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Thoughts on the Town Hall announcements of the new new client and SA compatability...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Dermott of LS, Aug 30, 2008.

  1. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    (Note: These are my personal thoughts, opinions, and reactions. While I have my own biases and opinions, I will be respectful and will NOT be posting to start a client flamewar and will be monitoring my own thread accordingly.)

    Ok, that was hectic... lots of information and trying to balance getting a question asked in real time via getting attention from ingame, listening to the Town Hall, doing the bullet points, and having to take a few "breaks" (which they didn't this time... did they have bottles behind the podium?).

    So putting it all together.

    The "SA" Client.

    I had been wondering if the lack of REAL KR updates was due to abandonment or a possible "re-release" of the client and now we have the answer. Looks like a complete revamp of the KR client using the Gamebryo engine. Personally, I look forward to seeing how this will be done and if they really do address not only the key issues of stability and performance, but a LONG checklist of wants, desires and suggestions that a bunch of us built up and posted to the KR focus Group (on top of several months' worth of threads in the same group).

    Now I will be the FIRST person to say that the KR client has always had issues. It hasn't been perfect, but if you can get it running and take the time to learn the system, it's really a very nice client... not perfect, but nice... better than the 3d client, and technologically MUCH better than 2d.

    HOWEVER, I can also say that I wouldn't recommend the KR client with the DEFAULT UI. The Default UI sucks plain and simple.

    Because of that, what developed that I have been a part of has been a quite amazing experience and has had great feedback. I wouldn't have thought that we'd be able to actually fix bugs and add in enhancements (to the tune of 30+ specific requests and more in the process). A good core group of people have done an amazing job at creating the artwork, creating new ideas for enhancements, adding in stuff that should have been in from the start, fixing UI bugs, and packaging everything together.

    To be perfectly honest from June through now, I think I've spent more time futzing around with tweaking at least three different KR User Interfaces than I have actually playing the game. That has given me a LOT more respect for the Devs (specifically the coders on the team) because working with a couple of the other mod coders, we've created some rather weird bugs ourselves, often unintentionally. I can only imagine what the devs actually go through.

    Back to the new SA client... I'm interested to see what comes of it. I know a lot of people are outright skeptical if not already finding a reason to hate it, but I'm interested in seeing how it works out.

    SA Client and Modding

    One of the talks that Zym specifically and I have had has been basically the question of "What if it's a rerelease of KR and it breaks our mods?" Well, on one hand, it will be a little bit of a downer to see our work be negated or made to not work with the SA Client, but if the client actually fixes the current KR problems, we're willing to "start from zero". It will be a little saddening if it breaks Zym's project because we believe that his project will do a LOT to help people warm up to KR. There are early versions availible, and the feedback has been good so far.

    I had initially wanted to ask if they were going to be working on KR once the event stuff was taken care of, but since that got answered so quickly, I tried to get the question of "Will the SA client be moddable" answered. While we don't have an answer yet, I know I hope it will be as I'm sure the rest of the core group of the Exchange hope so as well.

    I think it's needless to say (but I will anyway) that if the SA client IS moddable, you will see the Modder's Exchange remain active and accepting tickets for bug fixes, enhancements, and new features for the UI.

    SA (the expansion) and 2d access

    Now, I want to start out with the following: To my knowledge, I do not recall stating that I would quit UO if SA were not KR only.

    However, I do still hold the opinion that the LBR-style backpedal is still a HUGE mistake and that we DO need to get to the point of getting rid of the Legacy client because it DOES simply hold UO back on a technological level (which should have been made apparent by the comments on the way boats work and why we can't have a Pirate expansion yet, and why the 2d client has not had its resolution upgraded.

    I don't hate the Legacy client, I played it when I started UO up until 3d was smooth enough for me to make the swap (and really 3d was still Legacy with a slightly better UI and better animation and resolution support). But I do think that it is past time to let it go.

    Any retail box is not going to have Legacy client pictures... at least if it wants to be taken seriously. They NEED a revamped client if we want a shelf presence.

    So I do think it's a mistake, I wish they had not decided to backpedal on the issue, but no I don't yet plan on quitting.

    Right now I plan on seeing how the revamp of KR into the SA client will be achieved and what the new new client will make available to us. I personally hope it blows the KR client out of the water in terms of quality and I hope it can retain (or be made to retain) the feel of UO in the process.

    So here's looking forward to the new client and hoping that the Modder's Exchange will be able to continue what work we've been able to do to make it even better.
     
  2. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I feel like I am playing in a blender set to frappé.
     
  3. Arcus

    Arcus Grand Poobah
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    So lets see...

    Third Dawn 3D client -Killed although a small % used and liked it. No major bug fixes for quite some time until it was finally killed of by....

    KR Client - Killed although a larger than Third Dawn crowd adopted it, modded it and even loved it. Some small bug fixes in the beginning then neglected until....

    SA client - Havent they learned ANYTHING yet?

    Apparently not...
     
  4. Frarc

    Frarc Stratics Legend
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    I already told you, i love what you guys are doing with the skins and with modders exchange. I sure hope you guys can keep doing this. :)


    I just wonder if our current KR client will be patched up too the new one or will it be completle new install needed for it.
     
  5. HD2300

    HD2300 Certifiable
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    I think it was obvious that when enhancements and bug fixes to KR stopped 10 months ago, that KR would be canned.
     
  6. Joyous2K

    Joyous2K Guest

    Anyone nail down a date for the new things? What was the timeline for SA client? I thought I heard something like it's a year away. Anyone else hear that?

    Like a year being Jan. 2009 or a year meaning August 2009 or a year meaning January 2010? Anyone have a rough idea?

    Well, they said a lot and I hope some of all that talk works out into the game. The town hall sounded like fun.
     
  7. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    They could make up a date, but I think the ruling rule right now is "it will be done when it's done and no sooner".
     
  8. It's on the radar.
     
  9. Doomsday Dragon

    Doomsday Dragon Visitor

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    You should never give up on the idea of a new client that is actually good.

    The 2d client is so loaded with restrictions on a technical level that it does in fact hold back much of what UO could be. I actually think they should take the 2d artwork and rework it into higher resolution versions which would mean that everything looks the same but much sharper and if they did that they could write a new client in a better format that is less restrictive from a development POV.

    Removing the technical restrictions and sharpening the classic graphics could bring this game back to the top where it once was. I believe this is the idea they had in mind however with something like KR the graphics changed to something completely new vs cleaning up the classic graphics. If the KR graphics were not completely different from the classic graphics and if the problems in the KR client were worked out I would be willing to switch from 2d and learn a new UI.
     
  10. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    It should have both (more)= better and may re-interest vets.
     
  11. Crysta

    Crysta Babbling Loonie
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    Actually, from what I understood the "SA" client is just KR optimized and reskinned, with additional art and sound improvements and bug and UI fixes. Basically what we should have been getting over time... but I kinda understand that if we had, they would have been held up listening to our comments and complaints on every single tiny piece. But yeah.. KR ain't dead.. it's just gettin an upgrade to v2.0.
     
  12. Sebrina

    Sebrina Guest

    :mf_prop: Drops loveable Kelmo onto the blender blade!

    :pint: Hmm, pretty good!

    :shots: Everyone have some!

    Intoxicating !!!

    :) Just teasing you Kelmo - all is good!
     
  13. Cadderly

    Cadderly Journeyman
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    So I got excited at first listening to WRR. Good news for the future indeed. Although threw about a hour all I wanted to do was scream. We are looking at 6, 12, 18 months before the release and they wan't 2 hours of question and answer about something that isn't going to happen for a long time. I really don't feel better about the currents game status especially since now that I know gargoyles won't be able to wear human/elf armor.(sarcasm)

    Every decent question wasn't answered. It was scribbled down on paper or the person was requested to send it in via feedback. Why not get players excited about today so they stay for tommarow?

    I really feel like a fish that keeps getting hooked into promises of a taisty meal and slowely realed into being a meal on somebody elses platter. Yet I keep taking the bait
     
  14. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    If they want the Kingdom Reborn version 2.0 client to succeed they better have someone who does a lot of PVP testing it every step of the way or it is doomed for failure. You could dress it up as much as you want, but if 2D is still the better PVP client then you will never win over the player base.
     
  15. HD2300

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    I was hoping they would have announced that SA would be released in 2 or 3 months.

    But THE EPIC EVENT is that they have reannounced what was announced more than two years ago, a new expansion called SA and a new client, ETA unknown. Someone please tell me that this is a joke.
     
  16. Der Rock

    Der Rock Guest



    so, i am not extremly impressed about SA, it is on a 12 month timeline, so what care´s me
    what happen in 12 month, we need fixes urgently, they told us almost the same things 12+ month ago.
    new SA-KR client ?
    i think they listen to my posts shortly after KR release, many things i posted in the past are in now. ;)
    but also, if they still demand players feedback and suggestions from the player for the SA-KR client, they barly have learnd or listen in the past, because almost ALL
    open issues got pointed out in the past, since KR-Beta.
    i fear, that the SA-KR client get released and the whole crap starts afresh.

    Sure, they can have a livetime expand for UO for another 10-20 years, no wonder if they work as they did in the past.if they do a major step forward only every 6-12 month.

    after 10 years UO and a poorly release of KR, they demand another chance for SA-KR new release from us customer,but i barly think that most will pay or stay again for another crapy
    BETA release.

    let see what will come. till KR is not READY i will furthermore save my mo´
    and let only 1 acc open periodical.
     
  17. Belmarduk

    Belmarduk Guest

    Hm Interesting
    This might even make me reopen my account assoon as I hear the client is finished and running stable

    Lets hope they learn from past mistakes...again...

    Get that client 100% stable and functional (is it a real 3D client ????) and when it is REMOVE BOTH OLD CLIENTS AT THE SAME TIME !!!!!! no more dual-client BULL**** ! We had that mistake for years...

    The UO .....might.... get to its former glory again....
     
  18. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    SA client, in my opinion, is just a compromise. They are not going to just drop KR after dedicating so much bandwidth to the project. So they will give it one final push and what you get with SA will pretty much be it. At end of the day, this is going to be a significantly scaled down final product than originally envisioned. Expecting more than this will most likely lead to disappointment. Just the feeling I get from the comments and all that has happened to this point.
     
  19. Yantri

    Yantri Guest

    Cal stated repeatedly, and Jeremy reinforced, at the Town Hall meeting;

    The KR Client is not going ANYWHERE!

    Additional updates and fixes are forthcoming, but the SA project has all of their resources tied up at the moment.

    I mean, they JUST launched a website to host the Modder Community for the KR Client!
     
  20. NewThunder

    NewThunder Guest

    First, I was glad to hear of a new client being built from scratch, this shows me that they understand that KR is a complete failure; the KR client was doomed from the start because they did not put enough time in the planning and developement. I logged into KR to get some dark knight rewards and just laughed when I saw my char gliding diagonally on their mount, whomever did the mount animations for KR should be Banned from working on any games in the future.

    This SA client will only succeed if it builds on the look and feel of the classic client, and if the UI builds on the current classic UI, so that a person trying the new client doesnt feel like they are playing a completely new game.

    I am very worried about the time frame, new content is needed soon, 12 - 18 months is not going to cut it.
     
  21. Hopefully on the SA client they wont repeat the mistakes of the KR client.
    And will use more of the legacy UI, altho I do like the concept of having UOA features built it, not at the expense of completely learning a new game.

    Everythign doesn't have to be like WoW, ya know.
    And most of us wont really mind giving up the 2d client, provided the new client can do what it does...such as setting things down on the floor, LOL, and decent animations for movement.
     
  22. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Let's see a few points I want to reply to:

    JC: You're right, but they need more than just a PvP person testing, they need as many different people who play each different activity UO has to make sure that everything is covered. Also, a PvP player has to actually USE and learn the client, not declare "it sucks" 5 minutes after logging in and never logging in again.

    New Thunder: If KR failed they wouldn't bother building upon it for the revamp, they would have simply dropped the client completely and used the 2d client. So in short "I disagree with what you said"

    Yantri: the Modder's Exchange is in no way run by the UO Dev team. The only contact the Exchange has had with the Dev Team have been the initial emails informing Jeremy of it to make sure we did not add anything that would be deemed "illegal", and to make the press release. We have sent one other email to Jeremy regarding something we found elsewhere online and its ppotential legalities, but have not yet received word back. Mythic did not open the Exchange, players of UO and posters to this site did.
     
  23. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    *Does immature dance!*

    So, I was right and you were wrong?

    I told you there was no way SA wouldn't patch through for the legacy client for a bunch of different reasons. What you still fail to realise is those same people that play legacy for the most part don't play games like WoW. If they wanted to play a graphically intensive ever evolving game with actual players they would already be playing WoW. For some reason, you fail to realise this and keep asking them to make UO into yet another WoW clone with a new engine as the only option. The developers have been smart enough to not do this.

    Its funny they are going to basically TRY again with yet another KR. The problem is that its still the same old crappy programmers.

    Also, I don't agree for a moment that they should dump the legacy client, but they should redo the legacy client (like Eve Online did) and add in some more functionality and fix a lot of old bugs and update the 2d graphics (I've seen better 2d Graphics on SNES and Sega Genesis ffs).
     
  24. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Hopefully they learned that the vast majority of players are more easily wrapped around truely 3d (WoW clone) graphics than any overtop view crap and that will hopefully make them shoot more for emulating WoW with UO content when they redo the engine. This is what they should have done with KR.

    Its a start, but they really need to work on the tediousness of the systems and the skill gains before they will ever be able to actually market this game on a large scale.

    As for legacy, as much as I hate the idea of dumping it, they really need to do something about it because the majority of people cheating are running legacy (KR doesn't work with UOAssist or other scripting programs).

    However, if you fix the systems to remove the stuidity then its very likely you won't really need to worry about the majority of cheats.
     
  25. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    Let me make this as clear as I can...

    They WILL NEVER remove the legacy client. If you don't like the legacy client and want to play a 3d engine (WoW clone) then just go play WoW.

    UO was ONLY "on top" when there were no other MMORPGs. As soon as its first competitor came out (EverQuest) it was no longer on top. EQ had more numbers than UO upon release. They added Trammel to try to counteract that. The numbers were on the rise until AoS (where they capped) until they made the stupidity of the AoS system and SWG came out and siphoned even more of the player base off. Then UO started hemoraging numbers to 3rd gen games.
     
  26. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    They need to learn a new game? Thats basically what "learning" a completely new client comes down to right? Please tell me why they would take the time to learn a new game (for the most part) and not make it one with actual players that has a guaranteed future. I know WoW isn't going anywhere any time soon, so I don't mind relearning it, but I really don't have that confidence in UO. I think the lack of confidence in UO turns a lot of people off from relearning anything about it.

    Its EA. When have you ever known them, in 10+ years, to EVER listen to what the people that actually play the game actually want? If 95% of the players said dump KR to keep Legacy they would ignore that if the lead developer decided they wanted to make a new KR anyways. We were told at AoS that this was the developers game and we were just stuck playing it the way they wanted to make it. The response to that statement was 150k players left in about 6 months.
     
  27. 3 more pulses and we're Pesto? <shakes head>
     
  28. Amen.

    I (speak for approx 50% of the playerbase when I say we) will quit UO the day they disable 2D. Regardless of how fantastic the new SA or KR client may be. I'm/we're not buying a new PC (I'm running on a Pentium IV, and will be using this for the next 10 years), nor am I /are we going to bother re-learning a new client.

    Just as we don't force you to use 2D (let them have dual/triple clients), don't force us to use KR/SA. Otherwise, you're killing off half the playerbase.
     
  29. Velvathos

    Velvathos Lore Keeper
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    Gamebryo engine!??! ARE YOU SERIOUS?

    There is NO WAY they can make this engine look bad, that is the engine that for Elder Scrolls uses, Warhammert, Fallout 3, DAOC, Empire Earth II and III have, there is no excuse why SA should look bad with this engine, it is possibly one of the best engines that there is... :)
     
  30. was that sarcasm?
    cause thats the engine that runs KR, and they certainly made it look bad!
    LOL
     
  31. Der Rock

    Der Rock Guest


    listen, they can do, if they want, to make the UI in KR like it is almost in 2D
    if u have suggestions what u like to see in the KR UI ask the modders,
    if u would have an 1:1 copy of the 2D client UI in KR would u then let 2D passes away?
    if u answer with NO.....
    then i can tell u, that I THINK that more then 50% of 2D user a simple scripter/cheater who uses this damn 3rdparty prog, and i would LOVE to see this scum go out of the game at all
     
  32. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Let's NOT get into the 2d is for exploiters or any such accusations. While it IS an issue, I don't want it to turn into a "2d users are exploiters" accusation in any way.

    There WILL be cheat programs in KR/SA before the end of it all. No client is exploit/hack proof.

    KR/SA/Gamebryo IMO has enough to argue FOR it that the exploit argument doesn;t even need to be considered.

    So I request that such statements be removed.
     
  33. Der Rock

    Der Rock Guest



    I dont say there will be no cheating in KR, but in KR with the new macro system and all, u can compare,
    in 2D if u dont cheat u have almost 0 chance to compare, right or false?
     
  34. Experimental

    Experimental Lore Keeper
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    Cal also said to me after Town Hall was over that SA will released sometime next year...that means anywhere from 1-1-09 until 12-31-09.
    During the meeting he said only approx 20% of the player base plays KR so 2D isn't going anywhere, period.
     
  35. Velvathos

    Velvathos Lore Keeper
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    So, the developers were smart enough to add insurance, trammel rulesets left and right, make the game as item based as possible, prataclly use the same UI as WoW, adding in targeting, which make PvP in UO more of a button smashing than it has ever been before.. All this, taken from WoW and or other modern MMORPG's... UO was suspose to be a sandbox game, you fail to realize, over the years, it has become a lot more like WoW. UO was suspose to be a game where there was no player restrictions that didn't make sense. While UO doesn't have player restrictions, people are able to restrict themselves anyways. For example, WoW has no Full Player Loot, that is a restriction.

    But I agree with you for the most part.. Gameplay > Graphics

    UO does need a graphics update though, I won't lie, keep the gameplay, and get new graphics, it doesn't have to be anything re-markable, make the graphics look good, animations don't matter, they don't need to look good cause then there will be less lag... A game such as Ultima Online has earned the right to some decent graphics for once along with some kickass gameplay..
     
  36. Der Rock

    Der Rock Guest

    doesnt suprise anyone why only 20% play KR , last patch was when?? 10 month or more ago?
     
  37. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Obviously a cheater is going to have an advantage over someone who doesn't, but that doesn't mean that people are using 2d just to be able to cheat.

    We (a couple of us at the Exchange) have already sent Jeremy an email with a link to a post on a board (not posting it here for reasons I'm about to show) that has evidence that the main game files of KR have already been decyphered (the way that InsideUO does for the MUL files, someone has apparently begun the process with KR's UOP files).

    The reason why I'm not posting the link and why noone h as gone forward on an InsideKR is because we're still unsure on the legality of using what has been posted at that site, thus the emails to Jeremy.

    However there's also a better than good chance that the same knowledge that can produce a harmless and helpful Inside KR can also be used to promote the same style of cheat programs that currently are used in 2d (not just out of game macro scripts, but actual hacks).

    Because of that, claiming that KR has some advantage against cheaters compared to 2d is not a legitimate argument.

    Furthermore, constantly linking 2d to exploit/hack programs in such a manner can be considered accusatory and flame baiting which is something I want to avoid from EITHER side in this thread.

    So, please, no more of it.
     
  38. Velvathos

    Velvathos Lore Keeper
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    I knew it was the same engine.. :D

    In fact, wikipedia doesn't even have KR listed as a gamebryo game.... :hahaha:

    Gamebyro is the same engine that Elder Scrolls: Oblivon and Morrowind use, along with Fallout 3, I KID YOU NOT!

    That is why I couldn't understand how KR looked so horrible..
     
  39. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Ducky for Wikipedia, which while moderated can be written by anyone and thus include whatever subtle bias of the writer.
     
  40. Velvathos

    Velvathos Lore Keeper
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    Yeah, but it also shows us how popular UO is.. Err, how bad the marketing is..
     
  41. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    You won't get any argument from me on the lack of marketing.

    I mean you want to see the discrepency, look at the Japanese UO site linked by Athos compared to our own.
     
  42. Belmarduk

    Belmarduk Guest

    and: Also, I don't agree for a moment that they should dump the legacy client, but they should redo the legacy client (like Eve Online did) and add in some more functionality and fix a lot of old bugs and update the 2d graphics (I've seen better 2d Graphics on SNES and Sega Genesis ffs).


    1. Eve Trinity is a NEW engine - The Classic Client does NOT exist anymore. The "Classic" Client is an optional client for slower machines. It runs on the new Trinity Engine. Thats the way it should be - No old client should hold up a more modern client !

    2. If this new client is really programmed from scratch - It should have the functionality of a modern client (3D option for those who want it) - The feel of classic UO Client but there should only be ONE Client.

    Forget legacy 2D/3D and KR - ONE client for all players.Period
     
  43. NewThunder

    NewThunder Guest

    I guess you and I will always disagree on that. However I did not read the reports as a building on, rather a fresh attempt to build a client, though they are using the same engine as KR.

    I find it hard to fathom that they will now be supporting 3 clients! That is at least one too many.
     
  44. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    On the 3 clients I agree. When they get the SA client done it needs to replace KR, no doubt about that.

    I guess that's where I differ from a lot of people though... get the new one done and ditch the old ASAP.

    KR needed to be improved, I'll agree there 100% (I know I sent in about 5 peoples' worth of bug reports, participated in other forums, and done what I could to help when the devs stopped releasing patches).

    The way that I read it really is that the changes are being done all at once and that it will in effect be a new client because of that (as opposed to the weekly Patchurdays KR started with).

    But then it sounded like the entirety of SA was done the same way once the move was done and the new team was in place. (Speaking of which, does anyone remember how long it was between the time Necromancy was ORIGINALLY proposed and when it finally got ingame and how different the two systems were?)
     
  45. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    Single client for a single mind. No, that we have options to choose from is quite nice..
     
  46. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Why spend more time than needed? People could tell within 5 minutes that KR was garbage after walking around and trying to manipulate items. It isn't as bad at release, but it is still not on a level acceptable for intense PVP combat. I've tried to run it several times and the myriad of issues just makes it impossible.

    Getting someone who is a hardcore PVPer is going to be a lot more difficult than finding the type of people you are talking about. The development team has made claims in the past they had someone who knows PVP, but it was clear they were not that into it. Someone who PVP's is going to hold the client to much more stringent standards than a casual player. And if the PVP person accepts the client more than likely the casual crowd will also.
     
  47. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Like I said though, the PvPer(s) in question have to be willing to work with the client and not hit the top right corner X to crash out of the client then bad mouth it on the forums endlessly.

    It's not that I don't think there are people who can help in that regard, it's just that I think the attitude of said people isn't conducive to such help.

    With that being said, I would love to be proven wrong in that regard. And I don't mean the people in question need to be "kool-aid siping KR/SA client fanboys", but they DO have to be willing to work with the client and send in detailed reports on what is wrong with it, what they want from it and so on.

    I WANT the new client revamp to be even better than KR and I hope we can get people involved in every facet of the game to help it reach that point.
     
  48. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    This is not some beta test I am talking about. It is a hired QA person who spends all day gathering data and submitting feedback to the developers how to make the client PVP ready. If they don't have such a person working for them right now, it is going to be pure luck whether the client is acceptable for PVP. Game clients make or break MMOs. You can't throw one together and expect to fix it later, as was even evidenced by KR now.
     
  49. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Gotcha. Yeah, I can understand that. But my point also stands as well. It takes BOTH... hired QA and players' input.
     
  50. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    The problem with player input is when the beta comes around it is already too late to go fix fundamentals, such as character movement.