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[Discussion] The paranoia is getting to me

Discussion in 'UO Rares Collector' started by feath, Jul 20, 2008.

  1. feath

    feath Guest

    The duping problem has been an ongoing theme in this forum for a very long time. Tomas-Bryce post on the current dupe influx started, what i feel to be, and unprecedented amount of paranoia.

    i see anyone buying or selling rares on the rares forum, I instantly think 'duper'. Buying? wants to dupe them. Selling? they're duped. The one place a legitimate player can post, is corrupt. i have totally stopped posting when I want to buy something. I'm a pretty average gal. if i feel this way, I'm sure there are others that feel this way and aren't saying anything, either. Don't want to get feathered with the duper's tar brush.

    But i'm not one of the old time cliquers. i dont have a long standing name. i don't know, except a very few people, any of the old timers, and those only superficially. Every single person I've dealt with ingame has not given me any credit on these boards, so i am even more unbacked.

    If i'm viewing 95% of the posters on this forum as dupers, likely so are 95% of the posters viewing me.

    i am a rares collector that can not trust a seller. I am a rares buyer that a seller can not trust.

    The mob mentality that is developing from this paranoia is scaring me. In our zeal to 'get' the bad guys, we are seriously harming the rares community. We are torn apart.

    And in my inflexible refusal in joining into a mob mentality, i am sure to be labeled 'one of them'. As Bush would say 'you're with us or against us'. As if there were no other option.

    There is for me.

    i would hate to leave these boards, and the tentative reputation I was building. But if i can't trust the community, and the community can't trust me, there is simply no reason to be here.
     
  2. simonovsk

    simonovsk Lore Master
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    It would be a big loss for quite a few of us if you were to leave those boards, Feath, I am nothing like an old timer or a true colector but I can say that.

    When times get rough, there are always tensions, some people over reacting, and paranoia setting in. It's a good thing ! The adrenaline input is good for the blood vessels, and in the end only negatively affects those guilty of something. You are not, so why worry?

    Besides, sticking to the action always helps build a notoriety, and considering the very nice collection you've already put together, yours is probably starting to get established.

    I for one can back you up, even if my support probably isn't very meaningful to most people on those boards ;)
     
  3. Alcestis

    Alcestis Seasoned Veteran
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    Umm... I think you're just being dramatic tbh.
    The overall paranoia bothers you? Well sorry to say but you're the one BEING paranoid here.

    I would not consider you a duper, be it for a reason you prolly wont like.

    I don't think 95% of the people here are dupers.
    Hell, even the dupers/fences we have proof against aren't considered a duper by at least 30% of the community!

    This is not tearing the community apart. We're just getting rid of the bad apples.
     
  4. feath

    feath Guest

    Since i wouldn't like it, we'll assume its derogatory. Thanks for sparing my feelings over it.

    i can only go by what i have personally seen. i am speaking as a relative new comer to the forums. And the only posts i have seen lately are brand new accounts, selling or looking for high end items - and manicore. so, lets flip it around. how many people would you say for 100% absolute sure are NOT dupers. 5% perhaps? Shall we be generous, and say 15%? take a look at the first page posters. how many are new people to these forums? Perfect time for a duper to slip in. EVERYONE has a new account, and unless you've been here for years, you may not know all the names.

    i'm not saying these people ARE dupers, btw. I'm saying, instead of viewing them innocent at the very start, i am now not. i ask myself - is this duped material? Are they just looking for items TO dupe? That is the very purpose of all these posts, is it not, to make people think about who they are buying from?

    I do not know these people - they don't know me. We have post after post of duping warnings - and hacks. So, being the warm, generous, trusting fool that i am, I'm going to rush off and buy it all. right?

    Yes, alc, the forums are full of paranoia. The lurkers will not post about it. Even i hesitated for weeks, because well--- you get branded paranoid. post after post on this forum ADVISING you to be paranoid because there's a huge dupe going on, lots of hacks. gee, i wonder why i could possibly be feeling this way?

    So, i share my concern with the community - take it as you will. Ignoring it is fine.

    Thanks for reading this post that got longer than i'd intended.
     
  5. DevilsOwn

    DevilsOwn Stratics Legend
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    Feath has a valid point. Last year I thought nothing of buying anything that struck my fancy (and most things do!) and lately I've bought very little... I tell myself that it's because I've got enough items to satisfy for now, and that's partly true, and that I really can't afford to spend anymore than I already do, and that's partly true also, but what also happens is that I feel that thought slipping thru the back of my mind... and I hate that it's there and that I have to even consider it

    pretty much destroys the gleeful shopping mood and I go whack an ettin or something.....
     
  6. Drafgard

    Drafgard Guest

    I agree that there is a valid point to be had there. People, much like myself, who have new accounts are selling high end items.

    Take me for example, i've posted about an item bless deed, and a set of obsidian statues. But does this mean because i haven't tried to sell anything on here in the past, that i duped the items? Granted my "Bless deed" post was a little strange, but i openly discussed the irregularities of the item on the thread.

    I totally understand where you'r coming from, but i feel its unfortunate that i seem to have been tarred with the Dupers brush, because my account isnt old. I also feel that this is going to discourage people from opening accounts to sell/trade/price their items, for fear of being branded a duper. (Edit: I'm not saying you accused me of anything directly, just as an overall view)

    This is my view anyway, please dont flame me *too* hard :)
     
  7. feath

    feath Guest


    no no, that's precisely the point. innocent people are getting tarred. i don't know you, so i can't help thinking FIRST 'duper?'... every new person on the board is going to be cast in shadow first.
    it's just not good for the community.

    manticore's auction is the first money i've spent in weeks. i trust him and his reputation. There might be someone new on boards that i could help - and i'd love to. But i trusted other community players who have recently turned out to be non trustable.

    And to be a valuble member of this community, if you're found to be dealing (wittingly or unwittingly) in dupes, you're branded.

    your post is exactly what I'm saying. it is NOT new member friendly in here. and i hate it. Devil said it; last year, i wanted it, i bought it. now i feel i can't.
     
  8. Alcestis

    Alcestis Seasoned Veteran
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    One thing doesn't have to do anything with the other?

    Yesterday, I was thinking of buying Zolo's White Deco contest tree for example.
    I chose not to in the end.
    Is this cause i think Zolo's a duper? Not at all.
    It's cause i went to see some other vendor and saw it on there.

    Whole other thing.
     
  9. simonovsk

    simonovsk Lore Master
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    Anything that forces anyone to think, compare, investigate, is a good thing imo.

    Going around with a credit card to make purchases, for the sake of purchasing, isn't collecting, it's consumption.

    No one should pretend to collect rares, either irl or ig, and expect to buy unknowingly without getting scammed often.
     
  10. DevilsOwn

    DevilsOwn Stratics Legend
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    well then just color me Consumer, cause that's all I want to do... buy shinies and decorate
     
  11. Manticore

    Manticore Babbling Loonie
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    ok,

    It's time for me to leave a comment. The new collectors and the old needs to realize that we are finally entering into a new era of collecting. Although duping has always existed but in the past it was something people tend not to talk about except as thoughts in the back of their minds thinking it was a possibility. Since the last 15 trillion gp ban, knowledge of their existence has been brought out into the open for all public. So the way I see it, the collectors must come to the realization that all items can now be divided into 2 categories: 1. Unique (one of a kind) items deemed by the community as rare and stay in that category as long as its being tracked and protected by the few; 2. everything else that exists more than 1 could have or already have been duped. If you can come to terms with that, then you'll have no problem continue to collect. If not, then quit.

    Now you may say that the value of the non-uniques may drop over time but that time we're talking about takes years. And some of that will be adjusted by the natural inflation of the game's economy. But even so, there seem to be a bottom value where it won't go down any further for 99.9% of the items. For example, gargoyle city weapons, everyone knows they are dupped, and yet they are still bidding at 75-100 mil. Or two story statues, they are still selling strong at 100 mil.

    Look at the rubbles, take the fire rubble for example, there were hundreds that spawned and yet they are still selling at 100 mil each if not more. People collect for many reasons, those who needs the peice for decoration will pay it if they can't find it anywhere else. EA is trying their best to catch these people but it takes time and lots of effort. But that shouldn't keep you from collecting. At the end, its a game. And you should enjoy playing this game, if not then its not a game to you anymore. When that happens, its time to move on.
     
  12. Muu Bin

    Muu Bin Guest

    Well said!
     
  13. Nails Warstein

    Nails Warstein Rares Festival Silent Auctioneer
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    At the top of the duper pyramid you have the dupers who barely play UO, and dupe gold on many MMORPGs. UO isn't very profitable, so they amount for probably less than 1 hundreth of a percent or about .01%. They then sell to brokers in bulk who make up again only .01%. These brokers own websites that that sell the dupes to anyone, but most importantly they will sell to the fence who make up maybe another .01% of the players in all of UO.

    The fence sells to a few established rare collectors who probably know that the fence is selling them duped goods, but they only care about profit. These then rare collectors mentioned in blogs begin to sell these dupes as their own unique items to the big league rare collectors aka me and others like me. We are the major suckers, and we keep the system alive. We in turn rarely sell our rares, but if one of us does we know who those sellers tend to be. Right now they are probably quitting since they paid a lot for the rares they didn't know were duped, and now they can't sell them for anything. I think you all know who I mean. They usually have at least one rare or event item for sale about every other week.

    Here is the rough draft diagram of the duper economy

    Dupers aka computer programmer
    --V-------------V--------
    Brokers aka website masters
    --V-------------V--------
    Fence aka unknown owner of rares we think aren't duped
    --V-------------------------V--------
    Fake Collectors aka those mentioned in blogs
    --V-------------------------V--------
    Big Time Collectors aka players like me who were "DUPED" into buying
    --V-------------------------V--------
    Small Time Collectors aka players like you
    --V-------------------------V--------
    The public who invests in one cool rare or got it on their own.

    I will attempt to make this more clear of how I see things in the future. In the meantime who will EA ban? They will ban some of the broker accounts if we are lucky. Brokers have become wise to EA bannings, and they have taken necessary precautions to avoid being banned. Thus EA will likely ban most of the fencers we hope. The fake collector will probably be spared, but if not, they will also be banned, and that means legit collectors might be suspect for holding the items they bought off them, and hence might get banned themselves. Which those players with long memories might remember did almost happened to someone very prominent in this community on stratics, and here is a clue it wasn't me.

    Yes it is wise to be cautious, it is even more wise to openly discuss your suspicions with many different collectors. If you get a feel of everyone's opinion, you likely learn who the fake collectors are. They tend to point the finger at everyone except themselves as dupers. While now, many of the fencers have come out of the woodwork, and duped rares are cheap.

    I say buy up while its cheap before all the cool items get banned, but thats just me. I want to have nice decorated homes. Otherwise hold on to your money and hope EA will nerf the item so everyone can have it or no one can have it. Best of luck to you and all you endeavor.

    Nails Warstein
     
  14. Leto

    Leto Journeyman
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    Let me get this straight: So you are saying we should all just enjoy the items that are available and conveniently forget about the fact these items were generated by exploits and a small group of people, those with few enough morals, are making thousands of dollars of this practice?
    It's that kind of attitude that got the rares-community into the pittyfull state it is now.
     
  15. Chaosy

    Chaosy Guest

    I don't chime in much on these boards simply because I avoid this game like the plague now after 80% of my rares have gone down the crapper, but I have to throw my support in feath here. There are times when I log in game or forums and see someone selling/buying items, and everytime before I ICQ them about an item I'm interested in buying and selling, I stop and ask "what's the point?" and log off. I have suits for my characters unfinished because I feel guilty buying a lot of armor since 90% probably come from duped hammers/kits. The only thing I want now is to finish my one mage suit I've been trying to complete for the past 2 years and be done with it.

    I don't know about everyone else, but I'm going to have to say Manticore is right. I'm willing to bet that most of the people buying duped items at high prices are people who are naive to the fact they're duped. For the people on these forums who actually care, they probably all just walk up, think a two-story statue at 100m is a nice buy for the price, and then end up walking about because they've taken some moral initiative. Unfortunately not everyone will be like that, so to be "rares collecting" is no longer a valid hobby (at least for the time being). I see quite a few collectors fitting into the "move on" group, and it's sad to see a lot of people who have been part of the community for so long leave. As far as how disgruntled I am over this whole thing:

    I paid 1.4 billion gold for my Lieutenant Sash (+100 mil for Tomas' help :D)
    Gold was worth 1.8/mil then => $2500

    Tomas then performed his investigation on the item, but I thought it was fine since I was planning on keeping it and it didn't seem like there were too many around, not to mention I saved up so long to have enough gold to purchase one and had been looking for ages at that point. I assumed the dupers were banned and the duping problem fixed. Boy was I WRONG. I've seen people trying to dump these things for $500 or so now. That's a net loss of $2000 for me on ONE ITEM. I could have bought something nice like a guitar or motorcycle I've been wanting, but instead it's wasted on pixels. I'm not making this out to be a cry and whine post, but I'm sure many others here can tell you the same things.
     
  16. Alcestis

    Alcestis Seasoned Veteran
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    Dear Nails,

    If you say things like "oh go ahead and buy all the rares cheap now you can" and enlighten us with great statements like "oh but i bought IBDs in bulk only last week" you are NOT part of this group:

    Big Time Collectors aka players like me who were "DUPED" into buying

    as you state it.

    You are part of the group

    Big Time Idiots who keep this system going, profit from it and help the dupers and thus deserve to be banned with the rest of them.
    You are just as guilty and a disgusting example of a so called big collector.
    You are no better than the person you helped framing.
     
  17. DevilsOwn

    DevilsOwn Stratics Legend
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    I'm sure that most of the avid collectors here *shoots a glance at Manti*can tell you in a heartbeat exactly when they purchased an item, how much they paid, and who they bought it from.. I'm not one of those people. Prior to the past few months if I had the coin in my pocket (either virtually or paypal, I buy much for real dollars) and saw something I wanted I went after it... after purchase the items are most likely used as part of my deco themes and I never again think about what was paid for them

    point is, I don't keep track... if an item is devalued thru duping that's a sad thing for all of us, but it affects someone more if they are looking to resell, and as some of you already know, selling is something I don't normally do... bought the thing cause I wanted it, not because I was looking to make a profit.. I am in no way condemning those that do, it's a way to make a living here in Sosaria, and without those people I would have nothing to buy, just pointing out that, for me, there is no loss, cause I still have the little treasure
     
  18. Manticore

    Manticore Babbling Loonie
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    Good post Chaosy. I think from now on, everytime you buy something you have to ask yourself is this a true unique? If you are 99.9% sure then sky is the limit -- bid away. If there is a slight doubt that the item could be duped or more than 1 exsit or you can't account the whereabouts on all of them, then you should set a limit. That limit should be something you can live with if you lose it all one day. That amount is different for everyone of course. Since we have different age group with different financial capabilities, it could be 10 mil for one person or 1 bil for someone else.

    In response to Leto's comment, it's never ok for this but we are in a situation where things are not being done fast enough. So all we can do is talk about it and continue to play.
     
  19. Lady Aalia

    Lady Aalia Atlantic's Finest
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    i really dont understand it when people say the dupe doesnt influence the game play.

    For me it does, i cant go window shop anymore , because i have to be afraid that the 30 mill i want to spend on an item may end up deleted since all items got whiped after a cleanup like the sandals did.

    I dont dupe or script or buy my gold i earn it buy hunting , so losing 30 mill is a big deal for me.
    what has been coming from Some "Collector" latly and all the other stuff floating around makes me loose all respect for him. Seems like he has no problem exposing dupers but only after they pay mass amount of $$ for his collection ....

    I stopped spending money on stuff for now, i am working on other things right now, its just sad to see the pretty things on the vendors for still rediculessly high amounts of money even thou its clear the vendor is ran by someone very involved on the dark side....
     
  20. feath

    feath Guest

    i'm really glad to see this thread hasn't turned into a flame war. There was a turning point where it could have.

    I've been saying that privately for a while now. i'm glad you said it - me, i would have been drop kicked off a high cliff. i don't have the clout to say there are no more rares. there are only uniques. Someone said it a few days ago and got flamed to a crisp.

    the post was an excellent thought out and detailed account on the money trail. (i almost typed the money train, it would work as well.) i mentioned earlier getting tarred with the dupers brush. Anyone in this community that wittingly or unwittingly buys/sells a duped item, will get slapped with it. i see alc and leto were hot on that comment.

    it also seems a huge loss of collective memory with a pack horse dying at a bank and the rush to get there before the guy realized exactly what he was selling at 1m each. no finger pointing, just saying when its a really good deal, and its an item you've wanted, a person will do it.

    i'm like devilown, i don't buy rares for resell. i've not sold a single item that I've bought. They are for me, to deco, show off, admire and just feel warm and fuzzy for it. This was a major part of the game to me.

    And that part is just getting battered.

    But it does make me feel better that there are people willing to come forward in this thread, and agree with me. The sense of community is gone. We're not mayberry any more - we're New york, and we have to think about where we're getting our items.

    i'm thinking at this point, we need to stop trying to inflict our own ethic's and values on each other. i am a flawed human being, and i make mistakes. I don't want to be snubbed because i unwittingly bought a duped item.

    With the tone of the community right now, i would be. This makes me sad, paranoid, and unwilling to buy anything.

    I buy 'rares' for myself, not resell. I will make my own decisions on what is safe, and what is not. The paranoia on these board will lessen, i hope, in time. But for now ... for now, it's not very pretty in this community.

    however! The people who stepped forward to express their views, i sincerely thank - i am not alone in some of my views, and it does lessen my sadness over the whole thing.
     
  21. Kaj

    Kaj Lore Keeper
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    Calm the heck down and show some respect for your fellow rares collectors. Because you are in the council and suddenly get to talk 'we're doing this, we're doing that' as though you are the community, doesn't mean you can flame people like Feath and Nails.

    Let me quote a poet that I like:
    Nails and Feath are just as much part of the community as you are and unlike you stated, many share Feath's sentiments.

    Nails has done A LOT for the rares community, more than most of us can probably do in the time to come, and deserves respect and to be heard. Nails is one of the people that lost more than ANYONE due to dupers. He owned many of the items that were changeling duped and that's just regardless of the normal dupes.

    I do understand his point. There are different people in the rares community. Same as dog breeders. There are people that just want a nice dog and don't care much about it's purity. There's the people that do want a pedigree, but don't need 100% purity and you have the extremists. Nails IS saying you need to be cautious. You need to have an open dialogue about cheating and duping. No one that is a true part of the community wants to support cheaters.

    I won't flame you on a personal level, since I think anyone that talks like you are about fellow collectors earns a spot your 'Big Time Idiots' list.
     
  22. Lady Aalia

    Lady Aalia Atlantic's Finest
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    no

    because that is the view the rares cauncil is suppose to work against.

    It is not ok to dupe and it is not ok to sell dupes, period.

    this is not about hey we know its duped and ah well its still a rare cause it was only duped 5000 times...
    It doesnt work that way. Dupers will dupe them as much as possible but only release them in very limited quanteties to keep everyone thinking they are rare.
    In truth they have another 300 in the bank. So the 30 mill you just spent on the blue robe is in turn sold for RL $$ and since they have so much of the gold they will sell lowest, since they have to move the **** asap incase they get banned. so now gold is down to 10 cent a mill and you cant touch a 120 magery scroll (just an exsample) for under 80 mill because gold aint worth ****.

    so still dont care?
    Well i do!

    and all those ah well dont care and hmmm duping isnt so bad after all guys, sorry have no respect for you and sure the hell wont consider them elite UO players eather....
     
  23. Chaosy

    Chaosy Guest

    It's hard to argue with something so blatantly obvious, though not everyone will be willing to admit it. Say I were to want to sell my sash (I won't even get into my own inner debate about selling off my items). Who's to say I'm not a duper and really did obtain the item from before it was even determined to be duped. Even then, if Tomas and/or others backed me up saying I bought it long before it was considered a dupe, there will be no evidence that I didn't dupe the item myself or purchased it from a major duper or dupe supplier to resell. Flip it all around and you'll have the buyer's perspective. When it all boils down, no one really knows how many real trustworthy players there are in this game. We can always give people the benefit of the doubt, but I think a lot of people choose because it's an online game, there are no consequences for one's actions, and let's face it... there are a few who already took great advantage to people's trust of them. I'm not going to name any names, but I'm sure we all know who I'm referring to. In the end, YOU determine what you want to do in this game. I'll gladly admit most of my collection is made up of items that have been duped, some heavily so. Am I okay with that? Sure, as long as I'm not trying to take advantage of others by them (i.e. selling them claiming they're originals or not dupes, etc). That doesn't mean I'm not necessarily disappointed or angry that they are dupes, it just means I've learned to live with it. Another example: I had a pair of vine cord sandals for the past 4 years. They got turned into normal sandals just like the rest. I was disappointed because I paid so much for them and valued them for what they were, but I was happy at the same time because they didn't represent the same thing now as they used to, nor did they give me the same pride in owning them. If I had sold them off, I would have felt awful as well.

    Now I'm just praying that the few items I do have that aren't suspected of being duped haven't, in fact, been duped. But we can never really know for certain. :(
     
  24. Lady Aalia

    Lady Aalia Atlantic's Finest
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    Sorry m8 i dont think its about respect...
    We are talking about people clearly violating the rules they all agree to when opening an UO account.
    When they dupe they are doing something bannable, just like scripting or speedhacking or exployting.

    And anyone who buys the stuff from them knowingly, supports them

    simple as that
     
  25. Chaosy

    Chaosy Guest

    I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with a few points here.

    The Rares Council will decide what the Rares Council is supposed to do. Duping is definitely a focus, but how to "work against" it is open to interpretation. I agree that it is NOT OKAY TO DUPE, however there is a LOT of grey area in selling dupes. A lot of duper supporters try to fence using an argument I will use here: If it is not okay to sell or buy dupes, then we should just not sell or buy anything in this game. How do I know that orny I bought off a Luna vendor was not duped? If I resold it, does that make me equally as bad a person as someone who buys duped items directly from a duper specifically for resale? Again... big grey area, and by stating such bold statements only hurts this community even more than it already is. Finally, no one in this thread has said "duping isn't so bad after all." That's just your own interpretation of what's been said.

    I shy away from this community now only to avoid open-ended arguments like this because it really gets us nowhere.
     
  26. DevilsOwn

    DevilsOwn Stratics Legend
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    maybe that's where we're all stymied.... the "knowingly" part

    would I have bought them had I known? prolly not... but prior to this most recent upheaval, how many amongst the traders really knew the severity of the problem? not many, I think
     
  27. Lady Aalia

    Lady Aalia Atlantic's Finest
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    No you missunderstand me really :)

    I really dont care about the grey areas since i know by the time the item is in a grey area the guy that has it now most likly has no clue about it.

    But if we have no dupers we wont have to worry about that, and the ones that sell them in that first sale that what i am really after.

    For the single player , all i can say its up to you how you use the information given to you, but be aware we allready had the 300 million sandals fiasco and oh dear do i remember guys here on the forum guaranteeing to their buyers that EA wont delete them.

    What i am so fed up with is that i feel yay we made that Rares council that the newer people are suppose to look at for advise. And the Council members are sitting here buying obviusly duped items in Bulk and are fighting over something that has been clear since the day UO started, duping is bad for UO and is illigal
     
  28. simonovsk

    simonovsk Lore Master
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    To sum things up, things could also be presented as follow:

    * Some people play this game

    * Some people play this game, and don't mind investing rea lifel cash to get what they want, simply because they want it and have some spare rl cash

    * Some people play this game, and don't mind investing in game gold to get advantages ig that should have been paid for with rl cash (tokens, gt codes)

    * Some people play this game, and don't mind reselling ig services or articles for real life cash

    * Some people don't mind investing rl cash cash to make more rl cash, into this game

    Oh well, maybe I'm missing a category or two, and we're all liable to go from a category to the next.

    Point is, how do you expect all those very different people can get on without arguing?

    It seems clear to me that the trading of items for real life cash shouldn't exist, and is the biggest source of problems in a game like ours, that's community based.
    That's my opinion, I don't mind debating it, but I will never consider stigmatizing anyone for it, because the whole point of this game is playing with people.
    Besides, I bought game time codes for gold in the past, and may do it again in the future, although I am not certain I was right. It's a complex world, nothing is ever white or black.
    I play online to meet people, share something with them and have fun. I collect items ig like I do irl, that's my nature, I like lore and history, and I know from experience I should never take collecting too seriously. It's a freak's behaviour :p
     
  29. Halister Marner

    Halister Marner Lore Master
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    I believe this is essentially the point, those who volunteered for the rares council took it upon themselves to be beacons of the rares community, leaders that set examples for the future rares collectors and community as a whole. If a group cannot be concise and confident in a decision that they believe is best for the entire community, and stand by that decision, then the example set towards the entire community is wasted, and the impression that the community has towards those leaders is soured.

    I'm not apart of the council, so as an outsiders perspective, I would find it extremely disheartening if there were precedents and standards being set that went largely ignored due to either greed or indecisiveness.

    If the spirit of a community is being established, there needs to be confidence in the decisions that are being made, citing grey areas and what ifs are an exercise in futility, and in the end will detract from any sort of precedent.

    Embody the standards you set, or else there will be no respect, and no community.
     
  30. Leto

    Leto Journeyman
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    What lovely a 'character witness' statement Kaj. I'm afraid though you are missing the point Alcestis was making entirely, purposely or not.

    People who knowingly trade/buy duped items deserve no respect and in fact to be tarred, as Feath puts it. Read this carefully, I said knowingly.
    Unless you've been living under a rock, when you buy a bulk of Item Bless Deeds you buy them knowing there is no source they could have come from other then a dupe.

    Call me an extremist, I don't think I am. I won't go up in arms against the unknown guy who buys a single 2-story statue or even one of those accursed Item Bless Deeds. But when a prominent member of the rares community, who supposedly is against duping, openly condones and even participates in the trade of obviously duped items; Hell yea, I will riot!
     
  31. Kaj

    Kaj Lore Keeper
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    I think you and Alc miss the main point of Nails' post and focus on a single sentence.
    You also miss the point of my post, which is not that of not being able to disagree (heck I don't even fully agree with Nails' statement on just buying everything myself, I'd sooner agree with you on that), but that of showing some respect.
    That is rude and uncalled for. You might be friends with Alc and think that's okay, but I don't think it's okay when we at least pretend to have a good and strong community.

    Again, I think duping is bad, and so is cheating and anything that stimulates that practice should be frowned upon or even banned.
     
  32. Manticore

    Manticore Babbling Loonie
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    Some of the ideas here for an UO Utopia like economy is too good to be true -- does not exist. The only player who can possibly reidcule everyone else is the one who never buys a single item from any vendor. Not a single level 11 artifact, not a piece of crafted armor, not a token etc.. Because all those items could come from a scripter or duper. Does this type of player exist? May be, but does not exist on the council. Unless somone prooves me wrong. But we are trying our best.

    Our purpose is not to form an inquistion and start lobbing heads off left and right, but we can expose them and let the rest of the community to decide. Tomas has done just that. He has posted his evidence on his blog and people can decide for themselves. Some might ingore it and continue to do business, some might think its a complete farse, but some might think there are some truth to it and take further actions.

    At the end you have to ask yourself, what we want is one thing, what is doable is another. I know it can be frustrating at times but what else can we do? We had given plenty of suggestions on how to find these items but there are so many problems with this game right now I just don't think this part (rares in general) has a high enough priority on their list. For example, they still are releasing items to nerf current rares; they take the transfers down for 1 month and on-going to do what. I thought the methods for duping was already posted on the U. Hall and couldn't they just put in a code to stop it? People have reported specific items with the spelling of names and images to help them search more easily but somehow they are still getting missed.

    I am all for open for discussions. I think it's healthy and keeps the community up on their toes. But I for one am really at a lost for what to do about this since all of us are limited to what we can do. Either I quit which I really don't want to since I really enjoy this game and I still think it's the cheapest form of entertainment around. Or, try to keep this community alive by passing on knowledge of items that I know, starting an item list that people can track, showing poeple museums, and just overall have fun with this game.
     
  33. Nails Warstein

    Nails Warstein Rares Festival Silent Auctioneer
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    Yeah I did that about two weeks ago. I thought I would bless some of my unique items that don't appear to be duped. If this is wrong to take advantage of the cheap prices when I used to pay over 100m for the same thing a year ago... well then I am sorry. Tired of paying a lot for something, and I figure once these players are banned the price will go back up. Then I won't be able to afford to do that.
     
  34. Leto

    Leto Journeyman
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    Arg, and you don't see what's wrong with that?

    I mean, I understand there is a fairly large gray area where one could claim ignorance on the origins of an item but in the case of Item Bless Deeds it's so incredibly obvious. There is no grey area with those items, everybody knows where they come from.
    Buying Item Bless Deeds, and specially in bulk, you are feeding the dupers with a silver spoon that says: "I hope you grow up to be big and strong and dupe me some more pretties. Thank you Mr. Uber Duper."

    No Sir, you don't care one bit about duping and are a willing accomplice.
     
  35. kray2s

    kray2s Guest

    This may seem a wierd post but im going to put it anyway as i feel it needs to be said!

    Everyone here has valids points but i not going to argue the rights and wrongs of whats being said and the arguments currently raging.

    what i will say is the following 2 points!

    1. Feath i have known u for a while in gam and trust me its a blow your not posting (at least as much as before)
    and my biggest point: -

    2. At a time where the rares market is being destroyed and items duped - isnt this the TIME WE SHOULD ALL BE PULLING TOGETHER AS A COMMUNITY???

    insted all i see is pancakes, internal fighting, slandering, disheartend people and a hell of a lot of whinging.

    Again i am sorry if i upset anyone but the only way we "AS A GROUP" can start to even battle the tip of the problems being moaned about is if we all pull together as a group and show we are moving forward AS ONE.

    So come on guys and gals lets do something about this insted of pointing fingers eh?
     
  36. DevilsOwn

    DevilsOwn Stratics Legend
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    thank you, kray, was just thinking the same thing... we're at each other's throats now for no good reason, we all want the same thing for our community
     
  37. kray2s

    kray2s Guest

    it needed to be said

    so i propose as a group we pull "our collective socks up" (or tights ./ stockings - i aint sexist)

    and lets deal with this as a group!!!!
     
  38. It's a very valid post and I've also been thinking that for awhile. If you can't sell with out being classified, and you cant buy without being classified, that makes us all 'guilty'.

    It's become a conumdrum of false accusations and finger pointing. Of course there will always be the select few players who are "in the know" who have contacts and sources but it's not like they'd fess up to it. So in the games reality, as Manti says, there are no more "rares" but "uniques."

    This really hurts the smaller collectors such as myself but it's the direction the game has inevitably fallen due to poor game mechanics.
     
  39. Nails Warstein

    Nails Warstein Rares Festival Silent Auctioneer
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    I agree, I can't get no respect no matter what I do. I just want to resolve this problem like everyone else. No one has lost more money in this game than I have.
     
  40. wanderer1origin

    wanderer1origin Lore Master
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    but u posted bought item blessed deeds a rarity truth., in game in bulk hmm no morals here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


     
  41. Riply

    Riply Lore Keeper
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    WOW, what a heated discussion, I saw so much text, I'm afraid I am guilty of not reading all the posts to their full extent. Some of my favorite sci books seem to be less pages in length.
    Been playing this game nearly from the start, and along the way picked up a number of server ups for fun, nothing great but a few perks that I enjoyed having to spice up my house.
    The with boredom setting in and on the verge of dropping the game i started to collect xmas statues. Not for value really or so much prestige or anything, but more for the challenge of the hunt. For more i dunno four maybe five years I have been hunting them down from all corners of the UO globe. It's been fun for me not only because i have added greatly to this collection, but most importantly I meet alot of players during my travels. To me this has been the greatest part of this game over the years has been the interaction of it. One day the game will be turned off for good, and I will still have my fond memories that it has brought me over the many years I have played.

    Reading these posts just makes me sit and wonder really the future of this "GAME". For me I will continue to collect and add to my xmas statues and have fun with inter acting with fellow players. I hope that the players that still remain who collect rares in what ever foremat that maybe do not loose sight of the fact that this is and was always meant to be a form of entertainment for those who wish to particpate. Players who no longer find this as enjoyable as it once was, maybe better served to try another game to play.

    PS: its very late at night for me and I just finished working 7 days straight so be kind about the many typos you may see ;).
     
  42. Faeryl

    Faeryl Babbling Loonie
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    I can relate to almost everything you said in your original post feath. Over the last few months I've really gotten into collecting things. As most do, I started small. Snowglobes, Christmas statues, Obsidian statues, Double Excpetionals...

    I often wander around different shards and admire peoples collections, hoping that maybe someday I'd at least be able to say I own even one item that could be catagorized as 'rare'. But lately, I've been debating on whether or not I should even bother. On one hand, collecting is something I like to do (one of my top three hobbies on UO). But on the other hand, I don't know who I can trust. I was very trusting of people when I first started playing UO, and I got burned badly. Now, I'm more cautious, even kinda paranoid.

    One particular vendor I often look at, just recently sent up red flags in my mind, as a Crystal Staff of Chaos Replica I'd been admiring suddenly dropped in price from 100mil, down to 30mil, and as I look at it now, it has dropped again to 20mil. Why such a drastic price drop? With all the recent warnings, the first thing that pops into my mind is "was it duped?"

    So I look to the Rares community for help. I don't post often, as I'll openly admit I don't know much about rares, having played for only 1 1/2 years. But alas, everytime I come to this board as of late, all I see is warnings of duping, hacking, tension, arguments, and frustration. Those kinds of posts would likely put some off the idea of starting a collection. After all, who wants a collection that can't be confirmed 100% legit? And who would want to start a collection knowing that if they become the target of a hacker, that all their time and effort would have been for naught?

    I don't buy gold, I don't pay real money for items. I am NOT saying anything bad about those that do, all I'm saying is that anything I buy in-game is a reward for my time, patience and determination to achieve my goals. If my rewards for my work were one day deleted as they were duped, it would be a huge blow to me. So in the end, I'm afraid to buy, for fear of the chance it really WAS a dupe.

    As a parting thought. Being that this is a community, why must people be constantly arguing, complaining and degrading others? I have seen many a person on these forums with helpful ideas and good intentions, but in my mind, unless everyone stops arguing and starts working together to stop the duping, this may as well be just another Trades Forum...

    - Faeryl Tyr'athem of Atlantic
     
  43. Starla

    Starla Guest

    I have sold a large part of my collection 6 month ago at a big loss from what I have spent initially. And I have since not bought anything at all because I cannot be sure what I am spending on is the 'real-deal' or just one of the millions of identical dupes sitting on every shards.

    Also if what is rumored is true, the rares trader that bought my collection, who has a long history in the trading of rares on this board, may have duped the things I have sold him.

    What Manti said is very true, either you accept the truth and just continue to collect things, bearing in mind that you may be buying and collecting dupes. Or quit, which is what I did.
     
  44. kray2s

    kray2s Guest

    i posted this a bit ago but feel it got lost
     
  45. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    Holy cow, 43 replies. I hope you guys have been behaving. Will check later.
     
  46. feath

    feath Guest

    i'm finding this thread refreshingly honest and up front. It is very much helping me settle things in my own mind, in what is acceptable and what is not acceptable to me. it would open up the discussion even more, if people who posted opposing views to other posters, were not put down for it. Shutting down ideas, thoughts, points of view, suggestions, morals, ethics, etc etc doesn't help the discussion, nor does it help for a healthy community.
    i wont post if all i'm going to do is told to 'be like us or get out'.

    i thank the new collectors who have posted here very much! i'd like to point out to the community that us new collectors ARE feeling this way. and the only people we have to come to, to talk about it, are the older rares community members. But we MUST feel that we can express views and not get shut down for them.

    And i have to say; nails, i would have done the same thing on the bless deeds. come on - like he's going to say - "no no! i must pay you 100m for each of them. it's what they were worth 1 year ago!"

    I kind of feel this thread has said what it can say, clearly. anything else would just be a round robin. i think now, all points of view have been clearly and rationally expressed. And it's now down to each person to decide what is right for them. and not get put down for making that choice, whatever it might be.

    i would ask that the rares council look at this thread, and note the comments that the older and newer rares collectors have mentioned. These are all valid ideas, even the ones that contradict each other. i feel that it would make for a much stronger, vibrant community if the council took into account the different views of the diverse community of this forum.

    If the council decides to make proclamations of 'my way, or the highway', you'll find the rares "community" gone. i sure would be gone, and i think a lot of other would too. OR you'll see the 8 fold fence - lots of smiling faces, and lots of secrecy as people do what they want to do.
     
  47. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    Mandate of Rare Council, in regards to duping, is to let people know of items that have been duped (especially really rare items that might not be widely known to have been duped) and to also let people know who indulges in duping/fencing.

    There has been some discussion regarding buying duped items but I personally feel that it is outside our power and can quickly turn into a witch-hunt with nothing good to come out of it. I believe it is best to leave it up to everyone else about what they want to do with the information provided.

    Having said that, buying known duped item(s) from someone you suspect to be a duper because they are cheap now but might become rare later is getting very close to fencing, especially if done with intent to resell. Not to mention, putting your account in grave risk because it is usually the people at the bottom of the chain who get banned.

    Its quite simple. No?
     
  48. feath

    feath Guest

    and done in such a way as no names are mentioned, because that's against TOS. in this thread, we have discussed how there really aren't 'rares' now. There are uniques, and there are duped "rares". The idea of 'rare' that has guided this community doesn't really exist anymore. pretty much ALL rares have been duped. to tell me i can't buy a rare, because it might be a duped rare, is to in effect tell me i can not buy a rare. because somewhere in its province, there is a chance it has be duped. Each person must use their judgment on just how badly or blatantly it has been duped.

    And that is the point of this thread. the paranoia. the witch hunt. the branding with a huge scarlet D on your forehead. it has turned into a witch hunt - or mob mentality, as i stated in the first post. look in the forum, its not hard to find. you will see examples in this thread, as well.

    The council can guide, inform and advise. it can even lead by example. But once it starts to tell me i'm a bad girl, or 'part of the problem' or stupid, or 'you will do this, or get out'.... then the council isn't a council, its a police state with a bad attitude. and yes, all of those examples are in this thread. of interest, the only people to say those things are in the council. Everyone else just handed out ideas, thoughts, facts and info - which i found to be of much more help.

    edit to add; i am an adult. 50, in fact. Give me the info i need to make an informed decision. i don't buy blatantly duped material. But as i've concluded from this thread's info, there are no true 'rare's, only uniques, and to expect me to agonize over a pixel purchase due the the chance it might be duped is to put me out of rares collecting.
     
  49. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    The council has not done anything of the sort. Individual opinions are not the opinion of the council which has dozens of members. Just because someone is in the council does not mean they cannot air their personal opinions, no matter how extreme they might be (perceived).

    You are welcome to buy whatever you wish. It is not like anyone can physically stop you from doing so. The position has always been to make the information available to people so that they do not get duped into paying a arm and a leg for rares which are not so rare anymore. Refer to the post by Chao where he spent 1.4 billion gold for buying a sash that is worth less than half now.

    Regarding other stuff, there are always high emotions running on stratics whenever a major duping incident happens. You cannot feel paranoid because of it. This is nothing compared to vine cords incident - even I had a headache then.
     
  50. Leto

    Leto Journeyman
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    There's the List of Duped Items which contains the most blatantly duped items. I'd say that makes a pretty decent guideline as to which items you should avoid.


    As a general comment to this thread: Saying "there are no more rares, only uniques" is like throwing in the towel and an excuse to turn a blind eye.