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Too Complicated: Better Display Needed

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Endrik, Apr 6, 2013.

  1. Endrik

    Endrik Sage
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    I am the first to admit that the freedom to play how you want in UO is what makes it such a great game. I also love running the numbers and making spreadsheets; my wife teases me because I use Excel for EVERYTHING.

    However, these new armor changes are going a bit too far. There are so many intricacies that at this point I am literally going to have to spend more time using a spreadsheet than playing UO. Not cool.

    This also emphasizes my main concern: we, as players, do not have access to enough clearly displayed data to effectively play the game. We have no tool that effectively and ACCURATELY displays things like total LMC, HCI, DCI, SSI, LRC, HPR, SR, MR, etc.

    I understand that Pinco's may have the ability to display some of this information, but please read my explanation before flaming that I need to use the EC: Even with Pinco's info in the EC, you only get some of that info according to what the system can see on your armor pieces. This does not take into effect the intricacies that will be added with refinements, and it does not account for things like how Med + Focus affect MR.

    Lets take MR as an example. It can be affected by MR on items, focus, Med (whether or not you are using med able armor), a blessing from a Sphinx, bard masteries, and different forms. In addition to all this, MR is also subject to "diminishing returns", and we have never been given clear formulas for how that is calculated. We need to be able to see what our actual/effective MR is given all the variables. We would be able to make much better decisions about our skills/armor if we could see that spending the money to add another +15 points of mana-regen would only actually result in .02 Mana Regen every 10 seconds.

    What is needed
    We need a display that gives us an accurate readout of as much cumulative data as possible. Obviously this data is out there because the game runs all these numbers. We just need to be able to see it. I should be able to see my Luck increase as my character with Bushido achieves perfection, and I should see it drop when he misses a hit. I should be able to see what my real mana-regen is if I have 120 Med, 100 Focus, 32 MR on items, a party member who is using the Bard Mastery, and I am in Lich form. I should be able to see what my total LMC and LRC by looking at a display, not by going through each piece of armor/clothing/ring/bracelet/weapon/shield/totem and adding things up by hand, then having to repeat the process over every time I swap something out. I should be able to see what my total casting speed and recover without adding all the +'s and -'s from items and curses, and then having to look up what the caps are on an external site. I should be able to see what my Damage Increase is without having to try to figure out if I am over capped when using 75 DI from items, Enemy of One, and a Super Slayer v.s a Generic Slayer. If a certain stat has reached a "cap", then perhaps it could be highlighted in green so we can see at a glance that we are where we need to be.

    Now I understand that some of this may be situational. For example, maybe my Damage Increase is different for one monster if I am using Enemy of One than it will be for a monster of a different class. That Can also be affected by whether or not I am using a Slayer. So, there are a few options: A) We could have a display that just lists our stats according to our current target/situation (probably the best option). B) Or you could give us a more detailed display with "Primary Target" being what I have honored or used Enemy of One on, and so on. Again, I think that option A would be better.

    Purpose
    Not only would access to this kind of information make it easier and more enjoyable to play the game and explore things like crafting, imbuing, and refinements, but it would also help us as a player base troubleshoot for the devs. Right now we have to try to guess what is going on, and its easy to forget a step/cause/effect. We also simply don't have access to all the information and calculations. If we could get a display that lists exactly what the game is calculating for this information, we would be able to make much better in-game decisions without needing to spend hours running spreadsheets and comparing notes between multiple websites trying to figure out what is accurate and what is outdated. We could also immediately see if something is working without spending hours/days/weeks of play on the test center.

    In addition, this would help to even the playing field. Access to a clear display of accurate cumulative data would allow new players to better understand how their gear and skills interact. It would also make it easier for those who are not Grand Masters in Excel to compete with those who are.

    If the display is pulling the data from the same place a monster is when we are fighting, then there is no room for confusion, miscalculation, or misunderstanding.

    Now, the truth about UO and modern systems is that we have plenty of realestate on our screens. A display like this could be comprehensive without taking up any of our game-play window. If you wanted to condense things you could give us drop-down or check box menus to determine what is displayed. Imagine a window with two tabs: a control tab and a display tab. You could click on the "control" tab to either "select all" or specify exactly what data you want to have displayed, then move over to the Display tab to actually view the information. This could be display that you drag off to the side of your game display and keep up as you play, or you could close it and only use it when testing out new armor, skills, etc.

    I know this was a long post, but PLEASE devs; please give us more detailed and accurate information so that we can actually utilize and enjoy the systems like refinements that you are adding to the game.
     
    #1 Endrik, Apr 6, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  2. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    We are suppose to be getting the same display on prodo shards that is on TC.
     
  3. Gidge

    Gidge Sage
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    This This!!!! Thank you Endrik! Regarding the mana regen! That was in my head but could not get it out in the refinements yes or no. For me it's a feeling and I could not describe it. Though that is kinda what UO is about, but if someone wants to be a numerologist then they should be able to "see" the numbers!
     
  4. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Endrik, there's a new status bar available for the Classic Client. You can use it now if you start UO by using the client_tc.exe file. Be sure to use the option to run it as administrator, though, or it will not display correctly. I don't use UO Assist, but I believe that at the present time you would not be able to use UO Assist and this new client because UO Assist hasn't been updated to hand off to the new client once you get UOA started. However, if you're comfortable not using UOA, you might want to try playing with the new client and status bar just to get a feel for it and to give your feedback.

    Anyway, here are some screen shots I made on TC in late February showing the new status bar. This one identifies the new information shown on the status bar.

    New Status Bar.jpg

    Here's what it looked like while wearing one piece of refined armor that increased the cap on some resists while decreasing the DCI cap, and then taking off that particular piece of armor:

    STATUS BAR WEARING REFINED ARMOR.jpg STATUS BAR NOT WEARING REFINED ARMOR.jpg
     
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  5. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    It doesn't matter how complicated UO gets, there just needs to be some in-game information gumps, to assist with piecing things together and explaining exactly what things do.

    These already exist in UO, except that when things are changed or updated, the description isn't updated with it and many things don't have a description.

    Item properties, Weapon Special Moves, Spells, special abilities some pets/summons may have etc.

    detail is key.

    The new status gump is definitely a lot more informative, and will assist greatly in suit building. just a few more stats should be added to it (Regens & RPD, mostly).
     
  6. Endrik

    Endrik Sage
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    Thanks Tina! This is definitely a step in the right direction. We still need some stuff like MR, HPR, SR, etc... and it would be important for those to display the actual amount or regeneration, not just the simple addition of properties from items. But again, this is a step in the right direction!
     
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  7. Endrik

    Endrik Sage
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    I tried the new layout Tina... I am afraid it did not work. The display was there, but it did not reflect any accurate information. For example: I equipped the Boomstick, and my FC did not increase. I put on a shield with DCI, and my DCI did not increase etc.
     
  8. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Keeper
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    This is too much. If I quit playing again its cause all these little unnecessary additions which are useless. I DONT need a gump to tell my FC/FCR, HCI/DCI, or most of this other new stuff. LRC? Really?? Just add it up when you make your suit. Ive never had a problem with this NOR has anyone Ive ever talked to concerning this. The new UO - Gaming for Morons that cant add.... (yes Im a moron, Id have to be cause I'm still playing this game, but atleast I can do 3rd grade math and dont need Devs to add & subtract for me).

    You want to make the game better? Try fixing the health bars that folks have been bitchin' abt for years. Try fixing the dozens of known bugs folks have posted on. This new 'awesome' gump seems like lipstick on a pig to me.

    DEVS Your Making This Game Needlessly Complex Which Drives Most Folks AWAY.
    Get a damn clue guys, seriously.... The reason MOST of us play the old client is because of the
    GOD AWFUL unnecessary crap you put in the EC and being able to use UOA cause your user
    interface sucks ass and has for +10years. If your interface didnt suck so bad UOA would have never
    been made and if it STILL didnt suck ass Pinco would be busy playing the game instead of busting
    his ass to make the game even playable.

    The level of your stupidity amazes me sometimes DEVS, seriously....
    (Thus ends the rant)
     
    #8 Acid Rain, Apr 10, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  9. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Did you get the big patch today and then log on with the regular CC client, i.e., not with the client_tc.exe file we had to use before today to see the new status bar? I've only checked a couple of shards so far, but I'm seeing information in the new, larger status bar that seems to pretty accurately reflect what my characters are wearing. If you did patch, are you also using UO Assist?
     
  10. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Keeper
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    Well I just got a look at it for myself and this Character Status bar is AwESomE !

    DEVS JUST MAKE IT BIGGER ! Would b perfect if it was just 50% larger !!
    ..... and mayb we can add stuff like:
    Pieces of Armor 6/6
    Pieces of Jewelry 2/3 (of course would have to modify it for gargs)
    Items in Hands 1/2
    Items in Quiver 100/500 (could add in bolts or arrows pic/graphic)
    IQ of Devs 42/130
    How $hi#y is this Gump 10/10

    Great Job Devs ! Im assuming player status bars have been fixed b4 u put this
    crap in right ?? *DOH*
     
  11. startle

    startle Siege... Where the fun begins.
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    WOW ! Finally a very useful addition in the new Status Bar... Excellent work... Bravo! Almost all my chars are constantly swapping out armor/jewelry/shields/talismans/weapons/ et.al. depending on the situation - so to have this new information in the status bar is very, very welcome! A big cheer here! :danceb:
     
    #11 startle, Apr 11, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
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  12. KLOMP

    KLOMP Sage

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    People have been screaming this for months now. The devs have pretty unambiguously told us that they don't give a @#$%.
     
    #12 KLOMP, Apr 11, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  13. Endrik

    Endrik Sage
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    Acid Rain, you obviously did not read my post because you have no idea what you are talking about. Go troll somewhere else.

    Tina, I did try this again after the patch and it works better, but it is still not up to par with what we actually need. For example: if I equip a Boomstick, my FC does increase by one, but when I cast Protection, it does not decrease my displayed FC. Of course I still feel that HPR, MR, and SR all need to be added in a way where your skill, items, spells, and forms are reflected in that calculation as well.

    That being said, I still think that this is a HUGE step in the right direction. I am happy to report that at least the HCI and DCI from bard masteries is reflecting accurately on the new gump. Very cool.
     
  14. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Keeper
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    I absolutely did read your post...well.... some of it. You post a novel and expect everyone read every word. Unrealistic? It may be the best post ever but at that length I don't have the time nor inclination to read it all, sorry.

    I got the basic point of your mile long post and respectfully(and even disrespectfully:D towards the lump) disagree & this forum allows me the right to do so. I very well understood how much you loved the new "Lump" (I'm calling it a Lump as an amalgamation of LARGE and Gump) and just wanted MORE... More information, more buttons, switches, and toggles.

    If your going to use this forum to BEG DEVS to listen, Im going to let DEVS know that a LARGE number of players view this as ridiculous overkill. I stand behind my posts and strongly suggest that this kind of useless information overkill is what scares many new players away from this game.

    Making the game (specifically -windows and information bars) more and more complex only satisfies a VERY small number of players and is overwhelming to the vast majority of new players.

    Does seeing exactly how everything adds up numerically make you a better player? Doubtful.... Ive never once heard anyone complain b/c they cant figure out FC/FCR. Why do I need HCI on my mages gump? Its stupid. Just enjoy playing the game and let the number crunchers whos salaries we pay w/ monthly subs figure that stuff out. You don't have to control everything, relax.
     
    #14 Acid Rain, Apr 11, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2013
  15. Maelwyn

    Maelwyn Adventurer
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    I agree with both Endrik and Acid Rain. As a returning player, this game has become incredibly complex. I'm in complete amazement at what's been done. It's amazing on one hand and has me completely baffled. All of my old dexxer and mage templates completely suck now. I am trying to figure out what sort of templates and items I need just to be able to battle some of these higher end creatures. Honestly, I don't know where to start.
     
  16. Ludes

    Ludes Babbling Loonie
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    You don't really need to get that deep into it... lotta people do cause that's what they enjoy.
    I don't worry about any of that stuff. I just go explore and kill things. If I run out of mana I run away for a minute.. If I get close to dying I run away for a minute.. Yeah I do a lot of running but thats more fun for me than spending time with a spreadsheet.
     
  17. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Yes and no.

    If you want to be competitive you do have to get deep into it.

    For the past 15 years you could play the game and be competitive at the same time with a mix of knowledge, experience & hard work. All ingame.

    No more.

    These new changes now force anyone that wants to be competitive to work just as hard offline as online. Thats ridiculous imo.

    Who asked for anything remotely similar to what we received?
     
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  18. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    As I've said in another thread (and on and off said for years) whatever the Devs decide should be visible or not, let US decide what shows on the screen WE are looking at. Even in the supposedly 'difficult to work with' Classic Client, it's clear that it's not so much 'difficulty' as 'never even thinking about it' that leaves us with the messy things we have now. The extra info people want as part of a status review can surely be put in a smaller 'mini status' block you can choose to have shown or not, the spreadsheet of data when you just mouse over any item could be an option rather than 'you're going to have this mini wall of text whether it's useful to you or not'.

    Just for once, rather than have 'neat programming ideas' and driving them through, think about letting the players choose something - it's great to have the data available if you want it, and pathetically poor design to just ram pages of stuff onto people's game desktops regardless of THEIR wants and needs....
     
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  19. Endrik

    Endrik Sage
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    Thanks Aurelius,

    That is exactly what I am asking for... access to the data. I do not want it forced on everybody, so a separate window or display that could be used at will would be perfect.
     
  20. Endrik

    Endrik Sage
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    It looks like the new status bar info does not accurately reflect a decrease in DCI for a character with 120 Bushido who is using a 1-handed vs 2-handed weapon, or when a shield is equipped. Is this an oversight in the way that date is presented in the status bar or was this changed with the new publish?
     
  21. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Its parry not DCI. So it wouldn't show up. Just one of those things that if you weren't around when SE launched or someone doesn't directly tell you, there is no way to know outside of directly experiencing it. Even then, people have no specific way of knowing WHAT is causing them to get hit so much more often.

    Especially when it comes to 1 handed vs 2, since the diff is so small.

    Bushido has a bunch of those. Perfection (honor "click to open webpage for info" link is broken), no shields, more parry with 2 handed, whirlwind bonus... Unless I am mistaken all of these important parts of bushido are absolutely undocumented in game. Pretty bad.
     
    Endrik likes this.