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Town Banner Discussion

Discussion in 'UO Baja' started by EMSeppo, May 9, 2010.

  1. EMSeppo

    EMSeppo Journeyman
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    Hail,

    We have decided to utilize the Town Banner system on Baja. This thread will be used for discussion on this matter.

    The two main discussion points are:

    1) Qualifications for approval. The metrics that will likely be considered are: size, activity, and place within the community.

    2) Role playing/Community Feeling. Let us be very clear on this part - the primary purpose of this system is to promote role playing and feeling of a community. The system should not only allow this but heavily encourage it.
     
  2. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    I look forward to seeing how this plays out.

    I hope we can honor our shards historic cities and kingdoms without the problems we see on other shards.
     
  3. KitaTalith

    KitaTalith Guest

    We in Golden will also be interested in the process.

    *subscribes to this thread*

    Thanks for the heads up, WarderDragon!

    Kita
     
  4. SuperKen

    SuperKen Slightly Crazed
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    Very interested.

    Question: what if the feeling of the community side outweighs the roleplaying side? Will that still be in line with what would be the desired goal here?
     
  5. Grey Eagle of Baja

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    Yea Sounds good to me . I play a misture of RP and "normal game" type.
    although I sometimes tend to be abit ObNoxxious !! :p
     
  6. WildStar

    WildStar UO Baja News Reporter
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    I also play on another shard that has the Town Banner system and have seen it's problems first hand. The main issue is that townships were created solely for the purpose of getting a town banner built and I personally believe that that is not the reason to start a town.

    I am not sure that Baja is a good candidate for the system as it is. The other shard had eight (8) existing player-run towns that ranged from semi-active to active and several regular auction houses that existed prior to the system going in. There were 14 town banners built. One of the new ones was already there but very low-key, however several where built overnight or a few days because of the town banner system.

    On Baja we have Cartel Island, The Kingdom of Dawn, Ravenshire and Scythe. The Village of Golden has recently been resurrected. There are also the historic cities such as Avalon and Heaven's Forge which still have buildings or memorials standing but do not function as player-run cities/groups any more.

    Another concern is that people will view the teleport function of the town banner as a death trap and that will tarnish the reputation of the place that has it just because they are in Felucca, but are not personally involved in the potential attacks on people using it.

    Moving on to the two main discussion points:

    1) Qualifications for approval. The metrics that will likely be considered are: size, activity, and place within the community.

    Size - A group as small as one building should qualify if it is an auction house that has held weekly auctions for five (5) years and has an established place in the community, for example. My one concern related to Dawn is that if you come up with a system that states a Kingdom is 40+ buildings and The Kingdom of Dawn actually only has 35 buildings, for example. We have always been called a Kingdom and role-play it as such. I am sure that I am worried about nothing, but feel the need to bring this point up.

    Activity - Are we talking about activity actually in the player-run town or community or involvement in activities? The reason I bring this up is because it can be hard to get people to come to Felucca. When there is spawn to kill, such as during the Casca storyline, people would come to Dawn but for other events, it can be difficult.

    Place within the community - I think this one is clear, however, I would like to point out that there are different communities in UO and that people should keep an open mind. I am referring to Cartel Island. They are a community that just happens to kill visitors on sight unless you are invited to their island.

    2) Role playing/Community Feeling. Let us be very clear on this part - the primary purpose of this system is to promote role playing and feeling of a community. The system should not only allow this but heavily encourage it.

    The town banner should be something that is earned and requires participation to be able to keep.

    WildStar
    Grand Duchess
    Kingdom of Dawn
     
  7. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    As I mentioned in a previous discussion on this very issue; I don't think it is (or should be) up to the event moderators whether or not the Kingdom of Dawn can call itself a Kingdom.

    Such a system wouldn't make sense. A town of fifty structures that professes loyalty to the Britannian Crown (Queen Dawn) wouldn't call themselves a Kingdom (Vassal). Nor would a town ruled by an Elected Council (Republic). These titles designated the form of government used. The Kingdom of Dawn is a Kingdom because it is a Totalitarian Government ruled by a Hereditary Chieftain (Prince Riain Cross). If that monarch were overthrown and replaced by a Senate; it would no longer be a Kingdom no matter how many buildings it possesses.

    But back on topic; I remain divided on this issue. I have never liked the system being used on other shards (I like how Seppo has kept our shard independent and unique); but I would like to see towns aided and assisted by the event moderators and recognized for their status as player towns. You can't build docks or roads because we currently don't have those tools. I wouldn't mind seeing things like docks and cannons built around Cartel Isle, Vineyards cropping up around Golden, so on and so fourth. In essence, help build on each towns own unique flavor.
     
  8. Lord Gareth

    Lord Gareth UO Content Editor | UO Chesapeake & Rares News
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    *Peaks in*

    I hope you guys don't get stuck with the same setup as us. This many houses equal this... etc etc. I still cant figure out why a 18x18, Keep or Castle is counted as 1 building just like a 7x7 house. You can fit six different establishments on a 18x18.

    You know what you will find your townships doing? Asking people over icq to place a 7x7 so they can get city status for whatever reason. I know this because I am doing it right now so we can get larger monsters invasions, since the size of the invasion depends on your township status of Outpost, Village, Town, City etc. We may not have 21 houses but we sure as heck have allot of people and guilds.... Just hard to find people willing to take smaller houses. What we do as a community and the establishments that operate in our town should count for something.
     
  9. Brytt

    Brytt Seasoned Veteran
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    I guess size, to me, is way down on my criteria list. For me, I'm more interested in community impact. Say a town had massive historical significance but is down to one building, yet that town was always there, in the same place, and had major impact on the community. I don't care that it's just one house. They're a major town.

    I'd also support an EM who chooses to honor a smaller "town" because the effect it has on the shard is spellbinding, to encourage others to follow step and in the efforts of getting that town to grow. Like, I gotta say, those little rugrat girl scouts--I'm not sure if they just have the one building, but I want a whole frikkin' Girl Scout camp, with archery ranges, medical stations and cookie booths.

    Call me old fashioned, but I think simple is best. Too many prequalification "rules" could tempt someone to exploit them or result in missing the chance to honor a civilization that really has/had an impact on the "culture" of Baja. I think the Baja EMs are responsible and savvy enough to determine the "towns" of Baja. If the EMs don't already know about a township who could be a good candidate, I know plenty of shard reporters always willing to help increase a township's visibility. :)

    If I -had- to put rules to it, it'd be a litmus test of these things:
    -Cultural impact and name recognition "Oooh, I love(d) (hated) those guys. (hero or villain)"
    -A (somewhat) constant physical presence or town-like feeling somewhere or strong likelihood of sticking around a while.
    -When you come across it, whether people are online or not, you get the feeling that there's something different about this place.


    My real rule is:
    Go with your gut. Reward the behavior you're trying to promote and just try to get a sense that they'll actually be around for a while or have been around long enough to have earned it. Don't like that system? Feel like you want all the rules spelled out in advance? Tough tagalongs. Make a city and make it matter, then let the EMs put the magic where the magic happens.

    :thumbup1:
     
  10. EMSeppo

    EMSeppo Journeyman
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    In regards to the type of "banners", they will largely remain same as what has been seen on other shards. At this point, you are unable to have decoration that is physically attached to your house.

    In regards to rules, they are necessary to have transparency in the system to avoid misgivings. I understand that this takes away from the magic of it, but it is something that cannot be avoided. The rules will largely reflect how it has been done on other shards. However, we can make them customized for Baja.

    Baja specific independent kingdoms, as declared by Queen Dawn during her inauguration (refer to last year's arc for more information), will probably be grandfathered into this system. However, they might have to pick between their existing "war banner" and a new one. It is something that I would have to look into.

    Also, there is nothing wrong with people getting encouraged to band together to create new towns. As long as it is done in good faith and with right intentions. We have to find the right formula which rewards both new and historic. However, I am not in favor of granting banners for places that are long dead, nor a town that is few weeks old.

    SuperKen: That would definitely be in line with the desired goal. RP is great but it is not a necessary component. The greatest purpose is to promote player communities.
     
  11. BajaElladan

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    Hail Folks,

    I confess to be new to this discussion and know little, as of yet, of this "Town Banner System" of which you all speak. Is there a place I should go to learn more?

    How close in proximity must these "houses/structures" be to qualify as a "Town?"

    And what of the obscure, though kind-hearted Player with many houses? Must they all be in one area? Or might they all serve one well stated purpose?

    Or is at least one goal of this, that we as Players must become recruiters of more Players to rally round our Banner, or claim thereto? If so, that's fine so long as it's directly stated and well known?

    I shall eagerly await responses and follow this Topic.

    Elladan of Baja for his Kin and many others
     
  12. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    I am with Brytt. Honor these communities and establishments not on how many accounts and buildings they can muster but on their impact, culture, and legend.

    That is how Avalon was for a time. It is now back up to twelve buildings (fourteen if you count the Hall of Shadows and Wrathguards); but has no central government or guild (Citizens of Avalon, Gypsies of Sosaria, Keepers of the Tower, and Gulgeth all maintain a presence in the area).

    It is my hope that new and returning roleplayers will choose to move into places like Dawn, Avalon, Golden, and Hearthfire and help build upon these cities.
     
  13. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    Seppo, I am curious what prompted this change of plans.

    How will this impact the direction of current storylines and such? And what are the implications IC?

    What about Kingdoms (past, present, and future) who do not acknowledge the authority of Queen Dawn any more than they did Casca? Will they have alternative methods of earning a banner outside the Britannian Crown? (If my understanding is correct; you have to petition the Queen on other shards.)

    Please do. Baja is one of the most unique shards in Ultima Online; and you've helped contribute to that. Lets not be like everyone else.
     
  14. Harlan

    Harlan Guest

    The town banner thing is great for the RolePlayers and would hel in giving Baja that history factor. In the terms of Size = Type that is bull. RoU (Rebels of Unity) is working on a Player run town as of right now. We don't want to be called a Kingdom nor an Outpost. The area of our town wouldn't be able to house a kingdome anyway :). Our plan is to fil the isle with al the house we can but it is an island. I hope that it will be a true player run isle (IE player run buildings where one of our guild members or a char with citizenship will man them). We will have a town hall where meeting about citizen are concerns will be held. I would also like to see the so called Kingdoms hold meeting for the towns (mayor); and ofcourse this is for RPers mainly. Well there wass my raint and my 2 cents. I am sure there is something to take from my rammble. Can't wait to see more on this.
     
  15. Brytt

    Brytt Seasoned Veteran
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    I understand. It's a challenge to quantify, because I think the intent is to motivate the storytellers, not the placement of a dozen houses with a quick story slapped on to get the shinies for the vendor mall. That's honestly all I think we're trying to make sure any preset rules -don't- do.

    I think the question is what parameters can you place that objectify good roleplaying, which is a subjective criteria? True storytelling comes in a lot of shapes and sizes, whether you be Dawn or the Girl Scouts or Cartel or DT, and finding one set of rules that encompasses the ones who exhibit the behavior you are trying to reward is tricky.

    I agree. Banners do dead towns no good, but maybe it's enough that there be life in the town and citizenship who would loosely agree to being associated with the town?

    This is a great example. The town's not dead and there's significant RP merit (in this case, historical) in the area, it's just maybe not inhabited by its original occupants, as no real town ever would be.

    Suggestion: Throw out the naming system on Baja (I'd prefer to throw out size altogether). Something another shard did was:
    1) Buildings
    5-10 Village/Hamlet
    11-20 Town
    21-30 City
    31+ Kingdom/Empire/City-State


    That makes a nice taxonomy for some shards but I don't think this kind of system would work for Baja. A decade of calling Dawn a kingdom would be scrapped. Golden has actually been a Town for as long and when things slowed down along the way we were downgraded to a Village. I get it, but ouch. That's not our size, that's our name. :) Plus, I think it rewards the wrong kind of behavior as folks pack in the buildings to try to get the names they want.

    If a town is "in", let them decide what to call themselves (within reason).

    What about some kind of points system?

    Point Idea #1:
    I think that the towns should be able to show demonstrable impact on the culture/story of Baja. Past or present. Show me news clippings, or current events that are being hosted, or your library of vast repertoire that add a rich heritage to the shard, or show me the forum board posts of all the people that complain that they consistently get ganked every time they step foot on your shores. Show me your story. Points 1-6.

    Point Idea #2:
    I agree, the area should be active, but not necessarily by any one particular guild. An association of related neighbors interested in claiming that town's heritage is enough for me. Are there people around? Only when you summon them? Or does there seem to be someone always around? You could have a separate category for currently active players. Points 1-4.

    Point Idea #3:
    Points for creativity and/or style. Gargish player town? Awesome. Handalf the chicken and Emmy the cat want to form their own Animal Farm, go for it. Heck, I know it's non-traditional, but if McLuna's wanted to get a Gwenndy's, Pizza Yurt and Jester in the Box going and RPs real staff in uniforms, I wouldn't immediately say no. :) Points 1-2.

    Point Idea #4:
    Points for likelihood of sustained involvement.Is this a new town with little history yet? Or a town/group who have always been there and always will be? Or somewhere in between, or resurging, or not sure? Points 1-3.

    Point Idea #5:
    Geographic proximity. Are the buildings close together? Or far apart? Points 0-1.

    Get XX number of points, *poof*, you're Towned.

    Maybe something like that, (tweaked as needed or as we get additional feedback) that has metrics but allows for flexibility in rewarding rp behavior of any style? That might work better for us than anything to do with number of buildings. You and Warder are right on that Baja... well... we're a little different.

    Forgive the length.
    (Bard)
    |
    |
    V
     
  16. Brytt

    Brytt Seasoned Veteran
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    Oh, and I think one of the shards made you go set an appointment with the Queen (or other character) to apply for a charter, or something. I love stuff like that. Make folks jump through the RP hoops. That can be one of your barometers for activity. :)
     
  17. WildStar

    WildStar UO Baja News Reporter
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    Harlan,

    Respectfully, it would all depend on the type of government the player-run town or group had, if there would be elections held. For example, the Kingdom of Dawn is a monchary ruled by a King and Queen, while Scythe has a different leadership system.

    WildStar
     
  18. Harlan

    Harlan Guest

    You are right I didn't even think about that.
     
  19. EMSeppo

    EMSeppo Journeyman
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    Brytt: Although the point system is interesting, I disagree with the lack of import given to geographic proximity.

    Main entry: Town (Merriam-Webster)
    1 a cluster or aggregation of houses recognized as a distinct place with a place-name : hamlet
    2 a compactly settled area as distinguished from surrounding rural territory

    In short, a town is an urban area with a fixed boundary. Proximity will remain vital for one to be recognized officially as a town. It should not be the only feature but it is definitely a critical one.

    Warderdragon: It does not necessarily have to be through a petition to the queen. The procedure to activate the process of gaining recognition is something that can be unique to Baja.
     
  20. Brytt

    Brytt Seasoned Veteran
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    Yes, I don't mean to imply that you could create a town from buildings spread across a large area. There would obviously be limits and a minimum standard of acceptability. Rather, if I had a town that almost qualifies for township and the buildings are very very close together and give a really nice compact town feeling, I might use that fact to skootch one more point in their favor.

    That's more what I'm trying to get at and why I gave it the low value. The priority should still be on community impact. But you're absolutely right, there needs to be a minimum geocenter.

    Depending how far down you wanted to break it, you could even take the guesswork out of the point allocation:
    Example:
    Community Involvement (10 points possible)
    -Has a plan to host community events - 1 point
    -Hosts regular scheduled community events or RP PvP incursions- 1 point
    -Visibly involved in storyline events - 1 point
    -Has hosted a scheduled event regularly over (time duration or frequency) - 1 point
    -Has historic cultural significance - 1 point
    -Has a distinctly unique and/or intriguing playstyle or characters - 1 point
    -Has a building that provides a significant community service (rune library, auction house, etc) - 1 point
    -Town buildings make sense within or support the town theme or model - 1 point
    -Some other criteria I haven't thought of yet - 1 point
    -Goes far above and beyond in any of the categories above - 1 point
    Etc etc

    You could then do the same for the other categories.
    ACTIVITY
    Consistent presence of several players
    Current presence of several players but not consistent or consistency unknown
    Only a few players
    Only one player

    Assign the categories and weights as make sense to you, but might be an idea of how you could fairly quantify RP behaviors and communities.
     
  21. Harlan

    Harlan Guest

    I like the way this is looking. Sound fair and dependable for RPers and non. (although I like the RPing part). Still very intrested in where this is going.
     
  22. Brytt

    Brytt Seasoned Veteran
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    I'd like it to be known that I represent only -one- guild and playstyle so for all you lurkers who represent things that I don't, this is a great time to chime in!

    What would everyone else like to see in a system like this? The more voices we have contributing to the process, the better I believe the final result will be.
     
  23. Harlan

    Harlan Guest

    Will there be a way for (town mayors/leaders/bannerholders) or what ever they will be called to ban some one from a small area around the banner. (IE the 4 closes houses or what not). Ofcourse it is understandable for spots like bottle necks that can't be walked around and what not. Or atleast have a votting system impleminted where the town folk can vote for a person to be removed from thier town?
     
  24. EMSeppo

    EMSeppo Journeyman
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    There is no such option.
     
  25. Harlan

    Harlan Guest

    Brytt I keep throwing the m out there and they keep shooting them down like skeet shootting. LOL Just Kidding. Some one has to ask the silly questions I guess.
     
  26. Brytt

    Brytt Seasoned Veteran
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    You weren't shot down, it's just not physically possible. :)

    I think right now we're just looking to discuss how to fairly recognize when a group of buildings has become a "town or (insert entity here)". Any thoughts on that subject?

    As to the specifics of Banner or blessings, those are up to the EM, though from what I understand from how other shards have done it, towns may have some input in the banner design.
     
  27. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    If it were possible; I doubt they'd implement it. Only because then towns could be erected to physically block areas (passes, spawns, etc) to other players.

    Of course you can always do like the Feluccian Towns and toss undesirables out by force.
     
  28. Harlan

    Harlan Guest

    It is also hard for me to suggest anything else on top of what you have for I am a RPer also. I really like what you have come up with. I think ther should be a min number of houses around the banner area. or you will have everyone and there mom wantting one.LOL
    If the older towns that are down to one building they could grandfather them in if need be. I have seen that Baja has no problem with the prosses fo that. There should also be a renew factor (if possable) like a boat or house that the township will have to touch or open a menu to renew or what ever. That way if a township (died) the banner would go.
     
  29. Hazz

    Hazz Visitor
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    Looks good to me so far. Run with it Brytt!

    -Hazard of the very dormant(?) Avalon

    Representing board lurkers everywhere.
     
  30. Brytt

    Brytt Seasoned Veteran
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    Hazz, you old so and so! See, I was just telling someone how so many things have changed since I left and how many others are like looking back through time. Glad to see you about! Kita and I were talking Avalon the other day and your name came up. She'll be pleased to know you're still lurking. :)
     
  31. Brytt

    Brytt Seasoned Veteran
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    I meant to respond to this sooner. Here are a few threads from other shards who have set up Town Banner systems. The majority seem to use size (simple building count) as the qualifying factor, which I think folks in Baja (or at least the ones who have contributed to this thread--speak now or forever hold your peace!) are saying we don't want or, at least, that we want to be a lesser consideration than the effect the group/town/entity has on Baja's community, rp or otherwise.

    Europa
    http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=189858
    Lake Superior
    http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=194191
    Drachenfels
    http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=180989
    Siege Perilous
    http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=175183

    What does a town banner look like, you might ask?

    Here are a few from Atlantic, but it's unknown what precise form Baja's banner system will take:
    http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=182202
     
  32. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    To my knowledge this is the bext example of what is possible with the Town Banner System. This is when I began to change my mind (based in part on envy).

    [Imperium News] Kijustsu Anei Keys Banner Completed.

    [​IMG]

    It is a fully functional dock system that the residents and villagers can use. This is what I wouldn't mind seeing. Docks. City Gates. Cannons and Catapults. Vineyards. Things that aren't attached to any one players building but still add flavor and character to the Town.

    And I wouldn't mind seeing some groups aligning themselves with various storyline factions. I can imagine a hall of banners in Castle Britannia; with the standards belonging to those allied to Queen Dawn. The only concern I have is seeing groups miss out because they have their own alligiences, political motivations, storylines, etc.
     
  33. Brytt

    Brytt Seasoned Veteran
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    So what's a fair period of establishment for a town to be considered? 6 months? A year?

    Here's another mockup of a "points" system. I even tossed size back in there, but with a lighter weighting assignment, just to see what it could look like. Pick it to pieces, please! If you represent a playstyle that you feel really works their butts off to serve the community who isn't addressed here, chime in!

    GOES WITHOUT SAYING that this is still just one players idea. Got another one? Or a simpler one? Or one that is more fair? Chime in!
    *****************

    Municipality Recognition Survey
    for ___________________________

    to be completed by Britannian Municipal Consul (or whoever!)

    Town Characteristics:

    • 2 points - Building which provides major community service. (e.g., completed rune libraries, extensive fiction libraries, auction house). Vendor malls not included.
    • 2 points - Municipality has significant historical significance within the story of Baja.
    • 1 point - Buildings make sense together as a town, or support a common theme.
    • 1 point - Majority of buildings are exceptionally intriguing or extremely well themed.
    Town Citizens:

    • 1 point - Have plans to host community event, or have hosted in the past.
    • 1 point - Currently host a publicized, recurring community event (at least 3 within past 6 months).
    • 1 point - Currently hosts AND has a history of hosting recurring community events over several years.
    • 2 points - Regularly participate as actors or plot points within EM events.
    • 1 point - Has a distinctly unique or intriguing playstyle or characters.
    • 1 point - Go exceptionally beyond expectations in any of the categories above.
    • 1 point - Shenanigans (unscheduled events) have noticeably captured news headlines on several occasions over several months. I added this one just to be able to use the word, "shenanigans".
    Town Size

    • -1 point - 1 Building
    • 0 points - 2-4 Buildings
    • 1 point - 5-9 Buildings
    • 2 points - 10+ Buildings
    Town Activity

    • 3 points - Consistent presence of several players.
    • 2 points - Current presence of several players but not consistent, or unknown.
    • 1 point - Only a few players (2-4)
    • 0 points - Only one player
    ________
    Total Points

    10 needed to be recognized.
    **********************

    So, given something like that, you could accommodate several playstyles. For example:

    Case Study #1 - The dying Berg of Bronheim

    The Berg of Bronheim was a historic roleplaying guild active in the same area for nearly 8 years. It has dwindled to three current players, who maintain 4 buildings, including the massive rune library. All players are currently involved in EM events and although Bronheim itself hosts no events, the players are often seen in full lederhosen, and their unscheduled accordian antics are frequently in the news. The town itself is nice, but nothing extraordinary outside of the library.

    2 pts - major service building
    2 pts - historical significance
    1 pt - buildings make sense
    1 pt - hosted in the past
    2 pts - participate in EM events
    1 pt - unique playstyle
    1 pt - shenanigans
    0 pts - town size
    1 pt - town activity
    ------
    Total: 11 points. Bronheim is recognized as a municipality.

    Case Study #2 - Town of Heaven's Landing
    The guild, Angels of Heaven's Landing, are not roleplayers. However, they consist of twelve players with eleven buildings which are extremely well themed. The entire village looks like a lost city in the clouds, and the attention to consistent details is astounding. They have just begun hosting auctions at a new auction house (just had their first one!), and the many vendors in the town mean there's always someone hanging out in Heaven's Landing. Heaven's landing has been around for about a year now.

    2 pts - major service building
    1 pt - buildings make sense
    1 pt - buildings extremely well themed
    1 pt - host events (auctions)
    (no points for currently hosting because they haven't hosted 3 auctions yet)
    2 pts - 10+ buildings
    3 pts - consistent presence of multiple players

    ------
    Total: 10 points. Heaven's Landing is recognized as a municipality


    Case Study #3 - Animal Farm

    It's a thing out of nightmares when you visit the Animal Farm. The players all play characters like "a farm cat" and "friendly fox" in full polymorph/ninjitsu form, but woe to those who trespass! Animal Farm is five buildings in Felucca, so be prepared to hear that cat hiss "Corp Por" as soon as you reach down to pet it. They don't participate in RP events outside of the farm, but the buildings are all themed like henhouses, barns, and sheds. They're frequently on the news and five times a year, they invite other characters to polymorph with them and wreak havoc on the champ spawns in Fel. There seem to be several players but it's unclear how many or how frequently they're available.

    1 pt - buildings make sense
    1 pt - majority of buildings extremely well themed
    1 pt - hosted events
    1 pt - currently hosting events
    1 pt - distinctly unique playstyle
    1 pt - exceptionally beyond expectations playstyle
    1 pt - shenanigans
    1 pts - 5 buildings
    2 pts - presence of several players, but inconsistent

    ------
    Total: 10 points. Animal Farm is recognized as a municipality.


    Case Study #4 - Fireshire
    Fireshire ran the best pub on the shard for a dozen years, but has slowed down to two players who maintain the town's five buildings. There's an extensive fiction library, but the two players are rarely seen online. Fireshire has hosted in the past, but no longer hosts any events, or at least none that the EM has seen.

    2 pts - major service building
    2 pts - historic significance
    1 pt - buildings make sense together
    1 pt - hosted in the past
    0 pts - 5 buildings
    1 pt - only a few players

    ------
    Total: 7 points. Fireshire is not recognized, but the EM advises that if they were to be a little more active, their service building and historic significance would make it easy for them to qualify next time around.


    Still could probably use some tweaking, and there would need to be some minimum qualifications, for example:

    • Town must have existed for a minimum time period
    • Minimum geographic proximity requirements
    • Not formed for inappropriate purpose or theme
    Also, I'm sure I have imbalances and typos and oversights galore here, so thoughts/feedback welcome.
     
  34. Brytt

    Brytt Seasoned Veteran
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    A Hall of Banners would be fun. You could stick the ones who don't ally themselves with any other faction over in Blackthorn's Castle. Order. Chaos. Isn't that how that goes?

    Poor Seppo. Having to whittle all of our brain explosions down to ideas that can actually be -used- without causing coronary.
     
  35. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    It looks like a fair system. I don't want to see it get too complex; but overall it looks solid.

    Six months. I don't want to see people discouraged from starting one; just discouraged from starting one for all the wrong reasons.

    I'd be very careful about this one; only because such points could be awarded (or not awarded) as a matter of personal taste. A hamlet of simple farmers and woodsmen could be just as interesting and unique as a Byzantine state of warring factions and political intrigue.

    Not necessarily. I enjoy a certain level of realism; and not all those who choose to remain independant of the Britannian Monarch are Evil or Anarchist. (i.e. the Kingdom of Dawn.)

    Overall I want to see two things (no matter what system is put in place); Flexibility and Creativity. This is meant to be something that adds to the shards flavor and uniqueness so I don't want to see it turn into a competition. And I'd like to see Seppo and Crysania go a bit wild with it.
     
  36. Brytt

    Brytt Seasoned Veteran
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    Completely agree. Tried to acknowledge certain "small wonder" playstyles, like the Girl Scouts with that point, but you need to keep an open mind and be fair if you're going to use it.
     
  37. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    I have a question for EM Seppo.

    Suppose a person has multiple accounts and decided they wanted the prestige of having a town banner placed near one of their houses. So they take advantage of one of Baja's huge open housing areas, say in Malas, to plunk down a collection of houses. Then they put names on the houses to signify they are all part of a collection of sorts. They even style the houses differently to represent such things as a town hall, a museum, a stable, etc.

    Mind you, all this has been done by ONE person.

    If this person applies for a town banner, will someone at EA catch on somehow to the fact that all of the buildings are owned by the same individual?

    I own multiple houses on Baja still, with three of them still sharing one common corner location and with the ability to place a fourth one to utilize that common corner. I also have a guildmate that just recently came back to playing UO after being gone for almost three years. And we still have a guild website, although it hasn't been updated in a long time because I've been almost the only active member of the guild in several years (one other fellow logs in on Baja every couple of weeks but I haven't actually spoken to him in game or otherwise in many months).

    If I wanted to be devious about things and rearranged my houses on Baja so they were all in the same vicinity and even opened a few more accounts for a couple of months to erect even a few more and then tried to con you into believing that I deserve a town banner, would you fall for it?
     
  38. Brytt

    Brytt Seasoned Veteran
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    Let's try the points system on this scenario:

    Low ball:
    1 pt - buildings make sense together
    1 pt - 5-9 buildings
    1 pt - only a few players (unless you're multi-clienting when EMs are around)

    3 pts - municipality is not recognized.

    High ball:
    Lets say you're one player and one player only, but you work your butt off:

    2 pts - you build the best, most complete rune library on the shard.
    1 pt - buildings make sense together
    1 pt - you go crazy on your theme: you've done up the whole village to look like a Bavarian village, with Swiss Miss npcs, ski lodges, and hot cocoa shacks
    2 pts - you somehow own 10 buildings
    2 pts - you multi-client and fool everyone into thinking that you're six people, who we encounter fairly often over the course of several months.

    You're at 8 points. You'd still need to participate in the community.

    1 pt - have hosted events in the past
    1 pt - currently have been hosting big rummage sales, where you post on Stratics to get people to come down for a day and sell stuff. You've hosted 3 well-published events in the last 6 months and plan to hold more.

    If you keep that town active for 6+ months and continue hosting events, there's your 10 points, from one person. Some might argue you earned it.

    That's my thought, anyway.
     
  39. BajaElladan

    BajaElladan Certifiable
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    Hail Folks,

    Let me begin by stating clearly that I doubt my situation will qualify for a Town Banner. One Establishment, I believe is worthy of recognition, but beyond that I'm unsure any of my houses would meet the criteria so far stated.

    One of "my" dwellings is the Baja Community Center located on the NW Corner of Luna. It has been open for several years. It was created and designed for the use of all of Baja's citizens able to travel to Luna. It has most of the Crafter Tools (Loom, Spinning wheel, forge an anvil, training dummies and dips,) along with numerous runebooks, dye tubs, luck statues, hot tub, Banquet/Meeting Roof, all set for public use. There is an Arcane Circle for Spellweavers and will likely soon also be a Soul Forge.

    The rest of my dwellings include Castles, Keeps, and a few custom or classic homes placed from Ice Island to the Trinsic swamps, and from Yew area to Minoc. All of my dwellings are "Loyal to the Crown," and our current ruler, Queen Dawn.

    I hesitate to say more at this stage lest some doubt my sanity or my positive intentions. Let me just say that I am in a process of reducing houses owned and active accounts. When finished I expect to still have 10-12 dwellings and accounts.

    To the extent my dwellings may stand for and be used for more than they currently are, I am very open to such a discussion. If not, I will continue to enjoy and support Baja to the best of my capability.

    I invite your comments and feedback.

    Elladan of Baja
     
  40. Harlan

    Harlan Guest

    Town Size

    -1 point - 1 Building
    0 points - 2-4 Buildings
    1 point - 5-9 Buildings
    2 points - 10+ Buildings
    I don't like the points. There are Island that will not support to many building and I would hate to see soe on enot be called a town cuz they just can't fit te amount of building needed. may be give a choice of posable calling: 4-5 Town,village,outpost (townships choice)
     
  41. EMSeppo

    EMSeppo Journeyman
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    Not everyone who wants to be a town can be one. Certain conditions have to be met. The physical presence of a town is going to be one of the mandatory conditions.

    If you try to circumvent the system, you should realize that you are taking time away from other projects which could better serve your shard. Given the strong community and fair play spirit present in Baja, I am hopeful that we will not see such cases.

    If you would like to be a town, then I would suggest meeting up with other players and pool your resources. It will be a far more satisfactory experience. A town has to be a hub of activity and a place where citizens of all walks of life are living together. You might not even like everyone in your town but that is what makes it fun. Too often people forget that they do not have to interact only within their small group of friends.

    To give an idea, the rules could be something along these lines:

    Mandatory conditions

    * Does the municipality have atleast X number of houses in the vicinity?

    * Has the municipality held community events in the past X number of months?

    * Is the municipality older than X number of days?


    Other conditions (Three out of five must be met)

    * Do the citizens of the municipality actively promote themselves?

    * Does it have a sufficient charter?

    * Are there community centric buildings such as a tavern?

    * Has it participated in events with town participation?

    * Do they have events planned in the near future?
     
  42. SuperKen

    SuperKen Slightly Crazed
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    Sorry, I got in here a little late.

    Tons of reading and thinking to do, and I've started with the former, for now.

    I did have two thoughts, though, before I left.

    First off, there's M!S. I think a lot of people know where M!S live, because they have occupied the area south of the Deceit entrance on Ice Isle in Felucca for years and years now. The keeps, towers, and castles are all within close range of each other if not right next to each other, and they used to have some terrific battles there. They paid quite a bit of money to go out of their way to have houses next to each other.

    M!S also hosts the Archery contest every month, and were the first to start off the Zoo Taming Hour. Though their participation has dwindled in the past 2 months, they're still a very active guild with a long history.

    Unfortunately, they do almost zero RP'ing. I'm not even sure they're aware of this program and how they might qualify. I'll be sure to send an ICQ to let them know, because in my mind, they definitely qualify.

    I know that most of the suggestions here have stated that RP isn't a necessary component. But at the same time, most of the suggestions do feel that it's necessary for the town to have some kinda participation in the general public.

    Now that's great for M!S, but I must admit I'm worried about Cartel then. As far as I know, we've done two public events. We have no plans to do any other ones, and Cartel participation in public events is limited to mostly coming in, when asked, to kill people.

    We are also limited to the amount of houses we can place on the Island because most of it is wooded area that doesn't allow for the placing of houses. Not to mention that not everyone wants to live on the Island when the bigger plots have all been taken.

    I appreciate that EM Seppo suggested that Cartel would most likely get grandfathered in anyways, but I kinda worry that we're not holding up our end of what it takes to be in the program. We have about 6 houses and little to no participation in just about anything. The houses aren't arranged to be a "tavern", "library", etc., because, well, PvPers don't think that way. We do have, however, a great sense of community amongst ourselves: we all feel safe on our island and treat it like our own already, and we're all PvPers with zero exceptions.

    So, in conclusion, my first thought is that I hope we don't forget about M!S. And my second thought is that Cartel will probably have to shape up if we're going to go for this.

    EDIT: Those docks look amazing. They are almost exactly what I had envisioned would be created for us if Lord Casca had took our deal to help economically develop Cartel Isle. Unfortunately, he refused.

    EDIT2: What are the advantages and disadvantages of this program? I read that there would be monster spawn created in the municipality? And that the municipalities are linked? What does that mean?

    EDIT3: I'm not sure about now, but once the Legion of the Emerald Sashes had a whole area on one of the "islands" in Malas. Every house was taken up by them, and they had a Tavern, Guildhouse, Library, and even a Farm. In total, I would say there was about 12 houses before. I don't know how active they are now though. I'm sure many more examples exist, and I'd hate to see people miss out if they are qualified for this.
     
  43. WildStar

    WildStar UO Baja News Reporter
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    I think Cartel does more then you think, Super Ken. You do participate in the EM storylines and you do have a sense of community.

    How it works on Chessy is that if you have a town banner, you WILL get monsters that spawn in your town from time to time as part of a storyline the EM's are currently involved in. The size of the spawn is based on your size. So, for example, a village will get less spawn then a township considered a city. It will be similar to the spawn system used here on Baja during the Casca storyline.

    The townships are linked via a teleporter hub that is located just south of Luna on Chessy. You double click the statue and it will take you to that township's town banner. If you double click an item on the town banner, it will take you back to Luna. If you want to take a look, just contact me.

    WildStar
     
  44. SuperKen

    SuperKen Slightly Crazed
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    Thanks for the clarification, Wildstar. Is that true for only Chessy, or are all town banners like that?

    Going to Luna isn't really useful for us. As for town size, I really wouldn't mind much if we were called the Cartel Settlement. The name isn't that important to us.

    Town Banners should be awarded based on activity, community participation and physical proximity/size. I feel like those would be the most important factors.

    Community participation would be a mixed aggregate of that community's history and shared identity, historical significance to the shard, and maybe...shard awareness of that community? Shard awareness could be brought about by community events, or just mere presence in all things UO.
     
  45. WildStar

    WildStar UO Baja News Reporter
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    I suspect they all work that way but can only really speak for how it works on Chessy.

    WildStar
     
  46. EMSeppo

    EMSeppo Journeyman
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    Proposed rules, please leave feedback:

    Mandatory conditions

    * Does the municipality have atleast six houses in the vicinity?

    * Has it participated in shard events with town participation? Or, made its presence felt through any other manner?

    * Is the municipality older than 30 days?


    Other conditions (Three out of four must be met)

    * Do the citizens of the municipality actively promote themselves?

    * Can the municipality provide at least one other established town as a reference?

    * Are there community centric buildings such as a tavern?

    * Has the municipality held community events in the past 6 months? or do they have events planned in the near future?
     
  47. jwauk99

    jwauk99 Adventurer
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    Perhaps I missed it in earlier messages (my brain became overloaded after reading all of this), but... is this new town banner system going to replace the OLD way of doing things where guilds/towns/communities previously signed up to be included in various EM based RP events via the golden brew website?

    I certainly hope not :(

    This new format (6 buildings minimum) rules out various places like the Ordo Malleus (Malleus Malificarum), Dark Tower, and Ravenshire, ALL of which heavily participated in the Independent Kingdoms storyline and the Gargoyles storyline. Not to mention, the Girl Scouts of Baja (Troop 1) also participated in the Gargoyle storyline and they too do not meet the requirement of multiple buildings. Yet those four organizations played, to various degrees, a part in past EM storylines.

    I'd be disheartened to hear if those places were no longer included in various EM based events and storylines because they don't have enough physical buildings for a fancy town banner system.

    Just my $.02. (which is worth only half of that).
     
  48. Harlan

    Harlan Guest

    I love them I see no problem with them Looks great So when do we apply. LOL Can't wait till we get afew started hope to see you around
     
  49. Brytt

    Brytt Seasoned Veteran
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    I haven't seen anything published on this, but I strongly doubt you'd need to be a town to be a major EM storyline plotpoint. The purpose of this system is to encourage players to flourish, participate and cooperate, not to discourage participation if you're not a "town".

    I also struggle with the challenge of what to do with the small, powerful guilds, like the ones you mentioned. If this program had launched during the little stint where we moved the Golden Brew to Malas, I'd feel weird if our one building had somehow qualified but subsequently moved. On the flip side, I really feel like I want these groups included because of their (real and significant) behavior which exemplifies behavior that exceeds expectations for shard contributions.

    Is it possible that the EMs can find a way to reward exemplary shard contributions in addition to or independent of the town banner system? That's my only rub with the size restriction and I think it's what we as a shard are saying we want to make sure we acknowledge. Size is part of the dictionary definition of a "town" but the efforts of some smaller groups are herculean and profound in the Baja story or history. Whether or not they qualify as a "town", per se, I wouldn't complain if a mysterious cookie hut appeared outside the girl scouts hall or heads on pikes appeared near DT or Ravenshire.

    It's tricky, because I don't think EMs are supposed to bless building or areas that aren't part of an approved, fair system like a town banner program, but gosh. To use an analogy, if we were discussing qualifications for "Best Motion Picture" awards, it'd sure be great to see a few "Best Actor/Actress" awards conspicuously or discreetly passed out, because they do have real impact on the shard.

    I don't know what is and isn't possible or within the scope of the programs, but that'd be my question. For small guilds who aren't really "towns" but have big impact, can we be open to the idea of commemorating their areas or doing... I dunno... something to reward big behavior? Maybe that's a whole 'nother thread. :). I kinda think that it's a separate issue from "what is a player town" the more that I think about it (and as Seppo reminded us), but just want to make sure we give it due thought.
     
  50. Brytt

    Brytt Seasoned Veteran
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    And, for the record, outside of my comments on the size issue (last post), I think this is right on. Way better for Baja than any of the sheer size systems. Nice work, Seppo and THANK YOU for taking the time to make Baja a little different. To me, these are traits I think of when I think of player towns.