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to bushido or not

Discussion in 'UO Warrior' started by Order, Mar 29, 2009.

  1. Order

    Order Guest

    i was looking at the parry calculator and parry alone with a shield gives 35% chance to block and with bushido and a one handed weapon also gives 35% chance of block but with a 2 hander 40%
    most people use only a 1 handed weapon so why go with bushido instead of a dropping it for something like resist, healing, or ss (for sampire)?
    i hope im not going to get flamed for asking this but i was just curious.

    one more thing wouldnt a wraith using cursed weapon be more effective than just vampire?
     
  2. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Most people stone parry when they use Bushido. Parry In itself is weak and needs revamping. IMHO that gimp loophole needs to be sealed... Lighning strike archers should have never been allowed

    I would agree with enhance potions, the two handed weapon is unnecessary. That's another thing that needs boosting is the use of two-handed weapons. There is no benefits for using them especially tekagi , kama , sai , and war cleavers due to the dismal damage output.

    But honor, critical hits and nerve strike are some of the main reasons people use bushido

    Personally healing is even worse of 120 points. That could also use some attention
     
  3. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Ignore gjohnson5's advice, its about as useful as a poop-flavored lollipop.

    Sampires have parry and bushido (need parry with bushido in order to parry). A sampire can stand toe to toe with high end mobs because of their ability to tank damage. You need bushido/parry for honor / lightning strike for critical hits to leech life back. If you just go parry with no bush you lose the honor damage bonus and you lose lightning strike.

    2 hander would probably be ideal for the added parry bonus (5%), but I managed to fit a good bit of EP in my suit so a 40 point heal pot when I get in a tight spot is nice, I have a pretty nice Diamond Mace.

    There are some weak 2 handed weapons (just like weak pointless 1 handed weapons), but also some extremely strong ones (ornage axe, multiple other axes, rune blade, etc).

    Using wraith form (Wammy) over sampire is another effective PvM template.

    Personally, I prefer the sampire because Dreadhorn is my preferred peerless boss and with a whammy it would be a nightmare getting through the twisted weald due to negative karma from curse weapon constantly.

    I think Wammy is a better option if you aren't as well funded, it's cheaper to build IMO.

    I also like the sampire because you can ride a swampy with barding armor, which absorbs a good chunk of damage and makes you that much more of a tank.
     
  4. Please don't give any more advice on Parry & Bushido. You couldn't be more wrong about these 2 skills if you actively tried. NO meleer stones parry when they have Bushido unless it's for a Travesty fight, and even then most just equip a shield instead.
     
  5. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Well I disagree with both of you
    Lynk plays a gimp samurai ninja (with parry stoned) and still disagreed.
    That just called being a hypocrit...

    I personally have a samurai mule with both 120 bushido and parry. I'm saying from my usage that it's not that useful. You can listen to those 2 and use parry with bushido , but IMHO it's a waste of points (and time)
     
  6. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    We're talking about two completely different templates. My samurai ninja is a PvP character, the sampire is PvM. Try to keep up.

    There are probably 2 builds that have bushido with no parry, well 3. My ninja/samurai, an ABC archer, and Malador's ******** Bushido/Wrestle mage that carries a book and a sheild to cast confidence because all he does is run.
     
  7. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Try learning to read...
    My comments were over the use of parry especially using 120 points on it, not your silly gimp template
     
  8. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Every response that I can think of would only result in a stratics warning/ban and cause this thread to be closed.

    To the OP, listen to Connor, myself, Turdnugget, and Farsight when it comes to things like these. If you scroll through all of the threads explanations are there and we all come to an agreement (and successfully solo peerless by ourselves).

    If you are looking for advice from gjohnson, I recommend asking for help regarding UO gardening, UO House decoration, and how to simultaneously fail at UO & board warrioring.
     
  9. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    It doesn't matter. There are commonly use tempaltes and not so commonly use templates. My point is based on the implementation of parry , not how one uses skill points.

    From my usage it seems at times that inconsistency is built into the game. I guess that would be the realistic way of implementing it. So there will be times even with 120 bushido / parry and a two handed weapon you will get hit 3 consecutive times in melee. That's alot of damage to take for spending 240 points to not take that.... Not to mention when running , parry doesn't seem to work. If you get hit and decide to run , you'll probably get hit as soon as you turn away. So you'd better run with plenty of hp's left to spare. Not to mention if you're giving up magic resistance or focus to have parry , you're giving up being magic poison + paralyze and some ability to regen stamina points. Just something to think about for those considering a template w/120 parry
     
  10. No, what you said was this:

    This statement is 100% false. Most people do not stone Parry when they use Bushido.

    You might feel it's a waste of skill points, but then from your statements it's obvious you don't know very much about the skills and how they work together. A perfect example is the one where you state "Not to mention when running , parry doesn't seem to work". I've personally seen countless times an arrow shot at my 120 Bush/120 Parry dexxer "tink" instead of hitting, which proves yet another statement of yours is 100% false as Parry does indeed work while running.


    Please read up on both of these skills, along with going to TC with someone and doing some solid testing of them, so you can learn more about them and exactly how they work because your current understanding of both skills is plainly flawed.
     
  11. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Well I disagree with you and your beliefs. I know of maybe 2 people who uses parry with Bushido. Most people don't because it's not a wise use of points. My understanding of the skill is based on my experience. If the game changes then my opinion will change.

    On a side note, If you want to play mod on this forum , I would suggest you become a mod first. This attitude police stuff you do is pointless and baseless. Personally, I could give a damn about you or your opinions of my posts.
     
  12. Once again, most people have both Parry & Bushido on their templates. Your statement is 100% false, and I'm fairly positive I've dealt with more people with dexxer templates than you have, especially when you take the multitude of PM's I've received for template advice into account.

    As far as your side note, I don't need to be a mod to say that your information is wrong and that you need to learn more about what you're trying to advise people about before you pass on any more bad advice. I can just type it out and viola, there it is.

    I apologize to the OP for the sidetrack this thread has taken.
     
  13. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    gjohnson5...

    You're sorely mistaken. It could be you're just overwhelmed from the awesomeness of those experienced PvMers sampire kings who have a plethera of knowledge with regards to this topics.

    Order, there are a good number of reasons to have bushido on your sampire.

    One, without it, you're going to take even longer to kill a monster. Bushido allows you to use Lightning Strikes giving you the ability to land critical hits. Some people landing hits with Ornate Axes for 250+ damage. Try doing that without parry and regular Consecrate/EoO slayer hits.

    Two, you gain another method of healing with bushido through the use of confidence... this can save your bacon more often than not as it regens your HPs really fast. Bringing you from near death to almost full.

    Three, evasion. Another great tool to get you out of hot water. If your low on Hps, hit evasion, monster whiffs whiffs whiffs, while you continue to hit/leech and confidence heal.

    Four, when you're in Doom fighting, and there are multiple creatures, or at a champ spawn...Momentum Strike: Works only on multiple targets. A successful hit on an opponent results in another hit attempt on a different, adjacent opponent. You don't have to worry about carrying a good whirlwind weapon if you don't have one or can't afford one.

    As a sampire/whammy you want all the defense you can get. You also get the added ability to use a one handed weapon, leaving the other free in case you need to chug a heal/refresh. Other life savers. If you're not swinging fast, you're not leeching fast enough, that results in a grey screen and less time killing.

    Connor, Lynk, Farsight may not be mods... but I can assure you they've got more knowledge about this template then any of the mods.

    Do you not realize that to best utilize a sampire template, you typically run w/out resist so you can optomize damage output/defense? On certain Peerless, you do swap out one skill for resist.

    PvM + magic resist skill is silly. Paralyze is overcome with a trapped box, if you're not carrying one, you're a fool and are asking for an ass-whoopin from a rat mage. Poison is overcome by vampire form, all but the high end poisons are resisted. So poison is nulled.

    And how do you lose stamina regen points with not having resist? I've never heard of sucha thing... did you pull that out of your behind or what?

    Even though DH can poison you as a sampire, since it's a high level poison... guess what? You can heal through it with vampire form life leech, weapon life leech, SS life leech (if you have it) and not to mention confidence... omgoose!!!

    Resist is near pointless in PvM.

    I guess you don't know the difference between a PvP and a PvM based template do you?
     
  14. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    See there it is again. The thread has side tracked because YOU sidetracked it. Anyway you don't know me or who I've dealt with. I could care less if you troll up and down the boards. I would bet I've been playing alot longer then you. I will say what I say when I choose to say it and don't care what you think about it

    IMHO your information is wrong and just because you say it louder and more times doesn't make you correct. Infact YOU are wrong and are just trolling / posturing in the process.

    If you don't want the thread to get sidetracked , then don't side track it with your so called advice like you know the game better then the next person. For the most part I don't believe you do , however you troll better then most. That doesn't make you right
     
  15. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    You may have played longer than Connor... but that doesn't mean he doesn't know more about sampires than you do. I'll bet anything he does. Quit thinking you're the fountain of knowledge and get over yourself, you yourself should quit trolling and giving bad, missinformed advice.
     
  16. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    The thread wasn't about Sampires...
    Maybe you should reread the original question instead of following me around the boards.

    He asking why use bushido since parry give the same chance to block attack.
    My point was that I didn't find parry all that useful in general from my experience and with guildmates etc.. Obviously others don't agree with that. But that just the customizability of UO. Some people will see things differently. I just wish that would be that instead of others trying to rep themselves by criticizing some one else. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. That doesn't mean I'm going to start an argument everytime that happens
     
  17. Since the OP himself brought them up, yeah it is.


    Since you seem to have forgotten what was in the first post, maybe YOU should reread it. While you're at it, reread whatever you can find on Parry too.
     
  18. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Congratulations gjohnson, you're the first person to unite the regulars of the warrior forum and have each of them destroy you within a 24 hour period.
     
  19. Divster

    Divster Guest

    Wow just wow, I wouldn't even begin to describe myself as a fountain of knowledge, but I do know that parry and bushido together are an amazing combination, to the op listen to lynk, connor and turd here they are right on the ball.

    You asked why to go with bush rather than healing, resist,ss. healing is not really necessary if you have the right weapon damage output (which bush increases!) as you will leech what you need from vamp embrace (I mention this as you indicated in your post as this being a consideration) spirit speak is not necessary for the sampire template and resist can be easily compensated for with pots,apples, boxes etc. In addition bushido gives you amazing options such as honour, confidence, which can be used for additional healing, counter attack (very very ufefull in pvm and a great way of dealing with archers in pvp!) lightning strike, which will max your hci and increase your critical strike chances (= more damage over time) and of course evasion which is a great way of dealing with mass attacks or pop it off if you feel pressured!

    As for 2 handed or not it really depends on the suit/weapon you can find yourself, the parry diff may seem small but it adds up and you will in fact see large damage increases if you choose the type of weapon carefully! again more damage will mean more life leeched back if using vamp embrace!
     
  20. von Beck

    von Beck Guest

    gjohnson5 :loser:
     
  21. Chaosy

    Chaosy Guest

    gjohnson5: While you're entitled to your opinion, everyone else that has posted in this thread is correct. Most people who use bushido have parrying, particularly in PvM. PvM is a different story where some templates can use certain bushido spells to great effect, but for the most part even in PvP warriors use bushido to be able to parry using a one-handed weapon and still chug.


    Edit: Please play nice everyone.
     
  22. LOL... one of the funniest things I've read in a long time... heh.

    Anyway, I've played UO longer and most (but certainly not all) who post in Stratics, and longer I am sure than Conner has. However, what I know about Sampires I learned from Conner's post. He may not always hit a bullseye, but is usually close to the target.

    That said, if in doubt the easiest thing to do is put the skill on a soul stone and swap it out for another, then go whack miasma or a cu sidhe or whatever your favorite critter is to see how it works for you. I personally like having both parry and bushido at 115/120.
     
  23. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    based on this forum's info, I changed from a PvM moron into a Miasma farmer. Now working on bigger and better. I am a sceptic by nature, but one can actually look at the red numbers one is generating and see the damage before your own eyes. Also, now that I am effective at killing Miasma, I realized I never (NEVER) use healing anymore. Reason being that you are constantly bleeding, hence you CAN'T use healing. WIthout the Bush/Parry combo (115 / 120 was working fine for miasma, just swallowed a 120 bush scroll...), it hits you too often to keep up your health. It is not a matter of believe. It is a simple computer game with formulas and calculations. Calculate it out, and see how it works in the game.

    In PvP it is a slightly different ballgame, but that has nothing to do with the fact that Bush and Parry were ment to work together. It is just that if you have a common template (and this is common) people figure you out and find ways to kill you. You may have a little edge if you combine unusual skills, but only for alittle while because, again, it is a matter of simple calculations and formulas, not one of believe.

    One thing that I know for sure is not part of any formula in the game, except to see if you qualify for a vet reward, is the account age or how long one has played the game. If that were true, dudes on polar bears would be scary strong. It may give you bragging right at the bank though...

    Thanks for the excellent posts here guys!
     
  24. You know, the ones who know the most about almost any skills are the players who are training it or just finished off a skill. I GM'd the poisoning skillback in 1999, but couldn't tell you how best to gain today.

    Sometimes the Newbie knows more...
     
  25. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Well I still disagree.

    My 141 months playing this game says parry is weak. And this is from using the skill (parry) for that time period. Bushido/Parry may have been designed to work together. Personally , I wish Bushido (parry with a weapon) would include parry ability, and Parry w/a shield would be it's own skill (parry). Bushido and Parry = 240 points that could be used with magic resistance or focus or some auxiliary skill which would make things more robust.

    But basically adding parry means you'll get hit despite spending points on not getting hit. It's always been that way. This is more so for PvM then PvP. But whatever. Simply do the tonoko champ spawn and solo the hiryu's, oni's and you'll see very quickly why I'm saying parry is weak.

    Whatever , a bunch of people are going to build up parry and then wonder why they are still getting hit. They can refer to my posts and you'll know why. Get your soul stone ready......
    Anyway You're better off using mirror image and using 60 points of ninjitsu + 60 points of chivalry instead of 120 or parry which ONLY parries and still doesn't work as effectively as I mentioned in this thread. Or you could stone parry and use archery with a melee weapon skill. U can lightning strike at range without taking damage and huge stamina loss. if you have poisoning, You can also use serpent arrow special at range AND infectious strike in melee. Also Divine Fury and EOO with your 60 chivalry points can help all your attacks.

    Unfortunately the gimp templates have all the power because the original warrior skills have been neglected (tactics , parry , healing, anatomy) and the only reason people use tactics is for the weapon specials.
     
  26. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    Believe me buddy, I m not a hater. But in all those years playing UO, i have not seen a Ninja with a mirror image kill anything in Doom. Your point is a valid one, and was covered in my note: a surprising template is just that, a surprising template. Issue is that monsters can not be surprised, as they are not human. They respond in predictable ways to calculated attacks. That is why Sampires are so useful at the moment.

    Now 141/12=11 years and some. Wow! Biggest polar bear in town! Again, this means nothing when talking about calculations on damage output and defensive strategies. However, I am honored to be playing along side of you. THat is some true dedication to the game!
     
  27. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest


    You don't play on GL.
    I send my ninja in Doom before my Bushido guy. My ninja collects bones and solo's the bone daemon without running. Then cao go into Doom and kill anything he wants. Simply because the ninja avoids attacks better and is more robust when using animal form. Not to mention the ninja has room for magic resist whereas the Samurai does not
     
  28. This statement is also incorrect. My Sampire (with Parry) also has 100 Resist when he goes to Doom. So does every other Sampire I know of, although Lynk has a lower amount if I remember his template correctly.
     
  29. ZidjiN

    ZidjiN Babbling Loonie
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    Thats right.
    I dont get how a Ninja would have more skill points to use then a samurai. Do you mean that the bushido temp need parry as well? If so, the ninja need stealth/hiding.
     
  30. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Chaosy and Connor are saying that most people do that. I'm obviously disagree-ing on that based on my experience. The ninja attacks from stealth (surprise attack and backstab) have been nerfed into uselessness. So a "workaround" for requiring hiding and stealth was to make death strike and talon strike damage revolve around those 2 skills. Lightning strike, momentum strike or nerve strike damage does not revolve around parry.
    So my "workaround" was to not use death strike and talon strike on my ninja.....

    Anyway I guess it depends on how you work your template. The pure "non-gimp" warrior with Bushido will have tactics , weapon skill , anatomy , healing , bushido , parry. If you run these only to GM you'd have 120 points for something like magic resistance. If you 120 all those , you'd have no points left. You can run sampire or wampie as well and work your template differently.
     
  31. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    What he is saying is that it's more effective to run a template with Ninjitsu and chain casting mirror images (costs mana), than it is to use Parry.

    He is, of course, wrong. There are a million drawbacks and flaws in his logic from all of his "experience". I won't bother listing them off because no one takes his advice anyway so its pointless in arguing with him.

    To quote Jay-Z : A wise man once told me don't argue with a fool, because people from a distance can't tell who is who.
     
  32. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    [​IMG]
     
  33. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    LOL
    Well mark my words
    You will have **** poor PvM templates if you Lynk advise
    Lynk is a gimp who disagrees with what I say and then does uses my advise in his templates
    Also if my memory serves me correctly Connor uses and bushido archer which would also be in line with my advise

    So you can listen to the hypocrite's "advise" you can do what these hypocrites do and stone parry.
     
  34. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    Say what...

    Lmao... Lynk isn't the ONLY one with that template. Lynk's template is just as good if not better than most similar templates do to his luck with +skill items and being able to have healing/anat as well. Lynk can heal with bushido/vampire form/healing/potions/chivalry. How many ways can you heal with your template?

    Don't come on here saying his template, or any other similar Sampire template is gimp when they are PROVEN to wtfpwn just about anything in game.

    Don't preach wont you don't know/understand or care to even comprehend. Obviously knowledge of this sort is over your head.
     
  35. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    LoL @ turdnugget following me around the boards
     
  36. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    Advice - Noun - an opinion or recommendation offered as a guide to action, conduct, etc.: I shall act on your advice.

    Advise - Verb - to give counsel to; offer an opinion or suggestion as worth following: I advise you to be cautious.

    If you listen to myself, Connor, Farsight, Turd Nugget, and Chaosy you will solo dread horn, dark father, miasma, or any other boss in the game.

    If you listen to gjohnson you will find yourself looking at a monochrome screen wondering what happened.

    I took your advice in my template? Ressurection was built far before you came here, and it's a PvP build using nerve strike. And no I don't play a bushido archer.

    I'd rather listen to Fran Drescher laugh for 8 hours straight than to ever take any advice you could ever offer in this game.
     
  37. Maybe you should take a step back here for a minute.

    You do realize that Parry doesn't work with Archery, thus that would be the reason my archer doesn't have it, right? The one melee character that I do have that has Bushido also has Parry, and always has had it.

    My God, please learn WTF you're talking about before you hit enter. You're making yourself look worse with every post you make.
     
  38. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    I wasn't talking about you with the Bushido archer template....

    If here = a paying OSI customer then you have no idea what you're talking about. Infact I bet you're probably like 19-21 and playing the game on mommies credit card. Probably just more hypocrisy as usual.

    If here = the boards, then who cares. That's only relevant in who trolls the boards the most. I would definitely agree that you and Connor lead the pack in that regard.

    Whatever , just weight the other options
     
  39. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    It's relevant because you claim I took your advice when the character was already created before you posted your opinion.

    I'm sorry if I've insulted you before, I wasn't aware that you have a learning disability. I'll try to use constructive criticism going forward.
     
  40. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Go back and reread your statements
    First you say most people have parry and Bushido in their templates
    They you say Parry doesn't work with archery???

    Well which is it?
    Do those "most people" use parry with Bushido as a melee fighter
    Or do those "most people" use Bushido at range where there is no need for parry????

    I clearly said that an alternative to parry was stoning it for archery
     
  41. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Like I said, these guys are hypocrites.
    Lynk uses a Bushido Ninjitsu template with parry stoned and spams mirror image despite the fact that this has many drawbacks....
    http://vboards.stratics.com/showpost.php?p=1195865&postcount=31

    Connor uses a Bushido archer template with Parry stoned
    This is despite him saying several times most people use Bushido and parry together
    http://vboards.stratics.com/showpost.php?p=1187271&postcount=10 ... for example

    You can either do what they say or you can do what they do....
     
  42. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
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    For example, that was a quote of me calling you an idiot - which was wrong of me. Had I known of your learning disability at the time of the post I would have worded things differently.

    The bushido/ninja template is a PvP character, and I spam mirror images when I get dismount ganked until I can smoke bomb - it's not a constant defense. PARRY ON THE OTHER HAND IS A CONSTANT DEFENSE MECHANISM USED IN PVM.

    Do you seriously not get it? You can't be this stupid and not know it. It's almost as if you are purposely spewing this random crap just to get a response - in which case I must say good job.
     
  43. gmcbroom

    gmcbroom Guest

    Hello All. This has indeed been an enlightening subject....ie concerning Parry and Bushido. I do believe the content should be kept acessible. However, I'm humbly asking the Mod to lock this thread. The original question was answered and since then nothing but a flame war has erupted. There is no need for name calling here. Opinions good and bad should be respected. Again thank you all for your time. Moderator do you agree?
     
  44. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    Was it? I think so too. What answer did you get from here? I know the answer. Hope you can sneak that in before a MOd locks this thread.

    It has been HIGHLY entertaining. In fact, the warrior board hasn't seen this many posts since Bushido came out. Please let this go!
     
  45. No, my archer does not have Parry stoned, so you're wrong yet again.

    Why, do you ask?

    BECAUSE HE'S NEVER HAD PARRY

    If you'd been paying attention, I was referring to meleers when I said it's the norm for people to have Parry with Bushido, not archers, as meleers ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN USE PARRY.

    You really need to quit while you're behind.
     
  46. gmcbroom

    gmcbroom Guest

    The answer I got was that I'll get Parry and Bushido. I'll try it for myself because my own template will be extremely tight as my skills are nowhere near 120 but spread out and I dont have the funds for Uber gear. I'll try it each way and which ever I feel most comfortable with, will be the one I use the most. I'm primarily an Archer but I'm giving the sampire and wammy templates a try using swords of course. Its a totally different play style for me. It doesn't really answer your question but I can't answer it until i try both. Mathmatical formules have never been my strong suit. I basically learn what works best for me through experience.
     
  47. The entire discussion has been about meleers. Everyone seems to have gotten that except for you.

    Once again, quit while you're behind.
     
  48. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    Don't flatter yourself. I've been posting here so people get the RIGHT idea about a sampire build and not the wrong one, which you seem so adamant about trying to get across, and proving at the same time you know nothing of this template.

    Do you not realize those are TWO completely different templates than the discussion of a sampire? Lynk's is a gimp PvP chr that can kill in seconds, he'll admit that it's gimp, because it is, and I love it. Connor's is for an ABC archer, not a melee sampire template.

    As has been STATED. MOST meleers that use the sampire template, or bushido, do have parry as well. Archers have no need. Maybe you need to reevaluate your reading comprehension before you come back trying to pick apart other people's replies.

    Take Connor's advice, quit while you're behind. Nobody likes to be beat, and it's even worse when they're so far behind and keep digging themselves further. Be like Michigan State and just give up... it only took them 5 minutes to realize they were screwed when they stepped on the floor with UNC. Why can't you do the same?
     
  49. Hildebrand

    Hildebrand Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    This thread is too good.
    :popcorn:
     
  50. Chaosy

    Chaosy Guest

    The only reason why this thread is still open is because there's still some contributive discussion in it.

    gjohnson: You're arguing with templates that have been proven time and again over the past few years to be ideal for solo PvM.