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Throwing History as posted by the Devs.

Discussion in 'UO Warrior' started by Stupid Miner, Aug 16, 2009.

  1. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Draconi: (edited Aug 3)

    Skill: Throwing

    Overview

    The Throwing skill is an iconic combat skill unique to Gargoyles, who, while unable to use Archery, can use devastating throwing weapons to master the art of Bladeweaving.

    Throwing is meant to fill the ranged combat role for Gargoyles that Archery does for Humans and Elves, while maintaining its own distinct combat style.

    * Three new throwing weapons
    o Boomerang
    o Cyclone
    o Soul Glaive
    * Adding two new Special Moves
    o Infused Throw
    o Mystic Arc
    * Each weapon has a base range, with a maximum range affected by Strength
    * Hit Chance and Damage is affected by range and Dexterity
    * One-handed
    o Equipping a shield results in Defense and Hit Chance penalties
    * Swordsmanship mitigates accuracy loss when fighting directly adjacent targets
    * Requires the Gargoyle race
    * Requires the UOSA expansion entitlement


    Detailed Design


    Throwing Weapons

    Boomerang

    * Base Range: 4
    * Max Range: 7
    * Speed: 2s
    * Damage: 8 – 12
    * Primary Special: Mystic Arc
    * Secondary Special: Concussion Blow


    Cyclone

    * Base Range: 6
    * Max Range: 9
    * Speed: 3s
    * Damage: 13 – 17
    * Primary Special: Moving Shot
    * Secondary Special: Infused Throw


    Soul Glaive

    * Base Range: 8
    * Max Range: 11
    * Speed: 4s
    * Damage: 18 – 22
    * Primary Special: Armor Ignore
    * Secondary Special: Mortal Wound


    New Special Moves
    Infused Throw
    The player infuses their throwing projectile with mystical power. The infused projectile will dismount the target if possible; otherwise it will temporarily stun the target. The target will be hit with chaos damage regardless of whether they were dismounted or paralyzed.

    Effect

    * Bonus Damage: 25%
    * Damage Type: Chaos
    * Cost: 25 mana


    Details

    * The target is dismounted if possible, or paralyzed for two (2) seconds if not
    * If the character has Mysticism or Imbuing above 80, the bonus damage will be raised by 1% per point above 80 up to a maximum cap of 65% bonus damage


    Mystic Arc
    The thrower augments the spinning of their projectile with mystic force causing it to strike a second target after first hitting the primary target. Some of the energy used to increase the projectiles spin is transferred to each target causing additional energy damage.

    Effect

    * Bonus Damage: None
    * Bonus Damage Type: Physical
    * Additional Damage: 15 - 27 (up to 21 - 38 with Legendary Mysticism or Imbuing)
    * Additional Damage Type: Chaos
    * Cost: 30 mana


    Details

    * Upon striking the primary target with full force the projectile is deflected to one additional target which is struck for half damage.
    * The primary target receives a 100% damage and the secondary target receives 50% damage strike.
    * Additional chaos damage is dealt to each target, modified by the player’s Mysticism or Imbuing skill
    o The chaos damage is a random roll between 15-27
    o If the character has Mysticism or Imbuing above 80, they will receive additional bonus to the range of their potential chaos damage of 1% per point above 80, up to a maximum 40% increase to the minimum and maximums in the range
    + The range 15 - 27 can be raised up to 21 – 38
    * Player must already have established combat with the secondary target: either by attacking or having been a victim of the target
    o Will not initiate combat with otherwise valid targets who aren’t already in combat with you


    Ranged Combat
    Each weapon has a base and max range available to it, where the base range is modified by the player’s strength to determine the actual range.

    Determining the maximum range of each weapon while in use

    * Range = BaseRange + ((PlayerStrength - MinWeaponStrReq) / ((150 - MinWeaponStrReq) / 3))
    * The absolute maximum range is capped at 11 tiles


    The calculated maximum range a player can throw their weapon is used to determine how accurate their throw actually is when trying to hit a target at a certain distance. This allows the player to have a “sweet-spot” area where their throwing is most effective, while pushing towards their maximum range or throwing while too close to the target results in a less damage or accuracy.

    Below are two tables of all the possible distances a weapon can be thrown at its maximum, with corresponding Hit Chance penalties and damage reductions.

    Hit Chance Penalties
    Max Distance Hit (0 – Max)
    4: 31%, 31%, 0%, 0%, 0%
    5: 40%, 40%, 3%, 0%, 0%, 0%
    6: 47%, 47%, 12%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%
    7: 52%, 52%, 19%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%
    8: 56%, 56%, 26%, 3%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%
    9: 59%, 59%, 31%, 9%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%
    10: 62%, 62%, 36%, 14%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%
    11: 64%, 64%, 40%, 19%, 3%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%

    Damage Reductions
    Max Distance Hit (0 – Max)
    4: 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 31%
    5: 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 3%, 40%
    6: 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 12%, 47%
    7: 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 19%, 52%
    8: 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 3%, 26%, 56%
    9: 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 9%, 31%, 59%
    10: 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 14%, 36%, 62%
    11: 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 3%, 19%, 40%, 64%

    Example

    * (Underthrown) If, while equipped, a weapon has a maximum range of six tiles, and a player throws at a player two tiles away (too close) they have a Hit Chance penalty of 12%, but no damage reduction
    * (Perfect) Maximum range of six tiles, thrown a distance of four tiles. No Hit Chance penalty, no damage reduction
    * (Overthrown) Maximum range of six tiles, thrown a distance of six tiles. No Hit Chance penalty, but 47% damage reduction


    Close Quarters Combat
    Even though they may be meant to be thrown, these weapons all have sharp, mean edges on them – perfect for catching an unsuspecting melee fighter off guard. However, as they were designed for ranged combat, a certain amount of proficiency in Swordsmanship is expected for the player to effectively wield a throwing weapon in close quarters.

    * Distance to target must be less than two (2) tiles
    * Players with Swordsmanship skill can partially negate the Hit Chance penalty incurred by such close proximity
    * The penalty range that Swordsmanship can negate is 0 – 50%, with every two (2) points of skill negating one (1) point of penalty
    o 120.0% Swordsmanship will negate 50% of a potential Hit Chance penalty
    o The other half of a potential Hit Chance penalty is determined by a player’s Dexterity (150 Dexterity and 120.0% Swordsmanship would fully negate the Hit Chance penalty in close quarters combat)


    Shield Penalties
    All the throwing weapons are one-handed in nature which allows the Thrower to equip a shield or other item in their off hand. In order to provide balance to Gargoyles using shields, where archers can’t, the player will suffer a Defense and Hit Chance penalty for using a shield while using a throwing weapon.

    These penalties can be offset by investing skill points into Parrying. The formulas below describe how to calculate the Defense and Hit Chance reductions based on the Parrying skill of the player.

    Defense Chance Reduction

    * 100 – ((ParryingSkill / 100) * 60)


    Hit Chance Reduction

    * 100 – ((ParryingSkill / 80) * 40)


    Supplementary Changes
    Concussion Blow

    The Concussion Blow special move will receive a balance pass with the Throwing skill.

    * Ten (10) points of direct damage to target
    * Temporarily drains 50% of the target’s mana, restoring the lost mana after six (6) seconds
    * Target becomes temporarily resistant to the mana drain effect if drained repeatedly within short periods of time (diminishing returns)


    Resolved Issues

    * Fixed a range bug that allowed throwing weapons to have an unacceptable range of 15 tiles



    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Draconi: (edited Aug 3)


    Wow! That took

    forever to format. *phew*

    What we have above is the latest revision to the Throwing design doc (minus any internal sensitive implementation details).

    Throwing has been out there for the testers to work with for some time now. After looking over the feedback and the amount of bugs coming back, we realized early on that Throwing wasn't achieving the goals we wanted for this expansion. We began investigating what we could do to make it more fun and balanced, without completely disconnecting it from the ranged combat styles our players are so familiar with.

    The first thing we did was review the feedback, and then go back to the original docs. We found a lot of great ideas that had either been cut for time, or, even, just not quite implemented according to the "vision."

    The second thing we did was tap two designers, Wilki and Bruce, to start diving in and get things shaped up a bit more. The result of that was finding a major bug with the way the range calculation was being done (it was giving weapons 15 tiles, which was clearly unacceptable), reducing the base/max weapon ranges, dealing with shields, adding close quarter combat balance, and innovating two new special moves.

    I'd like everyone who's testing Throwing to please read over this document, enough things have changed that it tends to negate some of the previous feedback.

    Some of the math above may, at first, appear confusing. I think the points of the system can be summed up more simply as follows:

    * A throwing weapon has a base range, but you can extend that depending on your own strength
    * The distance you have to throw your weapon to hit a target affects your hit chance and the damage you'll do
    * Overthrowing (trending towards your max available range) tends to lower your damage
    * Underthrowing (trending towards being closer to you) tends to lower your accuracy (imagine a boomerang thudding into a wall 2 feet away, instead of sailing along happily for 20)
    * Since these weapons are so bloody sharp, it makes since that you can use them in melee combat, but you need Swordsmanship to negate the Hit Chance penalties


    Don't be surprised if Wilki and Bruce drop by to interact with you all while you review this Smiley

    Thanks everyone!

    We're looking forward to your feedback, suggestions, and of course, bug reports once this goes live!

    Testing Status
    This feature is already available, but will receive significant updates in the next publish.

    Update #1

    * Changing damage layout for the Mystic Arc special move:
    o Bonus damage: None (previously 25%)
    o Upon striking the primary target with full force the projectile is deflected to one additional target which is struck for half damage.
    o The primary target receives a 100% damage and the secondary target receives 50% damage strike.

    [/list]

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Wilki July 11

    Hey everyone! I can't wait to read your feedback on these changes we've made.

    One clarification for the sections labeled "Hit Chance Penalties" and "Damage Reductions": The first number is for distance 0, or standing on top of your target. It uses the same values as distance 1, so that's why they're the same.

    They way those values are applied to your hit chance/damage is simple multiplication. Whatever the value your normal hit chance/damage from all the other things that can modify it, it then gets multiplied by the values in the tables above. For example, if you had a 50% hit chance, and the number in the chart for the current max range and distance to the target was 40%, it'd be 40% of 50%, which is 0.5 * 0.4 = 0.2, or a 20% hit chance.

    This can be modified further by other factors, but that's how the table works.

    I talked to Draconi, and we're going to put up a gate or some other mechanism to let you see this information in real time as you throw a weapon, so you can test it out. Something along the lines of:
    Max Range: 10 tiles
    Current Distance: 5 tiles
    Hit Chance Mod%: 47
    Damage Mod%: 100

    I used something similar to that when I was coding the hit chance and damage modifiers, so it's just a matter of giving you the ability to see it. Of course, we'll give you a way to turn it off and on at will, so you're not running around the game shouting out your throwing stats every second :)

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    BruceB July 13

    Hello All,

    Just a few quick notes on these throwing changes.


    * HCI, DI, and DCI penalties
    * These are Percentages not Subtractions. a 60% penalty when you have 40% HCI is not 40-60. Its a 60% reduction on your 40%. So you'd have 16% HCI after the 60% reduction.
    * Parrying / Mysticism /Swordsmanship Bonuses & Mitigations
    * These are optional they are not requirements. If you choose to use a shield parry skill will help mitigate the penalties. You don't have to use a shield.
    * To get the bonus damage to Mystic Arc, the thrower would have to have Mysticism or Imbuing or Swordsmanship on their template. Its the players choice whether they actually want to use thse skills as more than passive skills for the bonuses.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    BruceB July 13

    I expect they'd still be applied. Though since they are applied as percentages and not subtractions, a player with 15% hci would see significantly less of a difference than a player with 45% hci.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wilki July 15

    Great feedback so far!

    A couple of clarifications before I run to class:

    1. The hit chance and damage penalties aren't "HCI" or "DI". Rather they are direct modifiers on hit chance and damage, after all other factors are considered. So whatever your hit chance or damage amount would be using the formulas that are currently in the game, you then multiply them by that modifier. e.g. 100 damage with a 72% modifier would become 72 damage (100 * 0.72), or 70% chance to hit with a 50% modifier would become 35% chance to hit (70 * 0.5). Your final hit chance can range from 0-100% only, "negative hit chance" doesn't really mean anything, since either you hit (hit chance is above 0%), or you don't (it is 0%).

    2. The hit chance and damage penalties aren't new to this change. What you were testing before already incorporated them.

    3. Currently, deadly aim is like joat for gargs, applied only to throwing. We may make changes to that, however.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wilki Aug 07

    Here are some answers to questions and comments in this thread, in no particular order:

    1. The hit chance penalty has nothing to do with HCI/DCI. They are directly modifiers to hit chance, which get applied after everything else is calculated.

    2. Heavier weapons can be thrown farther, as long as you're strong enough compared to the weight of the projectile. Since these weapons return to you, at the outer ranges, they've started to slow down in velocity as they approach the return point, which means they have less kinetic energy on impact. Yes, this is the opposite of archery, which is one of the characteristics that makes throwing something other than "archery for gargoyles".

    3. 50% of the hit chance penalty can be negated by having high dexterity. The other 50% of the penalty can be negated if you max your swordsmanship skill, and are in melee combat range. They're added together, so with both maxed, you have no hit chance penalty at all.

    We're still reading this feedback, so keep it coming!

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Wilki Aug 08

    I'll mention the special move suggestions to Bruce.

    So, I spent the day messing around with throwing, and here are some changes I'm considering:

    1. Penalty modifiers for damage and hit chance have a floor of 0.5 (or 50% penalty). They can't go lower than that.


    2. The minimum strength requirements on all 3 weapons have been lowered. This also lowers the threshold where higher stats start to negate the penalty. (It's halfway between the min str requirement - used also as the starting value for dex/hit chance, and whatever I set the max to be at, currently it's 150).
    Boomerang = 25
    Cyclone = 40
    Soul Glaive = 60


    3. Lowered the point where you get the maximum penalty reduction and throwing range to 140 strength/dexterity. (it was 150)


    4. Penalty reduction for having high str/dex now ranges from 0-90%. So at 140 str and dex, you negate 90% of the penalty to damage and hit chance. (Was 50%)


    So, these 4 changes basically moved the "window" where the penalty reduction occurs to lower stat values. It also ramps up much more quickly since the max is now 90%.



    5. What's a sweet spot without a bonus? In the middle distances, you can now get a 2% or 5% bonus to hit chance and/or damage. (basically, the modifiers are 1.02 and 1.05 for certain distances). Here's the base damage modifier values for a thrown range of 11 tiles (starts at 0 tiles, i.e. when you're standing on top of the target):
    1.00,1.00,1.02,1.02,1.05,1.05,1.05,1.02,0.97,0.81,0.60,0.5

    So, at range 2, you get 2% more damage, at ranges 3-6, you get 5% more damage, and range 7 is back to 2% more damage.
    (Remember the penalties at the farther distances can also be negated significantly, these are just base values)


    6. Swordsmanship can now negate up to 75% of the hit chance penalty for melee range (0 or 1 tile distance) all by itself. When combined with the dexterity negation, the two can't exceed 90% negation, however. Except...


    7. If you have 120 swords and your dexterity is 140 or higher, you get a little treat for specializing so heavily in throwing in close-quarters combat. Not only do you have no penalty at all while in melee range, but you get a 5% bonus to hit chance in melee range.


    8. The penalty modifier for equipping a shield is now parry skill / 150. This means at 120 skill, you have a 0.8 modifier, which is a 20% penalty to hit chance.


    I'll be reading your thoughts on these proposed changes, so let me know what you like, what you don't like, and/or what might be underpowered vs. overpowered.

    (These aren't live on the beta server as of yet)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Bruce B Edited Aug 09

    Yep, I'm reading through the feedback. And apologies before hand for the long post this turned out to be. Nobody should worry about being abbrasive, beta is here to get this thing going and make it as fun as possible. Constructive criticisms that tell us what we did wrong and more importantly why its wrong will help us improve the game.

    As we continue to iron out the wrinkles in throwing and since I'm doing the specials, I figured I'd drop by and say hi.

    Below are a break down of how the throwing specials function, (Infused throw was really simple so I only put a few lines there).




    Mysticism/Imbuing Bonuses are not meant to suddenly create a powerful new Hybrid. The fact is that Casters are Mana Based templates and Dexers/Archers are Stamina based. Creating bonuses are to give players some intesting possibilities. For example, a mystic caster could pick up throwing for some really powerful short term damage combos. With low dex throwing wouldnt be that useful for sustained damage output. But one or two throws combined with a spell dump could drop the unsuspecting victim. At the same time a dexer may pick up mysticism for the healing stone option, or the cleansing wind and enchanted weapon for a free spell proc on a weapon.
    The Bottom line is a dedicated mystic won't be a great thrower and a dedicated thrower won't be a great mystic, but those combinations may offer a bit of a twist to make them interesting to play.



    Here's an outline of how the specials work as currently implemented along with
    the numbers.
    One consideration for this was possibly reducing the mana cost though this is on par for specials of equal damage capability.
    The Damage from a boomerang is 8-12
    At 100% DI from Items, 120 Tactics,120 Anatomy,and 150 Strength
    this can be raised to 31-47
    The Cap for DI is 300% total Or 32-48.
    Unlike Momentum Strike, Whirlwind, Lightning arrow (Multi Target Specials) Mystic Arc Does additional damage to the
    Primary target making it useful in 1v1/or PvP situations.
    The damage penalty is on the swing against the second target.
    That bonus damage at base is 15-27.
    Bringing a boomerangs using this special to a maximum damage range of 47-65
    Which is just under 500% damage increase on top of the base damage. Excluding Spell Procs on the weapon.
    The secondary target IF hit by the second swing of the arcing weapon will receive that hit at 50% damage which is 4-6

    at base damage levels
    or 16-24 at Maximum damage output. This target will additionally get hit by chaos damage unreduced for between 15-27

    damage.
    This means that the second target gets hit for 19-33 at base lowest possible damage or 31-51 at maximum possible

    damage.

    If we were to take into account a target with 120 Mysticism the damage would be as follows
    Primary Target:
    Lowest possible : 29-50
    Maximum Possible: 52-85

    Secondary Target:
    Lowest Possible: 25-42
    Maximum possible:37-52

    At the maximum possible damage output with mysticism bonus, the character is capable of doing hits up to 650% of the

    damage output of the weapon to the primary target. And just under 450% to the second target.

    In addition the damage output, the second target only needs to be in range of the thrower for the PHYSICAL swing to

    hit. The energy will still hit giving the thrower the ability to hit the second target beyond boomerang maximum range.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Infused throw is quite similar to a ranged Riding Swipe. Though it has a small trade off. Riding Swipe only performs paralysis when both the attacker and target are mounted. And Infused throw doesnt prevent remounting but paralysis will be performed even if both targets are mounted OR both are dismounted OR the attacker is mounted.
    This even without the range makes it similarly useful in both PvP and PvM. Not to mention the 25%-65% damage bonus applies even should paralysis fail.
    Even less mana cost than Riding Swipe! Smiley




    Now I'm out of breath and must go back to working on making boomerangs have a % chance to hit the thrower in the head on return at lower throwing skills.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wilki Aug 14
    We aren't mad at anyone at all. We're just busy working on SA Cheesy

    I can make changes fairly quickly based on your feedback, so please don't give up on SA or UO because we haven't replied in a few days. Bruce has been creating artis among other good stuff, and I've been making some changes to imbuing. Throwing hasn't been abandoned at all, I promise!
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------



    It seems the latest big change mentioned by Wilki hasn't been implemented yet.
     
  2. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Premium Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    Awesome very nice lots of info in there!