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To Devs About Dexxers

Discussion in 'UHall' started by SouthernRageLNR, Feb 21, 2009.

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  1. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    I wanna know if they devs have any plans to fix the Chiv Poison Dexxer template?

    This use to be one of the best templates back in the day, until a string of nerfs caused it to become useless almost, The biggest nerf is the fact red chiv dexxers cant raise karma post neutral, then the nerf to lose karma everytime you use infect strike agist another player has made it were you can only fight with this char for about 20 mins before you need to go spend about an hour raising karma back up. Also the fact that with 100 skill in poison someone can chug off my lethal poison with one greater cure potion without it ever failing is kinda unfair to dexxers that play this template. i think like a 50% chance would be a lil better.

    A few changes that would help this template work again would to remove karma lose when using infect strike, and allow red chars to get postive karma again and either put a time on cure potions or lower the chance they cure lethal poison.

    Any feed back or whatever from the devs be great cause this was once a great template for pvp that has been nerfed into the ground
     
  2. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    This template is pretty powerful as it is. I've seen it used to great effect in PvP and PvM.

    The Karma thing seems to me to be an appropriate disadvantage. We already hear complaints about how easily dexers can own mages. While I think these complaints are, at the very least, exaggerated, the last thing we need is to make any dexer template more powerful than it is. The result, eventually, will be a total nerf of all dexer templates.

    I'm pretty sure I remember Poison always lowering Karma. Chivalry is based on Karma. Why? Because it's Chivalry.

    Try a nox-necromancer or something....Doesn't Corpse Skin also increase poison damage these days, in addition to fire damage?

    -Galen's player
     
  3. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    Training poison lowered karma but it didnt lower karma to use the ability infect strike, so you could train the skill then raise ya karma and play a chiv poison dexxer back in the day but you can't do it anymore, and poison dexxers are far from powerful anymore, most people wont even play them anymore because of the karma nerf and the fact that everyone that pvp carrys potions
     
  4. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Hello.........it's called an Anti-Paladin. No reason Karma shouldn't go both ways
     
  5. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    Necro spells are not affected by karma, and they are no classes in this game, u got 700 to 720 points to make anything you want, and one really guild template has been nerfed to much.
     
  6. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    Off the top of my head, Shadow Wisp is next to useless if you have high karma.
     
  7. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Vander...it sounds to me like you are just upset because your template isnt as viable as it used to be...which really shouldnt be considered a bad thing. Especially when you are fighting opponents with over 70 DCI ;)

    FYI...4/6 chiv is still an overpowered joke...if only you chugged then you would never die. :(
     
  8. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    Ok one spell vs every spell of chiv.
     
  9. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    I Havent played this template in years till I made a new one last week, and u know as well as I do if I face someone with potions my 100 poison is useless.
     
  10. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Warpig Inc
    Hello.........it's called an Anti-Paladin. No reason Karma shouldn't go both ways

    Necro spells are not affected by karma, and they are no classes in this game, u got 700 to 720 points to make anything you want, and one really guild template has been nerfed to much.


    Ok call it a poison paladin or a necro paladin. Said nothing about having huge banner scrolling about the papaerdoll, "ANTI-PALADIN BEWARE!". There is an RPG part of the game and not all paladins want to ride about with a white steed and polished armor. Karma is centered 0 and goes to glorious and dread. I see no reason the karma effect to chiv spells should not go both ways. There is nothing adverse to a necro thats glorious or dread. Simple just put a chiv book on the vendor thats black. Not like I get struck down by lightning walking into Luna on my dread lord.
     
  11. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    I can see you dont read well, im not trying to give the template a name, iv trying to get it buffed back up some since its been nerf to the ground. I didnt say remove karma from being apart of chiv matter fact if u could read you would of seen that I said allow reds to get positive karma and remove karma lose from infect strike.
     
  12. Divie

    Divie Guest

    Actually you can get positive karma it just does not show past neutral in your karma title. keep killing for karma and u can achieve the max possible karma benefits from chiv even when red.
     
  13. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Yes, I am pretty sure you can raise karma to max even if you are red.
    Infectious strike lowering kamra is more like a RP stand point. Kinda like necro losing karma casting anything necromancy.

    Necro spells dont scale with karma as much. Wisps effectiveness whoever can be night and day. And theres a rumor that lower karma wither does more (or hits more against people with high kamra).
     
  14. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    As you, I stated karma should work both ways for a chiv charater. The duration and use of chiv spells should be the same if glorious or dread. And thats a simple answer for neg karma paladin.
     
  15. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    I understand the frustration Vander, but DP bleed DP DP isnt going to fly in this game anymore...its time to adapt. I can think of several skills you could replace poisoning with...including weaving...archery...alchemy...ninja...bush. ect.

    Time to adapt man...adapt!
     
  16. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    seems that chivalry without (good) karma just isnt chivalry at all.
     
  17. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Main Entry: anti-
    Function: prefix
    Variants: or ant- or anth-
    Etymology: anti- from Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin, against, from Greek, from anti; ant- from Middle English, from Latin, against, from Greek, from anti; anth- from Latin, against, from Greek, from anti -- more at ANTE-
    1 a : of the same kind but situated opposite, exerting energy in the opposite direction, or pursuing an opposite policy <anticlinal> b : one that is opposite in kind to <anticlimax>
    2 a : opposing or hostile to in opinion, sympathy, or practice <anti-Semite> b : opposing in effect or activity <ant acid>
    3 : serving to prevent, cure, or alleviate <antianxiety>
    4 : combating or defending against <antiaircraft> <antimissile>

    Main Entry: pal·a·din
    Function: noun
    Pronunciation: 'pa-l&-d&n
    Etymology: French, from Italian paladino, from Medieval Latin palatinus courtier, from Late Latin, imperial official -- more at PALATINE
    1 : a trusted military leader (as for a medieval prince)
    2 : a leading champion of a cause


    And if that trusted military leader is on the other side? Is.a..........
    A cause that is dark in nature. An EoO should last just as long butchering Unicorns for a Dread as it does for Glorious vs Liches. There should be more red named creatures becuase even an attack on a nuetral grey creature should be a karma loss for a Goody-To-Shoe. Only if that grey agros first should a follower of light not have a karma loss.
     
  18. Splup

    Splup Guest

    I think you can gain karma, it just doesnt show the title. Not sure thou...

    But why should reds be able to get positive karma? They are murderers, people seem to forget that often. It's not just a color, it means that you are a murderer. If you are red, make another temp, if you want to use that temp, go blue and join factions for fights or something.

    I also see no need to boost dexer temps.

    Kinda same as someone was saying that warriors should also be able to create and dispel fields. If you want do that, make a mage, if you want to play dbl click run char make a dexer.
     
  19. Splup

    Splup Guest

    And thank god for that. I'v always hated when something that even monkey can do is more effective then any playing skill needing chars.
     
  20. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Hmmm...the memo I received stated that necro was in opposition to the chivalry in UO. In essence an anti-paladin would BE an necro.

    DUH! :p
     
  21. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    orc elf drow
    necro paladin anti-paladin
    carrot apple pear

    From the history of fantasy books and the birth of RPG...............D&D and the fact that they reconize Gary Gax. Necro is the opposite of a Cleric. And with the play style of some players that enjoy the support roll. Would be something they could look into. And like a thief there hands will need to be free to caste any their spells. And like inscription improves magery......skills of not of the Cleric nature will reduce their effects. This same game mechanic could be used to balance overpowered templates. Hiding to long or stealth and pet goes to All Stop till fed. And taking animal form of like a rabbit invokes the food reaction All Kill Me. Nothing in the ninja template implies the horsewhisper. Like scribe to mage bonus a ninja tamer could be taxed -30 skill on animal control.

    Copy paste the memo. Just because they are both part of the fight between good and evil does not mean they are kept in the same drawer. Screwdriver apple coring. Would not be the first time the lack of imagination or research was their failing. Only in this game can you throw bolas with your teeth because your hands are full doesn't make it right. Only the most famous weapon for dismounting, the lance, is not used to plow into someone on horseback/swampyback/ossiback/Llamaback LOL on that image.
     
  22. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    For the love of god please all role players stop responding, this is not about role playing this is about a template of skills that got nerfed to much and need to be buffed back up some.

    The amount of karma you lose via infect strike makes it impossible to keep your karma high, you have to take in account that most people chug potions and atleast carry 20 potions if not more so that means i have to use 2 bottles of poison just to run them out of cure before I can kill them, that is a massive amount of karma lost during the fight.

    Simply remove karma lose via infect strike and nerf the chance cure potions cure LP or put a timer on them and you will have a balanced template again.
     
  23. Limlight

    Limlight Guest

    Whats your main problem Vander?

    Cure pots healing poison?
    Poisoning lowering Karma?
    Chiv spells needing High Karma?

    I personally think Cure pots should fail on deadly poison some...just like cure does.
    I hate that Necro spells lower my karma making me a whipping boy in Oaks.
    But thats the cookies.

    :D
     
  24. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    And when has poisoning ever be considered a practice of the good hearted. It is just right dealing neg karma. The correct fix is to make neg karma work the same as positive karma for chiv. No matter what name you plaster on it. As far as the potion issue I agree it needs looking into. But if the karam effect on chiv spells is the big issue, and the potion vs poisoning is balanced, the a neg karma paladin is the answer. An if it is thought over that my be an unbalance then there needs to be a black chiv book. Spells adjusted to meet this play style/roll played template. Dare I say Anti-Paladin. A neg karma paladin for necro agruement is there. Weapon skill/tactics/anat/necro/spirit speak/chiv 600 points plus considering PSs. Still talking about a templates that have no effective range attack that is foiled by a GM runner. More over the nerfs is the fact players all have uber gear now making chiv a PVP skill ranked with tinkering. And if your felling with a chiv skill to take advantage of the PVM of it. Better have a mix template group to deal with a none zerg raid.
     
  25. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    This represents a poor knowledge of pvp. The problem is that only archers are overpowered. The strongest melee dexers are inferior at best and any mages or archers that die to them are really amateurish at mage or archer play.
     
  26. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    I agree that you can be practice chivalry without being good esp using the defanitions that aply to knight hood. esp if youve red any real fanatasy books. from that stand point i think that chiv should scale to skill and not karma. I hate that cure pots insta cure lp at 85% per stratics witch i think is wrong seems more like 95% to me. the cure pots shoudl be more like 50% witch would make a noxer win the war of attrcian (pardon my spelling)

    Reds can have positive karma it just doesnt show in your title.
    The use of poison is not a good act even if it can be used to good means and should lower karma.

    and for the poster that reds are murders and shoudlnt be allowed good karma.
    thats only becouse of are flawed justice and virtue system lord british was a moron y should i go red on my glorious char for wiping the dread scum from teh face of the earth.
     
  27. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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    A red Chiv Dexxer. The entire concept of this template is wrong. A red should never ever be able to use Chivalry. The Arthurian concept is rolling in its grave at the mere thought of this aberration. Shame on the Dev team.
     
  28. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    hmmm so by your notes the inquisitors of the inquisition werent in the churchs and most ppls eyes at the time holy members of the church on a just cause despite the fact that most were sudistic murders?
     
  29. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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    Karma loss. No..poisoning someone is a huge hit to your karma. It is currently correct.

    Nerf down Greater Cures and Greater Heals and limit Enhanced Pots to those with a minimum of 80 Alchemy skill....absolutely or put timer.

    Using Chiv on a red character...don't make me laugh. See above post.
     
  30. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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    The Inquisition had nothing whatsoever to do with Chivalry. They were..as most the Catholic church was for generations (and some argue still is)..murdering bastards and nothing more.
     
  31. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    agreed the inquisition had nothing to do with chivarly but there was plenty of murder and they were considered at the time good ppl.

    as far as no chiv on reds. its stupid are justice system is flawed.

    How is killing a lich lord any diffrant from a roleplay stand point than killed a blue player in lich form except the blue player has a blue tag and can count me as a murder.

    back when i rped i played a red chiv dexer who was an outcast becouse they rebaled against lord britishes virtue system. I only killed low karma ppl and ppl that attacked me how is this evil in any way yet i was red
     
  32. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    OMG people are still complaining about the role play aspect of a red chiv dexxer, jesus christ this is not about role playing so please stop being this into the debate.

    To lim

    My main point is, the nerf to karma to to red chiv dexxer makes it an broken template that use to be really good. Im not asking for it to be the best, I want it to be on par with another templates.
     
  33. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    He is butthurt...

    His whole thread began (right) after his template proved ineffective against a GM Alchemist Scribe with 75 DCI and 50EP. I am willing to bet he never would have made it (the thread) had his 2v1 been effective.
     
  34. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    BS...you are mad because you got owned. There is nothing wrong with the karma system...because you CHOSE to put poisoning on your temp along with chiv...you chose to use to skills that oppose one another. You also CHOSE to be red...play a chiv dever...with opposing poison skill.

    Quit crying...

    Nerf karma? Phhhfft! Karma is tied to chiv to keep it HONEST! DUR!
     
  35. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    What are you talking about? I dont even know who you are but I can tell you dont know much about pvp. Im not saying anything is wrong with karma im saying losing karma to infect strike then having to do it 30 times just to run someone out of potions is unbalanced to the template and for the love of god please leave your roleplaying ideas out of this because I don't care if you play a paladin irl loser.

    ps. iv not died on that template 1 vs 1 yet i just can't kill anyone that uses potions without draining all my karma and thats unbalanced.
     
  36. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    lol @ u silly Vander...

    again, you are mixing positive and negative karma skills...thats your own problem. and complaining about pots? carry more poison then noobert! you get 12 uses for one poison pot vs. one use for a cure. If you carried 10 poison pots you could effectively spam it until running your opponent out. :) DUR!

    and yes...you have died 1v1 on that temp...alot.

    do I pvp? I sure as heck dont play tram. and props to tannaburs...he is one of the better mages in your gulid.
     
  37. Dain

    Dain Guest

    I think the karma system should stay. A red character afterall is a murderer, evil etc and Karma is a reflection of that. A bad person will have bad karma, that's what karma is.

    But I agree that poisoning is rather underpowered.

    I have played and PvPed in UO without break since the beta of the first UO and one of the few things in UO that isn't right anymore is poisoning.

    A character dedicated 80+ skills points to a skill to have a single ability, poison.

    That ability and thus skill points become completely useless when a target carries a 15gp item that will completely neutralize that skill without fail, 100% of the time.

    I mean, you could have a new player; totally naked and unskilled and all they need is to spend 200gp of their 1k starting gold and already they have neutralized 80+ of your skillpoints.
     
  38. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    You keep crying leave the role play aspect outa of the conversation but karma in and of its self is a role play based system. Why bother having karma in the game if your not going to give bad or evil acts in the game.

    I myself no longer role play but when you are talking about game desing around a role play based system do you not have to take that into consideration.

    You sir are a winer even after the "nerf" to poisoning i still did fine on my 4/6 nox dexer outside of gd pots "hate them things" granted i havnt played a 4/6 dexer sence i left atl but that was after your so called nerf. I just had to spend more time farming karma or doing spawns to keep my karma High.


    From max karma you can nox and kill high karma ppl for over an hour before you are negative karma and need to leave to get more. That being said some fights take over an hour and maybe at best the karma penalty should be reduced but not removed
     
  39. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    LOL some nobody hiding behind a forum name I don't know, grats to you I can tell your a real pvper.
     
  40. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    Just because there is a karma system in the game don't mean I need a bunch of carebear role players explaining to me why the god's of uo don't agree with my red chiv dexxer, it takes away from the true problem and that is a awesome template is broken now and poison is underpowered so bad its not even funny.
     
  41. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    Ive actualy deffended chiv on a red if you read my earlier posts even from a role point view. as far as poisioning goes its either way to powerfull or way underpowered. What happends 99% of the time if you find someone without cure pots. :stretcher::owned:

    you get 12 doeses to 1 cure potion so have to carry 1/12th the poison pots of your victive to run them out (i do it on a mage all the time) and sometimes a pot fails to cure so even less than 1/12th and even still i said that it shoudl be harder to kill becouse who wants to spend 30 mins of spaming poison till the person runs outa cure.

    So with the thought above i said maybe even reduce the amount of karma lost for poisoning someone but remove it?

    edited: for erros man i need some coffie
     
  42. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    If they fix the cure chance on greater cure potions and remove the karma lose from infect striking someone, you could affectly play a red chiv dexxer. Gaining poison and applying the poison to your wep will still give karma lose. It would be reverting to how poison worked before the change.
     
  43. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Cures Vs. Poisons is a very serious issue. Both systems(Poisoning and Potions) need to be re-designed from scratch. This also stands for Stamina's uses in combat and implementing timers for practically all actions save for those that would turn UO into a turn-based game(like player movement, if it's not obvious).

    UO also needs to borrow some very basic concepts off other games (and the Devs need to work on balancing them before implementation) because it's getting boring without thinking of cheats or OPed templates anyway!! Talking about new skills or old skills doing new stuff or working in new ways. Maybe even a Class system. Darkfail did have nice ideas how to balance picking a Class Vs. Freeskills.

    Anything else is just asking for nerf after nerf after nerf... and gimplates of the week making a come-back. At least now they remain steady.
     
  44. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

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    Bump for great justice! Fix poison chiv dexxer!
     
  45. olduofan

    olduofan Guest

    im still wondering when a swordsman we get some love in this game ? a straight fighter doesn't have a chance in UO
     
  46. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Heh, haven't heard the words anti-paladins for a long time...in 3e, it's now Paladin of Tyranny (lawful evil) and Paladin of Slaughter (chaotic evil).

    Paladins, like clerics, get their divine powers from their faith/deity.

    In a fantasy world, where there are evil deities, it's logical that the evil deities would grant their clerics and paladins the same powers.

    I have suggested in an old post that it's be nice to have the spell strength depend on the "absolute" karma value. ie negative karama is considered positive when determining spell strength.

    Meaning neutral karma results with the spells being weakest, but the spells get stronger as your karma gets nearer to both the extreme ends.

    But it needs a bit of balancing though, necro and chiv is currently balanced via karma so that playing a necro-pally (or more frequently, a sampire) requires you to constantly regain karma that you lose from using necro spells.

    OP: I'm not sure about being red, but you can gain back to max karma if you remain blue...
     
  47. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    How about you deal with the consequences of using conflicting skills or switch your template?

    1) chiv was tied to karma for balance, considering it does not require ANY additional skill points. (such as with necro needing SS, magery eval, weapon skill tactics, healing anatomy.)
    2) poisoning is a tertiary skill with no other skill needed. it was given a negative karma aspect in the game due to the NATURE of the skill.
    3) The game does not revolve around YOU or YOUR template. Asking for change based on YOUR template, you are effectively asking for the game to be changed for YOUR sake...not for the good of balance within the sandbox.

    Enuff is enuff...let buried threads stay buried.
     
  48. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    Cowboy I understand what you're saying, but the way they currently balance the sandbox is by restricting what you can effectively do by combining skills into skill sets to make one ability useful or giving it a draw back. Yeah that balances things, but what if you wanted to do that? I personally think there should be trade offs between conflicted skills like chivalry and necromancy. Maybe changing the way some spells in chivalry work when you become "corrupted" That way there's a bonus to having either neg karma or positive karma and people can play how they want. Personally I wish there was a bonus for having negative karma, like the demon family doesn't attack you, like the way the Fey family doesn't attack positive karma players. Then they add in more high end Fey's to balance it out. But then again there's a lot of idea's I have about making the game more fun. Though saying them isn't going to do anything about them. Oh well. :]

    Harlequin, in the countless times I've lurked these threads, I've often agreed with your ideas. Including the ones you supplied in this thread, but to balance that out, I think Chivalry spells would need to generate positive karma, or everyone will just be negative karma and avoid Feys.
     
  49. SUPRsalad

    SUPRsalad Guest

    no lets not, man. the chiv poison dexxer is one of the original uo templates man! Where is your nostalgia, sir? Has your UO mustache fallen off? It was the 'assassin' template. sure they used healing, but even on your 'uo lore' arguments, it would make sense for a paladin to learn to poison weapons to pwn some red/orange faces.

    Fix it.
    and fix yr attitude boys, and grow a mustache.
     
  50. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    So you wish to *fix* a game of the virtues by ridding the game of consequences for doing *bad* deeds? He plays a red dexxer with poisoning, which if you think about it completely goes against the idea of a paladin...especially if he is planning on using *good* spells to kill *good* people. UO lore has nothing to do with his template, as UO lore would deem him a murderer incapable of proper use of *good* spells. (hence his spells *good* spells ineffectiveness due to *evil* deeds.) Again, my point is this is an honest template

    My nostalgia? I play oldschool templates, and a *chiv* dexxer is far from *oldschool*.
     
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