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[BUG] Throwing first throw miss

Discussion in 'UO Test Center' started by Cetric, Mar 28, 2010.

  1. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Here is a bug for you...

    I was testing throwing.

    no matter what i could not hit a single thing on my first throw, fine on second, 3rd, 4th, etc. i threw at mongbats, pigs, deer, horses, you name it.


    This was with 120 throwing, 50hci, 120 swords and a soul glaive.


    i had this with 2 different chars, no shield on like someone suggested. Any ideas?

    can someone else try to test this as well to make sure it isn't just me? i sent in a bug report as well.
     
  2. Cailleach

    Cailleach Certifiable
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    Aha, now I understand; you first put this up in UHall, and it didn't get moved over!
     
  3. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
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    I dont know much about throwing, but by judging of hearsay of people who have tried it...I wouldnt touch it with a ....anything.
     
  4. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    001a. Rabbit -- w/ 0 Throwing (30 innate) hit first hit (forgot to set throwing, lol)

    FIRST HIT TEST
    120 throwing 120 swords 120 bushido (used for heals ... does this effect HCI due to parry tie in, even if I have 0 parry? hrm...) Hit Test, 50 HLD, 0 HCI, 50 hit fireball, HLL 24, DI 53, Luck 118, Verite Boomerang, normal hits -- 115 STR 45 DEX 105 INT

    001. Slith -- miss
    002. Slith -- miss
    003. Slith -- hit
    004. Lowland Boura -- hit
    005. Lowland Boura -- miss
    006. Ruddy Boura -- miss
    007. A Greater Mongbat -- miss
    008. Slith -- hit
    009. Slith -- miss
    010. Mongbat -- hit
    011. Ortanord -- miss
    012. Toxic Slith -- miss
    013. A Tropical Bird -- miss
    014. A Ruddy Boura -- miss
    015. Slith -- miss
    016. A Chicken Lizard -- miss
    017. A Chicken Lizard -- miss
    018. A Silver Serpent -- miss
    019. A Lowland Boura -- miss
    020. A Greater Mongbat -- miss
    021. A Slith -- hit
    022. A Mongbat -- miss
    023. A Silver Serpent -- hit
    024. A Slith -- miss
    025. Lowland Boura -- miss
    026. Mongbat -- miss
    027. A Chicken Lizard -- miss
    028. A Tropical Bird -- miss
    029. Lowland Boura -- miss
    030. A Rat -- miss

    6/30 = 20% first hit

    120 throwing 120 swords Hit Test, 50 HLD, 0 HCI, 50 hit fireball, HLL 24, DI 53, Luck 118, Verite Boomerang, normal hits -- 115 STR 130 DEX 20 INT

    001. Lowland Boura -- miss
    002. A Rat -- miss
    003. Mongbat -- miss
    004. Chicken Lizard -- miss
    005. Slith -- miss
    006. Lowland Boura -- miss
    007. Chicken Lizard -- miss
    008. Tropical Bird -- miss
    009. A Silver Serpent -- miss
    010. Mongbat -- miss
    011. Lowland Boura -- miss
    012. Greater Mongbat -- miss
    013. Woodpecker -- hit
    014. Greater Mongbat -- miss
    015. Skree -- hit
    016. Snake -- miss
    017. Kingfisher -- miss
    018. Snake -- miss
    019. Lowland Boura -- miss
    020. Snake -- miss
    021. Skree -- miss
    022. Horse -- miss
    023. Greater Mongbat -- miss
    024. Mongbat -- miss
    025. Horse -- miss
    026. Greater Mongbat -- hit
    027. Greater Mongbat -- miss
    028. Hind -- miss
    029. Greater Mongbat -- miss
    030. Lowland Boura -- hit

    4/30 = 13.33% first hit

    I don't know if STR or DEX improves HCI ... I think STR improves range ... forget what DEX improves ... but I'm tired of hitting stuff for now lol. Out of 30 random targets, I actually hit less on first hit when I raised dex, and I probably hit mostly weaker things too, so that's odd. But, 30 trials isn't going to provide very accurate data, I guess.

    However, and maybe it's a matter of "sweet spots," but to me, yeah, I have to agree, Throwing is pretty terrible. Ought to have a very high chance w/ 120 to hit things with 0-40 especially. Missing a bird for example is pretty dumb.
     
  5. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Thank you sooo much for basically confirming my trials. And laying it out so well.

    Even though throwing is weaker/worse than other melee skills i do actually have a plan for it. hehe

    Now i did try to stay in "the sweetspot" when i was doing it, and i did not record data like this, very very nice. I'll see what i can compile if i get a chance tonight. But i think it is safe to say that something is wrong.
     
  6. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I got too tired, would have tried more :/, damn sleep thing ;D.

    But yeah, I totally need to reread how DEX/STR is supposed to work, not sure how useful my data is. Most of the time what I did was attack something out of range, then I waited in my spot to hit it. But I'm also wondering if having bushido (and 0 parry) effected my hit chances.
     
  7. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    At first i thought you where just complaining

    BUT looking at the numbers it does appear something is amiss
     
  8. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    Well with the changes i was starting to worry that I deleted throwing prematurely !
    Not so much after seeing this!
     
  9. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Tested for myself, wanted to setup a chart like he did.

    Tested with 125 str, 150dex (190 stamina)

    120 throwing, 120 swords, 50 hci, 30 dci

    Soul glaive w/ 25ssi 45 dmg inc 44 hit lightning 40hld


    First throw:

    1. mongbat ------------hit 2nd (dead)
    2. mongbat ------------miss 2nd - hit
    3. headless one --------miss 2nd - hit
    4. skeleton ------------miss 2nd - hit
    5. zombie ------ -------miss 2nd - hit
    6. a pig ----------------hit 2nd (died)
    7. a nightingale --------miss 2nd - hit
    8. a horse -------------miss 2nd - hit
    9. wraith --------------miss 2nd - hit
    10. a woodpecker ------miss 2nd - hit
    11. a skree -------------miss 2nd - hit
    12. a snake ------------miss 2nd - hit
    13. a wandering healer - miss 2nd - miss
    14. slith --------------- miss 2nd - hit
    15. a ruddy boura - -----miss 2nd - miss
    16. a ruddy boura ------hit 2nd - hit
    17. slith --------------- miss 2nd - hit
    18. toxic slith ----------hit 2nd - hit
    19. a hind --------------miss 2nd - hit
    20. a great hart --------miss 2nd - hit
    21. a hind ------------- hit 2nd - hit
    22. a mongbat ----------miss 2nd - hit
    23. a rat ---------------miss 2nd - hit
    24. a sheep - -----------miss 2nd - hit
    25. a wandering healer - miss 2nd - hit
    26. a polar bear --------miss 2nd - hit
    27. a grey wolf -------- miss 2nd - hit
    28. a polar bear -------- hit 2nd- hit
    29. a snake ------------miss 2nd - hit
    30. a rat - -------------miss 2nd hit


    On first hit i hit:

    6/30 20%



    On second hit i hit:


    26/28 92.8% (other 2 tests died on the first hit)


    The only 2 misses on the second throws were against a wandering healer and a boura. 2 Creatures that i may expect to miss on some occasion.


    The 6 hits on the first throw came against:

    a mongbat
    a pig
    a boura
    a toxic slith
    a hind
    a polar bear

    While several misses came from rats, snakes, mongbats, just tons and tons of low level creatures.

    So something doesn't add up quite right =/
     
  10. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    *has a strange feeling that this is getting swept under the rug*
     
  11. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Hmm. For kicks i ran around, today again.

    If i throw at a mongbat and miss.

    then i run away and attack something else, in this case a horse, it hits.


    if i attack something right after that hit, i will miss, if i go attack soemthing else it hits.


    Maybe it isn't the first hit, maybe it is you cannot hit twice in a row for some reason. Though it doesn't appear that way in the previous data collected, unless something changed.
     
  12. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    yea hmm..


    just tested this on a wandering healer sicne they have more hp then a mongbat.


    was miss
    hit
    miss
    hit
    miss
    hit
    miss
    hit
    miss
    hit



    can any devs confirm there is a problem?



    Now on origin, it appear to be the previous problem mixed with this one. i missed anything and everything with my first throw, except the first thing i threw at (mongbat) But if i attacked a pig, it would be miss hit hit, a cow, miss hit hit, a deer, miss hit hit. i tried a horse, but at 50 throwing they won't be a good test =/

    I followed this up by attacking a mongbat, missing, then running and attacking a dog, it was hit hit hit 3 for 3.

    WTH!


    *frustrated*
     
  13. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Am i the only person in and involved with UO that has any interest in throwing? lol
     
  14. Hildebrand

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    I feel for ya. I don't have throwing yet to confirm an I bet many haven't trained it to 120 to fully see the glitch.
    I am planning on a Garg with -mage skill on a throwing weapon.

    I suggest if testing, don't have HLD, just so you get more even numbers. Since first hit would lower the defense therefore making second hit an almost guarantee.
    Also don't have a shield since it lowers your hit chance I think?

    To quote the playguide:
    "Underthrown - If, while equipped, a weapon has a maximum range of six tiles, and a player throws at a player two tiles away (too close) they have a Hit Chance penalty of 12%, but no damage reduction."

    "The player will suffer a Defense and Hit Chance penalty for using a shield while using a throwing weapon. These penalties can be offset by investing skill points into Parrying. "
     
  15. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Wow 12% ... that's intense, haha. I threw most mine at max, so not sure how it works except if it calculates when it hits, and not when you throw.

    Since targets keep moving and are never stationary.

    Hm. I'm sure an expert can figure it out; Throwing requires Cal, or an expert, to break down all those gritty details, all the checks and balances. To a casual player, yeah, not many will continue to use Throwing as it is now.
     
  16. Hildebrand

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    The idea of a "sweet spot" is interesting, but in UO, nothing really stays on "spot" (except for reapers & corpsers) therefore, throwing bites as is.

    Maybe a certain SPELL with a "sweet spot" would've been a better implementation, but not the boomerangs.
     
  17. Hildebrand

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    Oh and I'm guessing throwing is also subject to the moving penalty of your char like archery is?!? (hence the moving shot special?) Therefore, you move to get a better range, and you get penalized for moving? If so, then this really bites!
     
  18. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    This is true.
    I was in close beta and when I and various testers pointed out 15-tile one handed ARCHERY (aka throwing) they "fixed" throwing (they destroyed it).

    Think about this...
    You need to sink a lot of str to get to 150 (which is the absolutely hardcap) to be able to throw at max range on throwing weapon... yet when you do utilize your 150 str and throw at max range you get something like -63 damage bonus...

    Yet you also need high dex high swordsmanship and high parrying to nullify the drawbacks that archery never had. Archers can shoot at max range with 10 str, they hit as accurate from 0-tile and 10-tile they hit as hard (actually velocity rewards the archer the farther the better). They dont even need a single point in swordsmanship nor do they need to maintain 150 str to shoot at max range nor do they need 150 dex AND 120 swordsmanship to nullfy underthrow hit chance penalty.

    That's what I said, maybe throwing is a better design in UO as an ideal to balance archery but people are so spoiled now and throwing is indeed nothing but archery -2.
     
  19. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    Ah, thanks WarUltima. An expert :).

    I guess it would be good, then, to redo the trials with 150 str and as much dex if that matters. Eh. At least Mysticism, pending nerfs, is still very nice.
     
  20. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Logrus whats the deal with this?
     
  21. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Was this ever looked into? *covers eyes*
     
  22. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
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    If throwing was just made like archery is...and no worrying about standing in the correct range etc...id make my archer a gargoyle bladeweaver in a heartbeat. But throwing is weak as it is now.

    Hardly ever see any bladeweavers around now...just because the skill is terribly designed as it is now. IMO!
     
  23. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I'm looking at hit chance formula and even if a Mongbat had 45 DCI and we had 0 HCI, we should hit it 100% of the time w/ 120 throwing, so something is beyond wrong.
     
  24. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Why is throwing still broken? Why couldnt we get any answer from a DEV... I mean I'd prefer a straight answer such like

    1. YES throwing is meant to be ****ty by design, if you want a good ranged weapon skill use rance change token and switch your gargoyle to a human or an elf, and drop your throwing skill for archery.

    2. It's a bug that we are currently looking into it.

    3. It's a bug but since gargoyles can imbue better so we put in a "balance measure" they get shafted in combat (btw gargoyle samurais also gets shafted because NO GARGOYLE WEAPONS DOES NERVE STRIKE)

    I mean any answer will be better than NO REPLY. (this at least helps me to decide if I really want to play a gargoyle character outside my imbuing mule).

    Also please pardon me I am going to make another thread comparing throwing to archery and some fundamental difference and design flaws between the 2 ranged weapon skills in hope to get a reply.
     
  25. R Traveler

    R Traveler Babbling Loonie
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    110 throwing
    100 tactics
    NPC normal boomerang
    109str/24dex/62stam

    vs jack rabbit = 1st hit kill.

    What am I doing wrong? The only bug is - animation out of sync with damage numbers.
     
  26. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Why would you need nerve strike to be a good samurai?
     
  27. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Why cant I do one of the most core samurai special on a samurai?

    Please explain that.

    How does it make you feel is your gargoyle ninja cant use ninja form or your gargoyle mage couldnt cast explosion? ???
     
  28. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Well really it should be a bushido spell not really a specialty from a specific weapon. Kind of like death strike. And the mana consumption of bushido/ninja spells should be cumulative like special moves BUT that's a different topic all together :D.
     
  29. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
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    Well, been hearing all kinds of poo about throwing lately, but I didnt care about that I was sure it wasnt as bad as people said.

    I was wrong! I made a thrower a few days ago, 120 throwing and all, and kept missing on the first throw(not sure the first throw is even a throw since theres no missing sound) and its so slow. My archer uses a bow with speed 3 and 20% SSI and 190 stam and my thrower used a speed 3 weapon with 20% SSI and 190 stam...the archer shoots twice as fast as the thrower, ugh! Wish it was fixed because in theory throwing is very cool:(
     
  30. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Yeah, trust me I am a number cruncher, and I did MANY in-depth tests with throwing.

    First of all throwing first throw miss shouldnt be a graphical "glitch". At best you need to stand still for at least 1 attack in order to hit, if it's indeed a graphical glitch then they put in a swing delay that CANNOT BE REFRESHED on your first hit to a target (archery ALWAYS ALWAYS INSTANTLY HIT, zero delay on first shot).

    2nd, anyone pay a bit of attention will see how slow throwing weapon really is. This is due to weapon return delay, and your weapon do not refresh its delay timer until it's returned. Some people insist this is also a graphical glitch which it's NOT. The fastest throwing weapon is 2s which is ULTRA FAST (it has same base speed as dagger which is the fastest possible in the entire UO). However it's technically IMPOSSIBLE for a gargoyle to swing any throwing weapon at cap speed (1.25s). Throwing is very slow, and you have it right same stam same ssi same base weapon speed weapons throwers is much much slower than the archer can fire. Graphical glitch shouldnt make you fire slower ever and it shouldnt prevent you from instantly hitting your target on first swing like archer

    3rd, penalty is way too big, you get FKed close range if you dont have sword skill and high dex, you get FKed again if you throw too far and that's ASSUMING you have enough strength to even throw that far.

    If throwing was fine then it makes archery a game-breaking exploit because it's effectiveness is about triple of a "fine skill" like throwing.
     
  31. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
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    The distance thing with throwing should really be deactivated for UO, I mean sure in a game where you can see the horizon and your oponent is standing what looks to be 50 yards away from you...you can manage to adjust your distance to keep that "sweet spot" , but in UO youre looking at 5 to 10 tiles or so and youre just not fast enough to keep staying in that sweet pot with such short distances. This is specially true in pvp...anyone can just run close up to a thrower and mess with their HCI/DMG very easy.

    I soulstoned my throwing skill off permanently (until someone smart tries to fix it ....again)
    I'll stay with archery.
     
  32. Hildebrand

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    I agree the distance thing should be deactivated in UO. If anything, make it not work as far as Archery due to not needing arrows. But to have penalties for someone being next to you? Just silly in UO. Especially when in EC i get that weird "jump" when I cast or try to hit something.