1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Thievery & a short history lesson

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Goldberg-Chessy, Sep 11, 2008.

  1. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    Who actually wants thieves restored to their former power? Griefers or actual players?

    When the thief could use a simple 2 key macro to Disarm & steal at will with basically 0 consequences.
    The best ones had no need to wear any gear so obviously no worries about losing anything.
    Not once have I ever heard a valid argument that explained to me what possible risk the thief took because there was absolutely none. Death without losing any gold or gear? Lol, 0 risk.

    Correct me if I am wrong but almost every time you see another post for the return of the thief they specifically mention this period of time when thieves were running rampant.

    Kinda sad because every one of these thieves was nothing more then a pure griefer.

    You have a thief and you have a victim. There was never any in-between or middle ground.

    Thief - Victim

    What made it much worse is that you then had a situation created where only 1 side could possibly have any fun or satisfaction(and dont get me wrong as it was hella fun being the thief back then lol)
    But the problem,and reason IMO that the Devs rightfully nerfed it a bit, was that only ONE SIDE had any possibility for fun or satisfaction(the thief of course)
    Who enjoyed being chased/snooped around by a thief? Absolutely nobody.

    Need more proof that thieves mainly just stole to grief? How about the FACT that to this day they can steal hundreds of millions out of Doom & also steal extremely valuable Powerscrolls from Felucca spawns yet they choose not to. Why is that? They are thieves yet they dont want to steal valuable items? Hrmmm. Right now you can read threads where supposed oldstyle thieves are complaining about Doom & scrolls because they say its not the same as stealing from another player. Uhh, can you say Griefer more clearly?

    Bottom line is that the oldstyle thief was by nature the actual definition of griefing.

    If the Devs can come up with a way to give the thief the same amount of risk as the victim then I am all for the return of thievery. But until then good riddance.

    Peace :)
     
  2. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Secret Society

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2001
    Messages:
    35,539
    Likes Received:
    908
    This post?...la
     
  3. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    Its nice to see such an unbiased reply so quickly :)

    I am not trying to grief or troll anybody.

    I am just kinda tired of people whining/pining for more of what is griefing IMO.
     
  4. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2006
    Messages:
    643
    Likes Received:
    126
    Give Rico a little more credit =)

    Most thieves can be taken out in a couple of hits.. they cant stealth mounted.. cant use moongates or recall for a few minutes.. and if they die in that window, the stolen booty gets auto-returned. (thieves pay insurance money too)

    So everytime you get your bandaids stolen, and kill the thief, you make a few thousand gold.

    Old School, yea more griefing definately.

    Today.. pfft. RISK is taken purely by the thief.
     
  5. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    I agree with you 100% about todays thief.
    Maybe I didnt say it clearly enough but my post was 100% addressing the oldstyle Disarm/steal thief that everybody seems to be asking to have returned.

    But I will also say that todays thief is still extremely powerful if he actually just wants to be a thief. Doom & spawns/scrolls are extremely lucrative. A thief today can make tens of millions a month just doing those 2 spots. The problem is that almost every damn thief that every played the game really doesnt care about items or gold. They just want to exact losses upon other players :( That is griefing IMO.
     
  6. Salty Pete

    Salty Pete Guest

    So then you must also be advocating the removal of all PvP between players who are not in guild wars or factions.
     
  7. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2006
    Messages:
    643
    Likes Received:
    126
    Doom and scrolls are profitable indeed.. unless you die. Then you wander aimlessly for that healer, and when you get back, you have piles of gold to pick up. Its an adventure in itself.. trying to avoid the detecters and such.. and once you steal the item, the escape is just as hard =).

    Not to mention that if you want to go back for seconds, your presence is now known.

    Stealth and suprise are the thief's best weapon.. not the actual stealing.
     
  8. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,570
    Likes Received:
    1,835
    I'm a Player and I want thieves brought back to closer their former point. Not to grief, but because it's probably the worst abused play style at the moment, and also happens to be one I enjoy playing.

    You don't see posts against the "Sampire" templet?, Stealth Archers?, Stealth Tamers? It's same thing...players using game mechanics to gain and advantage over other player...while in the case of the Disarm thief it opened the door for griefing that only justifies a change in mechanics to address the issues they caused not a total destruction of the entire spectrum of Thief vs Player style game play. Today's build of a successful thief leaves little in the room for offensive skills on a production shard if they want to be successful thanks to Passive Reveal.

    Who that isn't a PvPer enjoys getting beat down by a PK?, same difference. You might enjoy one type of play style but not others. At the time the Thief had more negative restrictions and still does than even Murderers. Can a Blue PvPer/Crafter/Tamer ect. flag Criminal for preforming a negative act on a Murderer? No a thief can. Thieves are the only players who can't give counts while Blue if they weren't the aggressor...yup I can be minding my own business get revealed as a blue killed and can't give a count even without a criminal or murderer flag. OH lets not forget that during the period you keep referring to Permagrey was still in place where a Thief could be always flagged as a Criminal leaving him at as much risk of a good ganking as a Red. Oh and the Thief was the Middle ground between the Red and the Blue. Instead of taking your items by killing you we took them by well just taking them.


    False. While you can go to spawns have you ever heard of 6-8 thieves going all at once as a group, and doing a raid? Nope it's usually a single Thief. I go to spawns on a thief and it's always solo I go up against anywhere from 3-10 players with nothing as a defense but hiding and stealth, with Passive reveal and the fact that you can see when a person Shadowjumps where do the odds lie? Not on the Thief usually. Oh those folks in Doom, The Fan Dancer Dojo, Yamatsu Mines...well the real thieves you know that steal from other players call those "crates" they aren't thieves, who are the stealing from? Picking up a $5 bill laying in the road make you a thief? No neither does this, being a thief means you still from another player. It's no different than stealing junk out of crates in a provisioners shop except if you get lucky enough to avoid the script runners you can snag an item that has some value.


    Bottom Line old disarm thieves used mechanics that were in the game to do what they did, that doesn't make it griefing. If I was to have hit you up for a Silver Vanq katana well what's the difference in me taking it after a disarm than when you took it out of the bank?, other than you can't beat on me with it. That I could do so easily is a flaw in game mechanics that should have been addressed, not one that should have resulted in the overall nerfing of an entire play style. Trammel hurt the thief like any other vs Player style of play, AoS almost killed the thief, with insurance, it turned many into "crates" and severely limited all of those that didn't take that route. It wasn't until Ninjitsu came into play with Samurai Empire that Thieves finally got a bone with the ability to use Animal Form and Shadow Jump giving them a way to actually get close enough to snoop a pack without being revealed.

    No Thieves have been hit harder than PvPers, Bards, Tamers, or any other style of player. The skill set needs a boon to bring it back to a playstyle that is not only enjoyable but also self supportive.
     
  9. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Secret Society

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2001
    Messages:
    35,539
    Likes Received:
    908
    And here you go with your assumptions again. The people I played a thief with were most looking to be chased by a mark or group of players. Stealing something, anything to turn grey. The adrenaline rush of playing back then was what we were looking for. I can't tell you how many times i was told the opposing player had a great time during the time they were trying to catch me/us.

    It's really never been about the items. Sure, we will take a larger item to get more of a thrill, but it got to the point where players wouldn't chase unless the item stolen was of greater value, so what did we take? Go figure.

    Nothing better (in-game) than spending an evening online being chased by an entire guild trying to recapture their guildmates silver weapon.

    You say we only had two macros. try again, I have always had numerous macros which I used for various situations. Are you saying that tamers in PvP are griefers? I mean, how tough is it to use your "all kill" and target macros against other players?

    There have always been players who disliked thieves...why? because they didn't know how to use game mechanics to protect their goods. To this day, I still don't understand why players with the swords skill didn't always keep a hally in their pack. Why? Because a thief could never steal it, sure they could disarm it, but guess what, if we got close enough to disarm, we still risked getting hit by it...la
     
  10. D'Amavir

    D'Amavir Guest

    Nerf tamers and 'All Kill'!!

    I agree. Not all thieves are griefers just like not all pk's are griefers. I used to have tons of fun on my thief stealing exceptional crafted weapons. Whoa, big gain there for me. And big loss for them. The thrill came from the hunt itself. Sneaking up on a person and checking out their bag. Stealing an item then trying to get out of dodge while you are being chased by a pack of blues that your 'mark' was with.
     
  11. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    You missed a point in my post that I made quite clearly.
    Its all about only 1 side having to take any risk. That is wrong in Felucca or Trammel for that matter.

    Any type of pvp allows each player to have an equal chance and each side is taking general risks. This absolutely was not the case with the oldtime thief.

    Even non consensual pvp still gives the non consenting party the opportunity to defend and possibly win the battle. This was not the case against the oldtime thief. There was no chance to win as the thief took no risk. You could only stand to lose valuable gear. The thief cared little about dying so it was just a quite common process of 'lather/rinse/repeat'

    Does anyone think that it was coincidence that the screen would be full of the corpses of the same thief for hours on end yet the thief still returned every time? The thief had 0 risk and didnt care about dying as he had no need for gear. Just a 2 key process that I could train my dog to do quite well(much like playing an Archer today lol)

    Thieves were 100% griefers back in their glory days and that is why they were changed IMO.
     
  12. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Secret Society

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2001
    Messages:
    35,539
    Likes Received:
    908
    You actually seem to paint all thieves with the same broad brush. Sorry, wrong color. I know plenty of thieves that run around with full gear, especially on the production shards.

    This seems to be a common comment..."those mean old thieves had nothing to lose". I don't recall anyone asking for riskless thieving to be returned, but plenty of people suggesting this is the case...la
     
  13. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2006
    Messages:
    643
    Likes Received:
    126
    Full gear, and no code >=).
     
  14. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    No offense bud but thats kinda silly. You have someone elses item and you have your rush. You are seriously trying to tell me that people often told you that they enjoyed chasing you all night to try and retrieve their items? Please dont insult my intelligence.

    Your reply only proves my point. Oldtime thieves didnt steal for items or gold. They stole for griefing. You just happen to call griefing 'adrenaline rush'(for only one side of course) Or are you also going to tell me that players enjoyed getting an 'adrenaline rush' trying to chase down the thief that just stole an item they worked for months/years to acquire?

    To take it even further do you in rl park your extremely valuable vehicle in high crime areas because you enjoy the rush of chasing the thief who just stole it? *sighs*

    Lather,rinse,repeat. Only the thief stood to win anything in EVERY encounter.
     
  15. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,038

    I certainly will agree with you that some thieves did run around with full gear. But my point was that they also did not need to have any gear at all to be brutally effective.

    But I will say that based on the posts I read each month on these boards damn near every player asking for the return of thievery makes it plain that he/she wants it how it was so I am sorry if it seems that I am lumping all thieves together but it is hard not to.
     
  16. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2006
    Messages:
    643
    Likes Received:
    126
    It was much.. much.. much worse back in my day.. That one item for the rush was a house key.. and this was before "i wish to lock this down" existed.. so you can imagine the damage =).. and the RUSH of chasing down that thief.

    *Nice tag btw, Rico. Im still trying to get "Thread Closer"
     
  17. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,038
    No offense bud but do you realize how ridiculous the 'rush' of chasing a thief argument is?

    If the 'rush' of chasing thieves was so common and fun why did you stop?

    Why not just join a faction and go out today with all your most valuable items uninsured. I'm sure that at some point you will have some stolen and you can get your 'rush' trying to kill or chase the thief before he insures them.

    Or if you are worried about the thief getting the item insured asap you can just carry around every cursed arty and then you can definitely get your 'rush' chasing that faction thief around.

    *shakes head*
     
  18. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Secret Society

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2001
    Messages:
    35,539
    Likes Received:
    908
    People stopped chasing us after all we could take from them was pots and band aids...la
     
  19. Anjeel

    Anjeel Guest

    If by nerfed a bit you mean they completely destroyed the pvp thief then you would be more correct. You obviously have an extremely negative view of thieves as is seen in this post but the risk has always been there for thieves.

    No matter what they choose to do, they are always lootable. They can never request aid from town guards. They can never get a murder count. etc etc etc. If you lost items to a naked thief then that was your own fault to be perfectly honest :).

    but back to the fun of thieves. I dont know if anyone remembers but a few others and myself formed the Lighthanded Cheer Squad (LCS) way back in the day and what did we do? We stole from people in Fel in cheerleader uniforms, cheered at brit bank, and ran one of the first successful auction houses. Thieving can be fun for all around if you arent that attached to everything you own :)

    As a note, the LCS was on Pacific shard
     
  20. RedDaTeef

    RedDaTeef Guest

    Problem is how the devs did it. When they split Fel and Tram into an exact copy of each other, that was a big mistake.
    Trammel should have been a totally different land, either that or Fel could have been made into a different land, which would have caused pple to go there more.
    Therefore thieves could still live in Fel and have many people to steal from.

    Also insurance should not work in Fel.

    Thank you and goodnight!
     
  21. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,038

    1) Becuase you believe that a playstyle is the worst abused is absolutely no reason to restore it to its former power

    2) People are certainly crying for other templates to be restored but bottom line is that they were nerfed for a good reason. Exactly the same as Thievery. I want my macer to be able to 1 hit kill fully armored people all night long just like way back when Conc blow forst came out and was random. Shoudl it happen tho? Hell no. Whats your point?

    3) Anybody that says they cant steal scrolls solo doesnt know how to play a thief. Passive reveal or not. Maybe you should use some smarts & patience. But I forgot, you prefer the oldschool greif thief who needed 0 skill or patience so how would you know how to use either?

    4) Using the 'stealing' skill makes you a thief period. So yes, Doom and Dojo do of course apply

    5) Your reply just further proves that all any thieves want is to be able to grief other players all day with 0 repercussion. Please explain to me what other template ever happily played 99% of the time with its own multiple corpses on the ground the whole time? None.
    Permagray and not giving counts means nothing because as a thief you dont care about dying. EVERY other class in the game needs to care about dying. The oldschool thief didnt.

    Please....
     
  22. Anjeel

    Anjeel Guest


    Bringing RL situations into a game is ridiculous. Do you bring your greater dragon to work with you all day? Maybe riding on your unicorn while being chased by Rikktor?

    I want to know what monsters you kill daily in RL, then you can start equating the two
     
  23. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2008
    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    22
    For players that didnt want non consensual pvp they created Trammel yet they took it another step and made the game item based and put in item insurance. You may like things to be consequence free but i assure you there are many that loathe those changes. Instead of giving people the choice to play how they want on production shards they completely removed that choice. Its a moot point though as you already have things the way you want it. I dont understand why to this day people like you continue to cry about thieves. I guarantee if they removed your precious Forrest Gump archer you wouldnt be too happy either. If you wanted nothing but to be able to shoot back and forth at other players Trammel should have been enough. Thieves were another element to a dangerous virtual world that once was UO. Now their is simply Utopia in Trammel where there really is no sense of a virtual world and Fel where all playstyles are now cookie cutter like with little sense of it being anything like the real UO that Uo once was. I wont even bring up all the other playstyles item insurance and Utopia destroyed. Thats a whole other thread altogether.
     
  24. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest

    if every player made a thief and there were 20 thieves around every ps spawn, then only thieves would have powerscrolls, and such an imbalance would get them nerfed again.


    Face it, it's time to take insurance out of fel for everyone. Someone pking you with a 20 mil suit on and 5 120 skills is just as fair as someone stealing a crappy wep or messing with you in a fight. If a thief is a problem you can always get another person and try to kill him.


    The fun isn't in chasing the thieves, it's in killing them, staying safe from them, and playing them.

    And sometimes the get away is fun. I've stolen junk just to flag grey for a run around hide fest. They chose to attack me, so they must have wanted to play too.



    People pking people with the gear they have on now is stupid and creates an uberclass in fel that can't be matched by the people coming from trammel for pvp. Take out the gear, use the skills and we'll see people fighting with subpar items losing them and not caring.


    of course you'd be pissed if you lost a 100 million gold suit you gimps



    the fact we can play naked should say something for the item *****s out there.



    When we disarmed and stole, people started playing mages (with lrc we're not gonna have a chance with a mage unless we're really good) or using the heavier weps or learning to rearm really fast


    I dont' understand the ubergear in fel. rez and run right back fully armed with the best stuff in the game.. that's a challenge that promotes good FEL pvp.
     
  25. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2006
    Messages:
    643
    Likes Received:
    126
    Not just the thieves sir. If you got PKed, you lost everything..

    Remember, im talking the days of no insurance here.. grief days? maybe? for some of you? The days of no lockdowns or secures. The days before *blessed* items were around. (cbd's were originally an xmas gift) If that house key got stolen or lost, basically the entire house was lost. You could only access it if you made a copy of the key, and whats to say the person with your original copy he just stole, wont stop on by a few months down the road to see what youve got for him? Or take a joyride on his new boat? Or take that house deed in your backpack?

    Trust me when I say the thief class has been nerfed to all hell.. (some crazies out there actually believe you can claim ownership over pixels or other virtual worldly possesions) and through constant and persistant complaining, the thief in UO died. Even still today, people complain about stealing. Think about it in yesterdays terms:

    "your key, or your life"

    (and with no item insurance, its the key or everything ;))
     
  26. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,160
    Likes Received:
    1,038

    Ya

    I hear you 100%

    I also dont want to be misundertood in this thread. I am actually all for anything that will get more oldtime players involved in Felucca.
    So of course I realize that making thieves viable again is ironically probably one of the best and fastest ways to do that. People def seem to ask for thieves more then any other class so that should mean thats lots of them will beef Uo back up a bit in Felucca.

    My entire point was just that I am tired of all the people coming to these boards and whining/pining for thieves the way they were when they were just brutally effective with 0 gear and basically 0 consequences.

    If someone can figure out a solid way to bring back the pvp thief I will endorse it asap.
    I honestly think the Devs are really missing the boat if they arent at least working on restoring the Felucca thief in a new way.
     
  27. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest

    balance with no insurance.


    I can already predict we'll be mage food, cause you can't steal the regs to stop para/offense/healing/curing


    dexers will be quick on the draw too


    I don't want the shard saturated with thieves, if that happened I'd make a char and start killing them (you can exp ebolt in town) and I play a thief as my main.

    You've already trammeled fel. Then aos'd it. It's time to uninsure it, that style of play doesn't suit there, and it will increase item turnover in the game (which is a GOOD thing)
    take out the ubergear/classes that have a stranglehold on fel already and make them relook, rethink, and react. It will revamp pvp, the thief class, and put over FIVE skills in the game, back into play. And level the playing field for everyone.
     
  28. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest

    and of course it's a grief class it's a THIEF. You'll die to a murderer, but wont let us steal from them? You'll be pkd, but not be stolen from? You'll kill other players and don't want to be stolen from?

    Where's the balance in rezzing with full ubergear anyhow? You're not going to buy new stuff, you're not going to be having diversity in gameplay cause you'll have the same items/templates eventually.



    Yeah it's grief, but it's good grief (lol) you'd better stop going to trammel spawns if you don't want to be griefed cause something might kill you and loot you.


    Putting stealing, looting, and no insurance will make fel peak some. Where is the drain on the econmy in trammel? Anyone who would say that people aren't spoiled now, and rich as hell have no idea what they are talking about. PVP isn't about friendly duels or safe items, or uber items. It's you on an 80 swords char fighting someone you can kill (and you would kill a thief in a fight) and it's not about you having mindblowing stat modding items. It would take away jewelry that boosts extra skills and make people rethink the templates


    you wanna be rich? go live in the hills, don't try to tame the wilderness from behind your iron walls. But if you bring your riches into the land of thieves and murderers, then don't be suprised if you lose it.


    That's how it should be.
     
  29. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,570
    Likes Received:
    1,835
    So your saying it should stay in the ranks of Taste ID, Camping, Herding, Forensic Eval? Those are called dead skills too even though there area few that use them.
    What's yours? The mechanics of UO and the environment we play in has changed since Publish 16, it's changed since AoS, it's changed with adjustments they've made in the past 3 months, there is no reason for a re-evaluation of current play styles to be done and adjustment made to benefit the weaker one's or hamper the over powered. Right now the Thief is on the weaker end of the scale, those interested in it are trying to bring it to the attention of the Developers so a possible Re-evaluation can happen.

    Oh I steal scrolls at spawns, I steal items right in the middle of people PvPing. I know about patience and smarts on a thief. What I don't do is steal to grief. My mind set on it is this, if your dumb enough, or arrogant enough not to guard against thieves in Fel then you deserve to be educated and humbled by loosing your items. Especially in an era where items can be insured and there are multiple methods to detect and prevent thieves from getting any advantage.
    Go to the Thieves forum and say that they'll tell you to go to the Rares Collectors forums where crates belong.
    I'm not discussing the Old School Thief, game mechanics have killed that style of play on Prodo shards. What I am discussing is that the current more modern build of thief, and it should have a few bones tossed it's way because right now they are the most underpowered of any Player vs Player style character. PvP isn't just fighting, it's any can be any negative action by one player to another, in most peoples minds it's Combat to the death, in the mind of a thief it's robbing players and escaping their assaults. There are still a few of us left because we honestly enjoy playing thieves, we want to see the play style prosper and become equal in it's ability to preform in a PvP arena. That's no different than crafters asking for ways to open the market back up and compete with Artifacts, it's no different than Dexxers asking for one group or another to get nerfed or boosted because they have an obvious weakness. There will always be those that argue against it, but then again those are usually the one's that will loose their dominance if it happens.
     
  30. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,779
    Likes Received:
    434
    Not every thief was a griefer... Some of us were, and still are RPers. Others had fun hunting thieves and PKs. Guilds were formed for that very purpose, but as the game has changed there's no fun or satisfaction in hunting a red or thief anymore. We all have insurance, the thief can steal so little you feel sorry for him, the bounty system died and so on. I played both sides of that particular fence and enjoyed both for a long time. Just because you can't see the fun in something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The thief class was fun to play and fight, and it needs improvement. It doesn't need to be insulted by you or anyone else.

    It's been said hundreds of times, but if you don't like thieves, or PKs, stay on the Tram side of the moongate. It was created to give you a safe haven, not to give folks ideas about how to screw up Fel. I can take any set of skills and grief someone with them - it's not the skills which make the griefer, it's the player. If players hadn't been able to use thieves or PKs to grief in Fel, they'd have used something else.

    Now if you have some suggestions as to suitable risk options for thieves, or how to improve the skill, assuming you've at least taken time to play a thief to figure out how things work - then suggest away. I have no issue with risk, I just want to have more fun stealing. Without moving to Siege. Though I get closer to that move each day on Uhall lol.

    Wenchy
     
  31. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    6,680
    Likes Received:
    824
    Uhm, what the heck is this argument about thieves with 0 gear? Do you have any idea how quickly a thief with 0 gear will die in fel? I have seen these guys try to make it even now days with 0 gear in fel. You know what happens? The minute he/she is Id'ed as a thief, BAM, he/shes dead. Whether it be two spells or 2-3 good hard wacks with a weapon, they will be dead so fast. PvPers know how to eliminate even poor geared new players sitting in the guard zone. I think you need to give PvPers a little credit here on tracking their targets.

    I am pretty sure that even if they did remove insurance that 0 gear thieves would not stand a very big chance on even surviving that long. Yeah, there are some good ones out there, but get real, people with 0 gear can get wacked quickly, if not before they steal, after they steal. After all, you can't even hide right after you steal.
     
  32. Rubican

    Rubican Guest

    I think one of the things that led to the demise of the thief is the same thing that led to the demise of reds and the introduction of Tram. - a disproportionally high population of them.

    In small or even moderate numbers thiefs and reds add real excitment - but when they make up a high percentage of the characters you run into, it's just overwhelming.
     
  33. how is stealing one item as a thief worse and more of a grief than ganking a guy and stealing all his items? i mean at least with a thief you have the chance to get your stuff back, there are Plenty of problems with being a thief and as you said "the good ones didnt even need to wear armor and could steal your weap from your hand" yeah THE GOOD ONES most of the naked thiefs just sucked and ate dirt... and tell me chasing down a thief wasnt fun :p or satisfying.
    A GOOD pvper can kill you and loot ALL your items and have time to go bank them :p there are measures to protect yourself against a thief .
     
  34. azmodanb

    azmodanb Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2004
    Messages:
    5,912
    Likes Received:
    1,186
    I had an old disarm thief, I used to hang in Bucs Den when red's actually lived there... I remember just standing around, waiting for people to attack... if they did YOINK... there weapon was mine.

    I did not go around greifing people, just took those weapons of the people attacking me.

    BUT of course alot of people would just go around greifing... I miss the days, was always that chance you would loose your weapon... or hell just about anything in your bag... added another element to fel.

    I wish they would go back to being able to steal stuff... but there is alot of thinking involved in the thief trade, alot of dev work that needs to be done ... I am not for stealing anyones insured items, that they worked years putting together. But being able to steal anything left in your bag would be neat... stuff your wearing that is insured you dont have to worry about ... but once in your bag BAM... (of course disarm thief's would run rampent again, so maybe that would not be a great thing after all)...

    I dont know... but I would hope some day the thief race would come back and have more reasons to be played... just my two cents... but of course would take alot of planning, on EA's side, to make it worth while again.
     
  35. Draxous

    Draxous Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    5,126
    Likes Received:
    29

    Since you want a history lesson about Thieves and the risks versus rewards they encountered... how about you actually know what the history was?


    Joining the thieves guild meant that you could no longer give a murder count.

    That means, once you were discovered to be a thief, then you were killed non-stop, constantly and almost to the point where it would be considered griefing had you not have been.

    You could not steal in town, there was 0 chance of stealing an item without going grey and having guards called on you if people were around. And a TINY percentage where you successfully stole without getting instantly guardwacked.

    Perma-grey. You were open to attack, even in town... as long as someone could tell or knew you were perma-grey.

    Large objects or "magically locked" boxes were off limits. Thief proofing your character was sooooo ridiculously easy.

    You had to wear armor to be successful out in the field. The only successfull disarm thieves that I've ever seen were the ones that were stocked up... I can't believe you actually thought the best ones didn't wear armor... get real.

    Your template was completely, cramped making your character always at a disadvantage should you have gotten into a fight... put in snoop, stealing, hiding and stealth... and what the hell else could you really do besides die or always run away?


    Again, when there was stat-loss... if you were in the thieves guild you were FREELY attackable by anyone at any time outside of guardzone... and if that isn't RISK then I don't know what the hell is.... ESPECIALLY when there was no Trammel to hide in.
     
  36. Dicimiie

    Dicimiie Guest

    I'll start this by saying I have never played a thief of any sort. Having said that, I think it's a real shame that thieves have little to do now apart from stealing from Doom (something I personally don't label as stealing). I personally wish the days of having to worry about having something removed from your pack were back again. For me, it added one more aspect of roleplay to a game that initially could have been far and away the best roleplaying MMO out there.
     
  37. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    9
    PvP thieving in Tram == I quit.

    I played briefly back in those days and to be blunt, the game wasn't the slightest bit of fun if there was another player on the screen.
     
  38. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    6,680
    Likes Received:
    824
    I would consider it fun to steal from players in tram on my thief character. But I don't think it should be allowed, nor would it even be considered. Stealing from NPC's and other things and places, sure. But Stealing from players should only be for Fel and that is where some kind of change needs to come.
    I don't need to restate the reasons why, it's been posted in this thread and others.
     
  39. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Secret Society

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2001
    Messages:
    35,539
    Likes Received:
    908
    You mean you never learned how to protect the items in your pack? Why not?...la
     
  40. I think the real thing here to mention is... pvp stealing in tram? :p
     
  41. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,570
    Likes Received:
    1,835

    It's worse now if you want to play a successful thief on a Prodo Shard, you need to add in room for at least Ninjitsu thanks to how well passive reveal works, anywhere from 110-120 so after you manage to steal something you can use animal form to get away from mounted players (the lowest "Move at Mounted Speed" Forms don't hit 100% success till 110) Even Shadow Jump you need around 90 for 100% success since it's minimum skill is 50. Don't forget Transportation you get a little bit of room to wiggle here...you can take enough Necro to do Wraith Form without too much difficulty, or in my case I use Chiv though Magery is an option with obvious advantages too, like marking runes.

    Me personally I've added 70 Fence and Tactics along with 80 poisoning so I can inflict Lethal Poison with a Dagger most (80%) of the time when a blow lands, though this is only really good for when I find AFK macroers or Script bots in Fel, or that annoying Ettin that keeps looking at you funny. You could use the 220 or so points on other things but nothing else would really give you much in the way of an offense because of Lack of room for Parry to keep you alive long enough to land your blows.

    All in all a well rounded thief is a pretty tight template under the current game mechanics. Of course you can drop some in one area to go strong in another area but either way your going to loose out on something to an extent to leave you very very vulnerable somewhere.
     
  42. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,570
    Likes Received:
    1,835
    Seriously it isn't that hard.....
     
  43. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2008
    Messages:
    3,283
    Likes Received:
    0
    The OP brought up some very solid and truthful points on thieving regardless of your own opinion. Perhaps that is why you look to link two very different concepts to one opinion? Apples to oranges?

    @ Rico...you make me lol. Of all people to say nuh-uh...*shakes head*. (didnt i just read a thread of yours where you clearly are trying to steal something of no value? Didnt you complain that the thief has nothing good to steal not long ago yet you spend your time stealing worthless items in Luna?) You are a grief thief...nuff said.
     
  44. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Secret Society

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2001
    Messages:
    35,539
    Likes Received:
    908
    Link?

    Huh? I try to steal items that could be of value, but for some reason they are not stealable, how exactly does that make me a griefer?...la
     
  45. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest

    Face it, fel and these forums used to be booming.


    If insurance and no thieves helped the game that much, where is everyone? Here and there.


    Try to balance it out again to save your game. Keep trammel as safe as a baby and have fel handed to the thieves and the murders.

    You will get bored in trammel and you would visit, join, or fight with us. I've seen it happen a thousand times before aos.


    the only people to gain by not changing it are people who have powerscrolls and pvp areas locked down.


    This would create an econo drain, open the gameplay up, revamp the thief, pk, and pvp in fel. Change the dynamics of power scrolls, revamp skills unused in the game, provide a better villian class and a bad guy for the good guys to fight (player vs player is harder than anything in the game, it should be), and dozens upon dozens of other good reasons. If the people don't like it, there's always tram.
     
  46. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    9
    You realize that if you keep this attitude up, I'll start lobbying for the snooping and stealing skills to be removed from the game entirely?
     
  47. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    6,680
    Likes Received:
    824
    :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:

    Yeah, right. Good luck with even getting that done. :coco:
     
  48. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Professional Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,570
    Likes Received:
    1,835
    Even the Crates would rise up against that one...."Oh woe is me never to get an inquis again!"
     
  49. I'll defend a statement made by Rico in this thread, not that he needs me defending anything, but he was 100% correct about it being fun to chase a thief down.
    Sometimes the chase involved many people, over many minutes, and was a blast. Of course theives went after valuable things, why chase them down over a "suppremply accurate bag of rocks", grab my "Vanq longbow", and the chase was on. Thankfully most of the theives on Siege were great RPers as well, so it was fun for all.

    I wish thieves were back to their full power, no skillset has been ruined more by UO.


    and Maplestone..*Dagashi steals: Your right to post, more on this subject*
     
  50. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    9
    How can you have the audacity to say "100%" when there are counter-examples in this thread. Thieves have no place, zero, none, in any game I play. I don't care what they do beyond the red moongate, but there is nothing about sharing a world with them that interests me. You may have a different opinion about what you enjoy, but you say "100%", then I'm offended.