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Token of Holy Favor : strange mix of mods ?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by popps, Mar 10, 2010.

  1. popps

    popps Always Present
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    The Token of Holy Favor has the following mix of modifiers

    Hit Point Increase 5
    Hit Chance Increase 10%
    Defense Chance Increase 10%
    Spell Damage Increase 4%
    Faster Cast Recovery 2
    Faster Casting 1
    Cold Resist 5%
    Poison Resist 5%

    Now, it really is not a melee item, because a melee warrior would only get a limited advantage from the SDI, FCR and FC. Sure, a melee fighter may use "some" spells, occasionaly, but defnately not as much a spellcaster would.

    On the other end, it neither is a spellcaster item because it spends up precious modifiers slots for mods like HPI, HCI and DCI which look more vital to a melee fighter than a ranged spellcaster one....

    So, the odd mix up of modifiers make this one item not truly special for neither melee nor ranged fighting.

    Perhaps an imbued bracelet could make a player's gold better spent ??
     
  2. Vaen Swiftar

    Vaen Swiftar Guest

    The item is exceptionally good for necrowarriors, or warriors who rely on chivalry to heal.
     
  3. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Why particularly mention warriors who rely on Chivalry to heal?

    -Galen's player
     
  4. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    Probably because of the FC fcr? It would probably be decent for mages which is what I see
     
  5. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I thought that necromancy skill offered alternatives (and quite nice ones too...) to one's own healing other than having to rely on chivalry's close wounds.....
     
  6. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    Chiv is capped at 4/6. which is insanely fast. So these jewels will help alot. Giving hit/defense chance increase as well as some resistance and stat increases??!?!?!? Makes putting together a suit a lot easier.
     
  7. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Decent for mages but still, when used by spellcasters other modifiers in the item may be quite a waste of mods power.........

    A custom made imbued item for a spellcaster might be more bang for the buck focusing on those modifiers really wanted and needed, I think.
     
  8. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    It has FCR, FC and DCI and SDI, not bad for mages Besides, why do you even care? You got your answer
     
  9. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    I could use this item to make a nice reg using tank mage for starters. It has all kinds of useful mods!

    necro dexxer...
    dexxer...
    tank mage...
    mage...

    any char that casts could make good use of this in the right situation.
     
  10. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Poops, your thread is rather flacid. Not everyone uses reagents or orny...

    let this dog stay dead.
     
  11. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    All quite true; someone else argued something similar too.

    But for my part I'd rather have an item with DI or something.

    or 1/3.

    -Galen's player
     
  12. popps

    popps Always Present
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    But they are low, particuarly SDI that is only down to 4%.

    My point is, that while this one item can surely be used by a mage, or by a warrior, it is not really anything special for either one given the odd mix up of mods and low intensities of some of them.....

    I do not really see this bracelet adding that extra power that really makes the difference for either a spellcaster or a melee fighter.....
     
  13. Zero Day

    Zero Day Guest

    I believe that the intent behind alot of the new artifacts was not to make new uber overpowered and absolutely necessary items.

    The bracelet is more properties than you can imbue, but at lower intensities than you could imbue if you wanted to make a dedicated item.

    So if you wanted something for a mage, you could imbue an item dedicated to fit your needs exactly with max intensities.

    I like it for my hybrids and since i like to PvP the 10/10 hci/dci makes it useful on alot of my casters who aren't relying on orny for their suit setup.

    (And its cheaper than many of the insanely perfect pieces I've seen)
     
  14. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    The cap for DCI/HCI is 15, it has 10 of each

    The cap for FC/FCR is 1/3 for items, it has 1/2

    the cap for SDI is 8, it has 4.

    Not a good arguement, and again, your question was answered
     
  15. Gelf

    Gelf Guest

    Not sure whether its good or bad, but it does have an unmodified weight of 500. which is higher than u can get from a modified weight imbued brace
     
  16. popps

    popps Always Present
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    The thing is, that "perhaps" there are items that address those mods more incisively ?

    For example, DCI one can find as high as 25 on Aegis of Grace

    For example, HCI one can find as high as 30 with Orc Chieftain Helm [Replica] or 15 on a ring of vile

    For example, FC/FCR one can find as high as 2/3 on Ornament of the Magician

    For example, SDI one can find as high as 30 on an Invasion spellbook, 20 on a Crystalline Ring

    Considering that the current price of a Token of Holy Favor on average can be about 12-13 milllions, it is not like this item is a much cheaper alternative...
     
  17. So now you're complaining about individual items?

    You should log in, drop your house with everything in it, then log out. Return to the character selection screen, delete each and every character, then go find another game to play. Obviously you hate everything about UO, so there's no point in your remaining unless you happen to be a masochist.

    Are you a masochist? :stretcher:
     
  18. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    It's not good for exclusive Casters or Fighters

    It's for Caster/Fighter Hybrids.
    1/2 brace + 1/2 ring + 1/2 shield (Chaos Shield) = 3/6 casting (Ninjitsu/Chiv/Weaving go to 4/6)
    note that the 4 SDI + Ring with 12 SDI (max) gets SDI to the PvP cap: 15%
    and Poison and Cold resist are less common on most artifacts, and can never have enough HP.
     
  19. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Yes, a custom imbued item without the 2 resists/hpi and higher intensities on sdi/dci/fcr is much better for a mage isn't it? It can be made better, faster, stronger.

    However, until I find a magical version with the correct base properties to imbue, it is useful for my hybrid peerless hunter (tamer/mage/weaver + mage weapon bow).

    As to why arties seem to have non-optimized stats - the reason is due to balance. As with good game-masters and game designers, the devs have always sought to balance new arties by intentionally making them non-uber. Introducing an uber item into a game has a tendency to kill the entire campaign.

    Consider the soul-seeker - 60ssi, repond slayer, hll, hml, hsl, 100% cold damage. But no DI. I would have traded 3 of the less useful properties for 50% DI. So why did they not do that? Because it will make most other artie/imbued/magic weapons (AND consequently macers/archers/fencers) alot less desirable.

    As a game master/designer, you always need to consider multiple angles and different folks with different play styles. Not doing so, or catering to 1 play style more than others will upset and may even cause an uproar with the other players.

    If you look at an item and think to yourself "damn, it's good, but it will be perfect if it had the uber xxx property instead of that useless yyy property", then that means they have done their job well.



    Think of it this way - in FF7, you have weapons that have the max number of materia slots (8), but no materia growth (the materia don't gain AP and grow more powerful). Then you have weapons that give max materia growth (3x normal), but have only 3 slots. Wouldn't it have been perfect if the 8 slot weapon also gave 3x the materia growth, and on top of that, be the most powerful weapon in the game as well? So why did they not do that?

    In prototype, you don't have a shield power that will protect your entire body like the armour power. Nor do you have an armour power that will not slow your movement unlike the shield. Why can't I have the best of both worlds?

    In battletech, you have really unoptimized mechs that are intentionally designed that way. No XL engine, no endo-steel, non double heat sinks. It's painful to see.

    In Fallout, high damage weapons are almost always balanced by making them hold less ammo. High damage and high ammo weapons are balanced by making them extremely inaccurate or heavy.

    A one-size-fits-all ultimate item makes all other items useless by comparison. Without variety, and without allowing players to choose items based on what suits them best, it kills a huge part of the game's re-playability (or in MMOs, continued playability).

    And it's not easy. Try this - adjust the stats of the token of holy fevor and try to make it balanced. ie, it must not be overpowered to the point of making other bracelets useless, and you must make sure no one complains about it in one way or another. Not mages, not spellweavers, not warriors, not archers, not tamers, not pvm'rs, not pvp'rs, not crafters, not imbuers, not even gardeners. At the same time, it must still be useful and desirable. Post what you come up with.

    Next, start from scratch on an item with no stats, then make it into a balanced artifact.

    Just as an example, let's say the token of holy fevor has the following properties:
    HCI 15
    DCI 25
    FC 2
    FCR 3
    SDI 30

    Would I love to have something like this? Hell yeah!
    Is it balanced? Honestly, nope.
    Would it render most all other artie/magic/imbued bracelets useless for mages? Most assuredly.
    Does it favor mages more than warriors? Yes.
    Would it be cause for unhappiness/jealousy/gripe for other templates? Yes
    Would every mage and their spellweaving moms and their mystic friends be using this item? Yeah, well at least all the rich/older players. All others wearing the orny will be relegated to "LOL, you noob!"
    Would new players (who you have always championed for), be at a great disadvantage playing against players that have such an item? Definitely.

    So, how do we balance it? What do you think is a good balanced holy token of fevor?



    Now, as to the 12 mil price tag, it's not always a good indicator. Remember, items do not come with a manufacturer's label that says "Recommended price - 12 million gold". The devs do not set prices on the items.

    Prices are set by players more or less based on what the sellers and buyers perceive it to be worth to them. It boils down to the maximum amount prospective buyers will be willing to pay for it, and the minimum amount the sellers are willing to sell it for.

    Perceptions can be different for everyone, can change over time and can even be wrong. If one person gets 5 tokens in a month of hunting peerless, while another person got zero in the same month, the person that has 5 will think it's not really that hard to get and it's not worth that much. The person that has zero will think that it's uber rare and will be thinking that it's worth quite a lot.

    I bought 2 AOFs for 5 mil when the new Doom point system was first implemented and drops were plenty. At that time, I only had 1, so I was thinking, "Woot! Great bargain!". The seller for all I know could be thinking "Woot! Managed to finally sell those first 2, now 40 more to go". Drop rates were nerfed shortly after, driving the prices back up to between 10-20 mil.

    If the seller sells a token for 50 mil, and someone actually buys it, that means at least 1 person views it to be worth 50 mil. The seller will continue to price it at 50 mil. If a second one gets sold within the same day at 50 mil, the seller will likely raise his price.

    Should the 50 mil token not sell for weeks, then the seller will likely lower the price because no one seems to think it is worth 50 mil.

    In no circumstance do the devs step in to say "Sorry, that's too expensive, you must sell it at 1 mil".
     
  20. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I am totally lost as to the purpose of this thread. Why do the properties on this one item matter? If you don't want that property mix, don't buy that item.
     
  21. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    Yea you can...you could be wearing 30hpi
     
  22. Bombastic Fail

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    I personally think it would of gotten more love if it were a ring (given the orny), but thats just me. :)
     
  23. popps

    popps Always Present
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    The point is, that I do not understand an item with modifiers which are neither for a Mage nor for a Melee Warrior specifically.

    They are a bit for both BUT, in the end don't really help much either of the 2 since they are "diluted", somewhat...........

    Why not instead have a bracelet specific for a mage, and another bracelet specific for a melee fighter rather than having something which a Mage will only use for half mods, and a melee fighter use for another half mods but still not really enjoying all of the mods to their best advantage...........

    I wonder on what basis and with what logic these mods are thought of when deciding for new items to introduce into the game.......
     
  24. Mistura

    Mistura Lore Keeper
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    Its useful for hybrid templates Popps! Or has that already been said a million times in this thread already? :stretcher:
     
  25. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    That would fit perfect on my mystic/mage/weaver who uses mage weapons!
     
  26. Maybe because since it has so many mods it's useful to more players than it would be if it was specific to one set template. Honestly, why the hell are you complaining about a single item? It really is time for you to delete everything and go find another game to play. It's obvious that you hate everything there is about UO and need to leave it forever. Hell, I'm sure a lot of us would chip in and pay for the next game you decide to play just so you'll leave.
     
  27. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    My thoughts exactly, especially when you consider the amount of time you'd have to spend for getting such an item.
     
  28. Heartseeker

    Heartseeker Guest

    QFT.
     
  29. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Man he does not give up does he? fine I will fully lay it out for you.

    My mage.

    Magery, 85 (120 after items)
    Eval 120
    Inscription 100
    Resist 120
    wrestling 120
    Meditation 120
    Chiv 55

    Now assuming a pvp situation. Dci will help me get hit less, HCI will help me disarm better, pvp sdi is capped at 12 so 4 could be over kill considering my other items, HPI will help me to live longer, fc/fcr is Obvious, can always use more poison resist and I think I might actually be missing 2 or 3 in cold resist so that works out fine.

    Now you have a fully functional explanation for that item, stop asking, it works just fine, I could most likely post 30-50 more ways this item could be utilized.
     
  30. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    No...he is not interested in the answer...only the process by which you come to the answer.
     
  31. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I am not saying that the item is utterly useless because it would be rather odd for an item priced 12+ millions.....

    My point, is that there is better bang for the buck out there.

    That is, I cannot understand the interest for this bracelet at its current pricing when those same millions can bring home to a player, be it a mage or a warrior, some better and more usefull mods.

    I cannot understand why this may sound so weird that people jump at me......
     
  32. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    12 mil may be a bit much for that, but people also pay for the limited amount of that item. I wont argue after this post. My response was to you not understanding how those mix of mods were useful, you were seemingly saying to either make a melee item or a casting item, and I pointed out how it works perfectly on my casting only template. I wont argue how pricing works, because in reality, pricing doesn't work. Think of a number, any number imaginable, then pick an item, put number to item, sell. eventually it will sell, because eventually everyone would have seen your price and priced theirs up that high, maybe lower than yours but high enough for when yours is the last one around people will pay that "little extra".
     
  33. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I am starting to see this in nearly all his threads. Never does he actually accept any answer at all. All he wants is an argument...even if there is no real argument there to begin with, lol.
     
  34. That ring is a paladin's dream. Let's look at it from my Paladin's viewpoint. With FC/FCR capped at 4/6, we don't quite have insta-cast, but it's fast. 4% SDI isn't much, but every hit point healed or point of damage from holy light counts. Most of us are over the caps for HCI/DCI, so those only matter when we get hit by HLA/HLD. Yeah, we like having 15/15. But 2/1 FCR/FC is more useful than that little bump in HCI/DCI.
    Would we like more DI? Sure. However, DI from items is limited to 100. Like HCI/DCI, most of us are already either close to or past the DI cap without a bracelet.
    That bracelet isn't for everybody. It's about as useful to a PvM mage as an ornament of the magician would be to a pure warrior. However, it fits perfectly in certain templates. Paladins, Bush Warriors, Sampires, ninja. Practically any hybrid warrior template that uses a lot of spellcasting will want it. Also, there are a lot of PvP mage templates who would love that ring. The fact that it's a rare drop, and there are a LOT of PvM sampires and quite a few PvP Paladins out there wanting one, means that the price will remain high for a while yet. Especially since the PvPers pretty much have an unlimited cash supply from ruling the power scroll spawns. One 20 magery or EI scroll is all it costs. Raid a champ spawn or two. And the sampires can kill practically any PvM monster in the game 1 on 1. Money isn't a problem for them, either.
     
  35. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    he is the master of (de)baters..
     
  36. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    /sign
     
  37. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Not exactly.......

    But I certainly enjoy discussing arguments and, if I may ask, what would be of DISCUSSION Forums if there were not discussions or they died of a short death ?

    I would imagine that having discussions is a blessing for Forums which exist for discussions to be argued by participants............
     
  38. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I *think* the difference here is, most of us ask questions we need answers to or discuss things we're concerned about. We don't sit there thinking 'What can I create a discussion about?'. You, apparently, do. We really wish you wouldn't.
     
  39. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I always thought the "ignore" feature could help immensely in those situations......

    I do not see the need to jump on anyone when a quick setting of ignore can end the annoyance and let the discussion take place among those who actually want to have it....

    One thing I have a hard time to understand, is why some posters post in threads that annoy them.

    If they are annoyed by a certain discussion, why on earth do they read that thread or post in it ? Why don't they just let it be and leave it to all other posters who actually want to take place in that discussion ??
     
  40. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    But that would be like ignoring the fool about to knock himself out by running into a wall!!!

    Sure, it would probably be best if no one watched...but DAMN is it funny!!!
     
  41. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Well, then no reason to complain I would guess.....

    Noone forces anyone to read any threads or posts I would imagine.
     
  42. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I'm hooked up to a chair that keeps my eyeballs peeled and searches for yours posts. So, please, have mercy, now that you know.
     
  43. Zayin666

    Zayin666 Lore Keeper
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    OMG! Poops admits that imbuing helps reduce the cost of good gear!
    ALL STOP and take a big breath of relief...
    from now on we dont need all the threads about how billionares run the pvp show because they horde the good items!! Finally imbuing is good enough for the mighty Poops :)

    (Sorry poops.. couldnt help it :) )
     
  44. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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  45. Mook Chessy

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    The fact that you don't see the value of this item speaks volumes...

    *think outside the box*
     
  46. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    He has perfected "legal trolling"
    You know the posts are total trollfests, but there's nothing you can do about it.
    Bwahahahaharolleyes:
     
  47. Gowron

    Gowron Guest

    OK, so you hate the short discussions and you hate quick answers and apparently the short death of a thread you started. Discussion of dissenting viewpoints is not bad, but after scrolling through this, all I have seen are the same discussion points going round robbin. Apparently, you thrive on creating threads that result in a long, grueling, painful, death. Congratulations, you've created another useless long arse string. Sleep well tonight.