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Thoughts on Cheating

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Jirel of Joiry, Mar 16, 2008.

  1. Jirel of Joiry

    Jirel of Joiry Certifiable
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    Okay after reading Plucky's thread I decided to start my own thread rather than shanghai Plucky's. There has been ALOT of discussion about cheating in UHall as of late.

    I've noticed two distinct attitudes A: As long as I benefit/gain from it, who cares I'm not hurting anyone. B: Cheating is wrong and should be punished.

    I've also noticed something else the difference in age of the persons with these two distinct attitudes. People with the type A attitude are generally between 16 to 25 years old. People with type B attitude are 30 years old and older. This is a generallity I don't claim to the accuracy of my data.

    I have noticed something else, the change in society's attitude about cheating. 48 Hrs, Hard Evidence did a piece on a ENTIRE High school that was cheating, and a teacher that said enough. I was shock that in ad for this piece the parents are calling for this teacher to be fired. I didn't get to see the piece, but if someone did plz post. Also in the ad is a teenage boy, who's face was hidden stating "As long as I can get a advantage, why not? I'm not hurting anyone."

    I'm wondering if we're fighting a losing battle because people are viewing cheating differently....IE: Cheating in video game/Okay. Cheating in HS/Okay. Cheating in College/okay. Cheating does go on in college. Sadly you can go to any number of websites and buy ...YES I said buy your term paper any subject.
    My sister found out about buying term papers from another student while she was in college. She chose to write her papers herself.

    I view cheating as wrong. That is my view, period. What is your view? Do you think in game cheating is a symptom of a changing society attitude? Plz, post and express your thoughts. If you must flame, the PLEASE refrain from posting. Thank you
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Putting animals inside your house and training with them is not cheating. It is just something OSI declared illegal even though it is a valid use of mechanics they created. Something can be illegal and not cheating at the same time.
     
  3. Razeial

    Razeial Guest

    I agree, cheating is wrong. But in the case of Plucky's thread, if you can tear through the tangled vines of posts, no one was in fact, cheating. It would be different if they were duping gold or something. But then again, this is JUST a game. And so for as long as there will be video games, there will be cheaters. IF you dont want to cheat, then dont. I dont agree that cheating for EVERY little thing should be punished, but when it comes to dupers and such, yes, it should be addressed. But finding an easier way to train a particular skill? Come on seriously.....don't you guys have better things to do in this game then harass peope about the way they train?
     
  4. When I came across Plucky's post I originally thought it was some sort of joke. Unattended macroing has been going on since this game came out and back then it was a lot of more "culturally acceptable" in the world of UO. Hell, it used to be common practice to take wooden boxes to despise to block off the ogre lords from hitting you while you 'hunted' them. Same with Balrons under Terra Keep. Yet, they changed all that and now it appears to have become an extreme crime to use any of these tactics while training....

    For those that have trained up Disco know how ridiculous it is. I took a char to legendary about a year ago and used the same method, albeit with Cu Sidhe's. Even with Discoing them for 8 hours a day while I was going to college (and not cheating mind you) it still took a couple weeks. I could only imagine how insane it would be to take the skill to legendary with normal game play. I think the arguement that it is not hurting anyone is valid in this case. Who suffers in these scenarios? Not one person. It isn't comparable to duping or hacking or any other such action that effects others. This is simply a method to have fun playing a game, two words that we seem to be forgetting.

    Rather than looking at these people as "Cheaters" and calling them out and harassing them online, just look at them as being civilly disobedient and making a stand against an unfair system of skill gain.
     
  5. Jirel of Joiry

    Jirel of Joiry Certifiable
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    Okay MHO, is this: If OSI/EA/Mythic says its against the rules, then its cheating. I'm not saying the rules are right, nor am I saying they're wrong.

    Ignorance of the rules is no excuse. Its like running a stop sign behind a freakin' tree and getting a ticket for it. You didn't see it, you still ran it, law says running a stop sign is illegal, cop give you a ticket. Cop's reason: Ignorance is no excuse. (ya, ya sucks I know)

    I really don't want in the middle of Plucky vs. Disco dude debate. I could post up here like 5 or so houses where peeps do this on Legends. I got better things to do than waste my time paging NONE EXSISTANT GMS on these guys! GMs are like the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy...Neat-o idea but they don't really exsist in really real life! I feel like its cheating, but ain't nothin I can do about it.

    Seriously I'm interested in people's general thoughts on cheating.
     
  6. Jirel of Joiry

    Jirel of Joiry Certifiable
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    <blockquote><hr>

    When I came across Plucky's post I originally thought it was some sort of joke. Unattended macroing has been going on since this game came out and back then it was a lot of more "culturally acceptable" in the world of UO. Hell, it used to be common practice to take wooden boxes to despise to block off the ogre lords from hitting you while you 'hunted' them. Same with Balrons under Terra Keep. Yet, they changed all that and now it appears to have become an extreme crime to use any of these tactics while training....

    For those that have trained up Disco know how ridiculous it is. I took a char to legendary about a year ago and used the same method, albeit with Cu Sidhe's. Even with Discoing them for 8 hours a day while I was going to college (and not cheating mind you) it still took a couple weeks. I could only imagine how insane it would be to take the skill to legendary with normal game play. I think the arguement that it is not hurting anyone is valid in this case. Who suffers in these scenarios? Not one person. It isn't comparable to duping or hacking or any other such action that effects others. This is simply a method to have fun playing a game, two words that we seem to be forgetting.

    Rather than looking at these people as "Cheaters" and calling them out and harassing them online, just look at them as being civilly disobedient and making a stand against an unfair system of skill gain.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Wow, I like your thoughts. You have neat view on this, I hadn't though of looking at it that way!
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Okay MHO, is this: If OSI/EA/Mythic says its against the rules, then its cheating.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Harassment is also against the rules but I don't think anyone would call that cheating.
     
  8. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    The probable direction of this thread:<ul>[*]Someone is going to explain how UO mostly consists of overly tedious and unnecessarily time-consuming repeated actions that reward scripters over average players. They will then go on to explain how UO's solution to this problem has for so long been to make things even more tedious and time-consuming, thus rewarding scripters even more.[*]Someone will reply that not only have they never scripted in their lives, the last time they trained a skill, they did it with the monitor off for added difficulty, uphill, both ways, in the snow, thus insinuating that the person from the first reply is a dirty cheater and should probably be killed, irl.[*]Personal attack against poster #2.[*]Personal attack against poster #1.[*]Troll post.[*]Personal attack on the troll.[*]Personal attack on the boards at-large.[*]Personal attack against the OP.[*]Troll post.[*]Troll post.[*]Someone will make a beautful, witty, insightful post that elucidates everyone's position on the matter wonderfully, bringing all together in a common cause. Unfortunately, due to all of the personal attacks and trolling, the thread will be locked before they can hit the post button.[/list]
     
  9. Jirel of Joiry

    Jirel of Joiry Certifiable
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    <blockquote><hr>

    Okay MHO, is this: If OSI/EA/Mythic says its against the rules, then its cheating.

    <blockquote><hr>

    Harassment is also against the rules but I don't think anyone would call that cheating.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Once again, good point! You're absolutely right! I made a pretty broad generalization, didn't I?
     
  10. Jirel of Joiry

    Jirel of Joiry Certifiable
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    <blockquote><hr>

    The probable direction of this thread:
    <ul> [*]Someone is going to explain how UO mostly consists of overly tedious and unnecessarily time-consuming repeated actions that reward scripters over average players. They will then go on to explain how UO's solution to this problem has for so long been to make things even more tedious and time-consuming, thus rewarding scripters even more.
    [*]Someone will reply that not only have they never scripted in their lives, the last time they trained a skill, they did it with the monitor off for added difficulty, uphill, both ways, in the snow, thus insinuating that the person from the first reply is a dirty cheater and should probably be killed, irl.
    [*] Personal attack against poster #2.
    [*]Personal attack against poster #1.
    [*]Troll post.
    [*]Personal attack on the troll.
    [*]Personal attack on the boards at-large.
    [*]Personal attack against the OP.
    [*]Troll post.
    [*]Troll post.
    [*]Someone will make a beautful, witty, insightful post that elucidates everyone's position on the matter wonderfully, bringing all together in a common cause. Unfortunately, due to all of the personal attacks and trolling, the thread will be locked before they can hit the post button.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    ROTFLMBO ....You are probably Right!!
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Aye, cheating is wrong and would be hard to prove in UO.
    Its not like dealing from the bottom of the deck playing poker.

    However doing something illegal and cheating are 2 different things.

    The stuff with all the animals locked in the house is illegal, period.
    It doesn't matter if it was messing with someones gameplay or not, just
    the fact they were locked up is illegal for whatever reason..

    Just what exactly is cheating in UO ????
     
  12. personally i think "cheating" is wrong however my veiw point is that of this is a game. a video game. someone will always find a way to exploit or minipulate the system. someone will always get offended by that and someone will always try to stop it. best thing about it, its a never ending cycle
     
  13. Jirel of Joiry

    Jirel of Joiry Certifiable
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    <blockquote><hr>

    Aye, cheating is wrong and would be hard to prove in UO.
    Its not like dealing from the bottom of the deck playing poker.

    However doing something illegal and cheating are 2 different things.

    The stuff with all the animals locked in the house is illegal, period.
    It doesn't matter if it was messing with someones gameplay or not, just
    the fact they were locked up is illegal for whatever reason..

    Just what exactly is cheating in UO ????

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Again excellent points!! Wow, I'm impressed with everyone so far, lots of good points and lots of thought going into those points.
     
  14. <blockquote><hr>

    The probable direction of this thread:<ul>[*]Someone is going to explain how UO mostly consists of overly tedious and unnecessarily time-consuming repeated actions that reward scripters over average players. They will then go on to explain how UO's solution to this problem has for so long been to make things even more tedious and time-consuming, thus rewarding scripters even more.[*]Someone will reply that not only have they never scripted in their lives, the last time they trained a skill, they did it with the monitor off for added difficulty, uphill, both ways, in the snow, thus insinuating that the person from the first reply is a dirty cheater and should probably be killed, irl.[*]Personal attack against poster #2.[*]Personal attack against poster #1.[*]Troll post.[*]Personal attack on the troll.[*]Personal attack on the boards at-large.[*]Personal attack against the OP.[*]Troll post.[*]Troll post.[*]Someone will make a beautful, witty, insightful post that elucidates everyone's position on the matter wonderfully, bringing all together in a common cause. Unfortunately, due to all of the personal attacks and trolling, the thread will be locked before they can hit the post button.[/list]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I claim dibs on the first troll post AND the first personal attack on the first troll poster.

    Troll post: u aLl 5uK!!! n0Ob5 tRamM3l ru1n3D u0!!!

    Personal attack on the first troll poster (who is of course also me): Go play Siege, moron.

    -Galen's player
     
  15. Jirel of Joiry

    Jirel of Joiry Certifiable
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    LMAO!!! Thank you Galen, for some good humor. That's sorta like me and My sister insulting each other and throwing fireballs at each other in game one time. Went like this:
    Sis: Move yer laggy rear, u NoOb!!
    Me: Bite me!
    Sis: no, thanks I'm not hungry
    Me: wiseguy!
    Sis: Ur still a NoOb!
    Me: Ur the NoOb, you're younger...LMAO!!
    Sis: Take that(Hits me with Fireball)
    Me: Stop it NoOb! (Hits her with fireball)
    Some random helpful person: I'm gonna page on you for harassing her.
    ME:Hey! Don't u be paging on my sister!
    SRHP: Ur Sister, but that's a guy avatar
    Me: dude, don't go there, cause you don't wanna know LMAO!!
     
  16. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    Companies that build online games make the rules on how their game is to be played. They decide what is right and wrong. Subscribers who play these games do so when they agree with and enjoy playing by...the rules that the game makers enforce. I would like to point out a fundamental clash in two distinct views of right and wrong between Game making companies and their and subscribers.

    Corporations view right and wrong strictly on a legal/illegal basis. Human beings (most) view right and wrong on a moral/immoral basis. These two views of right and wrong have to reach a happy medium. Companies constantly have to devote resources to public favor or see their bottom line plummet.

    I once worked with a fella who went to Mcburgerjointthatshallnotbenamed for lunch one day. He ordered a no ketchup burger. Upon seeing ketchup on his burger, he complained at the counter to learn the cook had cut himself and that ketchup was in fact blood. He took the burger straight to his lawyer. He settled for an undisclosed amount on the one hard and fast rule that he never speak of the incident to anyone. A short time later he retired from his very good job so that he could take some time reflect on what he wanted to do with his life.

    He was paid to keep his mouth shut....and that's just what he did. I am the only other soul he talked to about it when it first happened... Now I know it's illegal to sell burgers soaked in humand blood. But this guy's payoff was given to head off the mountain of negative publicity that would have fallen on Mcburgerjointthatshallnotbenamed

    In UO's case I bet you there isn't a single dev who that ever worked on the game that wouldn't have minded one bit if scripting and macroing were generally accepted and encouraged by the masses. If said scripting and macroing would provide for a healthy and growing bottom line for the company. Ever notice that KR seems to embrace a more script like macro system? I get the feeling it's taboo in 2d but A-OK in KR's. Thats hoe the beast is moving behind the scene...better(cheaper) to join'em.

    In testament to the above...Community collections, ridiculously insane buckler turn ins, heartwood quests, rng resources.... these things absolutely beg to be scripted. From there on out it's in our hands...it's all right and wrong in a moral sense. And it's immoral (and a little sadistic) to expect punishment for those that do cheat. Why punish the child when it was you who sat him down in front of the cookie jar and told him not to take any...then walked out of the room?

    There are alot of game mechanics that could be altered that would target many forms of cheating with minimal or no impact on honest players. But when has EA ever changed any game mechanic to do so? I can't remember one thing they have changed that hasn't just nuked the entire system it was pointed at. The answer is simple: They don't care. Or (as I like to hope) they do care but they don't have the resources to do anything about it nor can they afford to loose the subscriber base if they do. And If I had my choice I'd rather have Draconi focused on another great Magencia like event anyway.

    The player base is now a ratio of die hard UO addicts and automated money making bots. It's probably as good as it's gonna get. The addicts will be beaten again and again by the nerf stick...they'll keep paying. The automatons will only keep paying as long as their ratio is intact over the casual player. An automaton will be sacrificed from time to time to appease the morally correct. It's a little depressing but perfectly legal....thus perfectly right.

    I guess what I'm saying is please just let folks cheat. Anything...whatever is fine....please just stop. Your economy saving changes are screwing it up for me too so I don't care anymore. I heart cheaters.
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    the last time they trained a skill, they did it with the monitor off for added difficulty

    [/ QUOTE ]
    oh cool idea! I've got to try that [​IMG]

    *wonders how much I can intuit about positions by sound-effects alone*
     
  18. Silly Seadog

    Stratics Veteran It's My Birthday

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    <blockquote><hr>

    [*]Someone will make a beautful, witty, insightful post that elucidates everyone's position on the matter wonderfully, bringing all together in a common cause. Unfortunately, due to all of the personal attacks and trolling, the thread will be locked before they can hit the post button.

    [/ QUOTE ]Arrr, that done happened to me so many a-time!!
     
  19. Going "soft on cheaters" only validates my usual Cynical(b)(based on or reflecting a belief that human conduct is motivated primarily by self-interest) outlook ...
    Too much trouble, they're only chillin, it's only a game ... as long as It doesn't affect you, me or them ... why bother ... [​IMG]

    However, [​IMG] what happens as soon as 1 pixel goes "missing" from their little stockpile?
    EVERYONE is at "fault" for allowing those cheating scum to deprive me of blah blah blah bladididdledo!
    Should have been fixing that code! INSTEAD of doing ... (insert random sets of long lists)

    Tsk!
    Humans
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    For those that have trained up Disco know how ridiculous it is. I took a char to legendary about a year ago and used the same method, albeit with Cu Sidhe's. Even with Discoing them for 8 hours a day while I was going to college (and not cheating mind you) it still took a couple weeks. I could only imagine how insane it would be to take the skill to legendary with normal game play.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well I kinda understand the feeling, you just want discord so you can play the game etc etc, you have to realise some players take pride in being 120 skill and dont appreciate other players taking the easy route.

    Personally I dont really mind either way, I find it lame, but understandable.

    But I will simply point out that you just dont know how to train a bard, no offense.

    I have taken two characters to 120 discord, without trapping monsters and/or macroing unattended etc etc, and I did it faster than you describe. I think the reason it took you so long is that you did not kill your targets imho.

    I have another secret I use, which I have posted about in the past, but since you already have UM'd your bard, you have no need for knowledge.
     
  21. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Maybe people have less integrity, or maybe 'integrity' is being redefined. Do you think standards are becoming laxer in general? I don't think UO is a particularly good measuring stick. For one thing the policing in this game is terrible. There are always people who will break the rules to varying degrees. This percentage of rule breakers is affected by the systems of advancement and the degrees of punishment. Since UO has so many repetitive and easily scripted systems that will add to the percentage of cheaters, and since an attended script user cannot be detected by GMs that will also add to the number.

    So now you have a pretty large pool of people who cheat who can't get caught, while you have a dwindling number of people who don't cheat because of the rampant cheating, who either quit in disgust or join the cheaters. Of course there will always be a small group of players who don't cheat, won't quit, and don't care what other players do. I was in that group for a long time, before I started to get really upset about the cheating, but anyways...

    A game with a culture of cheaters is never going to be as successful or well run as a game that encourages people to play within the rules. Mainly because people have different ideas of what constitutes cheating (IE, despite what the rules say, some people think that if they break them for whatever reason it's OK because it isn't hurting anyone), because there will be die hard non cheaters who are upset and vocal about the cheaters, because new/potentially new players will read about the rampant cheating and decide to try a different MMO, etc.

    How to discourage cheating and encourage a level playing field?

    Fixing bugs is a great start, also altering systems so that they are not easily scriptable, or specifically reward attended players, become more interesting with dynamic quest lines for skill gain and reward, loosen up the rules even. I'm really surprised they haven't legalized scripting already actually. They might as well, really. So many other MMOs allow for mods that interact with the interface and do all sorts of fun things.

    A rule that you cannot enforce is worse than useless because it only serves to divide the players and cause animosity and problems.
     
  22. Heh, I've got a 108 Disco Tamer that could use that bit of knowledge.... [​IMG]
     
  23. Guest

    Guest Guest

    "Someone will reply that not only have they never scripted in their lives, the last time they trained a skill, they did it with the monitor off for added difficulty, uphill, both ways, in the snow, thus insinuating that the person from the first reply is a dirty cheater and should probably be killed, irl."

    Not only did i go uphill both ways in the snow, i did it bare-foot and butt naked with a Yeti chasing me.
    Lmfao.

    In my opinion, people who cheat are weak willed and lazy, and rely on them as a crutch to save themselves when their' "skill" fails them. I've been thinking about making a video showing me running around in Fel while people zip past me leaving me in a dustcloud, despite me having a 3200 Mhz Comp, with 4 Gigs of RAM, Cable Conn and a Ping of 23 on average. Even funnier watching them do it while they're casting a FS while in a full run. Should pull out one of my Teleport Rings and use it during the video just to show them still outpacing me.

    I was taught that PvP means Player vs Player. However it appears that some people were taught that PvP means Program vs Player or Program vs Program. Some people say they only speedhack to keep up, and everybody else does it. That's a lame ass excuse, they use their' speedhacks to get away or chase down completely legit people, so they're no better than the person/people that they downloaded the program to compete against in the first place. When it comes down to a fight between 2 or more cheaters, it's an Arms Race, and not just in terms of char equipment. It's whomever downloaded the latest version of the lastest cheat proggy. Then they spout off at the mouth like they're actually skilled. *Sarcasm* Yeah, it takes a whole lot of L33T skill to download a program off a website...*Rolls Eyes*

    But yeah, it seems to me society as a whole is going down the [censored] hole when it comes to integrity/honor.
     
  24. Player banned, pets removed... guess it is still Illegal.
     
  25. Arcus

    Arcus Grand Poobah
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    <blockquote><hr>

    Okay after reading Plucky's thread I decided to start my own thread rather than shanghai Plucky's. There has been ALOT of discussion about cheating in UHall as of late.



    [/ QUOTE ]


    As of late? Are you kidding me?

    People have been talking about cheating, begging for fixes, pleading with the devs to end this scripting that they KNOW they could end tomorrow but don't.

    Please, don't try to make it look like cheating has been ignored by the players up until recently. If you want to specify EA fine , but not us.

    Its been years, many years.
     
  26. Regarding cheating involving animals in your house:

    Perhaps the distinction between RULE BREAKING and CHEATING should be considered when addressing the whole cheating topic. Sometimes there is a significant functional difference, and such is the case regarding trapping animals in your house, as one example.

    It was originally forbidden because when you took anything out of a spawn and kept it in your house, the spawn wouldn't re-spawn in its original location. You could have players out there looking for the Yew sheep herds or the farm animals in Jhelom and they would be just... gone.

    From what I can tell, that issue doesn't exist any more if you take the spawn to a different subserver, or tame it and take it out, I'm not sure if you have to tame it and take it away to get the spawn point to realize its gone and make another one.

    That's where it started, as a bona fide world spawn issue.

    When I think about players taking large numbers of animals into their own houses, I can think of issues like server load and lag to clients who may pass near the player's operation on the animals (whatever he's doing to them). It's also possible that the game balance may not be in-line to handle the accellerated skill gain that can be actuated this way. From a resource standpoint it's questionable too, do you want someone being a gatherer and storer of a hundred or so of the shard's sheep, even if they respawned wild for other players to have? He would shear the sheep and have a huge supply of cloth flowing in, which could be used as a gold farming means. You can see where some applications of it can make for imbalances, even though all of us wouldn't have used trapped sheep to such an extent as to be a gold farmer with them.

    Other than these things, which clearly could be substantial, I can't figure out anything inherantly cheat-like about moving animals into your house and trapping them there for your own purposes. It is not at all cheating in the way that a pot chugging script is, or like, duping, or using an exploit like the alacrity scroll + new haven quest engine was.

    IRL it is human nature to consider animals as tools, we've done it throughout our whole history. The okay-ness is self-evident for an uninitiated player who tames animals and releases them in their own house and does things to them. And it's natural to expect that I can build a stall in my house and put my cu sidhe into it and cast nasties on it to make it gain magic resist. None of this feels like cheating.

    GMs appear to understand that the no-wild-animals-in-house thing is counterintuitive, and I've seen them warn first time 'offenders' instead of putting down punishment.

    So yeah the difference between rule breaking and cheating is there, and discussions about cheating will make more sense in that context.
     
  27. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I remember back in the day when using a coin to wedge the spacebar down on your keyboard in order to repeatedly make your character practice some random skill (i.e. spirit speak, hiding, etc) in the privacy of one's own house wasn't considered "cheating," it was just a clever use of time. In other words, "I'd be perfectly willing to sit here and do this manually, but if I take any more Ferris Bueller days off work to play UO, I'm gonna get fired." It would be hard to call that "cheating," because a person doing that wasn't hurting anyone. It couldn't really be called an unfair advantage any more than being jobless and living in your mom's basement for free could be. But people just had to take it further, and now you've got people running these elaborate scripts that pre-program an entire day's work on 5 computers. There's a glaringly-obvious difference there, but at what point and how finely do you want to draw that line? Easier just to say it's all illegal.

    I remember once meeting a young lady in-game who was on doctor-ordered bedrest because she had become pregnant with triplets, and couldn't work. So she used that free time to do a lot of resource-gathering in UO, and sold it on Ebay for a bit of extra cash. Innocent enough, right? I remember once even reading an article in which Richard Garriott (back when he was still involved with UO) saying that he liked the fact that UO items were being sold on Ebay (not an exact quote, desperately searching for the article to reference but not having any luck). But I think most of us can agree that the business of selling UO items on Ebay has nowadays morphed into something extremely different. What was once, "I don't mind occasionally spending a couple of real-life bucks to save myself hours of monotonous mining" has now become, "I can't mine it myself even if I wanted to--the scriptors are taking it so fast that I don't stand a chance."

    Was it "cheating" back when people were using the little "ocean waves" to infinitely fill a water pitcher? Technically, yes, because it seems pretty clear that a simple glass pitcher should not be able to contain an infinite amount of water. But why? Sosaria is a magical land. I can legally craft an armoire that will magically fit in my backpack, in fact I can even cram over a hundred of them in there. So why is it theoretically impossible that there might be ocean waves that have magical capabilities?

    Yes, there is a difference between cheating and breaking the rules, because cheating is just one of the rules. The reason that it has to be one of the rules is because people are not honest enough to adhere to an acceptable limit of when it goes too far, when it starts to affect others, and when it starts to become an unfair advantage. It might seem unfair to those who think they can keep their "cheating" within ethical bounds, but it doesn't work that way. There will always be idiots that will take advantage.

    I applaud efforts to take a zero-tolerance on cheating, because I hate that a cheater could potentially have any affect at all, no matter how minuscule, on my personal gameplay enjoyment. But I do sometimes worry that the rules have become so indecipherable that even the most scrupulous person could make an innocent mistake and be accused of cheating. Bugs need to be fixed rather than transferring the burden to the players to try and interpret whether or not they are intended gameplay.
     
  28. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Awhile back, i saw a guy in a dirt plot house that had nothing but 2 pens in it, with him provoking two Hiryus against each other, where they couldn't reach each other or him. I called the GMs, one came down, walked up to the guy, asked him he he was there 3 times, and the guy didn't respond, just kept on Provoking the Hiryus. All of a sudden 2 Guards pop up and whacked the Hiryus (Even though we were FAR from a guardzone), all sorts of sound played when they did, like the sound of a dying snake and the sound of a Whirlwind Special going off. A Lightning then hit the guy, he went poof, and the GM thanked me and left. This was about 2 years ago, so it's probably still illegal to do, just most GMs nowadays are too lazy to get off their ass and do anything besides send out canned messages.
     
  29. <blockquote><hr>

    I view cheating as wrong. That is my view, period. What is your view? Do you think in game cheating is a symptom of a changing society attitude? Plz, post and express your thoughts. If you must flame, the PLEASE refrain from posting. Thank you

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Cheating is wrong, but you cite Pluckys thread and if you read through the entire thing you'll see that pretty much everything he's said he's been wrong about. At the start of the thread most of the replies thought it was about provoke, then he's talking about turning off a guild tag as a shady doings!... when think about it what does it achieve? then he's talking about them having a roof on their house.... again nonsense. Then he's talking about them changing from Unicorns to Cu's as another conspiracy when in reality it's because you need to discord harder creatures... and so on and so on.

    Basically what I'm saying is that yes cheating is wrong, but the vast majority of people don't know what their even looking at when they see someone they suspect. They also think that it's ok for them to break the rules trying to smoke out someone they suspect of cheating.

    The reality of it is, EA has established the rules for this game. It is up to them to enforce them, the players responsibility starts and ends with sending a page.
     
  30. Cheating is monitored by those in charge and they determine the amount of cheating that goes on in this game. Lets faceit if this forum was full of people claiming they got banned for using this or ea devs released names of accounts that were banned weekly the cheating would be alot less.

    Thus is just the opposite. With there lackluster enforcement of there own rules cheating is running rampant. If they themselves do little or nothing at all to enforce there rules then us as subscribers cant do anything other then complain. Which is how it is now and has been for a very long time.

    This game used to be fun filled with the occasional cheaters but every game has some. Now this game is being killed and destroyed by people wanting things faster easier cheaper or people wanting anything to give an advantage. Until EA themselves step up nothing will happen.

    On a side note those houses filled with untamed animals cause lag on that part of the server. With tons of houses in those areas and then you add untamed animals that do not belong it brings more lag to the server. Which makes it illegal. Like hiring npc's archers and putting them on the serps dock and have them auto attack any red.
     
  31. truppebob

    truppebob Guest

    This post is from a programmer since 1970 who created the ATM/ABM. The universal banking community stated, if the customer could use the mechanics of the program, they could not be prosecuted under criminal law. If they used devises to get around the program, they were prosecuted. My job was to ensure the program did not allow money to be lost from bad mechanics. I did that job well, the same program survives today.

    In the case of UO:
    ....If the game mechanics allow an exploit, the programmers (EA) must put their thinking caps on, modify the program and remove the capability to exploit the system.
    ...If the user is using a tool (unattended, scripting, speedhacks), then the user can be prosecuted (banned).
    ...Unlike the banks, UO/EA have not invested in monitoring and identifying those who can be prosecuted.

    As a 10 year player of UO, I have never used a script or speed hack. Nor have I played unattended. I have many characters who are legendary from hard work, and up until last month had accumulated almost 3 Billion gp in wealth (goods and gold). I was using boats (50 of them) to store more than a castles worth of items and religiously refreshed them every 3 days (that covers even 2 reverts). All of a sudden, the boats are gone...Sank? Stolen? I page a GM to help regain the over one billion gp stored on the boats. And what do I get....the canned message. Hundreds of hours of sitting IDOCs and killing dragons, doing bods and fighting dragons (my favorite), gone with no interest from the GM. So I terminated my subscription. Too bad for UO .... I have to date given away to new players over 500 3 story houses and over a billion in gold. I have spent hundreds of hours helping new players understand the game. These actions have increased the long term player base by over a thousand players on multiple shards. Do they care that they lost over 10 grand per month in future revenue by having one of the nicest characters in the game quit....I guess not.
     
  32. now im not positive as i dont ever read the rule books and have barely ever read patch notes in my time at this game, but as far as i knew the problem with gaining skills in your house was being AFK and using 3rd party programs to do it for you. i trained provoke to GM in the WBB stable with two cu sidhes i tamed then released there, while doing so i spoke to several players and because i wasnt afk noone seemed to mind. so i might be wrong as to what im posting im just saying i think the issue usually is afk or not and if your using external programs or not.
     
  33. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    Cheating is ok as long as it don't affect others, i shall explain this because i know how all the trammys are.

    Cheating to gain skill - Effects only the char thats gaining the skill.
    Cheating to gain resources - Effects only the person gaining the resources.
    Cheating during pvp - there are two types of cheating in pvp
    Type 1 auto functions - this only effects the char using it, just because someone has a program that auto uses potions/aids/apples/whatever this still does not effect any other player because you can do all this stuff by hand anyways.

    Type 2 Speed Enchancements - There are two types of speed enhancements

    Speed Enhcanements via Speed Increase - This effects everyone you fight because you are running faster then intended.

    Speed Enhancements vis Lag Improvement - This effects only you as it allows you to run at your intended max speed making up for a faulty 10+ year old game.

    So basicly the only real thing i consider wrong in this game is to increase your speed via speed increase program.
     
  34. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Cheating is defined by EA's rules. You signed up to those rules.

    It doesn't matter whether you agree with them or not, you agreed to follow them. If you want to define your own rules, there are always free shards.

    The rules are quite clear on blocking creatures for skill gain. They're not there so we can selectively ignore the ones we don't like.

    You don't hurt anyone cheating? Rubbish. If cheats weren't in UO, we could see systems developed that didn't need timers and fixes to prevent/slow down cheats. Those affect legit players daily so don't come the nonsense that you hurt nobody. That's before we mention economic effects of your "harmless" cheating.

    Wenchy
     
  35. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Yep, like i thought, you're a cheater. Could tell by your mentality and attitude when you were completely Pro-Scripter in another thread and said you don't care how they get it, just as long as you can pay cheap. That's completely the "Type A" mentality that Jirel of Joiry was talking about. The "GIMME GIMME NOW!" mentality, which has often been associated with "Trammies". If you ever played a Legit Craftsman, then you would damn well know how scripters affect the economy, and in a bad way.

    "Speed Enhancements vis Lag Improvement - This effects only you as it allows you to run at your intended max speed making up for a faulty 10+ year old game."
    Lmfao, i find this hilarious, just the usual excuse that cheaters give. If you were intended to run at a certain speed, then you would be. Look at any other MMO, if you don't got a decent comp/conn/ping, you're not gonna run at the max legal speed, doesn't have anything to do with a "faulty 10+ year old game." A speedhack is a speedhack, the two things you listed is just what speedhackers say to attempt to justify it. Even if a person was using a speedhack for the "Speed Enhancements vis Lag Improvement" excuse, they'd still be laggy. All it would do is make them move farther before they lag, they'd stop for a second due to lag, then leap frog several tiles.
     
  36. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    Cheating is defined by EA's rules. You signed up to those rules.

    It doesn't matter whether you agree with them or not, you agreed to follow them. If you want to define your own rules, there are always free shards.

    The rules are quite clear on blocking creatures for skill gain. They're not there so we can selectively ignore the ones we don't like.

    Wenchy

    [/ QUOTE ]
    EA forces you to sign that you will follow the rules or you cant make an account, also I didn't create the account im playing on so techical i didn't agree to any rules when i started playing on it. Either way im do what I want because EA allows me to.
     
  37. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    Yep, like i thought, you're a cheater. Could tell by your mentality and attitude when you were completely Pro-Scripter in another thread and said you don't care how they get it, just as long as you can pay cheap. That's completely the "Type A" mentality that Jirel of Joiry was talking about. The "GIMME GIMME NOW!" mentality, which has often been associated with "Trammies". If you ever played a Legit Craftsman, then you would damn well know how scripters affect the economy, and in a bad way.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    ROFL omg man thanks for the laugh, Ill brb got to clean my computer screen of the coke i just spit on it laughing.






    Ok im back and did you imply i was a "trammy" but you're the one that plays a crafter? That was pretty good one man.
     
  38. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Nope, how it works is this - if you don't want to agree to the rules, you don't install and play UO. It doesn't matter if you bought the account - you own the account, so it's your responsibility to ensure you follow the rules.

    Wenchy
     
  39. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    Nope, how it works is this - if you don't want to agree to the rules, you don't install and play UO. It doesn't matter if you bought the account - you own the account, so it's your responsibility to ensure you follow the rules.

    Wenchy

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Well i just told you im not gonna follow them so what are you gonna do about it?