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(RP) The vexing question of states within a state.

Discussion in 'UO Europa' started by Bobar, Nov 9, 2011.

  1. Bobar

    Bobar Babbling Loonie
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    (The musings of Lord Sparrow)

    I am a staunch royalist. I am for a King (Queen), this I feel is the single thing which would do most to unify Sosaria and 'Unity is Strength'.

    However, until we do, a Lord Protector to control and lead our armed forces seems a useful stop gap. This is a military not a regal position.

    I would like to ask all prospective candidates for the position one question, namely, the next time one of the 'independant' cities or territories is attacked or invaded what action will you take?.

    My vote then goes to whoever answers that they would DO NOTHING.

    Gasp! Shock! Horror!. Do nothing? Well consider this.

    To summon Sosarias forces and repel the attackers is simply supporting the independant regime. The attack would fail and they would just continue in the same fashion. But why should citizens risk all to defend these regimes?. We have experience of this, remember the Ophidian invasion of Vesper? without aid from all citizens Vesper would have fallen.

    Perhaps we should have let it, after it had fallen and the leadership eliminated by the Ophids THEN we could have counter-attacked and reclaimed Vesper and integrated it once more in to the Kingdom of Sosaria.

    This would have been a harsh lesson indeed but would have brought home to Vesperians the truth of the maxim 'Together we stand, divided we fall'.

    Divisions within our country could be a fatal weakness and whereas a strong ruler could perhaps end them, at the moment they continue unabated. I hope whoever takes on the post is strong enough to make decisions, taking the long view, which would benefit Sosaria as a whole rather than short term gains.

    At the meeting concerning the elections tonight I found it amusing that someone commented that Nathan Hawke was not qualified for the post of Protector as he 'had blood on his hands'. Personally I thought that made him eminently suitable as it demonstrated willingness to get the job done by whatever means necessary, and to do it himself if he had to. Surely a prime virtue in a strong leader?.

    I shall watch the development of these elections with interest we do need some cohesive military leadership.
     
  2. Scrumpy Jack

    Scrumpy Jack Guest

    Ello yer royalist!

    I am all for yer King or Queen. Have yer seen what state the bridges in Trinsic are in lately. It's no fun anymore having yer home under one of those!

    Did I ever tell yer the story of when I was in Vesper and I met a Queen who happened to be just a bloke in a fancy dress? Anyway, 'tis a dull story ...

    Yers knightly
    Scrumpy Jack
     
  3. Bobar

    Bobar Babbling Loonie
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    Hi Scrumpy
    I've seen your house somewhere - can't remember where but it certainly aint under a bridge
     
  4. Adol

    Adol Certifiable
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    Salutations to you Bobar. My name is of course Aron Swordmaster, and I intend to run for the position of Lord Protector, and upon a policy guided by the Virtues that have steered our lands so well in the past.

    And so in the spirit of Honesty, I must answer your question in the negative. No, I am afraid were daemons or other foul beasts to be invading Vesper or another independent minded city, I would lead the troops of Britannia into it all the same. It is not Just that those whose only sin was to be born in a location where their leaders are rambunctious and argumentative should suffer and die; Justice is not geographical, but should exist from the very top of society down to the very bottom, from pole to pole and from heat to cold.

    That is not to say that as a private individual I do not despair too of the rambling and grumbling that too often distorts our responses to existential threats in the land; and I sometimes chafe too under the watchful eye of the Guards who police my home town of Yew. But this is different from the role required of a Lord Protector; what polity or feudal Baron would fear a Protector who took the path of letting his people die to make a larger point? The blame and hatred would naturally accrue to the Protector, and not the recalcitrant Barons, strengthening the alienation and disgust with the greater realm and causing the people to think; "He may be a Destard, but our Baron is our Destard at least".
    And who could ever trust such a mercenary Protector? Would I let the people of Stoneguard be ravaged next, if I thought it suited me? How then could I call upon the Guard to defend even my own home, let alone the home of others?

    No, if I am chosen to lead the armies of the land, I will lead them behind the banner of Honey and not Vinegar. Ask not to Sacrifice others for your beliefs, but ask instead what you can Sacrifice yourself to protect the beliefs of others. And I will sacrifice my own time and sweat and toil to try and bring our lands together in the mutual defence of life and liberty for all. We can debate the finer points of territorial antagonisms later; the dead however can debate nothing, for they have no voice.

    I understand this may not be what you wish to hear, but I hope that, if elected as Lord Protector, we can all deal with our differing beliefs respectfully and, in time, come to see all the things that can potentially unite us too. My offer to you is security, and through security time and your voice. All of your voices, from swaddling babe to selfish Baron.
     
  5. Bobar

    Bobar Babbling Loonie
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    Greetings Adol,
    Let me congratulate you on a well thought out and cogent response to my post. It is obvious that you have considered the subject fully and your article is the same as many humane people would compose. I understand your reasons and have great sympathy with them, however I stand by my words and having made my bed I shall now proceed to lie in it.

    To expand on my theme, we all live in a Kingdom (albeit one presently without a monarch). Once, we were one nation and in that unity we were strong. Even were we to once more have a ruler he(she) would be ruling a divided kingdom. Now, to not put too fine a point on it, all cities and territories that now consider themselves independant are in fact rebels.
    If we had a king the leaders of these factions would be termed, traitors and to have committed treason.

    A strong king would have no real option but to take action to restore these territories to the monarchy, by force if necessary.

    Thus my argument for letting any of these fall to an invader and subsequently taking it back is in essence the same thing. Yes a severe penalty for those unfortunate to simply live there would have been paid, BUT ONLY ONCE. They would once more be a part of the Kingdom of Sosaria with full rights and entitlement to protection in the future plus they would have no further problems with other 'independant' factions.

    In my view the role of Protector is to ensure and protect the future of Sosaria and IMPROVE it when they are able. To restore a city/territory and its citizens to full citizenship falls completely within this. I believe a Protector MUST be able to take unpopular decisions and live with it. A general has to decide sometimes that troops are expendable, unpleasant perhaps, but sacrificing the few to save the many has always played a part in war.

    It is always pleasant to take the easy popular path, real leadership for me is the ability to take the unpleasant route when it is necessary.

    Having given my opinion, it is of course only MY opinion, and I wish you well in the contest.
     
  6. Scrumpy Jack

    Scrumpy Jack Guest

    Ello yer lot!

    I can honestly say, that I don't own a house. I have a permit after all! If yer saw a dwelling with my name on it, yer must have been fooled by an imposter. There is only one true Scrumpy Jack, and I have a permit to prove it! Ask the imposter for HIS permit when yer meet him and see what will happen. Hah!

    Now about yer clever Lord-thing. Yer need somebody who understands the people, who traveled the lands, does not mind to has his hands dirty and who has his own squirrel! So, nobody better qualified then me, huh? I might be willin' to take the job as long as there is cider involved and I can take enough time off to keep looking for Typhoid Mary. One thing I can promise yer: no more posh talking like this Aron guy. My head is still spinnin' from all those preposterous words!

    That reminds me: did I ever tell yer the story of when I was in Old-Magincia and met this mage whose head was too big to put a hat on? Anyway, 'tis a dull story...

    Yers knightly
    Scrumpy Jack
     
  7. Kou (DoT)

    Kou (DoT) Guest

    As full of thoughts as I am on this topic, I'll have to exercise restraint in sharing them (especially in light of a certain widely respected city stealing my ideas for his own campaign(!)).
    In the most general of terms, threats to the kingdom are threats to the kingdom, no matter whether they attack Britain or Vesper, or set up for a picnic in some far off peninsula.
    Moreover, it's wrong to condemn the citizens of a city for the political decisions of its leaders. If they are to be condemned at all, it should be for their own decisions, and even then the right to condemn them doesn't lie with any one of us.
     
  8. Bobar

    Bobar Babbling Loonie
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    As I said in my post what I have written is only my opinion and defines what I personally would be looking for in a Lord Protector. I do not ask anyone to agree with me nor do I argue that they should. My opinions are formed from my view of the state of our nation and what is required to rectify it.

    I do disagree that citizens of a city hold no responsibility for its leaders, how else did they become the leaders without the agreement of the inhabitants?.

    I do admit that my views are somewhat coloured by nostalgia. I am, unashamedly, a Royalist and my greatest desire is to march, just once more, with the Army of Sosaria behind the Royal Standard.

    Something to ponder on. I am sure that most of the candidates will be good men, sincere in their desire to serve and protect our land. Any Lord Protector will leave a legacy regarding his actions during his tenancy. Some might be remembered as good, kind, wise, humane, thoughtful or in other ways but, how well will they be remembered? A Lord Protector who trod the unpleasant path looking at the long term future of Sosaria and managed to restore the kingdom to its former glory would most certainly never be forgotten.

    How would history judge such a man? Saint or Sinner? Tyrant or Saviour? maybe a little of each. We cannot tell. However I wish wholeheartedly that such a man is found.
     
  9. Adol

    Adol Certifiable
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    Let us put aside for the moment our hopes for the future; what are the practical realities within our Realm as it currently is?

    The truth is that those who lead the wayward cities are under no fear of bodily death; they have at their disposal a range of magical and alchemical means to cheat the grave. Were you to allow widespread slaughter in their cities, you are not objectively embracing change, because the regimes would remain in place...

    No, true change can only come with a change of mind; and so before you start asking the bedrock of Britannia, it's average citizen, to have their blood spilled to water our new land, you had better be absolutely sure that you have the right seeds of doubt ready to plant in the soaked soil. And do we? Would allowing Vesper to be ravaged encourage it's rulers to be more sympathetic or less to it's national responsibilities?

    I believe we all know the answer to this. There are only two real practical choices you face in this fallen world we inhabit; the armies of the land can be led into Vesper, and be welcomed because they bring food and protection... or they can stay out, and then be kept out, because they seemed more interested in letting people die.

    But as I said, Honesty compels me to insist that even were the Lords and Barons of the land as mortal as their brethren, it would still not be the choice I would make. I came to these lands to celebrate life not death, to follow Virtue not cynical realpolitik. And to learn to truly follow in the footsteps of not just the Avatar, but our fondly remembered liege Lord British; I would recommend his fine work "Ethical Hedonism" to gain a better understand of what should guide us today;

    That same pursuit of happiness would be compromised by allowing other people to die too. Or, as a wise Tiger that lived in the world Lord British came to us from has described it;

    As Lord Protector I shall raise men up, and in our common security, find the freedom to rejoice in our diverse yet genuine ways... and not cast them down for an uncertain future good. Perhaps you will find a candidate who agrees with you, but I beseech you, in the bowels of the Avatar, think it possible you may be mistaken.
     
  10. Bobar

    Bobar Babbling Loonie
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    My personal opinions matter little and I can probably only dream of what could be. Once the elections are done I will follow whomsoever is elected without demur, which is as it should be. As we have no ruler the will of the majority should prevail.

    As far as what might happen if one of the 'independant' areas fell to an enemy, the regime re-installing itself might be a little more difficult than they imagine. Think Magincia, and the total desolation that ensued when, despite the best efforts of our forces, it was laid waste. If Magincia had been a province that had declared itself independant, said leaders would have had control of a desolate wasteland with no subjects to lead. I suspect they would have moved on long before Magincia was restored to us.

    I dream of a united land but accept that it may be no more than a dream.
     
  11. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    Iam kinda very very worried this new so called leader will ''call to arms'' within his/her own guild of friends and players ....with little or no notice to shall we say....mmmm.... others?? outsiders?? the rest??

    We really need to be carefull here....on who fills this elite title and position.

    Looks forward to how this unfolds for sure...
     
  12. Scrumpy Jack

    Scrumpy Jack Guest

    Ello yer lot!

    All this important talking of yer posh people leaves only one choice: vote for Scrumpy! I am not posh talking, I am not calling anybody (except names) to anything, I am not meddling with yer invasions and I am not demuring nobody! And most importantly: I have a permit! What more do yer people want?

    So, where do I have to sign the papers?

    That reminds me: did I ever tell yer the story of when I was in Moonglow and met this librarian who thought that x marks the spot? Anyway, 'tis a dull story...

    Yers importantly
    Scrumpy Jack
     
  13. Bobar

    Bobar Babbling Loonie
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    It is a long time since i posted this but maybe, just maybe my wish is to be granted. I have just read the last chapter of the Awakening and it seems that Dupre travels the land once more. In the absence of Lord British I feel sure Dupre would be acceptable to all true Sosarians and would make an excellent King. His qualifications are many, he was one of the original Companions of the Avatar who all did so much to form a stable Kingdom. His emblem of the purple chalice signifies his chosen virtue, Honour, he is a true Knight Errant, a Paladin. A man guided by Honour would almost inevitably be Just and Compassionate, virtues most needful in a King. I live in hope once more. Pehaps I will hear again the battlecry 'For The King'. Dupre has shown his worth in the past and has no need to prove himself.
    I for one would accept him with no hesitation.
     
  14. Jonathen

    Jonathen Sage
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    While Dupre is without doubt one of the greatest defenders Sosaria (Britannia) ever knew, and his devotion to Honour makes him an excellent Lord and figurehead for Trinsic, that same devotion to the virtue of Honour above all others makes him a poor choice for King of Britannia. Protector and knight, yes, but he will never be able to speak for all the people.

    [and OOC - within the Ultima virtue system, honour certainly doesn't imply justice or compassion, in fact being the combination of Truth and Courage it is almost diametrically opposed to compassion which comes purely from Love ;) ]
     
  15. Bobar

    Bobar Babbling Loonie
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    We all have our viewpoint which is as it should be. However I stand firmly by my view that Dupre would make an excellent King. We have no bloodline from which to appoint a natural successor and a King is what a Kingdom MUST have if it is to survive as such and end the divisions within our lands. I do not suggest that Honour is associated with Love but that if a person is guided by Honour it must follow that Justice and Compassion ensue. To be honourable one must 'Do the right thing' if one does that one surely has to follow the virtues. The virtues are a circle, all are equal so all must be embraced to have true Honour.

    Also this Kingdom is in dire need of a strong leader able to inspire the people, what could be more so than a warrior King?. We have for a long time now been beset by many troubles needing real and enduring leadership. A King is a rallying point and a strong King an inspiration.

    Whilst Dawn lived she was a Queen from the same mould, a warrior Queen and the people followed her with little dissent as to her right to the role. In the end she was betrayed by love, not through any fault of her own, but simply by her love for her husband who had been bewitched. This does not distract from the fact that she is well regarded and remembered as a good queen.

    I therefore hope that Dupre is appointed (and anointed) King and this Kingdom once more has a monarch.
     
  16. Irvyn

    Irvyn Guest

    Dupre has long been a mentor to me in spirit, though we have never met. A bust of him stands in my office, as it has done since the day I became Duke. Whilst I know I can never measure up to him, he is a beacon, an inspiration, a guide on the lonely path of leadership.


    I revere him not only because he shares the Virtue of my city, not only because he was instrumental in freeing it from the curse of Juo'nar, not only because he was companion and comrade to my liege, Lord British. To me, he embodied all the Virtues, finding a balance more nearly than any other that I know - even including Lord British.

    Consider the tale of Dupre and the Gargoyles, and ask yourself whether this man is not truly a leader among men?

    I would be proud to be a part of a kingdom led by such a man.

    Irvyn
    Trinsic
     
    Bobar likes this.