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Tie Control Slots to Taming Skills

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Llewen, Jun 16, 2010.

  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I made this suggestion in another thread, but I think it is a good one and deserves it's own thread. There have been many complaints about hybrid tamers in pvp, and tamers in general. I think I have an idea for a change that would address the issue of hybrid tamers in pvp, and in general make some of the tamer haters happier (not that they'll ever be truly happy... ;) ).

    I would suggest that the number of control slots should be tied to tamer skills. Everyone can control three slots worth of pets. If you have 200 points in taming skills ("real" skill, taming, lore and vet) you can control four slots, and if you have 300 points in taming skills (again, "real" skill, not including skill+ items), you can control the full 5 slots worth of pets.

    Simple, no? :)
     
  2. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Isn't there a beetle that is 4 slots?

    The idea seems interesting. I always wondered why my 360 skilled tamer could control the same number of animals as someone without taming. Seems like if Joe-shmoe can control 5 packies without any animal oriented skills, a tamer with 360 should be able to get them to do the electric slide or something...
     
  3. Aristillus

    Aristillus Guest

    Bad idea. It does more to hurt non pvp characters then it does to nerf pvp hybrids. Lower level creatures in packs like Ostards, hell cats, and kitsune are some of the only real good options for lower level tamers. The suggested idea wouldn't even do much to nerf dread archers.
    If really needed, the best way to nerf tamers in pvp would be to adjust the damages from pets to other players.
     
  4. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    BAD Idea! What about my crafter with his fire beetle and a pack llama????

    No this stinks!! Phew! Nope bad bad..
     
  5. Yalp

    Yalp Guest


    why do we need to do anything to appease tamer haters? their logic is flawed and their hating is irrational. they are wrong. end of story.
     
  6. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    For non-tamers who rely on pack animals for moving items and resources gathering, no. Yeah your idea would still allow using 3 but having 5 really comes in handy for moving.

    But why should PvP influence everything else in this game in terms of "fixes?" Is is so bad in PvP that we need a fix to taming in a way that affects everyone? When I see a tamer on the field they really don't hang around that long, their pet becoming the target of attacks. Unless they are running with the gank squad, in which case the fact that it's a gank is what the real problem is, not the tamer.
     
  7. LMAO... okay guys... let it out. Tell us how you really feel. :lol:

    I sort of like the idea, but then read the posts about ostards in PvP and the crafter with beetle and llama... very good points.
     
  8. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well, I guess my idea was more to reward those that put more points into taming. The problem is that we can't do something like add more control slots, as that would completely wreck the current balance in the game, but removing slots from those who don't have the full tamer skill set would accomplish the same purpose.

    Younger tamers would still have access to all those lower level pets, they just wouldn't be able to, for example, run with a full pack of five frenzied ostards, one of the most devastating damage dealing forces in the game. And as far as nerfing in pvp, I don't think there needs to be any nerfing. I don't see tamers ruling in pvp, if they did, there would be a lot more of them than there are.

    This is just meant to be a way of rewarding those who run with the full tamer skill set, and at the same time making greater dragons especially, a bit more "special" than they are right now.
     
  9. Aristillus

    Aristillus Guest

    I see where you are coming from, but remember, more points in taming skills are their own reward. More lore and taming = better control and more successful taming attempts. Higher vet = more damage healed. And don't forget that the combined total = more stable slots.
    I do think that there needs to be some advantage in game for real skill vs. jeweled skill, but not just for taming, for all skills.
     
  10. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    I think he's secretly in love with the idea... He just doesn't know how to deal with all those awkward feelings... :stretcher:
     
  11. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Good, good. It doesn't impact on anyone else.
     
  12. So lower the point cost of each.

    The idea has merit, however, I would suggest the following changes:

    (real skill refers to skill BEFORE jewelry)

    0-60 skill total- 2 control slots (make all crafting animals 1 slot each)
    61-150 skill total - 3 control slots
    151-200 skill total - 4 control slots
    201-359 skill total - 5 control slots (just like we have now)
    360 skill total - 6 control slots

    Real tamers deserve something that those that are 'faking the funk' don't get. :)
     
  13. Zooithion

    Zooithion Crazed Zealot
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    <-- *thinks something about real skill verses jewels/add-ons too .... oops!*
     
  14. Metalstorm

    Metalstorm Seasoned Veteran
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    I thought increased stable slots was the reward for having more points invested in the taming skills.

    The five control slots are limiting enough as it is for all the resource gatherers (ore. wood, etc..) who rely on pack animals for their trade. Especially miners with their fire beetles.

    Those things probably should never have been put in the game in the first place but they were so those who have them should be able to use them alongside a pack animal. (I use mine at least once a week :))
     
  15. maroite

    maroite Guest

    I see what you did there. Trying to get elf/human tamers the ability to mount and use a GD.

    Veto.

    If you want to move at mounted speed and use a greater dragon, go gargoyle and deal with all the drawbacks. If you don't want to go gargoyle, and deal with all the draw backs, enjoy running.

    There is no reason a racial ability should be undermined in such a way. Giving 6 slots to 360 only benefits human/elf tamers.

    Max slots shouldn't be changed from 5.

    ...

    Yeah, true tamers invest 360 points (half of the allowed) into taming JUST so they can store more animals.

    Not so they can play the game... because passive stuff like animal storage makes my overall game play improve 1000 fold! ...

    It amuses me to see so many "nerf tamers" come to reject suggestions to balance taming because it would affect their game play... "Oh noes! I can't run around on my mule once a week with all its packies/beetles!" ...
     
  16. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Yeah... so you nerf the tamers running crazy builds and totally destroy pure tamers in pvp.

    /Veto
     
  17. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    Nice try kiddo..... No way in hell would I go for this idea PERIOD!

    I and every tamer out there spent the longest time geting to 120/120/120 to get the full 14 slots in stable and to control our pets, 5 slots which wasn't the proposed 7 when the limit came out but we put up with it (yes we yelled our heads off). I for one miss having my ww pair for hunting in Destard, those damn GD's are not a cake walk when they gang up. I am not into pvp with my tamer and have no clue as to over powered tamers are on foot with a slow poke GD who cant get out of its own way. Now if you can sweet talk the Dev to take ethy's off the slot count now that I would vote for!
     
  18. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Hope they never take ethies off the control slot. Never.

    Want to be mounted with 5 slots worth of combat pets, go gargoyle like I stated above. Bad enough the devs are still giving out ethies as vet rewards without an equally useful reward for gargs.

    Also this wouldn't nerf true tamers at all.

    Tamers with all the skills associated would still have 5 control slots at high skill levels. It would change the lower end taming game a bit, but you can still have a dreadmare/rune beetle/dread swampie with 3 control slots and those are nothing to snub your nose at in most PvE situations. It would be a bit harder to tank peerless as a lower level tamer, and farming mats could be difficult.

    With the Advance Char Token, you start with over 200 points in the taming skills, so you could get a cu as well. The only pet you wouldn't have access to would be the GD.
     
  19. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    No the idea stinks....

    I spend a lot of time at IDOCs and I like to have my beetle and 2 packies....

    The heck I'm putting taming on my freaking crafter just to have 5 slots.... that's insane.....

    And as for the whole only takes 2 slots... one slot each for craft animals...... NO....

    How about making someone a Golem...... I'm sorry you can't make that..... nope sorry no one will be able to use one if they aren't a tamer.... that would go over really well.

    Oh and lets not forget Vollems........ can't use those if you aren't a tamer.....

    And dozens of other creatures...

    No your proposal is BAD...... go back to the drawing board and think up some other way to ruin the game for other people...
     
  20. sablestorm

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    My mongbat tamer would mourn the loss of his pack if this idea were implemented. :(
     
  21. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Greater or regular?
     
  22. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    so what's the real issue?

    1) tamers in pvp?
    too bad.. get over it.. one template has found a way to be competitive. tamers don't rule pvp.. anyone who says different is smoking something *siege.. you guys.. sorry don't count* :) You win some fights you lose some fights.. grow up.

    2) gimplate tamers who drop vet for some other skill for PVP?
    well okies.. lets discuss.. is there unfair advantage? again I'd say check any pvp field.. you won't see but a couple of tamers actually fighting.. working spawn.. aye.. not fighting ... but lets discuss... again.. for the 112th time.

    3) tamers auto-logging to save pets?
    ok this topic is being hotly debated elsewhere. .. eliminate ability to auto-log, stop giving pets -0.1 in all skills when they die..compromise.. easy peasy.

    4) Garg Tamers who can fly at mount speed with a GD?
    get over it.. gargs have many drawbacks.. not the least of which is not having equal access to in game items (armor, weps, etc). Different races have different special abilities.. get over it.. be one with the earth.. breathe.

    5) Real skill v. jeweled skill..
    Are you kidding me? Really.. tamers would have a different standard? Can anyone be so blind as to not see how irrational that one is?

    6) Tie control slots to skills?
    Currently you need high skill to TAME, BOND, and CONTROL some high level pets, which of course have a corresponding follower slot. Want hard hitting? Can't ride it. Want to ride it? Won't hit hard. Want it to hit fast? It won't hit hard but you can ride it. Want it to hit hard, fast and be able to ride it? Umm no. Now there's some new math addition that is tied in to pets, skills, control slots, and skills - jewls? Ugh my head hurts thinking of the math.


    so again, what's the issue? Some peeps just hate tamers.. and to them I say get over it... UO is a sandbox.. if you don't like that corner of the playpen, there's always something else to do.

    : Ooh.. I'm fiesty today! Hee. Love ya all .. mean it!:
     
  23. Who do you think you are, the President of UO?? :lol:

    Blech...Gargoyles shouldn't even be in the game. I don't even want to have to look at them, much less be one...




    Disagree 100%!

    The control slot idea was a good one, but Greater Dragons are nothing compared to some of the new monsters.

    This is the problem with an escalating item-based grind...eventually, everything has to get bumped up in order for each "class" to remain competitive.

    Welcome to modern UO rolleyes:
     
  24. Lady Michelle

    Lady Michelle Sprite Full SP
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    Since a mage came by and killed my skill less new character I was running to my fel house to friend it there. We could also do this since mages are over powered for just newly made characters that need to run thru fel.
    A mage would have to have magery, eval, and meditation.
    100 magery to cast 1-4 level spells
    100 magery/100 med to cast 1-6 level spells.
    100 magery/100 med/ 100 eval to cast 1-8 level spells
    120 in each skill so the spells don't fizzle.
     
  25. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Maybe I am! Whats it to you? ...

    Guess no mount + 5 slot combat pets for you! :mf_prop:




    The GD can tank every pet in the game, including dread warhorses, with no problem. Where I don't completely disagree with a raise in the cap of control slots for true tamers, I doubt the whiney PvP types would ever go for it. They can't even hand one greater dragon.

    Also, adding just 1 control slot would significantly undermine the gargoyle racial ability not to mention be completely useless to gargoyle players. If anything, Gargoyles would need 7 and the rest of the races 6, so I could run around with a GD and a bake/nightmare. Otherwise you're just unbalancing the game.
     
  26. sablestorm

    sablestorm Certifiable
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    Both actually. My close friends and I made characters that specialize in each tameable creature. They aren't always active, but it's fun to play nonetheless.
     
  27. olduofan

    olduofan Guest


    SIGNED :thumbsup:
     
  28. Metalstorm

    Metalstorm Seasoned Veteran
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    I'm not sure I'm understanding you.
    It sounds like you're all for this idea because it will affect your game play in a good way but you're miffed at people complaining about the idea because it will affect their game play in a bad way.

    HUH? Talk about a double standard!

    And by the way, what is a nerf tamer?

    Personally I don't think extra stable slots is a passive thing. I use different pets for different things.
    I use a greater dragon about 25% of the time.
    A mare/rune beetle 30% of the time.
    Two fire steeds about 5% of the time (when I'm feeling silly).
    A white wyrm/bake about 10% of the time.
    A Cu about 15% of the time.
    And a pack of 5 frenzies about 15% of the time.

    That's 13 slots right there leaving me one empty slot (three with SA expansion) should I find something nice. So having 120 in all three taming skill has its rewards.
     
  29. I like this - 6 slots would allow combos of "lesser" pets like maybe a white wyrm and rune beetle - or maybe a cu and a mare. It would make these wonderful pets useful again.
    Of course, all the tamer haters will scream we are overpowered and need a nerf. Tamers should be powerful-just like bards. It takes alot of time and skill investment to become a legendary tamer or bard. If you invest the time, you should be powerful. Taming and bardic skills take a long time to raise to that level.
    How about this as a nerf---if you engage in pvp, skill bonuses from jewelry, armor, etc. is nullified. You have to pvp based on actual skill. (Puts on flame retardent underwear...)
     
  30. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    *thinks he started another furball*

    I actually like Morgana's idea about the six slots, and I don't think it would be out of balance. Having to invest 360 real skill points into taming would make it difficult to create a gimp character that would be able to exploit a sixth slot. Not to mention that 120 real skill taming is the most difficult skill training accomplishment in the game.

    Although I really think the lower limit needs to start at 3 slots. Vollems and the beetles should be three slot pets and it would allow their continued use by non tamers.
     
  31. Metalstorm

    Metalstorm Seasoned Veteran
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    Llewen, don't sweat it.

    Yes fur starts flying when ideas are posted.

    Mostly because people see these ideas and believe they'll be implemented or they are afraid that they'll be implemented. Sorta like Wizard's first rule from Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series :)


    I think these threads are great. They give us something to discuss and often spawn many more ideas. It keeps the brain exercising :)
     
  32. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Personally, I would just make player characters come under the same heading, as far as pets are concerned, and constructs.

    A pet will not attack a golem or exodus minion, overseer etc unless it, or the owner it is guarding, is being attacked. Wouldn't it work if the same ruling applied to players?
     
  33. R Traveler

    R Traveler Babbling Loonie
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    Ok, how to summon 2 EVs or Fire elem or Daemon on pure mage template?
     
  34. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    The problem with that, from my perspective, is I happen to love pvp'ing as a tamer, and I think I have just as much right to do so as anyone with any other template. And as has been mentioned in other threads, what happens when tamers are removed from pvp? Because I guarantee you the whining and complaining won't stop there.

    After tamers, it will be archers, or bards, or mystics, or dexxers, until all you have left are whatever the "in crowd" of pvp'rs happens to decide is the "genetically pure" pvp'r. And it won't even stop at that, because once they get to that place, they'll start complaining about anyone who gets creative and starts doing things differently with that approved template.

    This discussion is never about balance, fairness, skill, fun, or anything to do with game playing or competition. It is about peer pressure, conformity, and prejudice. That's what it always boils down to.
     
  35. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well, that's an interesting question. You could make similar rules for magery and summons, ie. everyone can control three slots worth of summons, and you would need 200 points in magery skills to control four and 300 to control five, but it quickly becomes complicated when you start mixing summons and pets.

    Perhaps if you are mixing then you take the highest limit between the two, but the lower can't exceed it's limits either. ie. If you have 100 point in magery and 300 points in taming you can control five slots worth of pets and summons combined, but no more than three of them can be summoned.
     
  36. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    hmm, oki. But, in order to not nerf crafters trying to work with a packie and firebeetle, or tamers with packs of small pets. How about if the limitations came from the power of the pets? ie 5 frenzied have a max hp combined of 625. Not sure how that would work out, but I think you can see where I'm heading?
     
  37. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    Actually, simple ... unless you have a miner with a fire beetle. I believe the beetle takes 3 slots. I would like a packy along and the miner has 0 in taming, vet with 35 in Lore.

    This would be unfair to that type of character. Might I suggest 4 slots at 0/0/0 instead? So, altho not too bad, there really isn't much of an impact when you factor in non-PvP characters.
     
  38. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Well, if the start point is going to be 4 slots, you might as well not bother with it at all. I really don't see the problem with starting at three slots. That's still any of the beetles, or a vollem, etc. And that is three pack horses. Sure it would limit the numbers of pets that non-tamers could control, but I don't see the problem with that. You want to control that many? Make a tamer.

    It would put a damper on some of the hybrid pvp tamers templates out there, and it would make greater dragons a much more exclusive pet, which in my opinion would be a very good thing. Those two changes alone would be worth the price of admission, in my opinion.

    As far as the summons limitations, I'm thinking the applicable skills would be mysticism, imbuing, spellweaving, magery, evaluate int, necromancy, spirit speak, meditation, inscription, alchemy, and maybe focus. So it would be a lot easier to reach the five slot limit for summons, although it would still be challenging for "pure" mystics, if there is such a thing.
     
  39. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    then that changes the way pack instinct works in the code with some animals. So you eliminate one of the benefits of certain animals?

    Again I have to ask.. why why why? The premise of the issue is that tamers are so overpowered as to need some kind of reworking.. and it's just not true.. not the case.. not by any definition...

    Soloing Peerless? Sampire! Peerless for God's sake. (well ok.. I found I can solo Griz with my GD/Tamer/Weave combo... got me there but it takes a good solid hour.. and as we all know.. the loot isn't that great.)

    Dominating PVP? Archers!

    Soloing Champ Spawns? Whammies/Sammies!
     
  40. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    It might be reasonable to change the iron beetle to a 3 slot pet, and the other two 0 taming skill beetles to two slot pets. Would that make you happy?
     
  41. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    You're not catching my meaning ... miner uses beetle as portable forge to smelt ore. Packy needed to carry ingots. Three slots + 1 slot = 4 needed.
     
  42. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Iron beetles from what I've seen are completely useless.
     
  43. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    It's not about tamers being overpowered for me. It's about rewarding those that put more points into the taming skills. You and I know that tamers aren't op. Sampires are op in pvm, and that should be addressed, in my opinion, but that really is a separate issue which has nothing to do with this discussion. This isn't a nerf for "real" tamers, it simply puts limits on those who wish to have the benefits of being a tamer, without "paying the price", so to speak.

    Which was why I suggested that 0 taming beetles be changed to 2 slot pets, which in my opinion is more in keeping with their relative powers and usefulness anyway. I think the iron beetle is a four slot pet, so I would suggest that it be changed to a 3 slot pet.

    It only makes sense to me that if you want to control a pack of five frenzieds, or a train of five pack horses, that you be skilled in working with animals. Or perhaps as part of the change, addition to lowering the control slots for 0 control beetles they could allow you to control 2 pack horses per control slot, so any player could control six, or a beetle and two pack horses, while a skilled tamer could control a full sized train of ten pack horses.
     
  44. Saunders

    Saunders Lore Keeper
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    Alternatively, increase the number of slots that a tamer/lore/vet has, and also increase the number of slot s needed by top end tames.
    This leaves crafters etc unchanged, and also tamers with vet unchanged, but penalises tamers without vet.
     
  45. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    That would essentially be the same thing as what I am proposing.
     
  46. Gidge

    Gidge Sage
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    NO because i like riding an ethy and casting two EV's!!!!!! and if you base it on casting level. what about youngs with summonsed creatures.

    and on my other character i like casting 5 swarms of BEES! (she has JOAT weaving so making it based on skill would be wrong)

    Slots are not just for tamers ya know :(
     
  47. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    Which was why I suggested that summons be tied to magery skills. And it would make things more challenging for young players, but I don't generally see young players wandering around with five of anything in tow.
     
  48. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    As a PvMer foremost, I cant really take seriously people who think pets are overpowered.
    Pets aren't overpowered, but most PvP templates purposefully make no provision to make themselves capable of PvM.
    To counter spellcasters, you need resist, if you go without resist you're at a big disadvantage.
    To counter fighters you need DCI or a weapon skill or Parry, if you dont have at least some of that, you'll be in monochrome pretty quickly when attacking a fighter.
    To counter Noxxers you need some ability to cure.
    To counter ranged fighters on a non-ranged fighter you need some way to make them less mobile.
    To counter tamers, you need to learn how to PvM.

    No one would take this thread seriously if it was complaining about how Noxxers are overpowered if they didn't want to have to cure themselves.
    No one would take anyone seriously if they said fighters were overpowered if their template didnt have any form of defense on it.
    Same goes with tamers. They're not overpowered, they're just something most people are ill-equipped to counter properly.

    One template can't and shouldn't be able to have the perfect counter for every single other template. Sacrifice part of one area to boost another area.
    Want to pulverize tamers? Make a PvP Bard.
    Simpler than that though, carry some slayers along, and learn how to deal with monsters properly.
     
  49. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    This is simply unviable because ever since the 5 pet control cap was introduced, every subsequent summon and tameable has been balanced around the fact that people can only have 5 pets. They'd have to go back and relook through all the summons and pets and re-adjust their power/control slots to make this work.
     
  50. Simple:

    Number of summons should be tied only to mage skills. If you have 360 points in Magery (or similar), Eval, and Med...then you should have 6 summon slots (2 for each 120). Same with taming. If you want to run a template that has 120 taming, 120 lore, 120 Magery, 120 Eval...you would get 4/4. But under this idea, no one could get 6/6. Jewels don't count...remember?

    It's ridiculous that a mage can't ride a horse and summon 2 demons. Summoned demons pretty much suck and get dispelled anyway.