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The real story behind The Wintermoor SituationĀ©

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Cogniac, Aug 19, 2008.

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  1. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    I was going to post this in the other thread, but it would've become lost amidst the bizarre "Ultima vs. Final Fantasy" argument that broke out over there.

    Wintermoor and the Wintermoor Museums were founded and originally owned by Xanthar. Xanthar was one of the first rares collectors, collecting at a time when few people bothered to do so. He built two towers side by side, a north and a south wing, on the southermost tip of Ice Isle to house and display his collection. Showcased within were a great deal of Atlantic's server-birth rares, as well as Seer items and some of the original event rares such as evil Santa's red chainmail tunic from the 1997 Christmas events.

    Over time, Xanthar held many events at his museums, and expanded his land holdings into a player-run town that covered the entire southern peninsula of Ice Isle. At Wintermoor's peak, Xanthar had over 40+ accounts for holding almost every building in Wintermoor. Due to his contributions to the Atlantic community, Seers and GMs gave his museums several blessings, including a row of pine trees in front of the southern tower, a wooden wall within one of the towers, making it UO's first customized house, and making many of the towers' decorations immoveable so they could be displayed at a time when the lockdown system had not yet been implemented in UO.

    Over time, UO's playerbase declined, and since Xanthar's main interest in UO was the people playing it, so did his involvement in the game. He eventually sold off all of his properties except for the two museums, and then stopped playing entirely while keeping the last two accounts running just to preserve them.

    About a year or so ago, Xanthar finally gave up on UO entirely and decided to sell his rares collection. He still cared about the history behind his collection, though, so he wanted to sell it all as one, complete set. He knew this would take a lot of work and a lot of contacts within the rares community that were more up-to-date than any he might have, so he contacted several prominent rares dealers and eventually chose one to broker any possible deals.

    Unfortunately, since Xanthar had collected all of his rares first hand during the formative years of UO, long before the current high stakes world of rares trading came into being, he was not up to speed on who was trustworthy and who was not. Thus, he unwisely chose a broker who then became involved in allegations of duping and other activities. This broker was banned from UO, and with him went Xanthar's collection of rares.

    Many petitions were sent to EA pointing out that the rares were not actually the broker's, but were, in fact, Xanthar's. After review, EA responded by claiming that they had realized the historical importance of the collection in question, and that GMs had taken possession of the items for safekeeping. As far as I know, the items were never seen again, and neither any indication of their whereabouts nor any further mention of the incident was ever heard from EA.

    The current turmoil stems from the fact that Xanthar apparently gave up on trying to retrieve his collection and became so disenfranchised that he let the accounts holding the Wintermoor Museums to lapse, thus putting them In Danger of Collapsing. JCtheBuilder then petitioned EA in some manner, and somehow convinced them to give him the towers to preserve Atlantic shard history. I do not personally know any of the details involved in this transaction, and thus I cannot comment in any way on its specifics.

    The claims that the Museums were "full of rares" at the time of the transfer are false, since EA confiscated all of them over a year ago. The items that can be seen in the buildings are the aforementioned immoveable, GM-locked-down decorations, as well as some "items trapped in boxes" that were put down over the years.

    (Background info on "items trapped in boxes": There was a very old exploit that allowed people to place boxes at server down in various places where decorative items spawned. When the server came up, the boxes would cover every available tile, and thus the items would have nowhere to go and would spawn within one of the boxes. Unfortunately, the items would be 255 stones and could not be directly removed from the boxes. Players came up with a solution for this inconvenience when they discovered that if one were to sit the box on the ground and chop it with an axe, the box would be destroyed and the item inside would become permanently locked to the ground on the tile the box was chopped. This allowed players to choose a tile in their house to place the item at, sit the box there, and chop it to place the item. If you ever go to a bank and see small statues statically attached to the ground, this is what they are from. EA later fixed this exploit by automatically deleting items left on the ground at server down, and then declared that owning an "item trapped in a box" was a bannable offense. This ban was rescinded many years later.)

    As concerns the accusations thrown at JCtheBuilder as well as at EA: As they would say in a court of law, I am not an "expert witness." I do not know the story behind any past interactions between the accusers, JC, EA, et. al. that could possibly have lent to their suspicions surrounding this situation. Are they out for revenge for perceived injustices in the past, as some have suggested, or are they actually concerned citizens that are simply questioning authority, as have said others? I do not know, and thus I have no ground upon which to testify one way or the other.

    I, for one, applaud both JC and EA for saving this important piece of UO history. A few years back Tiffric, the owner of the Atlantic Mage Tower in Moonglow, Felucca, succumbed to a chronic illness and passed away. With no one to pay for the account, it went into default, and despite petitions to EA at the time, the AMT went IDoC and collapsed, taking with it a valuable piece of Atlantic's history. If EA had only been this helpful back then, perhaps the AMT would still be around for players to enjoy.
     
  2. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    I like the EA giving me IDOCs story better. This one doesn't have as much drama.
     
  3. Halister Marner

    Halister Marner Lore Master
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    So you mean JC isn't having a huge rares sale?

    I would have never guessed. :lol:

    I must admit, the last thread was hilarious though, a few of the posts had me laughing.

    JC needs to start making a UO version of "Punked"
     
  4. Harb

    Harb Guest

    Agreed, and sincere thanks for these comments. My promptings in the earlier thread were for this type information, though Uriah Heep also passed along what he knew - also appreciated. I have no idea of what we were looking at in the link provided to the auction from the other thread, but JC seems to have handled that well also. Again, thank you - and be well.
     
  5. Africanus

    Africanus Guest

    "JCtheBuilder then petitioned EA in some manner, and somehow convinced them to give him the towers to preserve Atlantic shard history. I do not personally know any of the details involved in this transaction, and thus I cannot comment in any way on its specifics."

    This seems like the the most important part of the post. You can applaud JC in some non related topic, name it "Let's all applaud JC for Saving UO." I am sure everyone else wants to know how they can petition EA to "choke choke" preserve shard history! You honestly can't expect this not to raise some eyebrows.
     
  6. BbqLou

    BbqLou Visitor

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    Link is just a Drama Queen, he craves the attention of people online. :coco::coco::coco::coco::coco::coco::coco::coco:
     
  7. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Hello folks. I am the new kid in town. My style is a bit rough around the edges and I call it like I see it. If you are going to troll on my watch, you had best be prepared for the consequences. *narrows eyes*
     
  8. Beefybone

    Beefybone Visitor

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    So is EA holding any other piles of loot that I can petition them to let me rescue? lol

    JEREMY I WANT FREE ITEMS PLZ
     
  9. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    I'm not in the group of people who have started nearly a half dozen topics so far on how I supposedly have EA in my pocket.
     
  10. BbqLou

    BbqLou Visitor

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    Those people must need it as bad as you, Or are you saying I am in that group? Please find ONE of my posts talking about that.

    All of your threads are either A: Complaining about something B: on how you almost won a spawn. :thumbsup:
     
  11. Lord Kynd

    Lord Kynd Guest

    hrmm
    for having Ea in your pocket ?? didn't they ban you the other day for 24 hours for your site in profile ?
    sure sounds like they are 'in your pocket'
    grin
    am very glad that part of history got saved, ea should preserve and run it tho , not a player. imo

    really was a terriable sad day when the mage tower went :( never forget it.
     
  12. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    I knew Xanthar in game and even met him irl. Great guy. I ran one of the houses in the city of wintermoor now 9 years ago...

    I know that Xanthar set up the museum (it's a museum after all) for the players of Ultima Online to go there and enjoy the fruits of his labors and to forge a piece of history on the shard of Atlantic that other people could see and appreciate.


    Whatever is being done with it, as long as this is being kept in mind and upheld... perfect. I could guarantee that's how he'd of wanted it.

    Anything less or different in any way would just be taking advantage of this game companies naivety and another persons hard work for an individual's personal game undeservingly.

    I'd also like to add that I'm reserving judgment on the situation until I understand more clearly what's going on and what's been done.


    BlacK RaiN
     
  13. Thangorodrim

    Thangorodrim Guest

    This is the exact problem.

    Why should this particular individual be gifted with the properties?

    What is the appeal process? Where is the paper trail?

    This would seem to be a precedent.

    What is the threshold of historical significance such that I can start claiming IDOCs on LS since the loss of the property would diminish posterity?

    This sounds entirely specious. "taken for safekeeping" - either they deleted those rares or they gave them to another account. Please clarify since you have chosen to take it upon yourself to set the record straight.

    Because, after all, there was until yesterday a large auction of server birth rares being held by JC. Entirely coincidence?

    So, property that housed a massive rares collection is gifted to a player who just happens to have a massive rares auction thereafter. Hmmmm.

    Why did JC terminate his rares auction if there was no connection to Xanthar's collection?

    This is not about JC; I do not know JC, nor could I care one scintilla about him, his rares or any other personal aspects of this incident.

    This is about a situation that appears to be another incident of corruption / collusion between EA staff and players.

    It would be appropriate for EA to investigate and comment.

    If this went through appropriate authority at EA, then I would like EA to update the policy on preservation of historically significant properties and criteria for transfer to other accounts.

    This post really does not resolve the outstanding questions, it in fact, simply highlights them.
     
  14. Cool. EA is in your pocked. Could I get a few things.

    Id like some random adventuring.
    And I like my stealing ideas to be implelemented.

    Just send me a message here.

    Oh by the way. The original OP.

    Outstanding. Well written. Best I have seen in a post. I believe it 100%. I was on ice island for a long time. People that didnt play then, really dont know what UO was about. The town was it.

    Keep in mind PK's were around then. And the town handled them.

    Lots of fun. So much gone.
     
  15. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    The fact that all of your posts in which you were doing so no longer exist for public consumption does not, in fact, make it any less true that you did.
     
  16. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    Raven,

    I know how you feel about Wintermoore... We had an island on Great Lakes known as Tar Valon that was blessed, many shops, wonderful place to visit. Like so many of our communities, when EA decided to send the non-PvPers packing to Trammel without any way to transfer their communities, Tar Valon fell into disuse, was finally unblessed, and now, exists only in memory.

    Those were, definitely, for player and community interaction, the best days of UO. Now nearly a decade gone.
     
  17. What was cool is that everything existed at once.
    PvP.
    Blues tamed the reds. Reds whipped the blues. But it was a very manageable situation. That gave the edge of danger.

    You lost stuff. But never needed million gold stuff. Beside other players would help you.

    Awesome merchants.

    Well designed homes. Interaction.

    Events, hunts, and all that.

    What is interesting is how much it thrived and how quickly it was killed when you created Lala land. The intention was right. The execution was wrong. And I think its good to have a land like trammel. Just shouldnt of been a mirror of FEL.

    We should of had FEL and 2ta. The way it was. Just leave it.
    Then add on NON MIRROR facets of insurance, trammel (NO PVP).

    This duplicating the realm just killed a big part of the game.
     
  18. Harb

    Harb Guest

    I like it. (my shortest post ever)
     
  19. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
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    Yeah... my guild (of which I'm the sole member now) was a huge APK guild back in the day on GL... first to cross the 150 mark, so on and so forth, and we got all most of our members because they were happy to see someone fighting back.

    I won't ever say that UO's item system has been perfect, but yeah, it did seem a lot more balanced back then. I still think we'd have gotten bored with it long ago had it not been for some of the new itemizations, but as with most things UO, it was handled wrong.

    I'll take a beating for this, but Vendors were the absolute WORST thing to happen to UO, and as much as crafters complain that crafting is dead, it's not artifacts and item insurance that caused this. It was Vendors. Back in the day, if you wanted to buy armor, you went to a blacksmith, and standing outside were player crafters. If you wanted a spellbook or scroll, you bartered with the mages at the mage shop. Or, you went out to a player-run city and bought stuff there. There were no millions of vendors scattered everywhere.

    Well, I have to say, I love the custom housing tool. But then, I have a sense of house design. Some of the houses I see (like my neighbor in Compassion Grove) make me want to vomit, but still, I'd rather have UO with custom houses than not.

    I will say that the really old days of events, when you really did have to be a roleplayer to get involved, were definitely exclusionary to non-RPers... but then, honestly, that's the way it should be. They should really find a way to resurrect the seer corp (if only by charging for a seer account that you have to qualify to get and could lose on a moment's notice) simply for some of the great plots that came out of it. Yeah, cool items came out of it too, but if you ask me, that's a good thing...

    Well, of course, I've had time to think about what happened, and understand that at that point in time, they didn't know how to dynamically update maps (it would still be a couple of years before they listened to my difference that became the difference files used to update the maps), and so they did what they thought was right. They were just 90% wrong, that's all. hehe

    Honestly, the concept of Trammel (ie: consentual PvP only) is a good thing. They should have mapped it out better. They should have never mirrored the lands. And when time came to send someone packing, it should have been the non-con folks forced to move, because while many player-run cities PvPed, it was mostly out of necessity, not choice, and EA already knew that people were looking for a way to play without fear of constantly being killed. Overnight, communities died, and it was sad.
     
  20. NB-Cats

    NB-Cats Lore Master
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    Definately a great post by the OP.

    At first, I taught JC could have easily acquired the towers through Xanthar himself.

    If EA did play a role in this, it's pretty bad...
     
  21. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    UO's last effort at a player justice system, just before Trammel, almost worked. Blues were fighting back against Reds because they knew it could make a difference. At first, there were Blues out hunting Reds seeking revenge, and most of the Reds were hiding until they could see how it worked out.
    But then the Reds realized that blues could heal them and not go gray. So they started running in mixed packs. It was a huge advantage to have healers who couldn't be attacked without causing a criminal flag, which would allow the other Blues running with the Reds to attack.
    So the Reds were back in business at full force.

    I have to disagree that any version of Trammel would have made it any different. Unless your talking about small zones, which wouldn't be acceptable because of lack of access to game assets.
    They should have:
    -made Blues go gray for healing any Red or Gray
    -made Grays who ended up killing Blues take a murder count
    (this would have drastically reduced all the PKings from those who did it only because they could get away with it)
    -made the murder penalty at death instead of res, so it couldn't be worked off as a ghost
    -and then added guards moving on roads (like they originally were supposed to have).
     
  22. Jeremy

    Jeremy Guest

    I'm a little confused - JC, are you saying EA gave you those towers, or is everyone else saying it? (I have no knowledge of such a transaction, and it's certainly against our policy.)
     
  23. NB-Cats

    NB-Cats Lore Master
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    I guess we're going to find out soon if I was right.
     
  24. Harb

    Harb Guest

    You may have something here, seriously. But for sure, it will provoke ire from many. It's probably worth a separate thread. This is the second idea I've seen in two days worth serious review/ discussion, the other by Maplestone about a pre-AOS land that would require no changes to code. The trouble with all the evolutionary type ideas, such as this one, is scorn and failure by many to remain on theme. They become burried in threads and seem never viewed by those in position to enact changes. Oh, you might get a link to the EA suggestion form, again, seemingly never to be viewed by those in a position to enact change :) Very interesting thought.
     
  25. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    I'm going to say that EA didn't give it to him even though I don't know for certain.

    I do know this much; like I, JC did and does have a relationship with the original owner, Xanthar.

    This is a bunch of people crying over spilled milk. Waaaah, no fair... when really it seems to be.
     
  26. Alvinho

    Alvinho Great Lakes Forever!
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    C: how to cry wolf about certian things causieng unnecissary Drama, *latest moongate in house*
     
  27. Halister Marner

    Halister Marner Lore Master
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    As far as I know, JC has direct contact with Xanthar, which is why I assumed the towers were transferred by Xanthar. I'm a tad confused about the EA intervention since there are several contradictory statements.

    The rares themselves being sold, as I said in a post above, were a prank and the collection has not left EA's hands.
     
  28. Harb

    Harb Guest

    Oh boy, Jeremy is in the thread :) If EA has no other means available of preserving structures of significance - my feeling is that I'd prefer to see a transfer than for the buildings to fall and be scavenged by the IDOCers. I'm not baiting an argument, many will disagree - disagree strongly. Personally, I'm in favor of preserving them, and if that necessitates a player transfer, sobeit. From that point onward, I do believe there is a commitment/ covenant to maintain it.
     
  29. Limlight

    Limlight Guest

    Thats funny because I scouted these IDOCS...

    Several points that prove your statement false.

    1. The Sheperds Crook and Tree Ornament Jewelry are normal locked down...and the jewelry has been moved.

    2. The Magical Doors on the front house were falling almost under the stairs...yet are movable with a House placement tool as Link has since then moved them....they are indeed movable.

    3. The only items that cannot be moved are the two story statues...as they are the only items without a "locked down" next to their name in the entire house.

    4. I know all of this because when they were Fairly worn...I put Gift of Life on myself and then killed myself and walked inside the houses and ressed up and walked through them.

    There were over 12 chests in each house with 70+ items in each chest.

    Yeah, I bet all those items were unmovable.

    ...Link pulled a fast one.

    *golf clap*

    Jeremy, yes...Link even admitted that EA gave him the house supposedly...he also then started a HUGE rares auction at the exact same time...which he recently stopped when people "linked" to it.

    Ironically, he ended the auction and gave the items to the highest bidder ...giving some items up for FAR BELOW their actual value.

    The bottom line is...Link pulled a fast one...and I caught him in it...called him on it...and now he has done nothing but make it look worse with his posts and auctions.
     
  30. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
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    Ya Limlight... I'm sure your opinion on this situation has nothing to do with your detest for Link or his guild HOT... riiiiiight.
     
  31. Limlight

    Limlight Guest

    LOL...You are either an ALT account for Link or you dont know me for anything...I am guessing the 2nd one....

    I get along great with MANY HOT..

    In Fact...since you seem to be a "know it all"

    Can you name the HOT member/HOT Forum Moderator that I was guilded with LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before she/he was in HOT....and I am still good friends with she/he...

    Can you name she/he?

    My opinion on this situation is because I am the one that saw it change from IDOC to owned by Link...I am the person who was at this IDOC when this happened...

    I am the same person who would call anyone in my guild to question if they did it. You sir, are obviously competely clueless to the situation.

    I dont detest the guild HOT at all. I detest cheating...and Link is even worse...because Link bashes cheaters as well...

    I used to like Link ... ALOT...but then I realized he was just the pot calling the kettle black.

    So kindly shut your mouth as you werent at the IDOC..I was..

    You obviously dont know anything of the situation...you knew Xanther...yay for you. I knew Goodman...that wouldnt make me an expert on something like this if it happened with a house of his.
     
  32. Experimental

    Experimental Lore Keeper
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    Cogniac, you left out the part where the turmoil started.
    The part where a few years ago some player who didn't know that the items in the museum were at one time REALLY IN THE GAME and a pea for a brain got ticked off and paged a GM on Wintermoor complaining that all the items in the museum must have been gotten using exploits. The GM who showed up, equally ignorant, then proceeded to delete a bunch of the items in the museum and confiscated the rest.
    This player proceeded to post on stratics angry (and obviously jealous) about the items contained in Wintermoor and was met with a wall of anger from the ppl on stratics in defense of Wintermoor when she admitted to paging a GM and getting the delete ball rolling. This anger resulted in some, but not all, of Wintermoor items getting replaced.

    I don't remember who the poster was, but I hope to the deities she no longer plays.
     
  33. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Aren't we all.
     
  34. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I hope you sent Jeremy a better answer than the one you posted.
     
  35. packrat

    packrat Guest

    I second that motion. :thumbsup:
     
  36. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    I am still trying to get over the trauma of being suspended for mentioning UOGuide in-game. I can only get out short sentences at the moment.
     
  37. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    This is one of the most confusing things I've ever heard about happening in this game. It'd be confusing enough if the facts were not in dispute, which they do seem to be.

    lol

    Oh well, at least it's not on LS yet.....

    Oh btw, J. we're still meeting on LS in 5 minutes and you're still giving me Slik's Tavern, right?

    Just kidding.

    -Galen's player
     
  38. Well EA just gave me the ORIGIN SHARD.

    I declined. What do I want with another dead shard in my pocket?
     
  39. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Hawk it at the West Brit Bank on some other shard.

    After you can't sell it, because people think you duped it, announce you're leaving the game and you're going to let it decay on the account.

    Then come back in 6 months, surprised to see it still in your bank box. Dupe it, get banned for duping, then complain.

    OK I'm just going to stop now, before this becomes a run-on post.

    Too late.

    -Galen's player
     
  40. Fortyniner

    Fortyniner Guest

    I guess nobody remembers when the entire community was put up for sale in one lot in the name of Xanthar's wife, and they were told that houses with blessings could not be sold.
     
  41. walter_mitty

    walter_mitty Guest

    links boasting on his site that theres nothing anyone can do about it.
    and is probably laughing all the way to his bank.
     
  42. Limlight

    Limlight Guest

    Thats Link saying
    "theres nothing anyone can do about it."

    Regardless of sense of humor...the way he handled this screams of scumbag.

    Its too bad...unlike the large population of Atlantic...I respected HOT.

    That just went out the window.
     
  43. Beefybone

    Beefybone Visitor

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    The thing is, I don't think JC has actually come out and tried to explain anything. If he had just come out on day one and gone "WTF? Here's my perfectly reasonable story, now bugger off!" I don't think there would have been much notice taken.
     
  44. Spree

    Spree Babbling Loonie
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLyrbDblw-Y
     
  45. Harb

    Harb Guest

    Good lord Lim, we all know how you "feel" about this, constant repetition doesn't add anything. I'm taking no side. Something that tends to work for me is putting myself in the other guy's shoes, once I have at least some knowledge of the shoe size. I don't know if EA gave JC the towers. Wearing the admin's shoes, at the time, with knowledge of the player, and without other options, and with the authority - I would have given him the towers. I don't know him. I don't play ATL. I know UO, and the community. I know that regardless of actions taken, there will be strong reactions, for legitimate reasons to those objecting, on either side of any issue/ action. JC did err, from my view, on what seems to have been his latest "prank." Bad timing, sensitive subject, no explanation, a little too much fun stroking the flames, etc. But you're beating the proverbial dead horse, beyond the time that the intersted onlookers have walked away from the corpse.
     
  46. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

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    This was not a prank. I think it is time I post the entire story. I will start a new topic in a little while with everything explained.
     
  47. Harb

    Harb Guest

    Thank you sir!!!
     
  48. Limlight

    Limlight Guest

    Sounds good. I will read it...and if I am wrong...I will gladly admit my error.

    Unlike alot of people, I will gladly admit when I am wrong.

    Couple notes...some explanation for why you said it was empty on a post would help too.

    :thumbsup:
     
  49. Alvinho

    Alvinho Great Lakes Forever!
    Stratics Veteran

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    Am I the only one seeign smoke and mirrors, granted he is allowed to say what he wants on his forums, but the detail of how he is placeing all the twisting of words, short replys, on top of asking for a price check on magic doors and statues on the forums do not seem much of a joke to me.

    The person in qustion JC, Link whoever he wants to be called, you are makeing a real mess around here, and joke or not, this is not building community, and if you truely cared about teh community all teh oddly timed price checks, auctions and stopages with the message that pick up your item by now or the bid is not valid is getting beyond stupid here.

    UOguide, is on the bottom of the signature a reason you recieved a suspention, that everyone who loged into stratics 2-3 weeks ago stateing things for sale for rl cash are not alloed still flies in your signature.

    What I am seeing here is Waa, i recieved a suspention about my website selling items for rl money, but you flick your nose about it continueign to have it in the signature. Noone shoudl be allowed to post items for RL money here according to Burkee the stratics site admin.

    So, I am noone but a lurking pest here, I am courious, this auction was it a hoax, being continued along a sick line with price checks on rares forums for statues and magic doors, just like that moongate crap and white hooded shroud, just a way to get attention, or is all this real that you are useing your suspention as an excuse not to speak about these questionable items?
     
  50. Sheridan

    Sheridan Guest

    It should be noted that intent is taken into account when it comes to the newest rule of our RoC. UOGuide is not - by nature, design, or otherwise - meant to be a real money trading site. It's simply an information site. Links to UOGuide are just fine here on the Stratics forums.
     
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