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Things I hope EA does differently in the future....

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Revenant2, Aug 5, 2008.

  1. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    My opinions only here, feel free to debate, post additional, whatever.

    • Please act QUICKLY to remove these kinds of duped/illegal items from the mainstream market! This is most especially if you're intending to ban people who are not the dupers themselves and are just purchasers. Allowing batches of relatively inexpensive but high-end dupes to circulate is like leaving poisoned dog treats about the neighborhood if you're intending to punish people for buying them. It's cruel.

    • Immedietely deleting newly-banned people's houses and the property in them can damage the remaining people's trust and confidence in you. Nobody expects you to be perfect but everybody expects you to be careful, and doing this gives the appearance of a lack of care. People perceive that deleting the accused person's property outright takes away your real, material ability to double back and fix any mistakes you might make. People don't outright blame you for the initial mistake but they do hold the unnecessary destruction of (virtual) property against you.

      One effect of the damaged trust is that it makes some of them think, maybe I should get out (quit) before I have to deal with this, and get to give my stuff away and leave on my own terms. There's no reason to create this kind of inclination in people. It's possible to clear the house lists and take ownership and hold onto the houses for a short time. Even assuming you deleted them all after a week, that delay in deletion sends a much better message to those who remain.

    • Replying to the banned people who are appealing with identical, emailed replies that do not specify which inappropriate items were in their possession also damages the remaining people's trust in you. Your replies to such queries must give the appearance of having been individually investigated and include a list of the inappropriate items. If it does not, it gives the appearance that people's appeals are not taken seriously and perhaps the people who are answering the emails don't know (but also don't care). It may be extra work to document the bannable items and to formulate the reply, but it's necessary to maintain the confidence of the people who remain.


    Those are the 3 main things. I hope youall consider the points, and maybe other posters will have something to contribute.
     
  2. Lissa Eldi

    Lissa Eldi Guest

    Do this on a Monday or Tuesday so that you can address the concerns of the remaining players, in addition to the banned ones, in a timely manner without letting it stew over the weekend.
     
  3. Lord Kynd

    Lord Kynd Guest



    makes me almost scared to play anymore, cept hunt peerless non stop or stand around with my thumb up my ...
    sigh
     
  4. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    Dammed good post..well thought out. More than i can say about these bannings. I have a 9 year old account hate dupers/Scripters but I think they way this was dealt with is out of order. Mistakes do happen and you have left no room for maneuver here!

    This is why people dont go from court to death chamber in the same day! Once its done there is no comming back!


















    1
     
  5. Nails Warstein

    Nails Warstein Rares Festival Silent Auctioneer
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  6. Strawberry

    Strawberry Guest



    • This is what bothers me most. By deleting the houses they're saying that they couldn't possible have made a mistake, but we all know nobody is infallible. It's easy to imagine being wrongly accused or the victim of a bureaucratic mistake. If my house, with my roses, holiday cards, and other irreplacables were ever deleted, it wouldn't even be worth fighting to try to come back. Once a player thinks of that, it's naturally to become a little detached from the game. All they had to do was hold off for a month on deleting those houses and it would have done wonders for the playerbase's peace of mind. There are owned-by-OSI houses scattered across every shard and have been for years. A month's grace period before deleting this new round of houses wouldn't have hurt anyone.
     
  7. Xalan Dementia

    Xalan Dementia Slightly Crazed
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    Everyone wants the duped items gone, so ea goes through flagged accounts, finds dupes in thier possession and bans accounts. lets say they didnt delete the houses, then people would swarm boards with "Delete this banned players house so i can place my house there" or "this banned account still has a house full of dupes". If they left the house of the banned account stand then the day after the duper is banned, he jumps on a secondary account thats co owner of the house and clears out the left over dupes. I guess what im saying is You Duped or you knowingly bought high end items too cheap therefore you deserve punishment and you should MOVE ON
     
  8. MYUO

    MYUO Guest

    The biggest complain I have is that the banning comes not soon enough. Dev should seriously consider put some tag on all of the high end and rare in game items. Those tags should be monitored on a daily basis. If there is sudden increase in the number of items, Draconi's team should immediately start investigation. Dev should not rely on players' report on those major exploits. Meanwhile, the info should be passed to the player base via uo.com and log in screen. This way, players can get timely notification of the "possible" dupes.

    The banning is a welcome step toward re-establishing the dignity of the game. Like I said in another thread, the collateral damage, if there is any, is mainly caused by the cheaters. Improvement in game desigen, like the tracking system I mentioned above, will certainly reduce the damage to minimal.
     
  9. RoycroftLS

    RoycroftLS Guest

    Removing duped items from the market without fixing the underlying dupe is fairly pointless... people can just create new accounts and continue duping. It takes debugging, testing, and more testing to fix a dupe and make sure that the fix doesn't break anything else. And all this testing has to take place internally, obviously they can't throw up a test shard and ask players to see if they can still dupe using method x. The result is that it takes some time to get a dupe fixed. But I would like to think that once something is reported, the devs are actively trying to fix it.

    Also, some people have practically become professional dupers. They know the ways to effectively filter the duped items and the gold obtained as to not raise suspicion. It's very difficult to catch someone who knows all the ways they could possibly be caught.

    People complained when houses were "owned by OSI" for months on end, and people complained when cheater's houses were reduced to rubble that didn't allow a new house to be placed. Ideally, yes, there should be some grace time in between the time an account is banned and the items are removed, but doing so creates twice as much work for the devs. And if you believe what the devs have said, the only people they punish by banning are people who are guilty beyond any doubt.

    It's important to realize that the rules of conduct and terms of service state that EA can take away anything at any time. And the devs have established that items that are taken away are very rarely (if ever) given back. If those company practices (and the rare chance that all your items could go poof by mistake one day) are not acceptable to you, you have the right to take your business elsewhere.

    I am okay with them not listing specifically what items and in what amounts cause the bannings. Doing so would give the dupers even more information to narrow down exactly how much they could get away with and not get caught. And again, if the majority of these people were caught with ridiculous amounts of items, what good would it do to waste the time listing out all such items? I'd rather that time be spent on more productive measures, like trying to prevent further dupes from happening.
     
  10. Strawberry

    Strawberry Guest

    They can clear the co-owner list and lock the house until the investigation is completed. Try to imagine, just for a moment, that EA might have made a mistake with even one account. It can't be fixed now, because they were so hasty.

    If everyone is willing to admit that EA's mistakes in the programming of this game allowed the bugs to happen, why are people so reluctant to imagine that EA could make mistakes in other areas? A grace period allows wrongly accused players time to appeal their banning.
     
  11. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    LOL @ timely manner
     
  12. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    Fixing the underlying dupe bug addresses something different than leaving the duped items available on vendors for days and days on end. This is about sparing the players who would wander into those duped items the question of whether or not to buy them. It's not fair to the players, plus its not smart for the big picture, if the Devs know that some poisonous items are there for sale and they allow them to sit like that. In the absence of a SPECIFIC warning or the outright removal of the items, people will buy them, it's the nature of the market (think: dog treats lying on the sidewalk). Letting them sit for sale, and sit, and sit, knowing that the players who buy them are setting themselves up for a ban, isn't a good way to handle it.

    If the punishment for buying a number of duped items is going to be banning, then removing known-duped items before players can buy them is both intelligent and an act of kindness.

    - Extra work on the part of someone doing the banning (in the form of additional documentation and feedback) is not a prime consideration in the line-up of priorities in regard to this. Maintaining the confidence and trust of the playerbase is more important.

    - Even if players DID believe that all of those people are guilty beyond any doubt (which they don't), it doesn't affect the trust problem that develops from handling it this way. They want to feel secure in the knowledge that their little houses and collections and perceived possessions won't be irreversably stomped into the ground with no chance of appeal. The insta-delete-everything way of handling it takes that feeling of security away. If they don't have it they feel conflicted and, for lack of a better word, afraid. Those kinds of feelings make it all the easier to get rid of your stuff and get out.

    That's too literal an interpretation for players to walk around and keep as part of their perception on a minute-to-minute basis.They would, indeed, all leave if this perception was first and foremost in their minds. Part of what people enjoy about this game is, obviously, the interaction with and perceived ownership of items and housing.

    Their perception of the items truly belonging to EA and not to the players (and the possibility of those things being snatched away from them) can only go so far without violating the reasons that the players are here. Being willing to accept the deletion of everything you own at any time is way over the top, it's not compatible with the reasons players are here.

    At the point when someone has been banned for something like this, it becomes necessary to explain exactly which items were inappropriate because without that information, a potentially innocent player is left with nothing to attempt to debate, explain, or question. Whether or not the accused player is actually innocent is NOT the important point. The issue is that the remaining, unbanned players perceive that the others were not taken seriously in their appeal . They naturally picture themselves, in the future, maybe ending up in the banned player's position due to a mistake and having no real recourse. This damages the person's trust.

    The dupers trying to get a sense of how many things they might stash on a particular character is a secondary consideration compared with this.



    It's good that you're personally taking what happened pretty well. But I also think that your reaction (or lack thereof) is different from what I know many players to be experiencing.
     
  13. Anakena

    Anakena Seasoned Veteran
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    The main problem is that the dupers use probably dummy accounts for duping. If you want to catch the real duper's accounts you have to follow the trails. Unfortunately, that means that duped items come on the market.

    EA considers that those who knew or should have known that they were buying duped item should be banned as well. The problem is where to draw the line : someone owning 10 duped valorite hammer should have no doubts about them while someone owning only one could be a just a victim of the laundry process.
     
  14. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    What's to prevent someone from spending some RL cash and buying 10 off of a vendor? I think my friend actually did something like this. He didn't perceive a danger in it, he trusted the market, and that if the things were there and available for public sale that things would work out fine.

    In his case things did happen to work out fine, he wasnt banned, but he also happened to have burned the hammers right after he got them. It seems that he might have been banned if he'd had them on his person for any length of time instead of 'consuming' them. These kinds of ambiguities don't help. I don't know if his head was almost on the proverbial chopping block and thinking that it might have been makes me uncomfortable.
     
  15. Anakena

    Anakena Seasoned Veteran
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    yes it is a problem when you draw such a line : either you don't want to catch innocents but then you let big fishes escape, either you want all the big fishes but then you know you will catch innocents.

    It is a choice and this is why in such case you need a strong individual assessment of each case.

    If you take the case of your friend, he had the typical behaviour of a consumer as he burned the hammers when he got them. So he was safe. If he had simply stored the hammers he would have been suspect and probably banned. This does no of course help trading as there is now way for a legit buyer to know if he buys a duped item. On the other hand it is here a one shot operation. This will not happen every friday.
     
  16. RoycroftLS

    RoycroftLS Guest

    If the devs had enough manpower to concurrently fix the dupe and remove items from the market, I would assume that they would do so. But Jeremy has stated that the latest dupe has been fixed for a while, and they are just now getting around to banning people. This implies to me that they don't have enough people to do everything at once, so they focus on getting the dupe fixed first.

    For every person that a specific warning would help, two other people would use that warning as a hint to try to find and exploit the dupe. It would also create paranoia and people crying wolf at each other (like what has happened the past couple days).

    But the point that keeps getting lost is, in order to have purchased enough items to get banned, you would have needed a substantial stockpile of gold... If you have been around long enough to get that much gold, you know that duping has been around for a while and are well aware of the warning signs with or without an official warning.

    The last time there was a round of mass bannings, Wilki followed up every appeal himself and found a single person who was innocent. That implies over a 99% success rate at someone deserving being banned. That's enough to gain my confidence and trust.

    You're never going to get a 100% success rate, no matter how many extra steps and precautions that you take. And personally, I'm more secure in the finality of the message that immediate deletion sends. If you cheat, your stuff will be removed without prejudice.

    I am comfortable in understanding that the items in game do not belong to me. In my view, the game is more of a tool to help me interact with my friends and give us something to do while we chat. I have enough items to be able to do most of the activities in game and have fun while doing them. I don't view the items themselves as having any possible value outside the game, and as such I would never try to buy or sell them for real-life money. The moment you try to make a profit at the game, you are taking all the fun out of it. If I got innocently banned from the game, I would be more upset at not being able to interact with my friends than I would be at the loss of a few pixels. Maybe I am in the minority with my views, but I don't think they are unreasonable.

    The fact that the last time around someone was reinstated is some proof that the appeal process is taken seriously. But guilty people have nothing to lose in an appeal, and every piece of information you give them is another excuse they will try to use to get their accounts back. The first place many of the guilty people would take this information is to the UHall forums, where they would lie some more knowing that EA cannot publicly respond. It would just create more confusion than it would help the couple people who were innocent.

    I guess it comes down to the balance of properly punishing the guilty and protecting the rights of the innocent. Some people need concrete proof that justice is being fairly served. I prefer to trust in the devs and their decisions.

    If you have ever spoken to someone who has attended a town hall meeting, you will hear how passionate the devs are about the game. I can't think that people who are so enthusiastic about the game would deprive another player of the opportunity to play that game without a very good reason, and without giving them a fair appeal.
     
  17. Speetz13

    Speetz13 Guest

    I think their aren't enough pre-security mesures that keep people from mass-duping everything they can get their hands on without getting noticed. Thats why now you see so much duped crap in luna and everything is so utterly obvious (at least right before the bannings) was because it was so gradual. At first it was like... Hmm i wonder if these people found a dupe. Then they didn't get cought. No one did for a looooong time.

    Their should be some measures in place that keep people from duping thousands of items without getting away with it. Obviously there is nothing they can really do about the dupe itself as quickly as everyone, including them, would like. But letting people make trial accounts that they can dupe stuff, turn in BODs and all of that does not help and makes the situation a lot more serious, a lot faster, since they can dupe so much without much noticing. Shard transfers is another thing.

    http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=93966 We were disscussing a lot of these things and some VERY good ideas that never were readiy shot down. Maybe someone should sticky it, have everyone throw in ideas about how we could feel safer, more efficient.

    I mean, how hard would it be, and im actually asking this question as I'm not really sure, to have one or two people, once a day at a random time, just check out Luna and some other big vendors, maybe switching things up occasionally. After you go to a lot of the bigger vendors spots, and listen to what players have to say about other vendors, this should take about 30 minutes? Maybe more? But deffinately not so much time that it's inconcievable to do. And then, these vendors and such could be deleted,items held by EA/Mythic/GM. Then, a small investigation could go into them. It seems they are guilty, they get banned/suspended. A week goes by, they are found to guilty beyond at least any evidence, and i do believe the limit should be a week, no longer and no less either, depending on EA's own work schedule, they get perma banned.

    The people who trade these in mass amounts should be dealt with the same way. The people who trade one or two, or are in possesion of multiples, should be first suspended for oh I don't know a week? Or can it only be up to 72 hours? But along with this suspension all of the duped items should be deleted, along with ALL of that players money, on all accounts. All of it. I think this is a very fair way to deal with someone without destroying EVERYTHING they have, and plus it gets the gold out of the economy. Then, for either of these, you only get one chance, after the first offense, any other duping related offense and your out, all accounts, banned 4 life. And as other people have said EA should probably ban credit cards AND IPs and whatever else they got.

    So what do people think of that?

    And also, I agree with the OP that EA should be at least pretend to do the things we want, because really this is only a matter of feeling better and safer. We could all be perfectly safe, but that doesn't matter when we don't feel that way. That's how people quit, and it's very easy for EA to be sure of it, all they gotta do is talk a bit more. Simple.
     
  18. Vyrquenox

    Vyrquenox Guest

    I have an inkling they won't very easily tell the banned players why or what they had that got them banned because they are sure these people will float that response around on boards. Their official response to this would be that they don't want the other dupers to be warned of what to hide, but in reality there is also a smidgeon of they don't want to ever tell you anything you might use against them. Just imagine that they are on the stand when they say anything to you, so their response is going to be whatever they can say to tell you they won't say anything. This is also why they have a database of lawyer written quips that get auto responded to you no matter what. Even if a person reads your email, their ability to reply to it is probably a list of choices, like click C that quip gets sent and the name of the person who choice choice C is added at the bottom following a "thank you for whatever etc" line.
     
  19. Vyrquenox

    Vyrquenox Guest

    I am comfortable in understanding that the items in game do not belong to me. In my view, the game is more of a tool to help me interact with my friends and give us something to do while we chat. I have enough items to be able to do most of the activities in game and have fun while doing them. I don't view the items themselves as having any possible value outside the game, and as such I would never try to buy or sell them for real-life money. The moment you try to make a profit at the game, you are taking all the fun out of it. If I got innocently banned from the game, I would be more upset at not being able to interact with my friends than I would be at the loss of a few pixels. Maybe I am in the minority with my views, but I don't think they are unreasonable.
    _______________________

    That reminds me of an interesting way of looking at things. I take 5 books and write a short story in the set. Now technically, who owns that short story the moment I write it in their books?
     
  20. Xalan Dementia

    Xalan Dementia Slightly Crazed
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    Plain and simple----- non of the banned players have been able to prove innocence, so why side with them for no reason? Maybe they didnt do the duping, but they probably bought some high end dupes on the cheap thinking theyd use them quick and be fine. The thing everyone needs to understand is, ITS A GAME! you cheat, you lose.
     
  21. Zofinur

    Zofinur Guest

    Tell me how?
    EA wont´t give details. Even not to the banned players.
    Just canned responses.

    *signed*
    (As long as it can be turned around to: "You don´t cheat, you don´t have to lose")
     
  22. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
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    I disagree here.....I'm damn sure EA did it's homework before deleting houses, and all that stuff. Those screaming innocence, must have done something wrong, and are lying to not only the entire viewing crowd, but themselves as well.

    EA was sued in the past and some guy in japan got his stuff back.....I can't see them making that mistake twice.

    As far as these psychic wannabes, if you know so well that UO is going kaput and warhammer tokens are on the horizon, post some lottery numbers then.

    later
     
  23. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    It's impossible to seriously 'prove' innocence in a situation like this. This is the nature of the thing and it can't be used as any sort of barometer here.

    This isn't a case of siding with them. This is sitting back, observing how they are being handled (ban with all items deleted on the spot and no details provided regarding porported "multitudes of illegal items"), and then picturing myself somehow ending up in their situation and being the one to make the same claims.

    We have people here on the boards saying they did nothing wrong and EA refusing to list the "bad" items they had. This isn't how the non-dupe-hoarding players would want to be treated, and it pokes a gigantic hole in EA's perceived credibility and sensibility.