1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

*THE* solution against botting... already exists

Discussion in 'EA Land/The Sims Online Stratics Forums' started by Guest, Feb 18, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Yes, it's that simple [​IMG]

    We all know that to prevent forum spam, you're often required to enter some camouflaged or scrambled letters as bot programs are not able to read them.

    So... my solution:

    * Increase the time it takes to finish a money object by 150%
    * When the objects needs to be clicked for the payout, have a popup with 1 or 2 scrambled letters appear. After you typed it, you will receive the payout. There's also a 'generate' button if you can't read it very well and you want new letters.

    Increase of the time it takes to finish a money object is done to accommodate to the players. So they don't have to click that often. I rather earn 20 by 1x10 minute painting than 2x5 minute painting... Easier for me [​IMG]

    For group objects you could have a random player receiving a popup. Of course, increase the payouts a bit to soften the annoyance effect of the anti-bot popup.

    Anyway, no bot will be able to make money that way and the solution is already in place at countless websites.

    Ok, you may flame me now [​IMG]
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    no flames, just this exact solution has already been brought up umpteen thousand times in the past several years.
     
  3. If the payout you received was decent, yes, but for the peanuts money objects pay at the moment.....I don't think so!
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    no flames, just this exact solution has already been brought up umpteen thousand times in the past several years.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I wasn't around then, what were the arguments against it? [​IMG]

    Oh well, this topic may die in peace then...
     
  5. This sounds like the best solution so far. I don't see why people would be against it.
     
  6. I think the only objections to this was the annoyance of having to deal with all the popups. How many tries do you get to typo in the right letters before you lose your payout?
     
  7. I would think you could regenerate as many times as you need. Probably 3 trys before you lose your payout. You get a popup everytime you get a skill point, why not for everytime you complete an object?
     
  8. Paula777

    Paula777 Guest

    __________________________________________________________________* When the objects needs to be clicked for the payout, have a popup with 1 or 2 scrambled letters appear. After you typed it, you will receive the payout. There's also a 'generate' button if you can't read it very well and you want new letters.
    __________________________________________________________________

    That would make everyone a suspect, what happened to innocent until proven guilty?!
     
  9. If you're innocent then you wont be proven guilty...

    This is the best solution so far and it dosn't require that much work. I say put in TC3 and hurry testing so payouts can go up in EAL.
     
  10. Paula777

    Paula777 Guest

    naw don't agree, i'm way innocent in that matter but if i have to confirm payout with a letter everytime.. i'd feel like an untrusted player.. even though they couln't ever find me using a third party program...

    kinda what the moslems are goin through right now...
     
  11. Paula777

    Paula777 Guest

    also don't think we should all be stressed out with confirming anything every payout just cuz a few of you are jealous or whatever of botters....

    let it go already! don't even know how many there are, how many simoleans they produce (can't be too much with payouts nowadays) and how big it affects anything...

    let them run the pc all night long, their electricity haha [​IMG]
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    As much as it sounds like a good idea in theory...I can tell you that it won't be taken very well by anybody. Kind of like searches at the airport. Sure, it is for everybody's well being, but it is still hell to go through.

    I do not like random number/letter boxes of death. They irritate me a lot. There is a special spot in the dark side of my heart for them, and the only time I really have to deal with them is when I'm registering for a new site or something. I cannot imagine having to deal with them everytime I want an $18 payout.
     
  13. Paula - I think you're underestimating the severity of this situation. Botters are ruining the economy which is making it worse on the rest of us. Ignoring botters will just get us back in the situation pre-Luc/TSO-e.

    Sindran- Payouts will rise once botters are gone/can't operate.
     
  14. Paula777

    Paula777 Guest

    you might be overestimating..

    before makin game more stressful for every1, you might get some numbers
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Paula - I think you're underestimating the severity of this situation. Botters are ruining the economy which is making it worse on the rest of us. Ignoring botters will just get us back in the situation pre-Luc/TSO-e.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    While botters ARE ruining the economy and making it harder for the rest of us to make money, I think they are being given too much credit. Ignoring them is a bad idea. It'll make it worse on all of us, but unless the bots are smart enough to happen across an exploit during their never changing cycle of money, green, repeat, I don't think they are making as much of an effect as many are adamant that they do.
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    A finetuned version, but one that probably is impossible to implement because it goes against the default TSO interface:

    * after you click on sell a painting, a popup appears with 1 scrambled letter and a regenerate button.
    * If you type the wrong letter, a new letter will appear
    * You don't have to hit enter. The letter-typing will be resolved immediately
    * When you completed the letter-typing (one keyboard action), you will automatically start using the same money object again.

    This actually saves time...normally you have to mouse click 2 or 3 times to reuse the item.

    Same with money objects. Once in a random time (5 minutes or so) one of the users gets the popup requiring him to hit 1 single letter to make the popup disappear.

    But all in all, the innocent until proven guilty is a very solid argument. Besides, popups every time are very intrusive. This finetuned version however is not intrusive at all as it is even more efficient. Ecxcept for the group objects. Random popups are intrusive indeed.
     
  17. Paula777

    Paula777 Guest

    u are nuts lol
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    A finetuned version, but one that probably is impossible to implement because it goes against the default TSO interface:

    * after you click on sell a painting, a popup appears with 1 scrambled letter and a regenerate button.
    * If you type the wrong letter, a new letter will appear
    * You don't have to hit enter. The letter-typing will be resolved immediately
    * When you completed the letter-typing (one keyboard action), you will automatically start using the same money object again.

    This actually saves time...normally you have to mouse click 2 or 3 times to reuse the item.

    Same with money objects. Once in a random time (5 minutes or so) one of the users gets the popup requiring him to hit 1 single letter to make the popup disappear.

    But all in all, the innocent until proven guilty is a very solid argument. Besides, popups every time are very intrusive. This finetuned version however is not intrusive at all as it is even more efficient. Ecxcept for the group objects. Random popups are intrusive indeed.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, this idea is much better than the first, imo. It'll be interesting to see what the team's current plans are when they are put into effect, that is, if they are are even at all visible or if they are more behind-the-scenes.
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    u are nuts lol

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I know [​IMG]

    I like nuts too btw [​IMG]
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I have a couple of reasons for being against this kind of thing.

    First there are many disabled players in TSO, some of them have told me the reason they play TSO is because its user friendly. Anything that will cause issues for these players bothers me because it pleases me to no end when someone tells me TSO allows them to experience parts of life they never can otherwise. How about players with sight issues, surely someone will say but I'm half blind and I cant see the letters they want me to enter and the game stole my money...thats no fair!

    Next, anything that makes players suffer to stop botters is historically a bad thing. Lets not forget how badly received OWP and screen shift were received, things that still plague us to this day and they didnt do a thing to slow down botters.

    The answer to stopping botters has to be something that we as players dont even know exists. I have a feeling that the devs have a solution to the problem, I dont expect to know what that is. If they tell us how they are stopping them that just lets the bad guy know what to do to get around it. Sorta like some law enforcement dont appreciate shows like CSI because it teaches criminals how to not get caught.

    *can no longer type plaque or plague without thinking of Donavan...sigh*
     
  21. Paula777

    Paula777 Guest

    _________________________________________________________________The answer to stopping botters has to be something that we as players dont even know exists. I have a feeling that the devs have a solution to the problem, I dont expect to know what that is. If they tell us how they are stopping them that just lets the bad guy know what to do to get around it. Sorta like some law enforcement dont appreciate shows like CSI because it teaches criminals how to not get caught.

    *can no longer type plaque or plague without thinking of Donavan...sigh*
    ________________________________________________________________

    voting for dashboard cams
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    That would make everyone a suspect, what happened to innocent until proven guilty?!

    [/ QUOTE ]<blockquote><hr>

    naw don't agree, i'm way innocent in that matter but if i have to confirm payout with a letter everytime.. i'd feel like an untrusted player.. even though they couln't ever find me using a third party program...

    kinda what the moslems are goin through right now...

    [/ QUOTE ]<blockquote><hr>

    also don't think we should all be stressed out with confirming anything every payout just cuz a few of you are jealous or whatever of botters....

    let it go already! don't even know how many there are, how many simoleans they produce (can't be too much with payouts nowadays) and how big it affects anything...

    let them run the pc all night long, their electricity haha [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]<blockquote><hr>

    you might be overestimating..

    before makin game more stressful for every1, you might get some numbers

    [/ QUOTE ]<blockquote><hr>

    u are nuts lol

    [/ QUOTE ]<blockquote><hr>

    voting for dashboard cams


    [/ QUOTE ]I am trying very hard not to overanalyze this, but - so far, your only responses to this issue have been to minimize or laugh off the problem, declare the solution a bad one without qualification, or simply throw red herrings all over the place.

    If I didn't know any better...

    Anyways - I believe this solution would be rather annoying, but it has merit. Something that requires human eyes and human intelligence to be able to proceed would stop a bot dead in its tracks. However, someone else here had already proposed a solution very similar to this one, but instead of having to type anything, the player simply has to click the appropriate button representing the right answer. Yes, this increases the chances of the bot guessing the right answer, but how many times in a row can a bot really guess the right answer? And in the meantime, the text-in-graphic can be fairly easy to read (how many bots come with OCR scanners anyways?), so it wouldn't take the player long to read the challenge, click the right button, and be on his or her way.
     
  23. ozzynowgone

    ozzynowgone Guest

    one big issue with this is the fact that most ppl have pop up blockers on computers another issue is i havent seen anywhere info fromthe dev asking the community hey guys we are clueless about the bot problem help us fix it they say they are working on it if you all wanna be programmers apply for a job then be a part of the solutions
     
  24. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    one big issue with this is the fact that most ppl have pop up blockers on computers another issue is i havent seen anywhere info fromthe dev asking the community hey guys we are clueless about the bot problem help us fix it they say they are working on it if you all wanna be programmers apply for a job then be a part of the solutions

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Uhm, I didn't mean explorer popups but the TSO popups (like when you skill up).
     
  25. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    one big issue with this is the fact that most ppl have pop up blockers on computers another issue is i havent seen anywhere info fromthe dev asking the community hey guys we are clueless about the bot problem help us fix it they say they are working on it if you all wanna be programmers apply for a job then be a part of the solutions

    [/ QUOTE ]Popup blockers only affect browser windows, and have absolutely nothing to do with TSO.

    And, you're correct - The devs have not come to us asking for our help in combatting the bots. Does that mean we do not have the right to suggest and discuss solutions anyways? Or is this a topic that is too near and dear to your heart?
     
  26. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    Anyways - I believe this solution would be rather annoying, but it has merit. Something that requires human eyes and human intelligence to be able to proceed would stop a bot dead in its tracks. However, someone else here had already proposed a solution very similar to this one, but instead of having to type anything, the player simply has to click the appropriate button representing the right answer. Yes, this increases the chances of the bot guessing the right answer, but how many times in a row can a bot really guess the right answer? And in the meantime, the text-in-graphic can be fairly easy to read (how many bots come with OCR scanners anyways?), so it wouldn't take the player long to read the challenge, click the right button, and be on his or her way.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That would be a good idea too. A popup 'Do you want to sell the painting?" followed with 5 buttons with graphics on it. 1 of them has a 'yes' graphics, the rest a 'no' graphic.

    And of course, the moment you hit yes, you will start painting again. This way there will be no extra mouse-click be required.
     
  27. <blockquote><hr>

    naw don't agree, i'm way innocent in that matter but if i have to confirm payout with a letter everytime.. i'd feel like an untrusted player.. even though they couln't ever find me using a third party program...

    kinda what the moslems are goin through right now...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Come on peoples [​IMG]. Is it so much work to type in a few letters? If you don't like feeling as if your a suspect. Then how do you feel of the government wire tapping us ? [​IMG]
     
  28. Paula777

    Paula777 Guest

    katheryne


    Yes! Was just a matter of time before ms. katheryne steps in .. Funny you're mentioning red herrings.
    Trashing me and stumbling around the given idea don't make a good post either.

    Minimizing my comments doesn't mean my opinions are less than your novels...
    I haven't laughed at the problem really, i laughed at the hard and silly attempt of the guy trying to make it all go away, he might just not get his parents to stretch their cc-bill.

    Plus who knows how good that guy is updating his programs since he's making rl money off of it.

    I was asking for *qualification* first, since the subject has been done to death without any facts.
     
  29. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    u are nuts lol

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I know [​IMG]

    I like nuts too btw [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]
    that can be interpreted any many different ways, hehe [​IMG]
     
  30. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Katheryne, I don't think many people in here realise what it means if botters aren't knocked on the head completely.
    If botters are allowed to continue the game will remain very much what it was before. Amost all the ideas the devs have for the game revolve around the buyback being enabled. Without the buyback many of their ideas will not reach the potential they need for it all to work. The game will follow the path it did before except this time things will happen much faster.
     
  31. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    *can no longer type plaque or plague without thinking of Donavan...sigh*


    [/ QUOTE ]
    My work on this planet is done.

    p.s. Don't get me started on C.S.I.
    It's not science, it's not science fiction, and it 'soiteny' (nyuck) ain't law enforcement.
    What it is, is [censored] (male bovine exhaust). (Like "Pearl Harbor" - another Jerry Bruckheimer laff riot.)



    ...and that's the truth.
     
  32. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    *can no longer type plaque or plague without thinking of Donavan...sigh*


    [/ QUOTE ]
    My work on this planet is done.

    p.s. Don't get me started on C.S.I.
    It's not science, it's not science fiction, and it 'soiteny' (nyuck) ain't law enforcement.
    What it is, is [censored] (male bovine exhaust). (Like "Pearl Harbor" - another Jerry Bruckheimer laff riot.)



    ...and that's the truth.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Did you hang a plague on the wall or something Donovan??
     
  33. dinaj

    dinaj Guest

    I do not see how her post was disparaging.
     
  34. ozzynowgone

    ozzynowgone Guest

    now im the second person that didnt completely agree with the idea so you katheryne insinuate that we are botters so if someone disagrees with you they are cheating how is that helpfull to the discussion at all and yes ppl have the right to discuss anything they wish you can have your opinion as i can have mine a discussion is an exchange of ideas

    and to your comment about near and dear to my heart ill answer that with a question for you how can i be botting if i dont play the game anymore
     
  35. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    now im the second person that didnt completely agree with the idea so you katheryne insinuate that we are botters so if someone disagrees with you they are cheating how is that helpfull to the discussion at all and yes ppl have the right to discuss anything they wish you can have your opinion as i can have mine a discussion is an exchange of ideas

    [/ QUOTE ]This from the person who effectively told us all to drop the subject and shut up because the devs didn't request our input, yes?
     
  36. Actually, the developers did ask for our input about bots. However, I am not going to take the time to go back through the archives of the www.tso-e.com/blog to find the beginning of the discussion. It was months ago.
     
  37. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Actually, the developers did ask for our input about bots. However, I am not going to take the time to go back through the archives of the www.tso-e.com/blog to find the beginning of the discussion. It was months ago.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Click. Control F: Bot
     
  38. ozzynowgone

    ozzynowgone Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    now im the second person that didnt completely agree with the idea so you katheryne insinuate that we are botters so if someone disagrees with you they are cheating how is that helpfull to the discussion at all and yes ppl have the right to discuss anything they wish you can have your opinion as i can have mine a discussion is an exchange of ideas

    [/ QUOTE ]This from the person who effectively told us all to drop the subject and shut up because the devs didn't request our input, yes?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    see you cant dispute what i said so then you take it on a different tact and claim another wrong statement i havent told anyone to shut up by any means nor did i say that the dev wanted input i did say i havent seen where they had asked for it and according to other posts they have asked for it

    i did state that the dev have stated they are working on the issue
     
  39. I can see how this can be annoying to some people, but i think its the best idea so far.
     
  40. turtleface

    turtleface Guest

    I think it's a great idea. I can't imagine it failing to stop botters. I can see how it would get annoying, but personally I'd be happy to put up with that annoyance.
    However, how about this idea, which i think might be even less annoying then 1 keyboard action:

    Instead of a pop-up where you have to type in the correct letter, what if we had a popup with about 6 buttons, each with a different letter on it, and only one was the right letter. You have to click the right one to get the payout, and if you get it wrong, you don't get paid [which would be annoying if you made a mistake, but i don't think any of us would actualy make mistakes very often with just 1 letter]
    So you just look at what letter it is, and click on the right button.

    Also, to help ward off botters who would settle for a one in six chance or whatever of a payout, the popup's position on the screen is random for each payout- one time it might be right in the middle, but the next time it might be off to the left just a bit, and so on. So there would have to be a human looking at the screen to tell it where to click.

    i'm sure this or something very close must have been suggested before, sorry if i'm being too repetetive.
     
  41. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    u are nuts lol

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I know [​IMG]

    I like nuts too btw [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]
    that can be interpreted any many different ways, hehe [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That's just your dirty mind at work [​IMG]
     
  42. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    However, how about this idea, which i think might be even less annoying then 1 keyboard action:

    Instead of a pop-up where you have to type in the correct letter, what if we had a popup with about 6 buttons, each with a different letter on it, and only one was the right letter. You have to click the right one to get the payout, and if you get it wrong, you don't get paid [which would be annoying if you made a mistake, but i don't think any of us would actualy make mistakes very often with just 1 letter]
    So you just look at what letter it is, and click on the right button.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes, it's indeed suggested above by Katherine [​IMG]
     
  43. nobuttkisser

    nobuttkisser Guest

    I have an easier solution.... at a ramdom point in the game if someone is 'afk' (lets assume that no one is at the computer so person is either not at computer or computer generated program exhist).. have the game ask for a ten alpha-numeric response (displayed on darkened screen while game is frozen for particular computer.) if no response in 66 seconds, game closes out. computer stamps incident on person's account. three such incidents equals a 30 day suspension, three suspensions (90 days) within 6 months, account is deleted (purged) from computer with IP marked in a BANNED IP database....


    now, that will surely put a stop on botters and afking at the same time............ oooh i'm a genious lol
     
  44. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>


    However, how about this idea, which i think might be even less annoying then 1 keyboard action:

    Instead of a pop-up where you have to type in the correct letter, what if we had a popup with about 6 buttons, each with a different letter on it, and only one was the right letter. You have to click the right one to get the payout, and if you get it wrong, you don't get paid [which would be annoying if you made a mistake, but i don't think any of us would actualy make mistakes very often with just 1 letter]
    So you just look at what letter it is, and click on the right button.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes, it's indeed suggested above by Katherine [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yep, she reffered to a post I put in here a few days back, this is the post.

    <blockquote><hr>


    I know this is roughly done, but it should give people an idea of what I am on about. I thought I would put it in here to see what people thought.

    Bots can be stopped, what’s needed is to stop them from being able to continue running is to have them not able to answer a question that constantly comes up. The best place to have this question is at payout. It can be done using the following method.

    When a task is completed and payment is required a box will appear on the screen instead of clicking the object to receive your payment.
    That box will contain a pixel box with 3 letters, which is a proven method of security against bots used all over the world for more valuable information than here in EA Land. Using only 3 letters is more than sufficient and makes identification easier.

    Under that box are 4 buttons, 1 of which in a randomly selected position has the correct match to letters in the pixel box. Using the buttons makes it easier to answer “still just a click of the mouse”, does not require any typing and reduces the number of incorrect answers by the user.

    A check box to mark wether you wish to continue the task or not. This makes it a 1 click operation for single money objects. The check box remains checked until the player does not wish to continue.

    A program to determine the amount of incorrect answers. To stop botting, 3 out of 5 incorrect answers would suspend the account for 24 hours. A player would have to be blind to have more than 2 out 5 incorrect answers. A bot would average 3 out 4 incorrect as the best it could do is randomly select 1 button out of the 4.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I did a fair bit of work on this, looked into how the pixel boxes worked and what sort of security they offered. Basically there are several different ways of creating the hidden letters, some offering only low security to very high. On even the best done boxes a bot “very complicated programming” can still be made to read them with a certain amount of efficiency. They read the pixels and come up with probabilities. The best that one was able to achieve was 70% on one letter. When letters are added the probability of getting the correct answer reduces accordingly. 2 letters = .7 x .7 = 49%. 3 letters = .7 x .7 x .7 = 34%.
    Using this method no non payment penalty would have to be applied. It's simple, a bot would very quickly get 3 wrong answers out of 5 and would cause the account to be suspended for 24 hours. A real person would get most right, and would have to be a complete idiot to get 3 out 5 wrong. As far as someone not being able to see well enough to see the letters, well I have to ware glasses to read the text in the game. If someone couldn't see that well they would have trouble playing the game anyway.
     
  45. turtleface

    turtleface Guest

    Kind of an expansion on the idea, maybe....
    I was thinking about the idea of having to choose the right button for the randomly generated letters, and Ithought it would be less annoying and more fun and gamelike if the popup that came up, instead of saying something like 'please select the button matching the letters generated above bla bla' kind of thing, they could make it more... um, fun, by having it say something like [eg if you were making jams]

    "You made strawberry jam! [or apple, or apricot, maybe it could be randomly generated from a list for the sake of being more fun?] Your shipping code is [randomly generated letters/numbers] Please select the correct shipping code below"

    It's be less annoying and more sim-like, wouldn't it? Like, less intrusive into the game? Lol, well i'm overtired and thought it would be fun, it could be the stupidest idea ever for all I know, and i've probaby done a bad job of explaining it, too [​IMG]
     
  46. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    "You made strawberry jam! [or apple, or apricot, maybe it could be randomly generated from a list for the sake of being more fun?] Your shipping code is [randomly generated letters/numbers] Please select the correct shipping code below"

    It's be less annoying and more sim-like, wouldn't it? Like, less intrusive into the game? Lol, well i'm overtired and thought it would be fun, it could be the stupidest idea ever for all I know, and i've probaby done a bad job of explaining it, too [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]I like it! [​IMG]