice you had no objections to the proposed petball restrictions; so exactly how would "forms take a control slot" destroy a PvM tamer who cannot abuse petballs?
     
  49. Guest

    Guest Guest

    1 charge per slot would make a difference. However, I've farmed and sold powder, and it's fairly easy to come by. Expensive(ish) to purchase, but I'd call it a useful fix.

    I would like any ninja fixes to avoid harming the legit users of ninjitsu. Personally I'm not finished training my ninja, but I care about the skill. I don't want anyone penalised unnecessarily. So I'd go for something like if you have pets, then you can't issue a kill or guard command while in form. Ensuring that summons would still work basically.

    I do think there is a certain amount that players will learn in fighting these dragons. I hope the slayer weps and books are fixed to work vs the greater dragon, as that would obviously help a lot. There could also be a timer between a dragon casting teleports too, if they are regularly chaining teleport to pursue enemies. Funny as that is to watch, it's not funny on the receiving end [​IMG]

    Wenchy
     
  50. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Move away from the guard zone, kill the tamer.

    I know my pet never does anything when i'm dead since i can't control it. Logic would seem to suggest that if you kill the voice commanding the pet, then the pet is nothing more then a big target.

    I don't see what the problem is with tamer's in pvp. I usually area peace or discord the pet and have a friend kill the tamer....called team work....should try it sometime