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The Old UO?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Gameboy, Jan 30, 2013.

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  1. Gameboy

    Gameboy Sage
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    First and foremost I am not a pvp type person. I saw this about Wizardry Online and was wondering if the Old UO was like this. I am hoping this will be more of a yes or no type question.
    Server-Wide PVP
    It's kill or be killed in the world of Wizardry Online. Team up early to discourage opportunistic players – or form your own roving gang of murderers and thieves!
    Sophisticated Crime System
    When you kill or steal from other players, you become a criminal. Watch out for the guards, or you may end up in prison!
    Bounty Hunters
    Only the best players can survive with a price on their heads. Will you live in infamy, hiding in the slums? Or will you bring people like that to justice?
     
    #1 Gameboy, Jan 30, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2013
  2. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Similar systems were in place back in the day for UO. Though I don't know how Wizardry has implemented them. I might have to check it out...
     
  3. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    Not really. But it was filled with the same 13 year old griefers that I imagine Wizardry Online will be chock full of.
     
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  4. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    I have it installing... I'll let you know.
     
  5. Gameboy

    Gameboy Sage
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    Good luck :)
     
  6. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Sort of... but they didn't handle control of the bad element very well.
     
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  7. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Ah the old rose-colored lenses. These posts lessened in frequency for awhile but I see they have returned. Surely the next PvP-centric game will kill UO just as Shadowbane and Darkfall killed UO.

    -Galen's player
     
  8. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Shadowbane was 100% better as I'm sure I've stated before the pvp was insane and the game mechanics were well thought out and implemented the reason it failed is due to bad developers..terrible communication and unfortunately for then the player base wasn't as strong as UOs and left because it was so bad..imagine playing a game for a year with Ultimas communication,bugs etc no one would of stuck around..everyday I play UO am thankful we had RG in the beginning he cared and listened ad if it weren't for him half of us wouldn't be discussing the things we DO... my 2 cents
     
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  9. Maximus of Lck

    Maximus of Lck Adventurer
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    Original UO was NOT server-wide pvp. It was never intended to be that way nor was it ever that way. What it was, however, was an open world where you could do anything. If that included attacking other players, then I guess that was your play style. I played for years before trammel came out, and I can't remember ever getting pk'd. The vast majority of the population base was there just to play the game and have fun. It seems to me that most people who never played before trammel think that it was a vast slaughterhouse full of warring characters who never did anything fun but look over their shoulder. You have to remember back then armor ratings made sense, there was no insurance, few blessed items, and items were just not valued like they are today. When going hunting I'd go out and buy a brand new set of armor called a Archer or Dex suit. (Chain tunic and legs, ring gloves, plate arms, plate gorget, and close helm) This ran about 1200 gold back then. Purchase another 2 GM made krysses and that puts you out another 500 gold each. If you died and lost all your belongings, you were out roughly 2000 gold. But you know what, the pk's had the same armor and weapon choices, so pvp back then was WAY, WAY more about skill than what kind of suit you were wearing. It is not the case anymore with outlandish multi-billion gold suits.

    In regards to the crime system, you could become flagged gray from being caught while stealing, attacking other players, healing criminals, healing reds, poisoning blues with poisoned food or trapped boxes, etc. While gray you could be attacked by anyone.

    In regards to the bounty hunters, yes, there were many players who "tried" to claim bounties. If you successfully killed a murderer or even a blue character, you used to be able to chop up their body and take their head to a guard. The guard would then give the player the bounty on that character, if any. The bounties were posted locally on bulletin boards in each town.
     
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  10. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    You've suggested that before, yes, that Shadowbane failed not because of its PvP-orientation but because of its own failings.

    May I suggest, however, that perhaps the strongest reason it failed, even were I to base my view solely on your post, was, to use your words, "the player base wasn't as strong as UO's." Basically this would mean people just didn't like it as much and left when they would have stuck with a product they liked more overall.

    Such would have been the case, I submit, perhaps because of its PvP orientation. The PvP nice market is simply too small to sustain a product.

    -Galen's player
     
  11. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    What people fail to realize is the fact that the old ways of UO is what formed UO today. When I played other MMO's I could get pretty far with out either of the M's. UO pre-tram you could not. If you were able to pick up the steep learning curve and find out how to "play the game" by your self , you sure were not able to gain skills by yourself. The reason for this is because of all the "mean old nasty PK's". So players, new and old, were forced to group together to learn the ins and the outs of UO and to go into the hunting spots to gain skill, gold, weapons, or what ever the need was. Because of the players being forced to stick together from the start it created a rock solid community, that we would not have if Tram was around from day 1 of UO.
     
  12. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I have explained repeatedly that the myth of a pre-Trammel utopia created by people banding together is just that, a myth. There was no competition. When there was, people left, UO changed, and thus survived.

    I fully recognize that not everyone will admit this, and that doing so would contradict the deep needs of many posters on Stratics.

    Many posters on Stratics -- but very few actual players. An important distinction.

    -Galen's player
     
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  13. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    Wow I am confused..... Pre tram I played on Sonoma, and the guild I was in was a member of the Sonoma Alliance. An alliance of guilds that had well over 20 guilds involved. The main purpose of the Sonoma Alliance was to ban together and help fight the reds.

    You are saying this is all a myth?

    From the orgional Articles of Alliance for Sonoma Alliance.

    " Article 1. The purpose of this Alliance is to foster cooperation among member guilds so that Alliance members may protect the citizens of this shard of Sonoma from evil, in whatever form that may take."
     
    #13 Orgional Farimir, Jan 31, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  14. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I'm saying that if most players' experiences in any way resembled the experiences you now claim to have had, then there would have been no Trammel and no Everquest. If there had been a Trammel it would have been shut down by now due to lack of players, there would have been no need to attempt to lure people to Fel because most people would have stayed.

    Richard Garriott would never have had to reconsider the rules of the virtual world he created.
    Link: http://uo.com/article/Memorable-Moments-Richard-Garriot
    Quote: "After that, I began to think more carefully about the rules we ourselves put in the game, and the inevitable play styles that would come of it."
    If no problem, no need to rethink the rules, playstyles would be self enforcing and self correcting. They were not.

    Starr Long would never have referred to Trammel as "needed."
    Link: http://uo.ultimacodex.com/2012/09/ultima-online-15th-anniversary-celebration-liveblog/
    Quote: "What sense did he make of the felucca/trammel split? Players liked the emotional reaction initially, fear of death… but only briefly. So it was needed."
    Is no problem, no "needed," things would be self enforcing and self correcting. They were not.

    Most people went to Tram and never looked back.

    This has all been gone over before and is widely known.

    -Galen's player
     
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  15. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
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    It WAS, indeed, Server Wide PvP, with only towns and guard zones being somewhat "safe". Unless of course someone, say, poisons their own packy with empty bags on it, and lets it die at the bank.

    Then, a new player could open the corpse, not knowing initially, very likely, that they would "Flag" grey, and could be killed where they stood...

    It was, indeed, Server Wide PvP. Server Wide Non-consensual PvP, at that.

    Yup...anything...I was there...have played since Aug of '97...PKing and Thieving were rampant.

    Being that Trammel came out in about May 2000, and UO came out in late '97, "Years" might be a stretch. If you "Never" got PKed...good for you. That was NOT the case for a crap-ton of OTHER players, however...a Crap-Ton.

    I played before Trammel. I remember it very, very well. My memory is not jaded by the PKs, but they certainly are a large part of my gaming experience prior to Trammel. The wife and I both quit about 6 months prior to Trammel coming out, but luckily kept our account. We had quit playing specifically because of leg-humping thieves, and the PKs. We were certainly NOT alone in our feelings about these game experiences, either...not by a long shot. Even Anthony Castoro, that Producer that did such a very poor job of implementing Trammel ( "It will NOT be a mirror of Felucca" or whatever he said that was patently NOT true...but a different discussion, for sure) said that a small group of highly skilled players were griefing the living bejeezis out of the general population (which does back up your point that "Most People Were There to Have Fun")...it is just that the small groups of highly skilled players made life miserable for the rest of us (I am not, nor have I ever been good at PvP much...don't care for it personally...particularly Non-Consensual PvP, as it was prior to Trammel...and please spare me the "When you logged in, you were consenting to being attacked!!"...not even close.)

    Do you remember how much a "Supremely Accurate Kryss of <Insert Highest Destruction Mode Here>" cost back then? How about a whole set of "Invulnerable <Insert the Rest of the Best Armor Qualities Here> Plate Armor?

    I don't remember exactly how much these types of items cost, but it was sure a hell of a lot more than 2200 GP. And as I recall, I would get attacked in Shame by 3-5 Reds sometimes, all kitted out and rolling together in their kick ass suits, which WERE a lot better than a Dex or Archer suit...by a very, very long shot, for sure. They HAD the same choices as I did, they were just able to KEEP their stuff when they ganked a single blue in a Dex suit...because their crap was a lot better, and there were more of them. Plus I sucked at PvP, and was there to fight monsters. In addition, it always sucked real bad to be fighting a dragon, and be half dead, and then have the three reds roll up...some fun that must have been for them! It happened a lot, too. Not a little bit...it happened a lot.

    Yup, as stated above, the Blue Noto PKs were very good at getting innocents to flag so they would take no count, but it happened as often as the Notos were able to pull it off. Very lame...Hella Lame.

    The Bounty system was a major scam. Run your Bounty WAY up...then have a guildy or someone you know take you out, and collect the money contributed by the people that were killed by the Bounty Character. Brilliant. Lame, indeed...but a great way to make some serious gold.

    So...to rebut your recollections of "The way it was" for you isn't possible, as you could be dead on in that you never, ever, ever got PKed...or at least "Can't remember".

    However, you can be 100% certain that if what you say is true, you were in an extremely small group of players that did not have that experience...many did...at least enough did to force such a huge change on the game due to the exodus of players around Y2K to Everquest...a game that didn't allow the "Server Wide PvP'" that was UO at the time.

    After all...if UO was so swimmingly successful, and DIDN'T have the plague of Server Wide PvP...why in the world would anyone in their right minds change a thing for such a perfect game? Right?
     
  16. Gameboy

    Gameboy Sage
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    I gave it a little bit of a go and it's not my frosted mug of root beer. Though my issues are not pvp related. I do not like
     
  17. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    I rarely left town on any server but Siege Perilous in the half year or so I played before Renaissance because every time I'd step outside the gates there'd be a dozen people ready to attack anyone leaving and talking about what n00bz they were for dying (...to a dozen people all further advanced than them, of course)

    Whereas on Siege I played a crafter who was [evil] (If anyone even remembers the old system outside of Siege players) so any time I'd leave town I'd go from blue to red automatically... and nobody cared.

    I can't remember the last time I was on Siege and attacked by another player. I can't remember the last time I did something in Fel on Chesapeake and wasn't.
     
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  18. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    1) New PVP MMO is announced, claims to bring back old-school UO gameplay.

    2) Usual suspects get excited, proclaim it their lord and savior.

    3) Game comes out, world ignores it.

    4) Usual suspects shuffle their feet and try to blame it on everything but the design.

    5) Repeat every three years for eternity.
     
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  19. Nexus

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    I'll agree with this, typically though I don't go running for the "Latest and Greatest" but I am willing to try new releases (especially F2P) and use the experience to broaden my views of game design.
     
  20. Hattori Hanzo

    Hattori Hanzo Lore Keeper
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    Move to Siege Perilous.
     
  21. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I think it would be foolish to assume that what made the game great back then could somehow be recreated by simply making a classic shard or whatever... but those were by far the best times of UO, no rose colored glasses. But that's just because it was a different time.
     
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  22. Gameboy

    Gameboy Sage
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    I'd really like to thank everyone for giving me a small glimpse into UO's past. When I first started it was with Blackthorn’s revenge, then AoS. All I really wanted to know is if UO had the similarities of Wizardry Online, and I got my answer. Thank you :)
     
  23. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I certainly don't remember some utopia, but on the other hand it was not some law less hellscape either. There was a really bad period in the first year, but people got more organized, and smarter about where to hunt and what risks they were facing, and how to be prepared to flee, and it was no where near as bad. Then when statloss came in the issues were much less serious. It was in no way an ideal situation (or reds or blues) but it was not that bad, and many non drastic steps could have been made to make it better, instead they just took the easy route and trashed the community with a world split.

    Honestly though I never got pked. I was a full on pvm/gatherer/crafter and couldn't pvp my way out of a paper sack, but I was smart enough to know that going to certain places at certain times was just foolish. Same with all of my comrades. If we wanted to go someplace dangerous we went in a group, and made sure to bring along at least one person who knew how to pvp and had the skills to do so effectively. That interdependence and the thrill of evading pks or helping our pvping friends beat them off was amazing. It was a real community.

    Technically what was needed were improvements. Tram was never a good idea. There were MANY other better alternatives floating around back then to keep pks in check but to keep the world open, but alas they would have taken a lot of work and consideration.

    Well that means very little really. If they opened up a new land now where monsters were easier to kill and dropped better stuff people would drain out of tram and go there. People in general will follow the path of least resistance every time. If I just want to collect gold why would I go to the place where that is harder to do if I have an easier alternative? Not knocking anyone, it's just natural.

    It's up to the designers to make sure the least resistant path is still rewarding. Its up for debate of course if tram was a good idea in that light, but I certainly would say it was not. Though not everyone wants the same things out of life or their hobbies.
     
  24. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    There was no reward, at least to me, to not go to Trammel. Or Siege.

    You can't play in Fel on a regular server after about 3PM on the east coast.
     
  25. Orgional Farimir

    Orgional Farimir Lore Keeper
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    That is all a myth, Just ask Galen. What you rember isn't the truth. You are looking thru rose colored glasses in a room filled with pot smoke.
     
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  26. Gameboy

    Gameboy Sage
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    *Locks Thread*
    ( I tried)
     
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  27. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    Hey guys, remember the old days when Trammel opened? Rememeber when everyone tried it and discovered to their horror that griefers could say mean things and be jerks in total safety? Remember how everyone fled back to Felucca, where PVP would ensure a civil and fair society for all, leaving Tram a ghost town? Remember that alternate universe where all the PK apologist fantasies were true?

    No? Me either.
     
    #27 KLOMP, Jan 31, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
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  28. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    I do rather miss the pre-insurance days when my thief wasn't just relevant, but hilarious.
     
  29. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Because there's absolutely no other reason tram is appealing... I really don't see how saying that pks didn't rule the world like people want to say they did makes someone an "apologist", which really makes no sense in this context.
     
  30. Ashlynn_L

    Ashlynn_L Lore Master
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    Open PvP worlds are a niche thing. It's clear many people (mostly non-PvPers) will choose not to play in them given the choice. Trammel exists now. Furthermore (and most importantly), Trammel GAMES exist now. The old PK world of sheep and wolves is long gone. Only PvPers (with a minority exception) will play games with open PvP rules. The rest will just migrate to games that aren't open PvP and unlike 15 years ago, there are a lot more options out there for them to move to.

    Reviving a dead model isn't gonna make it work. You'll never get that world back where you can wantonly kill and steal from people who have no desire to play that kind of game. If they made Trammel open PvP tomorrow, most people would simply move on to another game or something else entirely.
     
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  31. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    Maybe they didn't when/where you played. Others have different experiences.
     
  32. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I think this thread has reached the usual conclusion.
    Which I think concludes it.
     
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