1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Thirst, Food and Sleep

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Zyon Rockler, Apr 11, 2009.

  1. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    Add (thirst) so characters become thirsty and need to drink. Different things could quench your thirst better than other things, such as, water, milk, alcohol. If a player doesn't drink they can die of thirst.

    Add (hunger) so characters become hungry and need to eat. Each stage of hunger could cause you to lose more and more strength. Strength could drop 3 points per hour or 10 points every 3 hours. This would not affect their hit points but would control your strength ability. In different stages you could receive different warnings.

    Add (Exhaustion) so characters become tired and need to sleep. After a 12 hour period of game play or more depending on strength a character would need to sleep. They would have to find a bed or make a camp. One minute for every hour they were awake they would need to sleep to fully replenish.

    A character could be seen sleeping in his bed but could not be harmed while sleeping. Also, logging out could be changed so a character would have the ability to sleep while logged off, this would bring them back refreshed.

    If a character did not sleep within the 12 hour period, then crafting and skill gain could become impossible, also, the gathering of ores and other resources could become difficult, making the character's abilities worthless without sleep.
     
  2. Ghost_Writer

    Ghost_Writer Guest

    Skill gain used to be associated with how hungry you were. They took that out many years ago. Now they don't want to effect eating habbits because there are time you don't want to be full, like when you need to eat enhanced fruit.

    as for
    That's joke right. Or at least not well thought out. You want us to have sit around and watch our character sleep for absolutely no good reason?? I don't care if it is only one minute per hour, I'm not going to find a place to park my character and watch it sleep... My characters get planty of sleep when I'm not playing them...
     
  3. Uh....no. :next:
     
  4. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    I thought they fixed it so that those types of foods did not fill you up, which means you could always eat enchanted foods without it affecting your hunger.

    As far as sleep, it would be very important for you to rest or you would suffer the consequences. The game needs to have realism. It's skills depend on it, as does it's growth. For you to sacrifice a few minutes for your character to rest would mean a great deal more to the game itself. An example would be: the camping skill. If someone in your party had camping then other characters could rest that were in your party. As it is now, camping doesn't mean anything, it's a worthless skill.

    Same thing with food, do you wanna buy some of my fish? I'll tell ya what i'll sell ya my fish. Oh you don't want it. So why should I go fishing? Sure once you have GM that all changes but what about until then? I think I have it pretty well thought out.

    What about faction penalties that make you stand around for 15 minutes without no function at all but a delayed timer. This is something that is not well thought out. Life always has options and if your roleplaying then there should always be options.

    These changes are important because they will affect many other roleplay features of the game because they are the basic core needs in real life, which means they will affect story telling and the way we perceive ourselves in the game.

    My ideas are simple. I'm just throwing out the idea for others to come up with better solutions. There are always better solutions on how to make things work and even if they never end up in the game, I would find it very interesting to see what some people think.
     
  5. You want realism in a game where we have dragons, naked pixies, and unicorns, not to mention robots?

    Can I have some of whatever it is you're smoking?
     
  6. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran 4H

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    7,539
    Likes Received:
    1,933
    Two reasons I would hate to see eating/drinking and sleeping requirements worm their way into UO are (1) the learning curve for newcomers to the game is already steep enough, and (2) the sleep requirement would make it even harder for groups of people to arrange group activities. I'm afraid I'd just give up the game for good the first time I heard someone say they couldn't participate in something because their character needs a nap....
     
  7. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    5,320
    Likes Received:
    528
    ...

    Add (thirst) so characters become thirsty and need to drink. Different things could quench your thirst better than other things, such as, water, milk, alcohol. If a player doesn't drink they can die of thirst.

    Add (hunger) so characters become hungry and need to eat. Each stage of hunger could cause you to lose more and more strength. Strength could drop 3 points per hour or 10 points every 3 hours. This would not affect their hit points but would control your strength ability. In different stages you could receive different warnings.

    Add (Exhaustion) so characters become tired and need to sleep. After a 12 hour period of game play or more depending on strength a character would need to sleep. They would have to find a bed or make a camp. One minute for every hour they were awake they would need to sleep to fully replenish.

    A character could be seen sleeping in his bed but could not be harmed while sleeping. Also, logging out could be changed so a character would have the ability to sleep while logged off, this would bring them back refreshed.

    If a character did not sleep within the 12 hour period, then crafting and skill gain could become impossible, also, the gathering of ores and other resources could become difficult, making the character's abilities worthless without sleep.


    And exactly WHAT BENEFIT would we get from this complication of the game?
     
  8. We'd be well rested and well fed when we went out to kill that fire breathing, magic casting dragon with a dagger....
     
  9. Ghost_Writer

    Ghost_Writer Guest

    This isn't a reality game it's fantasy game. You want perma death when you die? that's reality. SIMS is realty game, not UO. To expand on what Conner said, we have Elves, Gargoyles, cast magic and fight Proximus. If you see any parallels to reality in that...
     
  10. MorganaLeFey

    MorganaLeFey Guest

    Characters already lose stamina when they do or carry too much.

    Haven't you heard that eating too much is not good for your health? LOL

    Moderation is better.
     
  11. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2008
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    0
    Worth noting that traditionally, elves do not sleep. Instead they meditate, but even that's optional.

    (Though Vaarsuvius might've taken the rule a bit too far...)

    Eating standard foods gives you a stamina bonus. Allowing characters to eat as much food as they like would allow fighters to chug pig roasts.

    Food is extremelly easy to come by. Any human character can simply carry a spellbook with some LRC on it, and summon the stuff at will. An elf can do the same if there's a magery bonus on the book as well.

    You've gotta ask yourself, what's fun? In a game, that's far more important then logic.
     
  12. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    Most people might disagree that adding food, sleep and drink are not something that should be done. So be it. When you talk about reality you have to remember that your character's reality is real to them. For example: when you're on a boat you expect the boat should be on water, to me this is logical.

    If I said you were on a beach then I would expect you were to think about sand and the ocean. This is how we perceive and expect things to be. I believe UO's reality is reniassance, dark ages, when we had smiths. So, all those aspects should exist to your character. The fantasy part of the game are the pieces that are added to those realities.

    Another example: We have food, but we have no reason to eat. We have beds, but there is no reason to sleep and we have water, yet no one is thirsty. Even in a fantasy this would not be logical, therefore could not be perceived as being real.

    Another example: A door that does not open, steps that lead to no where, a song without music or sound. There's alot of philosphy involved so of course you could argue endlessly.

    What would a change like this do? Well, if food became important and different foods more so it would affect community. It would cause people to interact, places to eat would be popular. For example: magic food, could hold no substance.

    Places to sleep would be important, Inns could charge money.

    I'm not sure exactly what the changes would do but I feel there are to many unanswered questions that make me feel as if the game is incomplete. I don't think it's complicated, when our pets get hungry, we feed them and when they get tired we get off of them and walk with them. I don't think anyone would need to learn this, if you get hungry, you eat. If you get thirsty, you drink.

    But, I do believe that when we question reality we have to remember which reality we are talking about. Our characters live in a world and that world is made up of your character's reality and we live in a world where we perceive reality.
     
  13. RoseBlue

    RoseBlue Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 25, 2008
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just having read only the very beginning of the first post, I could'nt help thinking : "Oh! no! careful it doesn't end up in the awful "greening" of TSO (which I tried only very little).
    But, of course, depends on how it is done. But still, just CAREFUL :talktothehand:
     
  14. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2008
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    0
    See that Cu Sidhe in my avatar there? Do you know what it's "supposed" to be made out of?

    You might say "meat, flesh, bone, etc". It's not. Logic dictates that it is actually constructed of something quite different.

    A bandage.

    Yup.

    You see, one day, that poor critter died. Most disheartening and all that, but low and behold, it came back as a ghost! Yes, it's love for it's master (based on being feed a couple of times - apparently he likes food a heck of a lot more then a real life pet) kept it in this plane of existence, so much so that it's spirit was visible to the naked eye!

    Of course, a new body had to be made for it, and the raw materials used?... a bandage.

    Yeah, my character's knowledge of biology is just... that good.

    However, although the awesome properties of this bandage were such that a living body could be made from it, it was not enough! No, more bandages had to be slapped on this construct in order to restore it to it's former resilience!

    (Sorta like a big furry paper mache).

    And, to this very day, I have been slapping on more bandages whenever a chunk gets knocked off. In fact, I would wager that not a single bandage from that resurrection remains - I've glued many more into the pile since that fateful day!

    (My point is there is very little point in examining the logic of Ultima Online too closely. It only leads to madness. Stick to Bellisarios Maxim).

    They don't get hungry.

    That's not very effective. The only reason pets get tired is because they're either very low on health, or overloaded in the case of giant beetles. Either way, you'll have far better luck either healing the damage, or removing some of the weight.

    The exception to this rule are ethereal mounts. You know, those magical things that probably don't have to draw breath, let alone eat or drink! Yes, they are the only creatures that'll get tired carrying you about!

    Er, yes, that's what everyone's trying to tell you. Character reality does not have to match real reality. Character reality has to match whatever's fun. Constantly stopping play to eat/sleep/drink is not fun.

    I mean, if you seriously followed that line of thought through, next the stone masons would be making toilet bowls, and if characters failed to visit those regularly something TERRIBLE would happen.
     
  15. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    But still there is a reason or explanation given, you've made something real by giving it logic, even though it's fantasy and you made that part of the character's world. You told the character a story and now the dog has reason for being. You've also shown that it has purpose. It's just a story.

    When you log in, you would awake well rested. You would yawn and stretch, this too is a story. You would feel hungry and have something to eat. You might head out to chop some wood and become thirsty, so you would need to drink. To me this is fun because it completes the story, just like I have enjoyed reading your story.

    Pets might not get hungry but they do need to eat.

    I don't think there is a wrong or right. To you it might not be fun to need to eat but to others it might be adventureous and considering these are just the basic needs it could lead into other things. If you were to add hunger, you could have beings that would make you hungry. If you were to add sleep you could have creatures put you to sleep.

    Part of the reason I made this post is because it already does exist in the game. The code is already in for it. When you eat something it tells you the level of hunger and when you fill up it simply tells you, you can't eat anymore. So, why not make it so you must eat? It really seems to me like a matter of opinion.
     
  16. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    Let's add cancer and birth defects too. Fits with the OP's logic.
     
  17. Kiwillian

    Kiwillian Guest

    It just all sounds immensely tedious and boring. If you like micro-management go play an involved strategy game or something.

    Or maybe you'd enjoy that Russian RPG game, Pathalogic.
     
  18. red sky

    red sky Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    7
    This is an excellent idea to add to the game. It is realistic and would help a lot with fighting scripting. This needs to be added. I'm saddened to see all of the posts in opposition to this idea. It would add function to the food and drinks in the game and wouldn't be something that can be exploited or abused in a serious way. I see all of these posts that complain of the unattended scripting that goes and nothing that is a good way of stopping it. This seems like the best idea I've seen in a while and it adds more realism to the game. For all of you who seem to have no imagination and have lost all respect for role playing, shame on you. This player has come up with an awesome new addition to the game and all you can seem to do is tell them no and then state reasons that make no sense at all.
     
  19. Kiwillian

    Kiwillian Guest

    How do the reasons stated make no sense? People want to play a video game online, not real life 2.0. It's called escapism. I don't want to have to micro-manage everything I do to in order to play a game I pay a subscription for (or even one I don't), that is boring. I can do that **** in real life.

    Ask yourself why no other MMOs have this sort of thing in them and it should become clear. Despite sadistic roleplayers, no one wants this level of tedium, MMOs are tedious enough as it is.
     
  20. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2008
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    0
    A paradoxical story. There is no way a pet can be made of bandages, and yet no way it can be anything else.

    Again, I assure you, they do not.

    @red sky:
    Unfortunately scripts are just as capable of eating food as players are. They just don't complain about having to do so.

    If people wish to eat/drink/sleep as part of roleplay, let them. There's nothing in the game today that prevents them from doing so - It's simply that we are not forced to do these things.

    Those with "imagination" should have no problem with the game the way it is today.

    Note that forced eating would be a re-introduction. Back in the day, your character did indeed need to eat in order to live.
     
  21. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran 4H

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    7,539
    Likes Received:
    1,933
    The Sims Online ("TSO") was another of EA's MMOs. It was cancelled last summer after gradually losing a significant part of its population. Even something akin to a "shard merger" that pushed everyone into one location couldn't save it. In TSO, your character had to eat, sleep, bathe, use the toilet, and have positive interactions with other characters in order to survive and be able to gain in skills. I tried it for a few months until I absolutely couldn't stand it anymore. A few of the people I met while playing that game made it entertaining for a bit; but it was mind-numbingly tedious unless you were into constantly causing drama or stirring up trouble or enjoyed chatting about anything and everything all day long.

    If I ever see UO add mandatory requirements to eat, drink, eliminate, sleep, and/or interact with others, I'll walk away for good. I believe it would be the death-knell of the game to force people to spend a portion of the time they play engaging in such activities when there is no risk or reward associated with them. It's already difficult for a lot of people to find someone to do things with. A sleep requirement would make that problem even worse and in a small guild you might not ever be able to synchronize everyone's sleep cycles. And if you think the towns are empty now, think about what they would look like with a sleep requirement added in: either empty or full of bums sound asleep on the floor of the bank.
     
  22. red sky

    red sky Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    7
    Yes, I agree that maybe the severity of the changes from the OP would be too much for most. However, I find it very annoying when people post random non-sense posts without stating a legitimate reason for why something shouldn't be added. Maybe it just seems somewhat hypocritical for players to post and complain about scripting and cheating without trying to post or comment on any attempt that may have a good chance of halting the scripts that seem to plague our beloved Britannia.
     
  23. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    6,641
    Likes Received:
    1,163
    We don't need more complexity for basic things.

    We also don't need people to uncover an "ever-full" bug or script to go with the "ever-light" bug or script or whatever it is.

    -Galen's player
     
  24. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    5,320
    Likes Received:
    528
    ...

    The problem with the OP's idea apart from the sheer complexity of having to remember what you need to do when, which is the same reason why people who play "tabletop" RPGs like D&D will tend to ignore encumberance and food/drink rules, is the same problem that "house maintenence/tax" ideas have.

    There is NOTHING for the character to gain from having to do this inane procedure. By way of example, WoW doesn't FORCE you to rest your character, but if you do (by logging out or just hanging out in town), you gain a "rest bonus" to your combat XP gained.

    As I posted in my first response, what benefit would there be to going through the eat/drink/rest process that we don't already have? To maintain the "status quo"? Like house taxes... no thanks.
     
  25. RoseBlue

    RoseBlue Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 25, 2008
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    0
    ............and how about our dwagons getting dirty?..................
    "meer-meer-puff!"
    :lol:
     
  26. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    9
    I don't think having sims-like food/rest/bathroom counters are a good idea, but I do think that we need some sort of new fatigue counter. With all the various health/mana/stamina regeneration abilities now available in the game, there is very little "wear and tear" to cause a character to need to abandon a task. Aside from eventually wearing down equipment (which affects dexers more than others), or getting res-killed by a player or monster to the point where insurance drains your bank, there feels like there is a design hole.
     
  27. MorganaLeFey

    MorganaLeFey Guest

    Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.

    As for scripting etc... Instituting mundane chores won't stop the scripters, all it does is slows them down until they can add a few more lines of code to their proggies. At least that's my thoughts on it.
     
  28. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    5,320
    Likes Received:
    528
    ...

    As for scripting etc... Instituting mundane chores won't stop the scripters, all it does is slows them down until they can add a few more lines of code to their proggies. At least that's my thoughts on it.

    You're right. Regardless of the topic be it food/drink/rest or mining, there will be NO WAY for automated game systems to beat automated play-the-game systems.

    The ONLY way you stop scripting is a pro-active and aggresive policing of the game to find and remove people using illegal unattended scripts.
     
  29. RoseBlue

    RoseBlue Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 25, 2008
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    0

    No, sorry, I don't agree AT ALL.
    I don't think we have the slightest need of being FORCED to abadon ANY task we chose to do in-game.
    This would be HORRIBLE and this time I'm not laughing.
     
  30. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    9
    traumatized by nethack?
     
  31. Vertigo

    Vertigo Guest

    My chars are eating/drinking/sleeping when logged out. So there.
     
  32. RoseBlue

    RoseBlue Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 25, 2008
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    0
    :confused: was this in reply to me? sorry did'nt understand...
    I just said it would be terrible if we have to stop something we are doing or that we want to do in order to be forced to rest or something...
    And this is not laughable for me...

    (btw, I don't know what is "nethack", could you explain?)
     
  33. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    while these are some nice ideas, I think bugs in the already complex world of UO need to be addressed before adding even more complexity.

    At this point, nope ... not good for UO.
     
  34. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    9
    nethack is an old ascii dungeon exploration game where death-by-starvation was a common way for games to end. I sometimes forget it's not a part of everyone's gaming experience.

    My point about the design space is that with the speed that health/mana/stamina can be regenerated now, once a character is geared up, anything that doesn't kill them can be very quickly shrugged off. Even death doesn't slow down parties much (it can stop a lone character exploring off by themselves dead in their tracks although there are ways to mitigate it through virtues, spellweaving or gems). This means that the devs have few options to slow people down other than to smash them with overpowered monsters. If you had a fatigue resource that was harder to regenerate out in the field, it would allow for the creation of new kinds of challenges where death and destruction were not the only threat.

    (that said, I'm just tossing it out there - it adds complexity, it could very easily become annoying if used in the wrong way ... as I mentioned before, I don't think we need Sims-style tedium-generating character maintenance)
     
  35. RoseBlue

    RoseBlue Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 25, 2008
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    0
    ok ok so, in other words you agree with me and most of us ;)b
     
  36. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZzB78h0itQ

    I think using the Sims and micromanagement are alittle extreme. In the Sims, in a 24 hour period you would need to do close to 5,000 tasks. The Sims never learn, so you could never create a true simulation. Even so, the shelf space for RPGs is about 4 feet wide and for the Sims alone is about 5 feet. I don't have the figures but I imagine if you compared revenue you would probably poop your UO diaper!

    Why was it so popular? Probably because of the nudity and the ability to make love. Add this to UO and your wedding proposals would increase 100%.

    I think the idea is, is that nobody wants UO to become like the Sims. To me, these are two completely different types of games. Even though in UO we have tasks that must be repeated, some that even go to those levels.

    My vision would be to maintain a human reaction. For example: in a 24 hour period, you would have to rest somewhere after 12 hours and eat approximately 3 times, allowing a curve to max out at 4 times, if a player were to remain playing for 24 hours straight. Rest could be added for idle play.

    Log out would refresh your character 100% as long as it was done properly.

    Thirst could be directed at certain tiles. For example: desert tiles and water tiles, like being on a boat, would increase thirst. Maybe even inside deep dungeons.

    What would this do? I have no idea. Something like this would need to be tested.

    What could this do? The list is endless. Food could be given a range from .1 to 1,000. You would need to eat 1,000 apples to become full, or you could eat fish that was cooked by a GM Cook, that gave you 500 points towards hunger.

    So, the fisherman, the hunter, who need to have someone in their group with camping, bring back their food to the cook, who sells food to the community, who then need to rest at the Inn after purchasing something to drink.

    So, two items would be added to the backpack, food and drink and someone in your party would have some sleeping bags and kindling. So, it could make skills more important.

    It could affect the economy and the community by making Inns important and places that sell food could raise their prices, creating gold sinks.

    There is an endless list of possibilities. Should it be implemented now? In my opinion probably not. Should it be thought about for the future? Definitely.

    As far as scripting, the more difficult you make it for a scripter, even at the lower levels, the more the scripter needs to work, to earn what they are scripting for. This would definitely work as a check and balance, in my opinion.
     
  37. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2008
    Messages:
    850
    Likes Received:
    0
    Everyone's just repeating themselves now, including me. Oh dear oh dear. I told you this'd all lead to madness.

    This system is already in place.

    The whole hunger system used to also be in place too, but it was removed because no one wanted it.

    Not true at all. The only way you can make it harder for scripters is to either find a way to disable the Voldemort program, or find them on a case by case basis and ban as you go.

    Adding extra tasks for them to perform does the opposite; it helps them. This is because everyone else has to perform those tasks too, so everyone is getting slowed down. Most of the point behind scripting is to perform such mindless tasks over and over so the actual users don't have to.

    For example, if you suddenly told all the lumberjacks "hey, you have to keep stopping to go eat/sleep/drink", they'll just lose interest and we'll have less lumberjacks. Suddenly scripters are producing a greater percentage of the available wood supply.

    This is the perceived reason for the recent opening in the gold floodgates: To try and aim the supply of the stuff at players, so that they'd rather get it by playing the game then just leaving it all to the gold sellers.