1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

The Top Ten Lies Cheaters Tell Themselves

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Llewen, May 14, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    Cheating is a form of lying. The central lie is that something was earned when it fact it was not, whether that something in an MMO is gold, or an item, or praise, or a win in pvp. At the heart of every cheat is that lie, "I deserve this."

    The thing about lying is that it is like a virus, when you tell a lie it tends to multiply, and more lies have to be told to support the first lie, then lies have to be told to support the lies that supported the first lie, and on it goes. To quote Sir Walter Scott, "Oh what a tangled web we weave..."

    The same can be said for cheating in MMO's, and in UO specifically. There is the first lie, "I deserve this", and then there are a series of lies which are told to support that lie. Some are told to justify the behaviour, or excuse it, some are told to avoid detection, and others are told to prevent others from doing anything to stop the behaviour.

    Cheaters will lie to others, but the first person a cheater will lie to is himself. In celebration of this tangled web, I thought I'd post a list of the top ten lies that cheaters tell themselves, and others.

    1. The central lie, the one I've already discussed, "I deserve this." The central lie is that the cheater has earned something which he has not.

    2. "Everyone is doing it." How many times have I heard this out of cheaters mouths, or the mouths of those defending cheaters? I've lost count. The simple truth is, everyone is not doing it. There may be a lot of cheaters in UO, they may even be in the majority, but the truth is there are still a lot of honest people playing UO, that actually do follow the TOS, and who do not cheat.

    3. "I have to cheat to compete." Another lie, as common as dirt. The truth is that you don't have to cheat to compete, there are many people who do quite well, who do not cheat. Those who don't cheat may be at a disadvantage, but saying you have to cheat to compete, is a lie. The simple truth is that if you don't cheat you improve your game relative to those who do cheat. It should be blindingly obvious, but in case it isn't, I'll say it anyway. You will be a better player if you choose not to cheat. I'm not talking about being "morally better", I'm talking about actually being better at the game.

    4. "I'm just levelling the playing field." This really is just another version of lie number 3, but I have read it often enough, and heard it often enough, that it deserves it's own place. The truth is cheaters aren't trying to level the playing field, they are trying to "win".

    5. "I'm not good enough." This is the lie that is implied every time someone cheats. It's the saddest of all the lies, and it isn't said out loud or put in writing, but it is what cheating implies. I'm not skilled enough, or smart enough to do well at the game without cheating.

    6. "It's just a game!" Oh this is one of the whoppers. A real big one, and extremely common. My own personal integrity doesn't matter, because it's just a game. An entire book could be written debunking this lie, but the nut of it would be what a wise man once said, what you do in things that don't matter is a good indication of what you will do when things do matter.

    I've posted about this elsewhere and I don't want to make this post any longer than it has to be, but the simple truth is the bad habits you learn in a safe, less meaningful context, such as a game, have a strange way of spilling over into contexts where the stakes are much higher.

    7. "I'm not really cheating." Another one of the whoppers, and another one that you hear all the time. It is usually followed by another lie, "I'm not really cheating, I'm just..." And a couple of those will follow. The truth is if you are doing something that breaks the TOS to gain an advantage in game, you are cheating.

    8. "I'm just exposing the flaws in the game!" This is usually preceded by the, "I'm not really cheating" lie. Yes you just duped 2 billion gold pieces worth of gold and items, and are selling it like mad for real $$, to expose the flaws in the game. This one is usually so ridiculous it isn't even worth commenting on, but I will anyway. The truth is if you find a bug, or an exploit, there are proper ways of dealing with that information. There is more than one option for bug reporting, and you can page a gm, and better yet, do both.

    9. "The GM's/devs don't care, so why should I?" This is perhaps the hardest of the lies to answer. The truth is that the devs and the gm's do care, but it is also true that they haven't had, and don't have, the resources to police every pixel in the game, and often bugs and exploits are hard to replicate and/or take time to find a solution for. And I'm sure there have been bad apples among the devs and the GM's especially, who really haven't cared.

    But there are only so many devs and GM's, and only so many hours in the day, and there are appropriate channels for reporting GM's that aren't doing their jobs, or are exploiting their position, in the very rare cases where this is an issue. And regardless of that, personal integrity does matter, and you can reread the response to lie number six if you like because it also applies here.

    10. "I have to win." There are many lies implied by this lie, and a couple of them are terribly sad. "I have to win or nobody will love me." "I have to win or I won't love myself." But it is still a lie. Why do you have to win? Does your job depend on you beating Mr. X in pvp? Will your marriage fall apart if you don't have 1,000,000,000,000gp stowed away in your ten castles? Is having a hundred duped copies of Tangle going to prevent global warming?

    Sure, you might be able to make some real $$ by cheating. And you could end up on the receiving end of a lawsuit, that has happened. Or you could end up with a criminal record. That has also happened.

    The most powerful lies are at least partly true, and it is true, "It's just a game." It's true that "It's just a game" and you don't have to win. Winning at this game isn't going to make you a better father or mother, or help you do better in university, or improve your job performance. On the other hand, the lessons you learn playing a game without breaking the rules, might actually help you in your "real life" - lessons like perseverance, patience, and how to work for and save for something you really want.

    edit: I've added a couple more to my increasingly inappropriately named "Top Ten List" from posts further down. Many others have offered good ideas, these are just some other ones that I've added.

    11. "The game is going to die if something is done about cheating." This is another one I've read in many forms, many times on this forum and elsewhere. "If all the cheaters are banned, no one will be left playing the game!" This really is just another version of lie number 2. "If no one can cheat, no one will want to play the game anymore."

    The simple truth is that games where cheating is under control, and cheaters are dealt with effectively, do better and attract more clients, while games with an out of control cheating problem, do worse, and drive clients away.

    How many people stopped playing Diablo II, or refused to buy it in the first place because of the problems that game had with cheating? And the same can be said for UO. Only it is worse with UO because it is a subscription based game, and when a subscription is cancelled, EA loses money.

    I can guarantee you that far more have left the game because of cheating than have stayed, or picked up the game because they could cheat. And in fact I would say the number of people who have maintained their subscription specifically because they could cheat, or have opened a subscription specifically because they could cheat is minuscule compared to the number that have cancelled their subscriptions specifically because of cheating, or have refused to purchase the game in the first place specifically because of the problems UO has with cheating.

    And I can also guarantee you that those who have opened a subscription, or maintained a subscription specifically because they could cheat, have done far more damage, and cost EA far more money, than they have payed in subscription fees - and we are likely talking six figure multiples here.

    When you examine it the lie is so obvious it goes beyond being ridiculous.

    12. "I'm not hurting anyone." In one form this is just a version of, "It's just a game", but there's a lot more to it than that. When you cheat you teach your children, or the children of other people that rules aren't important, and if you get away with it, you teach them that there are no consequences for breaking the rules. You may be able to separate what you are doing in game from what happens in your "real life", but I can assure you, children do not easily make that distinction. Cheating distorts the economy of an MMO and devalues the game play of honest clients. Cheating drives honest clients away in many ways, one of those ways is the frustration of consistently losing in pvp to a cheater.

    And one of the most damaging effects of an out of control cheating problem is false accusations. In a situation where there is an out of control cheating problem it becomes very hard to tell the cheaters from the honest players, and anyone who is successful is automatically the object of suspicion. This is another way that cheating devalues the game play of honest clients.

    *Special thanks to Lady Flame a.k.a. Spirit for her help with this post.*
     
  2. MAN... you beat me to this posting! I was thinking about the very same thing, but wording it to ask people why they cheat, what their justifications are.

    I want to post a poll (anonymous of course) to ask why people cheat. I don't know if people would vote honestly but I am curious about the results. The problem would be to keep the insults and flaming down, which I am not looking for.
     
  3. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
    Reporter Professional Governor Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter Royal Knight

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    18,959
    Likes Received:
    5,449
    Good...

    And I agree...

    How many times I've either heard the excuses or tried to show them the "err" of their ways/beliefs...

    Though it never works...

    My least favorite... that I hear all to often.... "It's only a game."..... "No one cares" and "Everyone does it".....

    NO EVERYONE does NOT do it.... YES many of us DO CARE... and to you it may be just a game..... but to me it's a release.... a place to go... a place to relax... and a place to let my imagination run wild.

    Everytime I see something outrageously priced... see someone scripting... see those 10 or 20 valorite hammers and the 50 barbed kits for sale I am sickened by the idea that they are ill gotten gains... and I have to wonder .... are there not any honest players anymore???

    I've heard I don't know how many say.... "You have to have a house in Luna to sell anything"...

    You know what I'd like to see..... NOTHING sold in Luna but runes... Runes to good vendors. Everyone who rents vendors in Luna should just put runes to their own establishments on them... That would put an end to Luna once and for all. Eventually everyone would find their favorite vendor spots... and Luna would be a thing of the past... the only ones with huge shops there would either be the cheaters or the legitimate vendor... Pity it would never happen though.
     
  4. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    Of course it was inevitable that I would miss an important lie in this list, but this next one is another big one, and it really deserves to be listed, so without further ado here is number 11 on the top ten list...

    11. "The game is going to die if something is done about cheating." This is another one I've read in many forms, many times on this forum and elsewhere. "If all the cheaters are banned, no one will be left playing the game!" This really is just another version of lie number 2. "If no one can cheat, no one will want to play the game anymore."

    The simple truth is that games where cheating is under control, and cheaters are dealt with effectively, do better and attract more clients, while games with an out of control cheating problem, do worse, and drive clients away.

    How many people stopped playing Diablo II, or refused to buy it in the first place because of the problems that game had with cheating? And the same can be said for UO. Only it is worse with UO because it is a subscription based game, and when a subscription is cancelled, EA loses money.

    I can guarantee you that far more have left the game because of cheating than have stayed, or picked up the game because they could cheat. And in fact I would say the number of people who have maintained their subscription specifically because they could cheat, or have opened a subscription specifically because they could cheat is minuscule compared to the number that have cancelled their subscriptions specifically because of cheating, or have refused to purchase the game in the first place specifically because of the problems UO has with cheating.

    And I can also guarantee you that those who have opened a subscription, or maintained a subscription specifically because they could cheat, have done far more damage, and cost EA far more money, than they have payed in subscription fees - and we are likely talking six figure multiples here.

    When you examine it the lie is so obvious it goes beyond being ridiculous.
     
  5. DarkVoid

    DarkVoid Guest

    A very nice post indeed. Now name 10 things in the game which are legal for players to do but some (mostly inexperienced) players think are forms of cheating.

    I can think of one off the top of my head. Using an allowed 3rd party program, such as UOAssist in conjunction with the 2D client in order to improve one's efficiency when hunting for resources, like lumber, ore, or leather. A lot of new players don't think it's actually legal to use UOAssist to gather resources, but the fact is it's perfectly legal, and UOAssist is on the list of allowed applications.

    Certain other 3rd party programs are also allowed, only a program which offers an unfair advantage is illegal, EG any speedhacking programs are considered illegal and these if detected will get your account suspended for TOS violations. I'm not naming any because they are illegal to name here and those that use them will eventually be caught and banned.
     
  6. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2004
    Messages:
    9,644
    Likes Received:
    831
    Hehe but given the list, I think you also need to consider another viewpoint to add to the list, the varying degrees of "cheating." Like for example, if you can't figure out how to do a quest, and you search for help, that's "cheating." Not the same cheating as a speedhack, and a speedhack isn't the same as a script, and a script isn't the same as duping.

    But I mean hell, in UO, if you kill something that can't walk to you, you're "cheating." My archers and mages are consistent liars, I think ;p.
     
  7. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    There's no question, it's isn't a fully black and white issue, nothing ever is, but there are actions that are clearly cheating and others that are clearly not. In between lies the grey area where we all make our choices and our compromises, and live with ourselves and the consequences, if there are any.

    I tend to go just under 10km/h over the speed limit wherever I go. I'm almost religious about it. But of course technically I'm breaking the law. However, I've never received a ticket for it, or even been stopped, and I don't think I ever will, and I don't have any problems sleeping at night as a result of it either. None of us are perfect. That is the reason why the lie, "Everyone is doing it" is so powerful. There is some truth to it. But that doesn't make it any less a lie, it only makes it a more persuasive lie.
     
  8. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582
    All this is fine and dandy but it doesn't matter because I won UO.
     
  9. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    I realize you are probably joking, but I'll bite anyway.

    How do you know you "won"? Did you learn anything useful? Did you make any meaningful friendships? Are you the richest player in the game? Have you experienced everything the game has to offer? If you got where you are in game by cheating, did you "win", or was it your cheat that "won".

    Can you put this on a resume? Will your husband or wife be impressed by what you've done? Or if you don't have a significant other, will the next attractive and available person you meet be impressed by your accomplishments? Were you entertained? Would you have been more or less entertained if you had played the game honestly?

    And here's a big one. Are you bored with the game now? Most cheaters will answer "yes" to that question. And there is a really good chance that the cheating has an awful lot to do with the reason why they are bored. Amazing how when you suck all the challenge out of something it becomes much less fun, and suddenly, you are bored.

    So if you sucked all the challenge out of the game by cheating so that it is now boring for you, did you really "win" the game? Did you really experience all that the game has to offer?
     
  10. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    6,107
    Likes Received:
    92
    Wow. Simply Spot The Hell On.

    Very nice.

    :)
     
  11. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2004
    Messages:
    9,644
    Likes Received:
    831
    noooo :) all my years, wasted ;P...

    well, I think I won uo when my guild got two mystic books in one stygian :) haha (my own personal, recent, uo win, at least; my friend who won the other book, he has had a kick-ass uo win year)
     
  12. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    2,416
    Likes Received:
    397
    I'm the same in MPH. What kind of world would it be if at +5 spikes came out of the road flatting tires? Better yet a camera shoots a photo of your lawlessness and mails you a ticket to pay. This the way UO needs to go. Get caught in a DUH HUH your monthly goes up for that account. The extra funds could go to a team hunting down the accounts the junk accounts support with a bigger monthly boost. And the cherry on the top is the videos here to be viewed like a stratics version of stupid plp.
     
  13. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    I think there's another one in there..

    "I pay the same as you, and I will enjoy the game the way I want to".
     
  14. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    I'll correct that...

    People who usually use this sort of line, often claim to pay more than the rest of us, then threaten to close their 57 accounts immediately.
     
  15. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582
    LoL, I'll give a reply a try, but it was just a joke:

    Sandbox, so you can't win. There are lots of social things one can learn from playing a game like this, most likely that you cannot trust people like you might have thought you could have. Many times I have seen or heard of people getting ripped just because it could be done(see pac rares for a good example). I've made a good number of freindships in this game, most have gone for other games and since I am still here all these years later its a smaller circle then once before. Am far from the richest player but I'm wealthy and do not go for want. I don't know if I've done it all, I can recall back in 99 cybering seemed rampant but I never ventured....I don't know if what I might or might not have done is cheating but I do take certain liberties with the game.

    I'm not bored with the game. I do wish there was more players around and I don't think that is a direct reflection upon the cheating like alot of playes indicate. I am of the belief that poor thought process from the Dev team(s) have had a larger impact in the mass migration of players. Look around the expansions and you will see that they have been limited events at best. SA is only slightly more full simply due to the resources, I'd would be surprised if its ever as empty as the Sam lands are but it will get close I bet.

    From what I understand UO is a better game than most others around but the poor forward looking expansions have done damage. SA is a good attempt and further expansions that do have needed resources or content that does not get dull will be the greatest asset to player retention then any 3rd party detection.

    This all said Speeding is the biggest issue, scripting is minor and should be allowed. If your at the keyboard and watching then let it go, miners and such take the risk of a banning. Yet I am just a little pvper and this is my thoughts.
     
  16. retrorider

    retrorider Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    Great thread. Good job, Llewen.

    The only addition I would make would be for lie 1. I would make it, "I deserve/want this."

    Most of the cheaters I run into merely "want" and that is reason enough for them to ignore the rules. They never actually have to get deep enough into it to have to justify cheating, they just do it because they want to.
     
  17. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    6,641
    Likes Received:
    1,163
    Good post.

    I'd like to submit that even more destructive than the lies they tell themselves are the lies they try to convince the rest of us of.

    They succeed far too often. Cheaters accuse everyone else of cheating and they say it so often that it's believed, or at least tolerated.

    -Galen's player
     
  18. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,442
    Likes Received:
    323
    May I just say this is an excellent post.

    Sadly, you're preaching to the choir, and the altar boys will still be outside clubbing old ladies over the head in the name of sainthood...

    But preach on!
     
  19. Bobar

    Bobar Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,043
    Likes Received:
    577
    You do realise of course that as lying is an inherent part of cheating (See number 7 in the OP) the results of the poll would be totally meaningless?
     
  20. ChReuter

    ChReuter Guest

    Back in like 98ish I was in a guild on Atl called TheMercs. A lot of the members were very active cheaters. You name it, the guild did it, house break-ins, duping, skill exploits. Anyways, what I am getting at is that I never heard most of em give excuses such as those. I think at least in that guild, they did it and knew it was wrong but just didnt care. There was no real denial, they just cheated.

    (Although I did know a GM who cheated. Our guild got some "items" from him. Later I think he got fired for Pking folks with the god client and selling castle deeds on ebay. It's been yrs and I dunno if I can name him)
     
  21. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    709
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Top Ten Lies Trammies/Bad PvPers Tell Themselves​


    1. I enjoy sitting in the abyss killing the same three monsters for hours on end receiving little reward for my efforts.

    2. I enjoy training all of my skills by hand, even if it is the fifth time I've trained this skill since I started playing.

    3. I don't PvP because I'll never be good at it.

    4. The only reason I lose is because of "scriptors" and hackers.

    5. Downloading and running a 9MB program in one minute effectively equalizing the playing field will make me no better than the "scriptors" and hackers, so instead I'll outrage against it and receive a terrific sense of pride in my "legit PvP".
    5.5. Once they ban these third party programs I'll suddenly become good at PvP and they will become bad.​

    6. I don't benefit at all from "scriptors".

    6.5. The IDOC's I benefit from are just really rich people who quit.​

    6.75. All of the gold I buy online is from legitimate broker services.​

    7. The real reason I don't PvP is because it isn't as much fun as hunting monsters with the AI equivalent of your opponent in Pong.

    8. I don't care if I get a rare drop I just do it for the thrill of PvM.

    9. If I pinged the same as you did I'd crush you in a duel or on the field.

    10. If I knew how to write scripts that could save me tons of time and make my experience in UO better I wouldn't.

    Look I can make ridiculously long and pointless lists too...
     
  22. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    I'm with you most of the way, although you have probably been more "successful" than I have, whatever that means. I never have enough gold/resources/time etc. But that's ok, I have fun. The only thing I would disagree with is that I think scripting is a far bigger problem than speeding - scripting in every aspect of the game. But I already posted a thread about that that started a commotion a few months ago, so if you want to continue that discussion, you could look that thread up.

    I think somewhere underlying that attitude is the lie, "It's only a game." Unless of course they truly are criminals and they are as likely to commit crime "irl" as they are in game. In that case, well, "Live by the sword, die by the sword." Most criminals meet with unpleasant ends, and the best the developers of an online game can do with people like that is catch them and ban them...
     
  23. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    It's pretty clear which side of the wall you've camped on. Let's hope you are gone soon. You are bad for the game, and your attitude is bad for the game, and you are a bad example to children everywhere, not to mention annoying... :gee:
     
  24. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582
    Success just means that I managed to get more items that other people wanted to buy, is there really a value in items I don't want that get converted into gold I don't need?

    The game has nearly made the average player need a local scripter just to compete. Who else has the time to chop random trees for specific wood or random ore spots? Granted these were fixes for the scripter in the first place but the fix was worse for the game than the problem in the first place.

    I understand the EC will allow a person to macro some production like making pots but when I transfer a char to make a beachhead I want to bring 5K of each pot and this gives two options being make them or buy them, both of which might have a element of scripting.

    IMO everyone could(should?) run some type of script to assist but the speeding is different. It allows a person to enter into a relm of combat but ditch when getting whooped at a rate nearly unmatched. Not cool.
     
  25. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    6,641
    Likes Received:
    1,163
    His post was useful in a variety of ways.

    1. He proved several of the original poster's points beautifully.

    2. Note the title of his post. It's not top 10 lies of non-cheaters; it's the top 10 lies of "Bad PvPers" and "Trammies." By his own clear implication, thus those 2 groups are the non-cheaters, and the opposite 2 groups, "Good" PvPers and Fellies, are the cheaters.

    3. He makes no pretense whatsoever to not cheating himself.

    I'm very glad he wrote that post.

    -Galen's player
     
  26. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Premium Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    7,469
    Likes Received:
    361
    :):)
     
  27. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Premium Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    7,469
    Likes Received:
    361
    spot on!
     
  28. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Funny how you take this and replace it with your own lies and fallacies.

    Either way, it draws out of the woodwork the true destructive UO players, the real bane of the game. The people who wants to destroy and change to suit their myopic vision. I am sorry, you draw in people who are much worse than scripters ever will be. And hell, the game would be much better if that tiny handful of people would just be banned or quit the game, and leave it to the rest of the people who actually love the game and care for the game.
     
  29. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    That statement is such deranged insanity I can only shake my head at you. Speeding KILLS people, speeding destroy real lives, speeding maims people, speeding destroy real property and take away real resources from us. To even begin to say that scripting is a bigger problem is speeding is ludicrous at best.

    And I hope one day you get to feel how it is to lose someone to some prick who was speeding.

    Its funny to see that you claim to be legit and that cheating leads to moral decay, yet its your RL moral thats decayed.
     
  30. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    875
    Likes Received:
    0
    Great post, sums it up quite well!! :gun:

    I took the liberty of adding a couple of details I believe should be mentioned. :eek:

    1. "I deserve this." I wanted to add that the cheater feels they have earned a sort of special right in particular which I find has several quite sad implications for that person as far as competition is concerned.

    2. "Everyone is doing it." Allow me to add that if most people stopped doing it, some would still cheat. That's how it started really, by a few players feeling the need to be UO's elite. Not convincing when brought up.. At all. This comes from someone who felt forced to cheat, but eventually preferred to just quit the game.

    3. "I have to cheat to compete." I would like to add that some people who will claim this are really good even without cheating but they are not content with just being among the best. They want to be THE best. See 1.

    4. "I'm just levelling the playing field." Perhaps not just trying to win, but to make an impact with each victory, promoting their self-image within the game, going on a power-trip.

    5. "It's just a game!" I feel I need to add that there are very few and very specific occassions one could ever use this arguement and cheating indeed is not one of them.

    7. "I'm not really cheating." Playing the semantics game, basing arguements on 3rd Party software functions being right on the thin red line between cheating and improving system performance or taking advantage of holes in the TOS and such still is cheating indeed.

    You have left out 2 very common and recent lies about cheating; Firstly, "At this point, stopping the cheating would do more harm than good." and then "The effort to detect cheating will have an impact on players' personal information.". I assume there is no need for anyone to bother explaining how false these two arguements are though, just considered it important that they are mentioned. :p
     
  31. ChReuter

    ChReuter Guest

    I like most of what I see you write, but sometimes man, You're just delusional. Sorry, but your reply was not spot on, it was rubbish.

    Note: I am in no way saying I support cheating or cheat myself. (As by some peoples logic, my post is admitting guilt.)
     
  32. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    875
    Likes Received:
    0
    @Lord Chaos
    I am quite positive "speeding" referred to speed-hacking, without even needing to look up the reply you quote. At least I hope so. :grouphug:

    Oh and here's something cheaters that resort to 1 and 10 of those excuses need to take very seriously I think : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PsnxDQvQpw Hahahaha ;D
     
  33. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    In one of his starting posts he was describing that he was a person who did speeding in RL, so I am assuming he's referring to RL speeding. Besides never heard Speed hacking referred to as speeding.
     
  34. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 27, 2008
    Messages:
    875
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's more convenient to call it "speeding" and almost everyone on my Vent do but that's not the point..

    Lame. :( I myself have lost a brother to a bike accident some years ago.. But the poster was probably only trying to make a point, not really offend anyone. :grouphug:
     
  35. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582
    Nearly 9K posts and you have missed this? Do you read or just post?
     
  36. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    709
    Likes Received:
    0
    With regard to your response...

    I find it hilarious how as soon as somebody disagrees with ANY thread, their argument is immediately thrown out and not even taken into consideration. Instead, you blatantly fabricate what was said to suit your own needs, and speculatively form some ridiculous fallacy that in no way reflects the opinion of the person who posted.

    Point in case:

    Secondly, note how not one single person replying to my statement has offered even a shred of a counter-argument, instead we find statements that I would consider the equivalent of a thirteen-year-old author:

    I hope this poster realizes that not one thing contained within that post is backed up with even a shred of supporting evidence. I apologize if not being able to construct a reasonable argument against my post annoys you. Apparently, though, my opinion about a 13 year old game presents a "bad example for children everywhere". I'm sure that if you become (or currently are) a parent you will teach your child to do anything necessary to get his or her way regardless of whether or not you have to make up fallacies, downright lie, or fabricate evidence which is clearly shown here:

    You honestly just wrapped my statement in quote tags conveniently leaving out the last word...I'll let you guys wonder about what other types of people do this all the time.

    I realize now that there is absolutely no purpose in posting on these forums. The only people that reply are the same 5-10 who feel like they have been wronged in some way because this person has more gold than them or that person killed me 1v1 or that guy is superior to me in every aspect of UO...how can this be? The fact of the matter is your all a bunch of whiny crybabies who are too stubborn to adapt to the game. I can't begin to fathom how much time you've wasted posting on these forums about hacks this and hacks that when in reality, the only real "hack" (which isn't even a hack by the by) is a simple over-clocking program that you could have downloaded and started using in 30 seconds.

    The underlying truth here is that you all enjoy having something to complain about. Since AOS was released, UO has done nothing but make PvP more accessible to the average player, and yet here you are complaining about a 9MB program.

    People complained that UO was too item-based: they came out with faction items.

    People STILL complained that UO was too item-based: they came out with imbuing.

    People complained that dexxers could not compete with mages: mages have been, and continue to be nerfed for 5 years straight now. I've played a mage since I started playing UO six years ago and have watched them nerf the only skill-based template in UO ever since, and yet you don't see me starting ridiculous threads and babbling on and on about how I want UO to be made MY way, and if you don't I'm going to continue babbling until you finally can't stand it anymore...and still don't.
     
  37. Babble

    Babble Guest

    How about the one I cheat to make real life cash out of a game.
    :)
     
  38. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,572
    Likes Received:
    1,836
    I think we all need to step back and look at the fundamental reasons why people cheat, not only in game but in real life. I mean seriously LS Jax LS can spout off

    All he wants but it's still an unapproved 3rd party program that modifies the clients data stream (By accelerating its I/O cycles) and there fore a cheat.

    Why do people cheat, simply because it allows them to obtain power, how often do you here people say "Tamers are too powerful, or the Sampire Template is more powerful than most others for PvM. The simple truth is that scripting and using speed hacks (yes they aren't really hacks but still are cheats), are doing so to obtain power and position either in game by having more economic freedom, rapid character builds, or better survivability than the players they are competing with.

    The issue though with cheating isn't so simple as saying "They are Cheating" it's about balance and fairness towards those that don't and won't use cheat programs to either actually make or to allow them to perceive their characters as more powerful.

    And yes how you act in something as simple as a Game does make a grand statement about your conduct in your real life outside of it. Let me leave you with an often misquoted or partially quoted little statement and observation from one John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton:

    Find me an example of a Historically Famous figure that was not corrupt in some aspect, I'll do my best to prove you wrong, then compare yourself and your life to theirs do you think your own Great and Glorious Light is even a flicker in the shadow of theirs. Is it simply worth it to be dishonest in something as trivial as a game, when it could be planting the seed of corruption in your own mind?


    ***** On and Off Note****

    Does anyone know the 3 most common lies told in Texas?
     
  39. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    709
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's funny...all this time i thought MMORPG stood for massively multiplayer online ROLE PLAYING GAME. Again, you conveniently avoided everything I said and went on some pointless rant about power in a video game...
     
  40. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't know, some of the very best people I've ever known are cheaters and some of the worst assholes I've ever met are anti-cheaters.

    So don't know if that slippery slope even hold water.

    Heck, some of the event creators, best and most fun guilds and other great people on my shard cheat.
     
  41. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,572
    Likes Received:
    1,836
    So you are saying the resource scripters are RPing wrecking the game economy? They are RPing destroying even further player to player interactions? They are RPing when someone is running a healer script that pops off a cure pot as soon as they get poisoned or they are sitting AFK some where farming gold? That's Role Playing.... Good Lord I'd like to get you in a group for a Table Top RPG session... you wouldn't live past 1st level...
     
  42. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,572
    Likes Received:
    1,836
    I've seen that too, thought they were OK folks until guild mates starting having their accounts hacked... I don't fully trust anyone that relies on cheats in a game, not in the game or in real life. If they can't be honest with themselves how can they be completely honest with you?
     
  43. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    709
    Likes Received:
    0
    WHAT economy? Devs have effectively destroyed any sort of economy that existed prior to Stygian Abyss. Imbuing is UO-style communism where everyone gets to be equal. As I stated in an equally ridiculous thread just a day ago, what is the difference whether or not someone is physically at their computer farming or having a script do it? It in no way effects you differently in either case. Again, your just another person who can't stand to see someone getting ahead when your not.

    I forgot to mention the whole cure pot thing..

    Running a script to chug cure pots and doing it manually will in no way help you survive unless you are incapable of pressing a button...people who don't know PvP should NOT ever comment on it.
     
  44. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,572
    Likes Received:
    1,836
    Really? You sure about that?

    Me I'm perfectly happy with what I have in the game, I have a Keep, a house in Luna, items I want, enough gold to keep all my junk insured, I don't really need much else. Sure there are things I'd like to have, but nothing that would drive me to run a script to put me in a better position to obtain them.... What I have I obtain fair and square, none of my houses were bought from other players I placed them. None of the items I sell on my vendors were obtained by me through "Questionable" means I traded, or obtained them perfectly legally. So no, I'd say I'm way ahead of alot of folks.....
     
  45. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend GoT

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2003
    Messages:
    3,629
    Likes Received:
    1,392
    Those of you whose hands are hurting from patting each other on the back for not cheating...try Ibuprofen. Tylenol can wreck your liver over time.:stretcher:
     
  46. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582
    The economy died in this game many years ago when the dev team did not forsee inflation due to no gold sinks, scripting had little to do with this.

    And you all can stop crying because I told you already, I won this game.
     
  47. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are assuming that cheating = dishonesty and not cheating = honesty. That non-cheaters don't lie or even steal.

    If someone got hacked, it might simply be them being a little to careless with their login information or falling victim to the numerous keyloggers.
     
  48. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then how about you just being satisfied with that, instead of trying to meddle with the game as it is?
     
  49. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    I missed another important one:

    12. "I'm not hurting anyone." In one form this is just a version of, "It's just a game", but there's a lot more to it than that. When you cheat you teach your children, or the children of other people that rules aren't important, and if you get away with it, you teach them that there are no consequences to breaking the rules. You may be able to separate what you are doing in game from what happens in your "real life", but I can assure you, children do not easily make that distinction. Cheating distorts the economy of an MMO and devalues the game play of honest clients. Cheating drives honest clients away in many ways, one of those ways is the frustration of consistently losing in pvp to a cheater.

    And one of the most damaging effects of an out of control cheating problem is false accusations. In a situation where there is an out of control cheating problem it becomes very hard to tell the cheaters from the honest players, and anyone who is successful is automatically the object of suspicion. This is another way that cheating devalues the game play of honest clients.
     
  50. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.