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Thought on Virtue vs Vice

Discussion in 'UO Siege Perilous' started by FrejaSP, May 7, 2015.

  1. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    After doing VvV a few weeks now, I had changed my opinion on having VvV battles in town. I had not really PvP'ed for years. Before I always could find a fight in the forest of East Brit and Cove, that's not possible now.
    I really enjoy the action, even when my count of deaths are way higher than my count of kills.

    I started doing this VvV battles because I falled in love with this VvV banners. I got my first from making suits for a new guild on Siege and trade with banners.

    Now young crafters can't affor that, as special gems are very expensive on Siege and they need lots of gold to buy resources.
    And young VvV'ers can't afford losing their suits and replacing them as it fast get expensive.

    Very few are so lucky as me, most will get looted alot.

    I believe we can improve VvV alot on Siege and make it less a pain to replace lost suits.

    We do not have the VvV artifacts on Siege, I like that but VvV players should not be forced to use alot of time to hunt monster artifacts or for gold and resources to buy new gear from crafters.

    And make it less painful and expensive for the crafters to craft good gear.

    The new global loot did help alot and the 8% bonus from armslore do too, but still not enough to bring the crafter and the PvP'ers back to Siege.

    I believe a few thing could help bring the fun back to Siege.

    1. Basic resist on an item is 15%, I guess that count both for crafted and monster loot. Increase that to 25%, that will make crafters get rid of the painful job to get a suit 5x70 resist and would make non artifact magic stuff from loot more useful too.

    2. Lower vendor prices on Siege to the same as on normal shard, no more 3-5x prices on Siege.

    3. Increase the stock of resources on vendors in Battle town, so when a battle start, increase the stock of gems, bottles, etc to 200 vs the 20 it is now, after the battle is over, it will start going down again if noone buy the stock.
    That will give the VvV players a chance to buy, when they are doing battles and they can fight over the vendors too.
    After the battle are over and town are safe again, the crafters have a chance to use less time farm stock up on this vendors as they still have more in stock than else.

    4. Let the artifacts used for VvV on other shards be less rare monster and treasure drop on Siege. Then there may be more of them on vendors.

    5. Lower vendor fee to 2% on Siege, so we will see more well stocked vendors

    6. Increase drop of gems for mining and from monsters, maybe 3x from monsters and 5x from mining.

    This changes would support the way of Siege and still make PvP'er, PvM'er and crafter depend of each others.

    The changes needed for Siege would not be that hard to code, and would help the balance on Siege vs Item Insurance on normal shards.
     
    #1 FrejaSP, May 7, 2015
    Last edited: May 8, 2015
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  2. Bo Bo

    Bo Bo Lore Keeper
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    vvv sucks, maybe you get fights cause most think they can beat you. Bo gets two people to fight, the rest run and hide.
    and really you are asking for 4 different changes that without the one before it will barely help, why not just say what is needed in one word?
    INSURANCE! There the Bo helped you out.
     
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  3. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Freja do not like Bo's ideas
     
  4. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    So you've gone from "Please uo gods, dont hurt the new players with VvV, to, "wow I joined it and am having fun now" ?
     
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  5. Lore Denin (GL)

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    I 100% agree with Freja, make armor and weapons cheaper and easier to make and replace, allow people to sell on vendors without high fees. Keep the only working economy in UO and keep siege what it was suppose to be.

    I run in a easily replaceable imbued suit with no max mods, but it still costs 600-700k to replace.. If the time and cost is reduced to 100k, [1-3 days hunting vs 7-18 days of hunting] people would not be so worried about losing a suit and their weapons.

    Simply increase drop rates, give players chances to get resources through VvV as Freja suggested and lower vendor costs. Very simple, fixes the problem and keeps with the siege principles.

    -Lore
     
  6. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Hmm, I still feel non VvV should have a way of knowing the battle towns. I never was against VvV, there are alot I like with it, special, that each guild member can choose to join or not.

    I know I did say, battles should not be in town and yes, I had to changes my opinion here.
     
  7. Val'lyn De'ana

    Val'lyn De'ana Seasoned Veteran

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    We do. Try to gate into the active town and you can't. If you are already in a town that gets activated or try to walk into one of the towns and get a warning gump.

    The only time I've been flagged is when I am in a town and go afk when the gump comes up. Then I just bank everything and let people know in GC that I'll be in Luna for an easy kill.

    Not sure how much more warning we need.

    -Val'lyn
     
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  8. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Yes you right, I don't have trouble myself, Tina Tink was selling something to a VvV player, he wanted to trade in Jhelom, I used crystal portal to go there, got the gump, traded my item, and hit the gump to go to the moongate.
     
  9. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    Bo is right that vice vs virtue sux, it lacks the defense aspect and its capture the flag or control a point elements are weak. Look up Team Fortress series, especially ol' good Quake Wars Team Fortress and Team Fortress Classic. The idea of having tinkers build sentry guns, teleporters and detonable dispensers is nice) bases, flags to steal and carry away, control points to deliver the flags onto to cap etc. Fun fun fun.

    Freja got ICQ?

    As for being unable to gate, that sucks too. Yesterday I needed to go to Heartwood and it won't let me gate. I had to fel yew mint or fel yew moongate and then walk all the way to the portal(
     
    #9 Marisa Kirisame, May 7, 2015
    Last edited: May 7, 2015
  10. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    yes I do have ICQ, 7869331
     
  11. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Let crafters in VvV create these things. I am open to ideas on ways to fairly make items that are not unbalanced versus the rest of the shard that can not wear vending machine gear.
     
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  12. Lore Denin (GL)

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    What if recipes were found when VvV towns were active and people were doing the trade quests, or stealing from chests, etc. Then they could only be crafted during by a craftsperson in an active VvV town, and the process took 5 minutes to complete.

    This would allow crafters to create the artifacts but might require them to get support while doing so. Could add another dimension to VvV and crafting that's long been missing from UO.

    -Lore
     
  13. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    That could work, but tha artifacts should be useable of non VvV too
     
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  14. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Here is an opportunity to bring a lot of folk back to group fighting. Many folks are uncomfortable or unable to be a great PvPer. Behind every hero is a support group.
     
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  15. Victim of Siege

    Victim of Siege Crazed Zealot
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    and a lot of Rum
     
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  16. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Much RUM, and it seems I drink to much, as I just erased a posted about a lot of run...

    -Lore
     
    #16 Lore Denin (GL), May 7, 2015
    Last edited: May 7, 2015
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  17. Lore Denin (GL)

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    I agree non VvV people should be able to use but not get the VvV bonus of the item.. So a VvV orny would has MR3 in addition to its other properties.

    If you are in VvV the mr3 applies and if not it works as a normal orny [2/3 lmc lrc, energy]

    -Lore
     
  18. Bo Bo

    Bo Bo Lore Keeper
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    Are you saying that insurance is the reason other shards economy is in the ****ter? That simply is not the case, its the transfering of players on and off of shards, that led to a ton of dupes. These duped items created the inflation these shards suffer currently.
     
  19. Bo Bo

    Bo Bo Lore Keeper
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    or a bunch of soulstones & most people are ****ty pvpers cause they lack the conviction to make a pvp template on siege.
     
  20. Zalfein

    Zalfein Journeyman
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    I still think we should allow insurance on items with a property weight of 400 or less. This way people who don't have time to farm would still be able to have fun with a lesser suit.

    Zalfein
     
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  21. Barania

    Barania Slightly Crazed
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    I've never understood nor taken the time to understand VvV. About all I know is my 3 chars are orange most of the time...sometimes my smith is blue.

    You get a message about it when you enter a town and an understanding if you are unable to gate. About 95% of my time is out of town where you can always be attacked. I see no reason why this system would entail changes including insurance nor anything else.

    Maybe I'm missing something.

    Jack Nickelson
     
  22. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    You see, that's why Factions Artifacts once killed my guild.

    On Siege we will have red VvV running in VvV artifacts, fighting a blue PvM'er, who like some PvP too.

    Who do you think will win, the red already have advantage of knowing how to PvP and build his suit for it, now you want to give him even more advandage in PvP?

    Crafted items, that are easy to put together to a suit, would be nice for all, but giving one group advantage will make the other group stop trying to PvP or run back to Prodo shard.

    It may be the goal to get alot to join VvV but there will still be alot, who are not willing to be orange all the time.
     
  23. Lore Denin (GL)

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    I read your opinion, thought about it and have changed my mind. I think your solution is better. My thoughts were the people taking part in VvV should get the full benefits of the artifacts whereas those who simply buy from a vendor should not... but in the overall scheme of things, it does create an inbalance between the groups who are pvp oriented and those who are not - thus making the pvmers even less able to defend themselves.

    Thanks, Lore
     
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  24. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Sorry I came out a little hard, it was flashes of memories from the past in my head :)
     
  25. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    Orange flag disappears if you're killed by something flagged orange - that includes your pet, who gets flagged orange when you do. The skill loss upon death can be abused as some equivalent of the known satyr trick - the timer won't tick if you're dead or are logged out.

    If you Freja go icq we can share some talk.
     
  26. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    I added a punkt more:

    6. Increase drop of gems for mining and from monsters, maybe 3x from monsters and 5x from mining. That will help get the prices down too. And help newbies make money too
     
  27. Val'lyn De'ana

    Val'lyn De'ana Seasoned Veteran

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    What if VvV artifact bonuses only activated in city limits when that specific city was active? Sure, you'd have to switch in and out of items when a city went active, but it would not give an advantage to anyone to wear them outside of VvV fights.

    *shrugs*

    Just a thought.

    -Val'lyn
     
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  28. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Are you sure about this? I'm pretty sure that under the old factions system, you could not get any skill gains at all (shard didn't matter) during the 20 minute faction skill loss period. I distinctly remember thinking that maybe I could at least carry out some remove trap training with lower level tinkered boxes years ago the first time I was training the skill and had gotten clobbered while on my faction thief character. It didn't work. No gains whatsoever.
     
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  29. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    I have a bunch of soulstones, plenty of conviction, what i lack is talent...
     
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  30. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I disagree with that. Insurance ruined item economy by causin power creep and tram caused currency inflation and aided in ruining item economy with unchecked (no threat of pks) farming. So while insurace would't effect currecny inflation (which isnt even really an issue) it would cause power creep and thus make pvp entry level much higher, among other issues.

    In my opinion ease of replacmet will always be better than no loss, as it keeps power levels in check and gives peeps willing to risk losing good stuff a tangible advantage.
     
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  31. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    Insurance was one of the rfactors that ruined economy because the gold had to become cheaper - it has become a resource for the insurance - which must be cheap.
     
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  32. Bo Bo

    Bo Bo Lore Keeper
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    Love the way you put it, ahhah "item economy"
    tram was out for years before the economies of most shards took a dive, they dove when dupes began again.
    as for your pvp entry level being much higher, wtf you think is going on right now on siege? It has created a larger gap between the those that have the gold to spend/lose and those that dont. Sure some have the gear to compete for one or two rounds but most dont have the gear to compete for the long haul. Lose of gear has been the biggest lose of people on this shard. Take it from someone who has taken more gear than just about anyone.
     
  33. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    There was always duping, and the reason it wasn't crazy (it absolutely was worse) right away is that it takes a few years for **** to steamroll gold wise, and item wise it took people a while to figure out what was good post AOS once that came out. We don't know how much duping happened, but we DO know 10's of thousands of people were farming with 24/7 access for a decade+, that will create billions in currency, no question.

    As for the current gap it's true it DOES exist, but it's not really that wide. Most people pvp in 90% imbued suits, which are not exactly cheap, but are at least easy to get. With insurance and the low number of pvm farmers we have here there would just be a few rich people running around with uber suits and a very clear tactical, rather than strategic advantage, which I think is far more harmful. It's also very likely that the people with the biggest advantage will be the big group pvmers, like Gil.

    Don't get me wrong, as I have said many times before, pvp IS broken here gear wise, but shard wide insurance is too large a hammer for this specific nail.

    I think improving drops (for both crafting resources and rare equips) shard wide should have happened ages ago, as well as giving us the fel luck bonus. As for VvV adding in more crafter interaction like VvV only recipes (including sets) that can only be crafted inside VvV towns, getting VvV points for crafting said items, and turning them in to an npc where they could be purchased with VvV points... **** like that, get the community working together within the system to solve the issue. Lot of work in terms of design and implementation, but that would be a positive solution. Of course since its only a siege issue, it would never happen.

    Another (probably) easier solution would be to add in pub16 champ spawn style equipped items blessings for anyone flagged in an active VvV town for the duration, that way people could fight more actively in VvV but couldn't take the advantage out into dungeons and steamroll pvmers, keeping it optional.

    Shardwide insurance would really kill the spirit of the siege, and I'm really not so sure that it would improve the experience anywhere near enough to make it worth it.
     
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  34. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    I absolutely hate to say it. The words taste like utter double whopper with cheese before I spit them out, but The Bo is right. Some form of "Insurance" is the only way to go at this point.

    All I can say is that IF that ever happens on Siege, the only way I will support it is if there is no cost involved in it. I cannot abide anyone making gold and/or draining someone's bank account rez-killing them and newbs losing all their gold to rez-killing mobs doesn't sit well with me, either. Just perma-bless the items with the Siege Bless function and let the items break at a normal pace over time. That way crafters can still be useful and resources will still be necessary.

    The only change necessary for this is to make the Siege Bless function bless up to 15 [is that the current number of wearable slots?] items at a time.

    Hat/Glasses
    Gorget/Necklace
    Sleeves
    Gloves
    Tunic
    Legs
    Ring
    Bracelet
    Earrings
    Hand 1
    Hand 2 [If not carrying 2 handed wepon]
    Back/Cape
    Robe
    Apron/Belt
    Shoes

    Have I forgotten anything? I'm sure I have seeing as it's after 3 AM!
     
  35. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Sorry Kat, I hope that will never ever happen, it would hurt Siege badly
     
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  36. WhiteWitch

    WhiteWitch Journeyman

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    hmm to me what makes insurance more bearable is that the winner of the fight gets the others insurance money, I didn't even realise it worked that way till recently when I did some PvP on prodo, and its made me dislike the idea less, this way there is at least some "loot", making it possible to actually make money as a PK character.

    I think its realistic to assume that no very convoluted system which amounts to "insurance lite" is likely to be implemented, I would imagine Siege is low in the priority system for the already small Broadsword team, I doubt they have any inclination to change anything fundamental with Siege at all, but if could be persuaded, I imagine the insurance system from prodo is the only one that isn't labour intensive to put in.

    The thing I like on Siege is the global Fel ruleset, insurance or not doesn't bother me in itself as I don't loot players, but I do think it would make the gear gap wider which probably isn't a good thing, also it would destroy the game for thieves, Siege and Mugen are really the only shards left for them.
     
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  37. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
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    How would it destroy the game for thieves? There are very very few items they can steal when they are equipped. Most steal from packs and those items would not be blessed. I'm not talking full prodo insurance where you can insure everything under the sun and risk NOTHING. It would be nice if you actually read a post and considered the idea before trashing it.

    I don't know any PK that makes money PKing now with full looting rights, unless he gets REALLY lucky and kills a broker with 2 sets of 60k of each reg in commodity deeds in his beetle.

    Can't see how the gear gap would be wider. For whom? New players with little gold are always going to have crappier gear no matter what. Players with more resources will always have better gear. It's been that way forever in the world of Britannia. We all eventually get a leg up and move up the ranks.

    Furthermore, there isn't anything labor intensive to my version of "insurance". Again, it would be nice if you actually read the post, but I will agree that anything terribly convoluted that might take more than a few minutes to implement isn't going to happen. Thats the problem with Freja's ideas. I do appreciate the fact that she's trying to find a solution, though.

    *Time to log in again so I can actually POST this. :wall:
     
  38. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    With the rights bestowed onto me, I ask the ones who have the rights not bestowed onto me, to close this thread for it has gone off the ways of pure brainstorming.
     
  39. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Why ALL slots? Expanded I understand... but not expanded to include all possible item slots. I really think in normal circumstances, like out in the dungeon, people need to lose at least SOME of their items. This is Siege after all... I guess.
     
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  40. Victim of Siege

    Victim of Siege Crazed Zealot
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    if you look at the bottom right of that warning, there is a buton that takes you to the nearest moongate. that keeps you from getting flagged
    upload_2015-5-9_7-24-29.png
     
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  41. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Who cares? Does ANY thread EVER stay 100%... heck 75% on topic? Hardly call for closing a thread.
     
  42. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    Still, I demand the thread closed.
     
  43. WhiteWitch

    WhiteWitch Journeyman

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    What I wrote was not a reply to your post, it was about insurance
     
  44. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Why would you demand that, because you disagree? The thread was meant to debat and that's what it is used for. All have right to an opinion.
    Don't demand my threads closed
     
  45. Bo Bo

    Bo Bo Lore Keeper
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    Bo agrees with Uvtha shard wide full insurance would prolly damage siege. Someone had said it awhile ago, and the Bo really liked the idea. Have insurance but for only about 5 items. This way people still lose things, and get to wear those items that they were too afraid of losing before.
    Last night Bo pvp'd for a little bit. It was a joke, one guy was dismounted and bo could not even keep up with he was moving so fast on foot. These people that blatantly cheat wear gear most wont. That is where the biggest issue with pvp is here.
     
    Lore Denin (GL) likes this.
  46. Marisa Kirisame

    Marisa Kirisame Seasoned Veteran

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    The thread has depleted in terms of productivity, don't you think? Basic positions have already formed, the debates are taking place that don't lead to anything.
     
  47. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Patron The DarkOutlaws, TDO

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    You mean, it do not lead the way you want?

    I do dislike any kind of Blessing or item Insurance but their opiniens as as valid as my opinions. Even when they not directe have to do with VvV, they are still a part of it, as lose/replace of items have to do with people stopping to PvP.

    I also know, you want to copy some ideas from an other game to VvV. We had tryed copy ideas from other games to UO in the past and most times it hurt UO badly.

    VvV is not done, we will see update to it. I like they test some parts before they add more and I believe it will end up having more effect at the town, depending of if the town are Vice or Virtue. I don't know what is comming, I can only guess
     
    #47 FrejaSP, May 9, 2015
    Last edited: May 9, 2015
  48. Lore Denin (GL)

    Stratics Veteran

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    My Knights battle all evil... that being said it is not uncommon for me to stop an engagement when the most vile of evils arrives on the field (cheaters) and its also no uncommon for enemies to assist. When such evil is removed, our battle continues.... I never loot, but it is not uncommon for my enemies who aided in the defeat of the most vile enemy to be better equipped once we resume.

    My Knights keep to the old code when determining the order of targeting evil:

    1)Cheaters 2) Noto Blues (not really an issue since we mostly take part in VvV and even Blues will flag orange) 3) Red PK's 4) RP Evil Enemies.

    -Lore
     
  49. Kat

    Kat Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran TnT/TnA

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    All slots... Because I was replying mostly in support of Bo's post suggesting insurance as a solution. I do agree with him, however, I do not want us to have the same version of insurance that prodo shards have. All slots DO need to be blessed/insured because the of difficulty of replacing our suits here on Siege, in this item based game, is largely what is WRONG with Siege. Losing even one piece of your suit in today's game means the fun is over for an extended amount of time while you either make or try to purchase a replacement. And good luck finding what you want to buy on THIS shard! Even longer if it is something non-craftable. How many cursed/non-cursed artifacts are you seeing on vendors these says? Not many, if any at all. I'm not totally crazy about the idea myself, but I do understand that today's game wasn't meant to be played without some form of insurance because many items and ingredients are hard to get and can be time consuming to find. This is why so many of our players went back to prodo. Re-equipping on Siege is not conducive to getting back into the action and having fun. When its fun, people leave... and that's exactly what has happened.

    If you will read the post, you will see that I suggest that items with durability should eventually break at their normal rate, which would keep crafter's and resources useful to us all.

    I know EXACTLY where we are playing, Uvtha. I select the same shard you do when I log in. This is indeed, Siege, but this Siege Perilous isn't the same Siege Perilous we started playing so many years ago. I'd give anything to have that Siege back, but that isn't going to happen. We have to move forward and deal with the problems in today's Siege in hopes of rebuilding the community.
     
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  50. bla bla 12

    bla bla 12 Visitor

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    i hope it was a joke