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This is not meant to start a debate, it's simply my opinion.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Fat Lip, Aug 11, 2010.

  1. Fat Lip

    Fat Lip Guest

    I have tried & tried to play the enhanced client, but I just don't like it. First, I'd like to make a couple lists; starting with what I do like about the EC.

    What I do like about the Enhanced client:
    - Macro System
    - Some Creature Art
    - Zoom
    - Ability to have mods created by the community

    What I don't like about it:
    - Mounts: players look silly sitting on all mounts compaired to the classic client. It's like their legs are too long or somehting: actually, I think it has to do with the character sprite (model), but I'll get to that in a minute.

    The beetles that we can ride don't look as good as the ones from the classic client. I would like them to look like the classic client beetles.

    Chargers of the Fallen look awesome in the classic client, but look like they're wearing a table cloth in the enhanced client - what's up with that?

    - Character sprites/models: They look too wire-ish and scrawny - there is no defenition to their bodies. This creates a whole host of problems for item/armor models (which i'll get to in a minute). I would like to see the character sprites with more defined body parts (size-wise - slightly more bulge to these parts to make them not look so lanky), such as bigger biceps & triceps, thigh regions, chest width (left to right) for males, chest depth for females (thats right, breasts, but nothing ridiculous. There are other games that have defined female chests that are still rated "E" for everyone and "T" for teen so there should not be a problem for UO).

    - Armor & Items (Sprite & Paperdoll): The armor for both men and women looks sub-quality (not very good). It doesn't look like armor to me, it looks like tight-fitting spandex streched over a scrawny person. Example: the paldurons (Shoulder parts) for leather armor are too small. The less-then-broad shoulders of the character may have limited the artists when they did the artwork for these; I don't know, and I'm not trying to point fingers, but these graphical low-points makes it hard for me to get into playing the enhanced client.

    Sandles: OMFG! Look real bad in enhanced client. They look cool in the classic client, why didn't you keep them similar? You can't even see them under a robe in the enhanced client (you can in the classic :) ). Sandles in the classic client stood out, they were noticable, and they had mass to them. They do not in the enhanced client - they look like flip-flops. I would like to see the sandles wrap around the calf a bit (like in classic) have thicker bands around the calf and foot so the color stands out. Also have them show up over armor legs.

    Some of the weapons look too small in the paperdoll and in the game; not at all like fantasy RPG weapons should look IMO. Make them bigger and more defined. What is the difference in-game between a club and a tetsubo? Not too much in the enhanced client.

    Runebooks and spellbooks don't look like books when you open them. This was one of the things I thought was neat from the classic client. This should be included into the game as a standard, not a community contribution. After all, you can only have one UI mod running at a time so it should not be wasted on this.

    Get the funding to make these changes please. If the engine is limiting you, get a new one. You're doing hardware upgrades, so please do some software upgrades too. If you're going to cancel the classic client, I would suggest a complete rebuild of the Enhanced Client; I don't want to play the EC. Spare no expense on making a better client, or spare no expense on improving the classic client.

    I hope that you take this thread in good taste, as it was ment to be an outlet for my aggrivations, and a partial suggestion list. I meant no offence to anyone in posting this, and I apologize if anybody has taken this badly.

    The next thread I intend on making is going to address the general lack of love for the Classic Client.
     
  2. Why not just add to the one that is already open?
     
  3. Fat Lip

    Fat Lip Guest

    ok, I didn't see that. I'll go over there quick and post some stuff then.
     
  4. Serafi

    Serafi Babbling Loonie
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    I agree with what you said about the graphics etc. but I use them both. So much in fact that when I set myself by the comp and want to play UO I open Classic first with UO assist, then EC - cause I know I will be needing them both during the evening.

    For me they have different use, according to what I am doing. Anything decorat.. erish I use the classic client. It`s easier to see how things look, it`s easier to place things down etc. Same for plants. Nothing beats some of the UO assist agents like "Use once" or after a shopping spree "Organize agent". General crafting and imbuing I also use the classic for. If I need to go through lots of characters I use the classic as well. Faster to log in I feel, and faster to change.

    However - if I so much as think about hunting, I log into EC. Easy macros, easy to find healers to get rezzed, easy to loot, easy targeting cycling through targets, zoomable etc. I also use EC when I want to turn in loads of bods. There is no way I want to go pixel hunting in that dark backpack in the classic client. I am now so used to playing in both I don`t think I could choose between them anymore.

    Edit: I use Legacy btw, it gives me just enough classic feel to appease me. Books look like books when you open them etc.
     
  5. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    So you want to offer criticism without anyone else offering an opposing view? Most of your criticism boils down to, I don't like the way "x" looks. Overall, in my opinion, the art is better in the enhanced client, with a few exceptions. But that's always a "comfort thing", and a matter of you giving yourself the time to get properly comfortable with the new client.

    And something tells me you didn't give the client as much of a chance as you appear to have from your first line, or you would know that what I quoted above is incorrect. Not all mods are compatible with each other, but you can certainly use more than one mod at a time. I'm currently using Lucis Interface, with Decor's icon pack, and the item properties mod.

    There are three major UI mods that I know of, and all three of them are a combination of a number of other smaller mods.

    edit: And if you want my opinion, if I was forced to go back to the classic client, I would probably close my accounts. I am very comfortable with the enhanced client now, and I am a better player because I use it than I used to be. In my opinion the enhanced client is superior to the classic client, and not by a small margin either.
     
  6. canary

    canary Guest

    Tell that to the male paper doll and copied celebrity faces as options.
     
  7. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And in my opinion, that is hardly a big deal. I don't exactly spend hours gazing lovingly at my male paper doll, but I do spend hours playing UO, and the enhanced client makes that experience more enjoyable for me. And while we're on that note, I happen to like my elf with his vampire face. It appeals to the goth in me... ;)
     
  8. canary

    canary Guest

    And that's fine, as that is your opinion, to you. I'm just pointing out that there are LOTS of posts here on stratics, many by EC users, who absolutely hate the KR/ EC artwork. So in essence you are telling some people who have used the client now for... 3 years?... that if they are given time they will be OK with it, which simply isn't the case.
     
  9. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And I'm telling you that very few, if any, of those who "absolutely hate the KR/ EC artwork" have used the client for three years. In fact I would wager that most of those who "absolutely hate the KR/ EC artwork" have hardly used the EC for a full day's worth of game time, let alone three years, and the majority of those who have used it for more than that amount of time and still "absolutely hate the KR/ EC artwork" haven't used the EC in periods of time extended sufficiently to even start to become proficient with it.

    Most of those I know who have used the EC for an extended time, long enough to really get used to it, would never go back to the CC. And in fact you are lumping the KR and the enhanced client together, which is a fine example of the level of ignorance involved in the debate. The "world" art for the EC is virtually identical to the classic client, which was not the case with the KR client. The EC does however borrow a lot of the mobile art (ie. the player and monster models) from the KR client.

    You are entitled to your opinion, but it took me a good three months of steady use to become truly comfortable with the EC, after six years of using the CC. I very much doubt that most of those who love to dump all over the EC have given it even remotely close to that kind of chance.
     
  10. Merion

    Merion Lore Master
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    Great yet another of these theads... :bdh:
     
  11. Coldren

    Coldren Sage
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    This is almost verbatim how I use the clients.

    The UI is so much better for combat in EC.. If they could make the graphics in EC more crisp, and less blurry (As well as fix my trash-can head), I'd probably get much more used to EC. Plus Dermott's Enhanced Copper mod is awesome.

    Well.. That and an organizer agent... That thing is invaluable.
     
  12. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    QFT
     
  13. deadite

    deadite Sage
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    You seem focused on the way the EC *looks* rather than the way it *plays*. This just makes me think that you only spent a few hours in it, rather than really exploring how it can change your gameplay.

    I do wish the Devs would give us the option to use the original KR art. But I would rather them keep cracking on that lengthy bug list for now...

    I only use the EC when I play. I just can't go back to the legacy client. It's not that I dislike it or anything... I just prefer the playability of the EC.
     
  14. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    There's a real simple solution for you, you know. If you don't like it, don't read it. No one's forcing you to participate... ;)
     
  15. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    If you like the EC client go for it. I for one wont stop you. If it keeps you in the game ...ok
    But dont expect everyone to agree with you. I can understand your position on the matter of the EC client being better in your opinion. Many came to UO from playing other games with newer graphics, and that is great but please dont force it down others throats who couldnt care less.

    Those of us who find all "3d" types of UO not to our liking voice it due to the fact 99.9% of those who like EC scream it to the rooftops over normal uo players heads to the point of becoming nags. We dont want nor need better graphics to enjoy the game. It's why many versions of it have failed big time and it caused a big exodus from UO when it was told that "KR" was going to be had whether we wanted it or not. As you can well see we dont play in that mode as that ex DEV head so earnestly claimed. But the dammage was done. We lost alot of old players.

    UO was and still is one of the best games for family play, I know many who play for other reasons other then this games looks.

    End of discussion.
     
  16. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    That's funny, that's not what I see. What I see is certain posters taking every opportunity to bash the EC, when it is pretty clear in most cases that they haven't even given it a proper try. And most who defend the EC only do so in response to that bashing. I have yet to see a thread started by an EC user about how great the EC is and how everyone should use it and the CC should simply be done away with, but I've seen plenty of threads like this one whose sole purpose is to bash the EC. And I've seen plenty of random attacks on the EC in threads where that attack was completely off topic.

    Poster 1: Yes it is clear that tuna is an endangered species...

    Poster 2: Have you seen the horrible tuna models in the EC! What a waste of time and resources that EC is! It sucks! Why don't they give us a classic shard! yada yada yada.... ;)

    I'm not sure if you actually read the op, but the op was primarily about how bad he considers the EC graphics to be. As deadite said, the EC isn't about graphics, it's about functionality. The KR client was about graphics, but as you can see, it wasn't widely accepted, so with the EC the devs focused on functionality, and I think they did a pretty good job. So do many others, and the number of those who agree with me is growing from what I can see.

    And those who agree with me tend to be those who have actually given the EC a proper chance. No one is forcing you to try the EC. You don't have to if you don't want to, but if you haven't given it a proper try, kindly have the courtesy to refrain from passing judgment on a client that you clearly don't know anything about.
     
  17. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    Llewen ok one last time END of Discussion.

    I have tried it and KR and all the rest. I dont care for it. I dont want UO to be WOW like.
    I did read the op and I read all your posts in here too. Yes dear you have been read. Be happy. It's not a put down, just my opinion.
     
  18. Fat Lip

    Fat Lip Guest

    The main reason for me posing was not to degrade the EC, it was an attempt to get the developers to do some more for it, or create something better. And, as stated in the post's title - this was not meant to start a debate. I don't know of any other place to post my thoughts about the game that will actually get read by the devs, so I posted it here.
     
  19. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

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    ^^^ The only reason anybody argues FOR enhanced client.
     
  20. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    HMMMMMM
    Ok if you are getting a better play in EC due to its format then I can contend that your getting an UNFAIR advantage over others in regular client. There fore I would opt for its removal from UO. Your saying EC/KR gives you better everything for the pvp pvm then I could in normal client. Thats a tactical unfairness. Think of what you said... EC your better player .. why? the features? ok that it allows you to go faster strike quicker, thats a distinct advantage over us on normal client and I find that totaly unfair. Carefull what you say It can be used against your EC.
     
  21. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    You can't expect to post a highly subjective opinion, and not have it be debated. You are entitled to your opinion, and I'm glad you posted it, and you have a right to be "heard". But there are other equally valid opinions, and if you post yours, you should expect that they will be posted as well.

    You say that as if that was a bad thing.

    - Movement is "better" in the EC, not faster, but better. Auto evade in every direction, and less affected by lag and latency. A good thing, not a bad thing.
    - I can use the thumb joystick on my G13 to control my movement, which frees up my mouse to be used to interact with my desktop. A good thing, not a bad thing.
    - Macro interruption is handled intelligently in the EC. A good thing, not a bad thing.
    - There are legal mods available that let me customize the look and feel of my UI. A good thing, not a bad thing.
    - I can legally take full advantage of my wide screen, and higher screen resolution. A good thing, not a bad thing.
    - I am not legally limited in the number of complex macros I can create and either put on my desktop, or assign to hot keys. A good thing, not a bad thing.

    And the list goes on. I don't quite get the point you were trying to make...

    And the words "legal" and "legally" are important to me because I won't play the game any other way. I won't cheat, so those options weren't available to me before. As a result the EC has made me a better player.
     
  22. canary

    canary Guest

    Well you did post on a 'discussion' board your ideas...
     
  23. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And let me reiterate, contrary to popular belief the EC does NOT allow you to move any faster than anyone else. You put someone using the EC beside someone using the CC and have them run a race in a straight line, and providing neither of them are lagging, they will move at the same speed.

    But the auto evade in every direction with the EC does mean that if there are obstacles the person using the EC will have an advantage because they won't get stuck, and in real world conditions where lag is always an issue the person using the EC will also have an advantage because the EC is less affected by lag.

    However, it isn't an unfair advantage, anyone can use the EC, it is freely available, and there is no restricted access. If you want the same advantages, all you have to do is use the EC. If you choose not to, then that is your choice, and you have no one to blame but yourself if you find yourself at a disadvantage.
     
  24. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Well if you took out the graphic requirements for the KR Client and the EC then you would not need to upgrade your video card would you? Take the UI from the EC and use the CC graphics with it and you would not need to upgrade anything at all. The major upgrade to KR and to a lesser degree the EC are the graphics when in comes to system requirements. Yes the functionality of the EC is better than the CC but you still have to look at it to play it. For those that want it give them all the KR graphics and at the same time give us all the CC graphics with the ECs UI and see what happens. You do not buy things on functionality alone. You buy things because they look good to you and they meet your requirements. The first time you load up a game to play the first thing you see is the game, you haven’t even played the game yet. If your first impression is what is this garbage or what have they done to my game then you will not enjoy playing it. That is human nature. You want us to play something that is not visually appealing to us just because the UI is better. Will not happen. Put a startup screen in the EC and let us pick what graphics to use CC/SA/KR. Yes it will take time to learn how to use all the functions of the EC but I don’t care how much time you give me I will never like the new graphics or how they look. Sorry if you do not like my or others opinion about the EC but if you read all the complaints you will see the vast majority of them are all about the graphics not the functionality of the EC. How do you expect people to learn how to use it if they can not stand to look at it?
     
  25. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    And I'm here to tell you it isn't even about the graphics, it's about "feel". It doesn't matter what the devs do with graphics there will be many that won't like it because it "feels" different. The only way to get over that is to put some quality time, as in weeks, not hours, in to actually playing the new client, without constantly going back to the old one.

    The new graphics aren't garbage. The "world" graphics are the same. As for the mobile models, in my opinion some are spectacularly better, some are just better, some are worse, and some are horrible. The nice thing about poor models is they can be fixed if there is some kind of consensus on what's bad about them.

    It's a whole lot easier to fix a few shabby models than it is to recode an entire client application.
     
  26. Kojak

    Kojak Lore Master
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    fat lip is 100% right on everything he said - the EC graphics are ugly as s...

    they only reason i'd use the EC client is for the list looting so you can dig through a treasure chest without lifting up everything else

    if they just gave the CC the looting upgrades and the macro abilities of the EC client, it wouldn't have any advantages whatsoever
     
  27. Willard

    Willard Seasoned Veteran
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    I like the EC because you can have more than one open at a time, and I love the zoom, and hot bars, and macros, and gridded containers, and the one click looting, and the detailed character info. When I started to use the EC I hated it, but after giving it several chances and figuring out how to use it, most things seems easier to do now. I do not think I could go back to using the classic client other than to stock my vendors.
     
  28. deadite

    deadite Sage
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    Well said. I was in the same boat... at first I didn't want to like the EC and I switched back to the CC. But after giving it an honest go after rebuilding my system (I *only* installed the EC), I found that after a week I was totally in love with it. I got used to the graphics. Sure they could be better, but... eh. I don't get all hot and bothered about them.
     
  29. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    You are wrong it is about the looks. If they used all the CC graphics you could make the EC look just like the CC nad set up your macros the same as in the CC and there would be no difference. Or better yet you could use the EC with CC graphics and set up more macros and have an easier time. EC with CC graphics could be better than CC with UOA but they will not put the CC grapics in the EC and let us use them so don't blame us for not liking your EC, blame UO for not listening for the last 3 yrs and not putting in a graphics switch for everybody. The UI is not the problem, it's the UGLY FUZZY graphics.
     
  30. canary

    canary Guest

    zoomed out: play doh online

    zoomed in: pixellated online
     
  31. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    You know Llewen I hate to tell you this ... but I play the EC everyday and I HATE most of the mobile graphics... most especially my character... the male paperdoll is HORRIBLE... and I've complained about it since day one.

    Secondly... Yes there are a whole bunch of awesome features in the EC that I'll give it.... but more often than not the EC just doesn't measure up to anything near respectable.

    And lets face it when trying to draw in new players to UO it's very hard when you can't even stand to look at your own character.
     
  32. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    this

    Start a new Poll and count the number of replies that match this one..
     
  33. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Let’s face facts here. Neither client is going to bring in new players as both clients aren't even remotely modern looking. YES, graphics do matter to gamers. To say they don't is hilarious.


    The EC is not WoW, nor really looks anything like WoW. It’s also not 3D in any way, shape or form. It is a tile-based isometric game that simply used an engine that can be used to model a 3D world. 90% of the current EC graphics were taken directly from the CC, only the mobiles and the ground/mountains use the KR graphics.


    The reason the graphics look less than stellar is because of the sprite-based approach taken with the EC. The CC graphics were made for screens locked at 800x600, and were later teased into double that resolution. Modern gamers run their resolution around 1920x1080. CC graphics will look TINY at their native resolution and horribly pixelated if they are blown up - which is the problem in the EC.

    The mobiles resolution used to be much higher in KR. You could see facial features on your avatar. Now, you are lucky to be able to make out that you even have hands. Why is this? Draconi explained it as a result of KR making “video cards smoke.” Had they not been creating KR/EC for system specs considered mid-range in 2003 (and actually achieved that goal) this wouldn’t have been a problem, and current EC mobile resolution would be better.

    The naysayers who rail against the EC all have one thing in common: They obviously haven’t played it recently. Calling it 3D and saying its graphics suck (aside from the male paper doll and some mobiles) show they don’t know what they’re talking about. Saying that the EC looks like WoW is another dead give-away. The only similarity there would be the gridded backpack, which has been a staple in MMOs and many stand alone games for decades – and remember, you can revert to the classic container view. Hotbars are very similar to the freeform icon placement of the CC, just more structured. Macros are lightyears better.

    Is the EC perfect? Hell no. Is it getting better? Painfully slowly. Does UO have any kind of future without it, or something like it? Again, hell no.
     
  34. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    ^ This, just, this. QFT, +1000, etc etc etc.
     
  35. Coldren

    Coldren Sage
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    Is the UI improving? Absolutely. Getting better to use all the time. Wouldn't fight a mongbat with out it. The UI is EC's saving grace, and when I need to fight, that's the client of choice for me. So not EVERYONE who takes up issues with EC has completely abandoned it. I disprove your statement.

    However, what SOME people don't seem to accept is that not everyone thought that KR's graphics were actually GOOD - Actually, the majority DID NOT because EC dropped KR's style like a drug mule at a DEA blockade. And as you yourself state, graphics DO matter - Not necessarily in the way you think they may though.

    Yes, KR supported a higher resolution, but higher resolutions doesn't make something go from fugly to beauty queen. I'm all in favor of higher resolution, but what it didn't have was UO's color pallet, theme, SCALE, or crispness. Yes, those bitmaps in 2D are far more crisp and clean than the assets they ran through a Photoshop macro to resize them and apply a Gaussian Blurr for EC.


    THIS is how you increase the size and resolution of UO assets and make them LOOK good:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    That's high resolution. That's the same STYLE as UO. That's something different than anything else on the market that you can actually SELL to anyone, INCLUDING the current UO user base. But it's haaaaaaarrrddd and it takes time to take a pixel art, scale it, clean it up, and covert to a png or something scalable.

    Go ahead and tell me they didn't phone it in on the assets for EC. When someone can do this in their free time, and the art department that is a division of a a multi-billion dollar company made EC's art. They actually succeeded in making the very same assets from 2D LOOK WORSE. This is what happens when you try to make everyone happy by attempting to use some of KR's assets and mixing them with modified classic assets - You please no one.

    If you want to give us new graphics, fine. But dammit, it needs to be BETTER, not just in resolution and size, but style.

    Now beauty and style are subjective things, but people can spot fugly a mile away...

    [​IMG]
     
  36. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

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    First, if you post here, you WILL start a debate. It is inevitable. :)

    Second, I agree with most of the flaws you posted about the Enhanced Client. Still I prefer it over the Classic Client, because the CC has many more issues that diminish my positive gaming experience.

    And last, the graphics debate always is a matter of taste. I think the graphics could be MUCH better than what the EC currently offers, but from a modern day perspective the CC graphics are simply a joke from the past millenium.
     
  37. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    Coldren,

    Please reread what I said. I never once said the KR graphics were wonderful. In fact, I think quite the opposite for 100% of the item graphics (I did like some of the plants and some of the building art however). Those were not only phoned in, they were drunk dialed in. How a certain KR Graphics Lead thought those were acceptable boggles the mind and strains his credibility as an artist.

    KR's art were essentially pictures of 3D rendered objects, i.e. pixel graphics. They were not textures over a polygon a la 3D. The same goes for the EC. It’s still all pixel graphics for the environment and sprites for the mobs.

    Resolution only became an glaring issue when they slapped the CC's art into the EC and thought it was ‘good.’ Nobody is defending it, but it was the attempt to appease the people obsessed with the CC. Was it the right answer? NO.

    All the art for the EC should be redone. Nobody has said it shouldn't be. This is where I think you've gotten your wires crossed. Those of us who like the EC like it NOT for the CC's graphics, but for the fact that it’s easier to use and you can do more with the client without using 3rd part aps.

    Personally, I would like to see every stitch of art redone so it is all in the correct perspective and looks like it all belongs together - So the style is all the same. Saphireena's art would be a big step up from what we have now in terms of clarity and resolution. Cal even said they tried to get her once, but schedules didn't align properly.
     
  38. Coldren

    Coldren Sage
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    Oh I understand what you said - It wasn't meant to be a direct response just to you. However, a lot of people tend to think the reason people don't adopt the new client is because of some misplaced devotion to CC. It's not misplaced - it's appropriate. For lots of people, the CC is just stable, does what they need it to do, and looks like UO. People who so vehemently support EC and lambaste those who don't forget the simple fact that until a new client offers the stability and style they already have with CC, in combination with BETTER controls, they will never switch out completely.

    Now EC is doing absolutely WONDERFUL in the control/UI department. And Enhanced Copper just makes it that much better. It's come a long way, and I hope they keep working at it.

    While I agree, EC's graphics was a bad attempt at appease the the majority of the existing player base, especially with horrible port they made by hybridizing it with KR. But it wasn't the WRONG decision - It was the RIGHT decision, poorly executed. You may not like KR yourself, but there are a few people who are quite vocal in their belief that the STYLE of UO needed to change in a way that KR was going. You just can't do that. If it's redone, it has to be done in the same style, palette, and theme as UO currently is. You stray from that, and you will lose your existing player base. And personally, with a decade-old game, I wouldn't hedge my bets AGAINST people who stuck it out with you for 13 years.

    Awesome quote, incidentally. Drunk dialed in.. Fantastic. :thumbup1: