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Third Party Cheat Detection - Two Strikes

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Llewen, May 19, 2010.

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  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I'm starting a new thread because the thread I wanted to respond to was locked. But I think this is an important topic and I feel that what I have to say needs to be said very clearly.

    I hate cheating. I really do. I want all cheaters gone from the game, 13 years ago. I really do.

    Having said that the TOS has never been enforced in UO, and very few people have ever been banned, if any, for using third party cheats. People have been banned for duping, and other obvious violations of the TOS, but for using "The-Program-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named" and other third party cheats, never that I know of. As a result, an awful lot of people use them - an awful lot.

    I don't have numbers to throw around, I just know from talking to people in game. Even a lot of clean players use search sites which depend on "The-Program-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named" to gather their information. And I know an awful lot of loyal paying clients, people who are in their real lives nice, law abiding folks, that use "The-Program-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named" to do things like bods, train skills, etc.

    My point here isn't to point the finger, just to raise a flag of caution. I welcome the new third party cheat detection, and I hope it works, I really do. I want third party cheats gone, even if it does close down the search sites, whose services I myself use (I hope that their functionality is replaced somehow, or they are allowed to continue operating, but that isn't the point of my post).

    I realize a lot of people don't agree with me, but I don't want the implementation of third party cheat detection to result in a mass banning of over half the player base. And the problem is the ones that will be caught are the casual cheaters, not the hard core hackers, because they aren't generally as connected to the communities that would make people aware that a big change is in the works.

    All I am asking for is that it is a two strike system. The first time you get a stern cyber lecture, and perhaps a 24 - 72 hour ban. Please don't make the first ban a permanent one, because you will be catching the wrong people. Most of the people you will catch the first time around are the ones who will change their behaviour when they find out the TOS is being enforced.

    I realized that many here on these forums have no sympathy for cheaters, but I think that there is enough blame for the current situation in UO, vis a vis cheating, to cover an awful lot of people, and if you want my opinion the devs in UO's past really are the ones I blame the most because they were the ones that allowed cheating, and the use of third party cheats, to become part of UO's game culture. Unfortunately we can't ban them.

    I realize also that the devs want to give the developers of third party cheats as little warning as possible, and not give them a chance to figure out ways of getting around the cheat detection. But the fact is they are going to have that opportunity regardless.

    Third party cheat detection is hopefully going to be a permanent addition to UO, and the developers of cheats are going to have a great deal of time to try to find a way around that third party cheat detection. Allowing "two strikes" isn't going to change that. It is going to be a game of cat and mouse from here on, and the devs are going to have to have produced a very robust cat to win that war.
     
  2. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    The proper procedure here is to ask one of the mods of this forum or the mod who locked the thread if starting a new thread is ok!
    other than that I have nothing to say at this time ;-)
     
  3. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    Personally, I believe that although it's good to see effort being made to prevent "cheating" where possible, they've got to connect all the links in the chain.

    I've never used any third party progs to play UO. I've never felt the need to. It's not deminished my enjoyment of the game in any way.

    No amount of anti-cheating software will ever be effective, without effective and correct enforcement of the games ToS.

    Problem is, through personal experience and those shared by others here, I have little faith in the enforcement side of things, such as GM activity and customer care responses.

    The whole needs to be addressed fully for it to work. One part is a good step forward, but it's got to tie in with everything else to be a success.

    As an aside though, forum users here have raised some valid points about issues such as progs to aid resizing of the game window with the classic client, or functions of the classic client which aren't available with the EC. There will always be borderline issues because of there being two clients.
     
  4. If the devs announce that third-party program detection is going live on the log-in screen...why do you need any further warnings?

    It seems to me if you know you are cheating, and you know they are banning cheaters...continuing to cheat is asking to be banned.

    I have to say, I am concerned about what removing scripters is going to do to the game's population, but I am more concerned about what will happen if they don't remove them. An awful lot of damage has already been done to the game by cheaters, who knows...it may be too late to correct it, but I still think it needs to be addressed once and for all.
     
  5. Demonous

    Demonous Rares Fest Host | Ches Jul 2010
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    I am pretty excited about the 3rd party detection program, the one thing I'm curious about is why is it being introduced 10 or 11 years too late? was it really that difficult to implement when so many other games have a 3rd party detection?

    Pros:

    1. People will finally be on a level playing ground pvp wise for the first time in years, I cannot wait for this because I've gotten killed by so many people that i know speedhack and that i know run programs to aid them with chugging potions, using a trapped box, apples, etc. I haven't been a dominant force in pvp in a long time and i think I'll be doing a lot better once this kicks in.

    2. People will not be running scripts to farm killing monsters all day and generating more gold into the game, this is a very good thing for gold value.

    Cons:

    1. The price on resources such as wood and ingots is going to go through the roof

    2. it will be harder to locate items on vendors

    Now as far as punishment goes, i don't think people should ever be permanently banned for running a 3rd party program. If they are running UO and turn on a third party program, they should receive a message saying please stop your 3rd party program or you will lose connection in 2 minutes, or something of the sort and just keep doing that every time they try. I know in World of Warcraft it does not even allow you to log on if you have a 3rd party program running
     
  6. THIS... :thumbup1:
     
  7. Percivalgoh

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    You forgot that there will be lots of IDOCs and housing space opening up as a Pro. Now I am not a pvper but I have done it a little long ago and I look forward to this for the sake of the pvpers although I am betting this won't be any big fix for pvp. I am also glad that script miners and loggers will (hopefuly) be stopped and that mining and logging can become useful professions once again. It won't likely have any impact on my gameplay unless I luck out and find an IDOC that no one else found.
     
  8. Demonous

    Demonous Rares Fest Host | Ches Jul 2010
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    if this is implemented the way i think it will be, it will affect pvp greatly, many players have only scripted their pvp for years and they know no other way, they dont know how to change weapons manually while fighting someone, they don't know how to get off of their mount, shoot and arrow at someone to dismount them and have their mount attack the dismounted guy without a script, they dont know how to chug pots, eat apples, use a trapped box without scripts, Im excited to see these people that have called themselves
    "good" pvpers for the last few years all start dropping like flies and finally let the legit pvpers dominate.

    As far as im concerned, if you're using a script to pvp, it is not you pvping. You should not take pride in any kill you make if you don't do it on your own.
     
  9. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Is this some kind of joke?

    All of this can be accomplished legally through legitimate hardware such as mice, N52s, macro keyboards, Killer NICs, etc.
     
  10. EXACTLY why we don't need cheats and 3rd party programs.
     
  11. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    So you're saying that a N52 can detect that you've been paralyzed/poisoned and automatically pop your trapped box or chug a potion?

    The big difference is having these actions done automatically versus still needing to hit a button.

    You're not fooling anyone. Stop trying to cloud the issue, we all know where you stand on cheating.
     
  12. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Oh really? So its just a morality thing, not really how it affects the game thats important?

    It should all be up to who has the biggest wallet who wins?
     
  13. Schuyler Bain

    Schuyler Bain Lore Master
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    You really are trying to sell this idea (hardware as legal cheating)... I admire your sticktoitiveness if nothing else.

    *tips hat*

    And in case it is unclear I COMPLETELY disagree with your line of thinking.
     
  14. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    So you're saying that a real player can't detect when they're paralyzed? LOL.

    A real player with the proper tools can react much faster than a script, a script is slower than a real persons reaction, its just more convenient, especially for those who don't have so quick reaction times.

    Irrelevant difference, either way its happening, its the effect that YOU have to deal with, as you cannot see what happens behind the screen.
     
  15. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    I didn't say legal cheating, I said the same effects can be accomplished.

    You guys need to make up your minds if its the concept you're against or the actual effect of the cheating you're against.

    The guy was complaining about getting pwned in PvP, anti-cheating won't change that he will STILL get pwned.
     
  16. Lefty

    Lefty Lore Keeper
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    Prior to Trammel there was a lot less scripting. We had the Councilor program and GM's were quick to address situations. Besides this the population of PKs and thieves helped regulate these issues also.
     
  17. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Will be interesting to see how good the system really is then and what measures they take.
    :)
     
  18. Demonous

    Demonous Rares Fest Host | Ches Jul 2010
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    i feel bad for people that need all those extra specialized gaming keyboards and such to play, i have a regular laser mouse and a regular keyboard, good to go
     
  19. Alvinho

    Alvinho Great Lakes Forever!
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    What I am worried about is a file the same size as the cheating files being flaged and actions taken when no cheating files exist, after all antivirus use file sizes and one of the parameters to flag a suspoeected virus/trojan
     
  20. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    You are dense.

    The point is that all your fancy equipment still requires you to hit a button, but a script automates the process, freeing a player up to do other things.

    There is a difference, a huge freaking difference.

    You really need to take a reading comprehension course, instead of just replying with nonsense to up your post count.
     
  21. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Most people must not know, to the advanced user the program is going open source.

    I suspect the people who use this program to keep a revenue stream coming in are more than capable of updating their own version or at least paying someone to do it for them.

    Scripters never really hurt my version of UO (PvP). If they are bad enough to use a script for PvP then they aren't much of a threat.

    Speedhacking has always urked me though, so I look forward to the removal of that.
     
  22. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I have a strange saddening feeling, that said detection system will just be something in the game to flag repetitve actions, like scripters, but will have no bearing on anything else. i hope im wrong.
     
  23. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Well, let's look at this as it's likely to happen. The dumbest scripter programs used by the uncleansed masses are likely to break for a few days after the publish, like they often do. So the first bans won't hit the dummies en masse as seems to be suggested here. And we're basing their "value" as customers on the presumption that these accounts are actually being paid for, their monetary value might not be super high. But that's another story.

    Either way, when those scripters go to get the next version of said program(s) I'm sure they'll find a wee note explaining what's just happened. If they download said program(s) after that, (and the inevitable hoo-ha on the forums) then I'm sorry but for stupidity alone they need to be banned straight off. I realise that sounds uncaring and harsh, but really cheats need to be scared of the consequences before they'll feel compelled to stop.

    Wenchy
     
  24. Splup

    Splup Guest

    I just hate going through zillion vendors with all kinda crap trying to find the right item :sad2:

    But otherwise really nice if they actually get rid of cheats finally.
     
  25. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Even if it looks for repetitive action 'that program' comes with a random number generator.

    If that happens I give it 24 hours before someone has created/posted a subroutine that can be called from any script to add randomized actions to avoid detection.
     
  26. There's more to it than that...but I suppose this is a danger. Still, the off chance that someone just might be running a program that just happens to have the exact same size, exact same file names, exact same reg entries, etc. is so remote that I think the end result is worth it.
     
  27. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well this wasn't the central topic of the thread that got locked, it was just an answer to one of the posts in it, so I didn't see it as an issue...
     
  28. Mapper

    Mapper Crazed Zealot
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    Ideally I'd prefer the client stops the scripts, not just detects then bans, We can't afford to loose any more players.
     
  29. Shamus Turlough

    Shamus Turlough Lore Master
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    I locked the last thread, and am getting reports on this one already. Either start conversing in a civilized manner, or I will lock this one too and give some people a vacation from the boards.
     
  30. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Someone else who understands what is really going on in pvp. I've been saying this for a while, the real problem in pvp isn't "speed hacks" it is scripts.

    As usual you are just throwing up a smoke screen for cheaters everywhere, spreading misinformation, and trying to obscure the real issues. There is a big difference between what you can do with a programmable input device, and what can be done with "The-Program-Which-Shall-Not-Be-Named". And to claim that the Killer NIC is some kind of a cheat, or can accomplish anything which could potentially be considered cheating, is flat out ridiculous.
     
  31. ingsmsico

    ingsmsico Visitor

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    I have a question for the hard liners here.

    if a person plays both regular UO shards, and free shards, should that person be banned just for having the program on their computer, or actually using the programs while logged into an official shard?
     
  32. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    As long as you're not using the program while playing on an offical shard, then who cares.
     
  33. ingsmsico

    ingsmsico Visitor

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    but i thought u were a strict rulebook guy? according to the rules you can be banned for logging into a freeshard, let alone downloading illegal 3rd party programs.
     
  34. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    My apologizes for all the complaints you must be getting from certain little cry babies.

    They want everyone to agree with them that cheating is ok and when we don't their only recourse is to cry to mommy and daddy.

    What do you expect from a bunch of people who think that pushing 1 button to open a door makes UO unplayable.
     
  35. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    You need to go back and reread the rules because neither of the things you mentioned are bannable offenses.

    1. You can play a freeshard all you want, hell I've played a few in the past. Not bannable.

    2. You can download whatever in the hell you want, as long as you're not running it and the UO client at the same time. Not bannable.
     
  36. Tjalle

    Tjalle Grand Inquisitor
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    IMO we can always afford to lose cheaters.

    But yeah, I guess many of the people who uses such programs might not even know that they´re not allowed by EA. I´m sure many don´t read the boards or follow anything outside the game, they just log in and play.

    Some friend might have just given them the program saying "Use this, it will make your gaming easier" and they took it and went on with their gaming. Perhaps one warning/suspension but not more. Then it´s ban time.

    I can´t wait to see what will happen with this... :popcorn:
     
  37. ingsmsico

    ingsmsico Visitor

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    no, I want you to stop name-calling and spewing personal attacks so we can actually get at the heart of the issue. it's one of the rules I actually agree with on this forum. I've already broken your hard line stance by getting you to admit you don't care if people play free shards.

    next, explain to me why you care if someone macros a skill (without you even knowing about) or pushes a button five thousand times (also, without you even knowing about it)? and please come up with something besides how proud it makes you to push a button 5 thousand times.
     
  38. ingsmsico

    ingsmsico Visitor

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    You will not attempt to play Ultima Online on any service that is not controlled or authorized by Electronic Arts.

    You will not create, use, play on or provide any server emulator or other service where Ultima Online may be played.
     
  39. Invalid

    Invalid Guest

    Allow me to respond for him.

    "You're only posting that because you're a crybaby cheater!!1111one /drool"
     
  40. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Actually EA can ban for any reason.
    And playing UO on non EA shard is against the TOS, so basically illegal and bannable.

    But then why bother. If anyone likes free shards and pays for EA too then I guess ea can live with it.
    :)
     
  41. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    I can respond for myself, thank you very much.

    Honestly I did not know that they had that rule and wonder when it was put in place.

    I don't see how EA can enforce whether or not someone plays on a free shard. They cannot control what anyone downloads on their own computer. It is interesting that they even have that rule, considering that they have no way to enforce it and I doubt that if it came down to it they probably wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on, because if they did why have they not gone after these freeshard operators?

    As for the macroing of skills question. Yes it is cheating and it does effect everyone just as every other form of scripting effects everyone.

    The bottom line is that when you cheat you are giving yourself an advantage over players who do not cheat.
     
  42. ColterDC

    ColterDC Visitor

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    Unlike some people i can certainly admit when I've made a mistake.

    And if my account had been banned in the past for playing a free shard I would not be on here pancakes at EA, I would learn from my mistake and considering it would be the only mark on my account I'd have been back playing after my ban was up.
     
  43. Mapper

    Mapper Crazed Zealot
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    Seems a silly rule when you can download the client for free and use it for freeshards without ever paying EA for an account or anything.
     
  44. Percivalgoh

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    I'm guessing that freeshards aren't quite the loss of income that they were thought to be. Also the freeshard operators aren't breaking any rules unless they themselves play on the freeshard. Seeing as it is very difficult to determine if players are playing on freeshards they decided not to put too much effort at it. They could ban any player who plays on them but no action against the operator unless they are stealing code and from what I understand most of them aren't. They put up their own code and you use the Uo version you have on your computer so you can be banned but the operator did nothing bannable or illegal
     
  45. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    I must agree with Mapper.

    Using Speedhack is the worst 3rd party UO has ever faced and I do agree to have it and the harmfull other 3rd partys removed from use. KEY: USE not ban. We have lost a great deal of players, enough that if the last dregs of the players using this in ANY venture in UO will break the backs of the thin player base we have left. Speedhack has been the first of the problems the DEV have had to deal with, and I know of many more out there used. Look I come from a time when uoloop was given out on stratics and UO said it was ok then cause some nut found a way to abuse it poof it was placed on the no use list that I for one have never seen the whole listing of. Old players have been returning but dont know the list of 3rd partys not to use. Sorry some are not into reading the forums.

    Ladys and gentilmen we cant aford to loose many more players
    Im sad to say this forum is partal to blame.
    I have watched the changes from all this forum have done to the dev team over the years. I must congratulate all on wiping out a great deal of the players in UO with babble over the years of nit picking. Yes 3rd partys are bad to a point but the true problem is the preson behind the use of them. 12 years ago this game was for adults, no one under 18 was to play without parental supervision. This era 9 year olds now run freely if their parents pay the bill for a cheap babysitter the game has become.
    I know one thing 12years of Speedhack and UO DEV have yet to kill it but some poor crafter who is clueless gets baned for making sewing kits with uoloop to gain skill. The GM's of old DID nail speedhackers when they caught them(they were limited to having to seethe hacking) WE dont have those old GM's all are gone..
    1 key fighting is not playing its cheating to me, but its not illegal. You paid for top gaming components its your right to use them.
    I hate cheating as much as the rest of you but your just as guilty of the reasons many use them. Greed, Envy, Want of what the other has... all things young kids dont know how to control. (some adults are in same boat to be fair) The need to be top gun in PVP. I just want ot play UO in peace and quiet. With your pushing I soon will be the only one in the blody game who is playing not fighting
     
  46. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Macroing of skills is not illegal. that's why we have UOA,2d and EC macro system. They might be limited before you have to press a button again but there is plenty of hardware out there that allows this to be automatic.
     
  47. longshanks

    longshanks Guest

    I totally reject the statement that the removal of cheating will ruin the game.

    If anything, it will encourage more people to go to fel if they finally feel it is a level playing field. Many who don't cheat want no part in fel due to the competitive disadvantage they have immediately upon stepping out of yew gate. There are some really nasty programs out there right now that basically allow the cheater to totally focus on offense and if they get into trouble run at warp 5 off the screen.

    Second point regarding the prices of boards and ingots going up. Why is this such a bad thing. Like imbuing has done to the fort powder market, this will provide incentive for more people to play crafters.

    The end of the search vendor programs will allow people to focus on being more of a savvy merchant to move there wares. It will also give more reasons for auctions to occur as a way to move desireable items.

    All these things will serve to increase the interaction in the community, which is something I see many complaining about time and again on these boards.

    And if the said LEET pvp'r quits after the publish cause he can't survive given his advantage being taken away, don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

    out. :thumbup1:
     
  48. rayvowrath

    rayvowrath Guest


    Sure we can, if players are so dense they need to resort to cheating, then they should be banned!! No if's,,and's,,,or but's.

    You either want the problem of cheating addressed or you dont.
     
  49. Der Rock

    Der Rock Guest

    instant bann !
    NO room for excuses
    (oh sry my friend little brother accidentialy opend UO and XXXX-XX)

    ;)

    ZERO tolleranz !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    and: i love to loot IDOCS :danceb:
     
  50. ingsmsico

    ingsmsico Visitor

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    in what ways?
     
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