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The truth about Gold in Uo..

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Gunsmoke, May 10, 2015.

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  1. Gunsmoke

    Gunsmoke Adventurer

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    The question is ask, " if controlling gold means controlling uo"? this can go in so many ways, but in my opinion i think the answer is no. When the uo was created it was meant for interaction with other players with a mass amount of people who would group up and take on creatures to get loot, not necessary for the gold but for items. Yes if u collect alot of gold u where able to buy harder items but that wasnt need to much. throughout the years of uo stuck with point of sticking to making better dungeons, monsters and areas to explore with your friends for getting items (not gold) to trade and or for personal use.

    lets expose the elephant in the room .... yes there where alot of dupes along the way that made it difficult for uo to keep on the same tract. i do remember in videos that involved "Uo Workers" about doing some events which made the people that had alot of gold use it to get what they wanted but wasnt in there intension to control the gold.

    If your one of those people that have ALOT of gold and saying uo is boring because of it then your missing the point of the game. i can say throughout of 15 years of playing ive gone through so many friends that gold turned them into greed then evil. Lately ive noticed new players and old playing coming back which is very kwel. i believe there is alot of uo still undiscovered and ive seen alot. Guess what im tring to say is that the right friends make uo and not the gold.

    in closing..... Bonnie Armstrong even said it herself, items are priced by players and cannot be controlled by us.
     
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  2. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Until UO comes up with GOOD ideas for gold sinks then gold will stay in the game. Gold sinks need to be for every level of player, from the not so rich to the ultra rich.
     
  3. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    Soon it has been said by Mesanna at countless Meet & Greets that ether with or around the new expantion will be the gold linked to account feature.
    This will let any members of that account on that shard have access to the total gold that account has in total**banked** on that shard*.
    * The Gold will be allowed to cross to other shards but method is not clear at this time.*
    This will be from 0$ to infinity.
    Eliminating the need for atm vendors.
    With the plus *example* Bob the low man on the totem pole will be able to spend what George o'The Jungle made last night with no problems.
    Prices have a way of flux that even astounds the Dev.
    One day its 5k the next its 100k etc... This is a market thing not something the dev can help.
    Every time a gold sink has been used, the under belly of UO finds a way to exploit it.
    When you can control your greed... then come talk to me.
    Its nearly hardwired into people these days for super greed....
    This is a game not a world country.....
     
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  4. Thrakkar

    Thrakkar Slightly Crazed
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    While a gold sink is absolutely essential for a working economy, it is pointless to add one, as long as you can create gold with duping & scripting.
     
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  5. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    There will always be gold farmers and there is very little you can do about that, but duping of anything, not just gold, needs to be fixed. Doing away with gold checks is a move in the right direction and it will open up much needed bank space. Hope they have it worked out soon.
     
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  6. Thrakkar

    Thrakkar Slightly Crazed
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    As long as the gold farming happens attended with a human actually playing, I'm perfectly fine with it. It usually becomes a problem, as soon as it is scripted and runs 24/7.
    I agreed about the duping. I honestly don't know, why they stiull haven't fixed it. At least I can't imagine, that the effort is that high, that it wouldn't outweight the benefit...
    Checks as well, the sooner, the better. But at least that is already in the pipeline/in development.
     
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  7. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    i hate that it takes up all your space..

    when you turn your gold into the banker it should take the checks and make it a number on your account.. picking up, withdrawing gold and making checks should work the same way tho, that way you can still buy stuff from other people.
     
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  8. Scribbles

    Scribbles Babbling Loonie
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    As much as I am a huge fan of going to Gold per account and abolishing pointless checks... Ive never seen the current staff implement anything with out flaws... I have a feeling we may be dealing with a "fight club" scenario soon enough. :)
     
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  9. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    It sounds like you consider that a problem. Any sizable economy will necessarily be something baffling to would-be central planners, and that's a good thing. UO would be no different than any medium-sized town, with people flocking to a central bazaar (Atlantic), while those on the outskirts who lack transportation (transfer tokens) find it more difficult to participate in the riches.

    You point to "greed," but any economy depends on a medium of exchange, whether gold or dollars, and the incentive for people to trade between themselves. If all someone wants to be is a Silas Marner or Harry Potter, as long as he's playing honestly in acquiring these supposed pixels, who are you or anyone else to call that playstyle wrong? The problem with the UO economy isn't "greed" in and of itself. The problem isn't even that the gods drop items from the sky (which themselves aren't prized by everyone who seeks them, but because the acquisition is a gateway to a small fortune). The problem is the duping, as Frodo and I and others have continually stressed (and which certain people still deny exists!). Duping affects everyone who isn't a hermit, because it pushes more and more people into acquiring high-value items as a way of keeping up.
     
    #9 The Zog historian, May 10, 2015
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
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  10. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    This is my fear also, that it will be rushed and all hell will break lose. If they roll this out on TC how are they going to test shard xfer to make sure you can take some gold with you.
     
  11. virtualhabitat

    virtualhabitat Lore Keeper
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    People would be happier if they stopped paying attention to what and how much their neighbor has.

    It's no one's business what I do with my gold or how much I have or don't have. I am sick of people declaring that somebody else has too much gold. Really? Are you like 5 years old? Why not just say what you really mean, to wit: "if I can't have it then no one else should have it either."
     
  12. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    Until the Devs decide to do something to control the ludicrous prices those who want more, more, more, & more gold put on items on vendors, all the gold is a problem for the game. Those who can't spend 20/7 ( or 24/7 in the case of scripters) are seriously handicapped by such prices. High end items needed for PvP & PvM can't be purchased by those to work for a living, go to school, or have a family who would like to see them away from the computer for a few hours a few times a month, which means they can't live in game to kill the 470,866 dragons needed to farm the gold so they can pay those prices. Putting in 17 years of play like people who played UO from day one did isn't something new players or returning players should have to do to take part in serious PvP, PvM. The greed has gotten far out of hand.

    The Devs need to restrain vendor prices or jack up the vendor fees a lot, say an additional 1 or 2 percent for every number in the price past six. Let players have seventy trillion, trillion, mega-gazillion gold in the bank with the new system for all I care, but the King of Britannia should take a bigger cut if you get ridiculous with your prices to encourage some restraint on sellers. They need to make crazy prices become a serious gold sink using vendors after the prices get past six digits.
     
  13. Lady CaT

    Lady CaT Seasoned Veteran
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    I'm curious to how anyone even knows how much gold someone else has truly acquired? Its not like anyone can look into your account to see it. Gold is actually pointless if you ask me. Nor is gold really necessary to play UO. I've been playing since the game started and could careless about gold. In my opinion you can play the game without ever using it at all. Nor do you need to ever conduct a single vendor transaction to get the items you need. What a player really needs is skill. If you can craft anything you don't need a single vendor (player or npc). I'll make my own equipment and tame my own mount thank you. And because I can make my own elite equipment....I can get my own artifacts, power scrolls, and event items quite easily. So I don't really care how much gold anyone has nor do I care what items they have hoarded away in boxes in a house I'll probably never visit. So other peoples gold and items have absolutely no effect on how I play my game or what I've accumulated. And to be honest you probably don't care what I have either!

    As a new player I wouldn't even need the 1000gp, I'll just take the starting dagger!
     
    #13 Lady CaT, May 10, 2015
    Last edited: May 10, 2015
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  14. Lady CaT

    Lady CaT Seasoned Veteran
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    No but they can be found while training up your characters fighting skills for serious PvP and PvM. And it doesn't take 17 years to make a legendary tailor or smith to make your own elite gear. That only takes a couple days. And with advanced character tokens for those with no time to train, it might not even take that long!
     
    #14 Lady CaT, May 10, 2015
    Last edited: May 10, 2015
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  15. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Only essential to keep inflation in check, not have a working economy. :)
     
  16. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    That's true, and for all people want to say that UO is only a game, many MMORPG economies including UO's work under the same principle that real world economies do. It's why most countries limit the amount of currency they have in circulation, and why they are so adamant about stopping counterfeiting. It's only by doing both that some semblance of stability can be achieved.

    Granted for UO it really is too late to put in a real cap, I wouldn't mind one, but that ship sailed nearly 17 years ago. For all that UO did well there were and are many things that at the time simply could not be foreseen. Everyone talks about gold sinks in UO, but they do not and never have worked because they are optional, if more sinks were mandatory it would help, but that could mean something as devastating in the eyes of the player base as removing direct player to player trade for anything other than houses and pets, requiring vendors, to instituting actual taxation or upkeep on Homes and Bank boxes based on a percentage of the value of the contents of them.
     
  17. Merlin

    Merlin The Enchanter
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    Developer imposed "price controls" would be completely unacceptable. I couldn't disagree more. Who are a select few individuals to say what items should or shouldn't be priced at? Supply and demand, as with anything else, should dictate prices.

    I am all about creating some more gold sinks in the game, and I can see making vendor costs a bit higher for items priced at 100M or higher... but certainly not anything bigger than six figures, as you suggest. In example, I got a small soul forge from MaNerva's scalis runs this morning. This item typically goes for anywhere between 100M to 140M. Are you suggesting that developers come in and put a price cap on this, just because some individuals might not have enough time to earn that much?

    "The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA." - Gordon Gekko

    Quote from Wall Street applies to UO. Competition for the best items makes this game thrive. Everything should not be cheap and available for just anyone. New players shouldn't be able to afford the best stuff as soon as they get in the game, which seemed to be the point of the last thread about gold. This game's economy is one of the most intriguing aspects of what keeps some folks, like myself, coming back. Some of us enjoy bartering, trading and earning enough to get those elite items. Makes it more rewarding when you finally get them.
     
  18. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
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    I wonder what would happen if Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were limited to only 1 billion gold-- err dollars...
     
  19. King Greg

    King Greg Seasoned Veteran

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    Looting gold is by far the slowest method to make gold in the game, no one in their right mind, even 24/7 would be just farming straight gold off monsters. Think about how long it takes you to do something and look at the rewards. Then weigh those rewards vs the time. Even farming just leather off dragons is more profitable than looting the gold. Killing Brown bears in fel for regular leather is probably more profitable than killing dragons per hour. OH wait, this is a game... We are supposed to be playing for fun! Telling me I can't do whatever I want in the game and be a billionare!? I demand the dev's fix this immediately.
     
  20. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    It is not up to the Devs to set prices on our items in UO, it is up to the player base. Now the Devs can help by giving the player base things to buy to help get rid of some of the gold in UO. As long as people have gold to spend then they will pay the high prices for items. Gold wipes or gold reductions or what ever some people come up with is totally not going to happen because if you piss enough players off then the Devs are out of a job because EA shut UO down. I would love to be able to remodel the inside of my castle, I know that would require a Dev to help, and change the stone.
     
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  21. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Honestly I doubt they would care all that much. They would probably give the rest to charity.
     
  22. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    This always confused me too. I never got why the measuring stick for people earning was the gold on monsters.
     
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  23. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    No need for a cap, or forced sinks. A currency conversion is all thats needed, if that.
     
  24. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Devs don't need to control prices or tax vendors. There are 100 better and faster ways to make gold than dragging goldpiles off monster corpses. The are no necessary high end items, especially for pvm. Pvp more, but you can do fine with non ubers. Prices are relative, rare items will always cost top dollar, as well they should.

    Pardon my truncated post, but i hate making long posts on tablet, heh
     
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  25. azmodanb

    azmodanb Grand Poobah
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    No one needs 100m suit parts.

    My samp runs parts crafted and looted.. And can stand toe to toe with most of the spawn and bosses in the game solo.

    I sell parts on vendor for 50k that last year would have been worth mills... Just to get rid of em... Instead of turning them to relic frags.

    You can do a vendor search and make a suit these days maxed on resist and lmc and great gens .. And stats.. For a few mill. Or start with a crafted suit and replace parts as you go. While getting gold and mats..

    I moved to atl from baja a couple years ago.. With nothing and started out with a starter suit and slowly replaced parts and now have more gold then i need.

    People its a game. Its something you play and work on.

    No one needs a luna house or a castle.. Or the newest shiney dropped at an event. Those are luxury items. My first house on atl was not max storage. Now i sell houses to others because i find and place and sell more then i can hold. Without even hunting for em.. Just.coming across one here and there.

    Again noone needs gold ... Farm a tangle. Farm a suit part. Takes time but that's called playing a game.

    If ur looking for a game with no grind play sims and put.in a cheat code for gold.

    Just like life.. Games are work.. Work for what you got. If you don't want to well then buy gold. Or collect welfare.
     
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  26. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Yup. I feel like people either need to learn how to make gold/suits better, which seems odd to me because both are really pretty simple. I mean I do pretty well with what would be considered a pretty crap suit on a prodo shard. Just a basic imbued suit (no apron, boots, sashes, talismans or any of that stuff) and the best shield I have on hand, on a sub standard template can do pretty much everything. I can't solo bosses (I think I could though if I worked at it) but I could absolutely duo them. All I would need to do a boss is someone to help me kill some spawns/toss the occasional heal/res.
     
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  27. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    A conversion fixes nothing. 100 gold = 10 whatever You will still have to farm the same because the whatever is less now on the monsters. Barbed Lits = 2.5M = X amount of monsters to get that much, now Barbed Kit costs 250K what ever you will still need to farm the same X amount of monsters. CONVERSIONS DO NOT FIX ANYTHING.
     
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  28. railshot

    railshot Journeyman
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    No, it's more like people who spend 20/7 in the game are rewarded more than those who play casually. As it should be.
    High end items should be a reward for high end effort. Not something that everyone with a sub gets.
    No, all this will do is kill an already half-dead in-game market and push what's left of it to the internet.

    Ultimately, there is no good way to battle inflation in an item based, top heavy game. The good news is that it's a minor issue since the prices of anything you sell are inflated as well.
     
  29. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Actually conversions fix the only problems that are caused by inflation in an imaginary economy: It looks bad, and if currency is physical it's hard to move around.

    INFLATION ISN'T A PRACTICAL PROBLEM. PEOPLE JUST THINK IT IS BECAUSE IT LOOKS BAD.
     
  30. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    Likely live as lavishly as they do now noticing no change in their lifestyle other than a smaller bottom line number on their accountants reports. After some point more money in the bank doesn't have any effect on your lifestyle.
     
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  31. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    The relative value of items within UO remains fairly constant unless duping artificially inflates the quantity of a rare item. Laws of supply and demand see to that. Gold, in and if it self, has no real value, it is just the measuring stick by which the value of the other items is measured.

    That is why currency conversion is a very impractical solution... the ratio of gold available to price of xyz remains the same. Does gold need to be removed from circulation? Absolutely, but artificially scaling by a factor of 10 or 100, doesn't really change anything.

    Optional gold sinks are by far a better option.(IMO) Make them high gold and desirable, but that don't actually impact game play. Think new castle design layouts for 100 million. How many rich players with castles would shell out 100 million to change the layout of their castle? Lots!
     
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  32. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    It changes the appearance, which is part of problem with the perception people have that the economy is out of whack, as well as simply not looking right for a sword/sorcery setting.

    I think everyone wants optional goldsinks. Why would one be opposed?
     
  33. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Make desirable gold sinks at all levels, not just high gold. Just because you own a castle does not mean you are filthy rich. Yes some castle owners are filthy rich but almost all (IMHO) would love to remove/relocate some of the walls inside so there would have to be a way to do it without having to emptying it. And it needs to be a reasonable price to fit all of UO's players.
     
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  34. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    For people who claim not to care, about how people need to stop worrying about gold, ect... there sure are a lot of opinions on how others need to act.

    If most people had an idea of how much gold was in the game and the manipulations behind the scenes of a few to control prices, I am sure the complaining would be much louder.

    I'll say this. There have been a lot of scripts in UO over the years. Hypothetically, if someone could have as much gold as they wanted. They could pretty much set any price they wanted to on items. Just set a price on something, then buy up everything priced lower than that. Then sell your gold for cash. Making money out of nothing.

    Not so hypothetically, if you think this isn't going on, you are too naive.
     
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  35. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    You make this sound like there is a huge market out there for UO Gold and some people will do anything to make sure prices stay high and UO Gold is a way to become a millionair, UMMM UO Gold is selling for $.30 a Mil. Yep sure gonna get rich off that.
     
  36. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Last I checked, it was like $.40 a mil.

    Anyway- I am guessing sales are a bit more than you realize, even now. I know someone who has made their living on selling UO gold for about 12 years now. Even now, he makes more per month selling gold than I do from my job- (just for a point of comparison my house payment is ~$1700 a month).

    And yes, you can get rich off that. People have been making a living off selling UO gold since almost the beginning.
     
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  37. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    $1700 you would have to sell 4.25B in gold every month. Yea right.
     
  38. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    *shrug* you believe what you want.

    That is part of the problem, people can't accept what is really going on.
     
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  39. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Yes, you change the appearance... You give the appearance that the UO gods can come in and wipe out millions or billions of the gold you collect involuntary. IMO people have worked to collect the gold they have through farming, buying, and selling and if they are to part with it, it should be voluntarily.
     
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  40. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I think that's a tad paranoiac. Unlike real life there is only so much control a player can have over the marketplace, especially in an economy where there are no necessities, and where you cant use threat of violence to stop people from doing things, and where every item (excluding things like rares) is fully attainable by every person with just an application of effort.

    Yeah, but honestly once you get some capital going, a good merchant will put gold scripts to shame. As for the idea of some rich person controlling 100% of the market of an item, its just not possible, for the reasons I mentioned above. Players absolutely can have an effect on the prices, but they can't hold people hostage. Of course you don't need to to make an obscene amount of gold, but then again, this is true in ANY economic system. There will always be people who are skilled and dedicated merchants, and they will end up in the position of "uber rich" regardless of the
    There will also be cheaters, but I honestly don't think that kind of person is as emblematic of the UO economy as you think they are. Simply because the demand for UO gold just isn't very high. It only makes sense to me that the vast majority of people in UO who are uberwealthy are players who like the game, and like trading and making money, not people who play to pay the rent. That would just be so difficult to do.

    Are there people who spend a lot of time implicitly manipulating prices, of course, thats just the free market at work, but the idea that theres like some richy cabal controlling the whole economy... not only do I not buy that, I also don't think its really all that possible.
     
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  41. Lady CaT

    Lady CaT Seasoned Veteran
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    Still doesn't effect my game since I don't buy anything from vendors (player, npc or otherwise). Control all the prices you want it doesn't effect the items I collect while hunting, adventuring or doing EM events. You don't need gold at all to be successful in this game.
     
  42. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I'm not even going to deny the possibility of this (certainly much more believable 10 years ago) but the idea that if it is indeed happening that it's common? Yeah, don't buy that at all. Why not? Gathering a billion odd gold a month, every month would be a super super chore. And not only that... but I also don't believe that there are so many people out there buying UO gold that many people can sell many billions... every month. The sub rate is simply too low to sustain such a thing.

    I guess to me its like people who Mturk for a living. Yeah, it's technically possible, but you reallllly have to have a specific kind of character (and not many people are like this) to be able to deal with such tedium on a constant basis. I mean, christ... WHY? Get a regular job and save yourself the torment.

    Also, I have to ask how do you know this person is telling you the truth? Do you know them IRL, or are you just taking their word for it?
     
    #42 Uvtha, May 11, 2015
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
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  43. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    That's exactly one of the reasons that prices can really only be controlled to a limited extent. If the price is too high... it outweighs the laziness and people just go get the item they want themselves.
     
  44. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Of course they are aren't losing a thing. Wealth is exactly the same after a currency conversion as before.
     
  45. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    The difference is who the appearance pisses off. You advocate for a change in order to hopefully make the game appear more accessible for possible new players... At the expense of pissing off the existing ones. People are very attached to thier UO "property". Just the comments in the two current threads shows people don't want thier property taken. So how can you adjust the market without taking gold away... You have to find incentive for people to part with that gold in a way that it leaves the marketplace but provides something in return.
     
  46. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    They are "losing" their property within a few months either way with the conversion of gold into a number with the expansion, and honestly I don't think that many people are attached to gold piles/checks. In fact I think most people with a whole lot of 1m checks think they are a pain in the ass to move around, and will be thankful when they no longer take up bank space and lockdowns. Even those who covet their little yellow scrolls as items (which again... I don't think are common) would probably get over it when they realize how much simpler life is with them gone.

    The comments about not wanting their property taken were in regard to a gold cap, which actually would be taking players wealth, a currency conversion would not.

    Gold sinks are great, but really they don't work that well. No where near as well as they would have to work to weed all of that ungainly gold out of the system. Sinks unlike a conversion require a sacrifice of wealth, and regardless of how good a job you do making your sinks appealing, they simply wont appeal to people enough to take such massive numbers out of the game. It just won't happen.

    Don't get me wrong. I am 100% for a plethora of gold sinks to slow inflation, but that's all they are going to do. They won't reverse it... unless they are forced, and that of course is a horrible, horrible idea.
     
  47. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Take a look in the rares forum sometime at the threads that have been around for several months now started by a couple of individuals where they add on more items every couple of days as they obtain the newest EM drops. Total up the value of all the items any one of these individuals has offered for sale in just one thread. The totals are just mind-boggling and for one individual are far more than just one billion per month.
     
  48. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Yeah, EM items are where the billions get shuffled around pretty much. Of course you have to factor in what people probably paid for these items as well, so the overall profit is probably not as astronomical as it seems, unless they get them all themselves, which if it's random drop (which all the really rare and valuable things are) they clearly can't, and probably only get those items occasionally themselves when they get lucky.

    Like I said, I have no doubt that it happens. I have zero doubt that rares traders shuffle billions around in game all the time, I know it happens in fact. Selling gold IRL on the other hand is much harder for me to swallow. There aren't many people playing any more, and even small number of them are people who would be buying gold. I just don't think any number of people could consistently make as much money as is being claimed.

    Of course in the end, I really don't care if people sell/buy gold. It really only effects your game-play if you let it.
     
  49. Loriel

    Loriel Seasoned Veteran

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    I don't think its common I think its one or maybe two people and they are essentially criminals making a dishonest living in much the same way fraudsters do.
     
  50. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Ummm, ok, and this has anything to do with what I posted? Not, that I don't agree with you. 99% of the stuff I have, I have gotten myself.

    I've been over at his place while transactions have been taking place. And I've seen the records of a month here or there. Admittedly, the last I saw was about 2 years ago, when he showed me a 3 month stretch of sales. His way of bragging I guess...and laughing at people saying the game was dying. We had a falling out after that- not UO related and only talk every couple of months or so now.

    The things he's told be before have ended up being true. Don't see why he'd be lying now.
     
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