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Tram Despise Exploit

Discussion in 'UHall' started by PlayerSkillFTW, Apr 18, 2014.

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  1. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    So, when did it become legal to intentionally kill other players in Trammel rule set areas?
    Last time i dropped a GM Explosion Trapped Box at Brit Bank, and people were having fun killing themselves with it, a GM popped up and warned me that killing other players in Trammel rule set areas was not only griefing, but an illegal exploit, and that i could be temp banned for it (or permanently, if i kept doing it). Not like i was forcing people to open the chest surrounded by corpses, though.

    However, there's a group that likes to camp Tram Despise all day, every day, and they intentionally, and repeatedly, kill other players in there using the Despise "pets". Hell, one of them literally rez killed one of my guildies three or four times at the res Ankh in Despise. This has been going on for awhile now (to where most other guilds know to not even bother with Tram Despise), and they've done so to gain a monopoly on the Despise Artifacts on the shard.
    Can we expect anything to be done about this at any time in the foreseeable future (i'm certainly not holding my breath)?
     
    #1 PlayerSkillFTW, Apr 18, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  2. SoulWeaver

    SoulWeaver King of The Bearded Ladies
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    Highly Doubtful but maybe one day!
     
  3. Dol'Gorath

    Dol'Gorath Grand Inquisitor
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    Did you page a GM using the harassment option? It should bring up a target to click on the player that saves their account information so the GM can track them down.
     
  4. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    I haven't, but several of my guildies have, and i'm pretty sure other people have as well, since that guild has been monopolizing Tram Despise for at least a month (since before i made a char on Atlantic).
     
  5. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    Don't bother, cheating and exploiting is basically encouraged in UO as absolutely NOTHING is ever done about it. These people ARE using legal game mechanics to grief you and I am sure some bright spark will say it is working as intended and there is nothing to be done as no one is cheating or exploiting. This same problem was reported when despise was first changed and as you see NOTHING was done about it. I doubt anything you say here will stop it.
     
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  6. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Yeah, UO basically embraced cheating when people refused Punkbuster. That was the last time EA seriously attempted to do something about cheating.
     
  7. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    The first part...no, and Punkbuster would not have done anything anyway about what you're describing. There have been too many exploits without use of third-party programs.

    And besides the privacy issues, Punkbuster itself is limited in what it can catch.
     
  8. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    I'm pretty sure a dev already touched on this saying it wasn't illegal considering the lore of the two sides..but I could be mistaken..the two brothers at war or some crap


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  9. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    When EA announced they were going to implement Punkbuster, that was the last time EA made any even half-serious attempt to curb cheating in UO. The UO community cried out for cheat prevention, EA answered with Punkbuster, but the UO community wasn't really serious about it, and rejected Punkbuster.
    I know Punkbuster wouldn't do anything about the exploitation of some game mechanics (which is this thread's topic), but it certainly would piss in the Cheerios of a speedhacker. Yeah, some very advanced cheat programs can elude Punkbuster for a short time, but any amount of anti-cheat protection would've benefited UO immensely.
     
  10. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    If lore is a legitimate reason to allow killing other players in Trammel, then why the hell aren't Faction members able to kill each other in Trammel? Why weren't Followers of Tal'keesh allowed to kill Royal Britannian Guard members in Trammel on Napa? Why weren't Followers of Bane allowed to kill people allied with the Ophidians and Meer?
     
  11. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Well, Punkbuster had privacy issues that concerned even me, as anti-cheater as I am. EA could have implemented measures to detect the effects of cheating, though not third-party executables themselves. It's also not hard to circumvent something that can only look for known MD5 hashes, rather than behavior. "We've put in code to detect manipulation of the data stream and will commence bans without mercy" would have discouraged UOErs, and it didn't have to be an empty threat, either. Something like "We've put in code to determine who's moving faster than the hard speed cap" might scare off a few speedhackers, and it's technically feasible to do also.

    It does seem, admittedly, that as subscriber numbers dwindled and every account became important, EA focused less on cheating in the hope it wasn't bad enough to drive players away. What I think EA should have done very early on: listen to the player community and take action quickly. If they had more actively scoured Stratics, Crossroads of Britannia, and related Usenet newsgroups when they were active, they'd have learned very soon what was new. Someone devoted part-time to learning about new bugs and exploits could have saved a lot of accounts back in UO's heyday.
     
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  12. Captn Norrington

    Captn Norrington Trade Forum Administrator
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    Someone tried this on some of my guildies at a guildhunt, they paged on the guy harassing them, and the GM actually did order the griefer to stop or be removed from the dungeon. if GM's are allowed to do this (not sure if they are allowed or if he was just feeling nice that day), I see no reason why the devs couldn't add despise griefing to the list of what is considered harassment by the game.
     
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  13. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Maybe you should have paged too. Multiple people paging as opposed to a few tend to draw more attention.
     
  14. Bobar

    Bobar Babbling Loonie
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    If I remember correctly this particular issue began very shortly after the introduction of Despise as it is today. I think it was posted on then as well. Nothing was done then which does not auger well for anything being done now.
     
  15. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    I thought that was the whole point of this "Mini Game" Dungeon revamp? You pick the good or evil side, you get a minion that you "level" up. The PLAYER isn't killing you, the minion is, and its not like they are super powerful.

    *shrugs*

    Like its been said, this so called issue was brought up when Despise was first revamped.
     
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  16. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Same old story.... like it happened time back with the Powerscrolls, they started with all players having fun with them and then it shrinked to a very limited number of players who took monopoly of those spawns and became extremely rich by being able to decide how many millions or even tens of millions that scrolls needed by all players had to cost.............

    This eventually, to my opinion, made the game overwhelmingly expensive to be played by the occasional player who did not have time to gather all of the gold needed to buy all the powerscrolls for all the players of an account and a lot left Ultima Online and the player base srinked and blah blah.....

    I do not know, but I have not much hope. The Powerscrolls monopoly has been a big deterrant to play UO for many players and I would have thought that over the years the Developers would have done something about it but no, it has been left a Monopoly for a few players (who became enormously rich and thus even more powerfull thanking to the superior gear which they could afford) without doing anything about it even though a whole lot of players were leaving UO because they had enough of that status of things remaining unchanged.

    The Despise thing is surely annoying, but nothing as compared to the Monopoly of Powerscrolls.....
    If nothing was done to break the Monopolies of Powerscrolls, I doubt that anything might be done today to break the Monopoly about Despise artifacts.

    Personally, I see the inception of Powerscrolls only in Felucca with the obvious consequence of the creation of monopolies about their control as probably the main cause for the loss of players in Ultima Online. And, as we well know, it did nothing to help PvP or the Felucca facet would not be a dead facet void of people as it is.....
    Unfortunately, the developers over the years mistakenly bought the argument of those who claimed that Powerscrolls in Felucca helped PvP (which it did clearly not, or we would not have had now a dead Felucca facet, regardless of how important powerscrolls are to all players...) and left the status of things and those unfortunate Monopolies let be.

    And so lots and lots of players had enough of it and quit playing UO althougether thus shrinking the player base of the game.

    That's at least as I see it, personally.
     
    #16 popps, Apr 19, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
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  17. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I absolutely agree.

    The zero tolerance policy against cheating should have been implemented right at start, when players' numbers were still steady enough to stand the hit of bannings.

    What could be done now ? Clearly not mass bannings but "some" bans against the most aggressive cheatings of UO should still be done to let players know that the Policy is still against cheating and that actions WILL be taken....

    The thing is, that often cheaters use for their cheats "disposable" accounts, accounts which, even if banned, would be a loss that they care nothing about because the characters can be easily redone and the account was holding nothing important or valuable as far as items or gold.

    If a message wants to be sent out loud and sound, the selective bans should happen not only against the one probably "disposable" account actually breaking the rules, but also for the other account or accounts which have been benefitting from this breaking of the rules....

    Like, if a player with Account A, that is a disposable one which could be lost and easily recreated after a ban makes available items which are then transferred to Account B which has broken no rules and holds the ill-gotten items, the Game Masters should make their investigation and when determined that also Account B has been benefitting from the breaking of rules of Account A ban both accounts althougether...

    I think that this would hurt cheaters and send that loud and sound message which UO needs to be heard, if something against cheating needs be done, finally......

    That's at least how I see it.....
     
  18. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Well, when you have a Lvl 15 Sagittarri with 750+ Stamina literally machine gunning 44 damage arrows (at all 70's Resists) into you with up to 160 Archery (meaning he rarely misses even against 120 Wep/45% DCI), it can seem pretty powerful. If you go to run past it at mount speed, it can kill you before you can get out of range.

    Nah, the real problem i'm talking about isn't the monopoly of Despise, but the fact that in Despise you can apparently kill other players in Trammel and get away with it (which Tram was specifically created to prevent players from killing players within it). Hell, even the Physical Harassment page specifically mentions using game mechanics to kill other players in Trammel rule set areas. If this would've happened in Fel, i'd have no problem with it, that's the nature of Fel.
     
  19. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Honestly I don't really care...I'm just saying what I read..the internet doesn't lie.

    You have a few options from what I can see..train up your own and fight back, or don't go there while they are there..if there's no one to prey on, the will eventually get bored. Unfortunately from the sound of it though, these "griefers" seem to be logged in from server up to server down and are just destroying the tram despise dungeon for all comers!!
    What a shame, it's such a good dungeon!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    Dead Horse subject sorry you didn't figure it out when it all started but using the conscripts to kill and rekill players IS GRIEFING and has been confirmed buy a few different devs, but as for the mechanics they are not going to change it. You have to be diligent and page repeatedly on the grievers, and hope you et a GM to intervene. ANYONE posting any information conflicting my post can do some of your own research and find the MANY, MANY past issues with this and perhaps email mesanna and ask her, but these actions ARE GRIEFING :-(
     
  21. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    I don't know I just don't get a lot of players..it's so mind numbingly simple. There are plenty of options to get even with griefers..but instead your cure is to come here and complain..what are you 5? Deal with it and move on..you're ruining my gameplay by not letting me grief you!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  22. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    This post is a prime example of why people who have fond memories of UO will never return. (as can be seen from the comments on the steam greenlight page) Because the heart of the game is gone, people complain about everything calling it griefing. Cant just accept the game and Play it. we are only left with a sludge of colors, deco items, and tram farming as the majority of content.

    If that game mechanic in Despise was Not Intended, it would have been changed.
    Yes, I agree, it totally depends on the GM you get whether something is deemed griefing or not

    P.S. poisoning food and leaving it at haven bank, watching noobs die was really fun, and a good laugh sure did break up the monotony of training that slow skill.
     
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  23. Tjalle

    Tjalle Grand Inquisitor
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    I play Siege so I have no horse in this race. But...

    If Trammel was designed to be a safe place from other players then it should be a safe place from other players.
    Don´t allow players to be able to attack another player using "pets". Don´t allow players to steal from their guildmates.

    Make it the safe place it was supposed to be for players who only want to play the game in a relaxing way without having to worry about another player doing something to them.
    Be consistent.
     
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  24. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Ahhh but you see it's lose lose...they want one but not the other..they've been coddled for so long, when something arises they don't know what to do..


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  25. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    "Physical Harassment
    Use this option when another player is harassing your character using game mechanics. Physical harassment includes but is not limited to luring and any act that causes a player death in Trammel."
    According to UO's Rules, it is harassment, and thus illegal due to the ToS, plain and simple. Not like the devs/GMs are ever going to do anything about it though (like with scripting, duping and cheating).

    The entirety of UO has been coddled for a long time now, not just the Trammel side. UO PvP hasn't been hardcore since before AoS.
     
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  26. SlobberKnocker

    SlobberKnocker Slightly Crazed

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    on the day I witnessed it there was an auction going on so the auctioneers were throwing gates to their house. this momo was throwing his gate as well into despise. unfortunately his gate landed you on a one tile playing square surrounded by boxes so you were essentially trapped in while his minion had its way with you. I managed to kill his minion and got him so angry that he followed me out of the dungeon and told me to go clean my moms basement. I couldn't clean her basement given she lives 40 miles from my house but w/e.

    army, you'd know this guy well. he plays a blue and cowers in the gz on yew atlantic.
     
  27. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Hmmm..who?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  28. Herman

    Herman Seasoned Veteran
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    Simple and elegant

    No irrelevant vague opinion about how another person should react or play
    The rules of the game explain how one should play and react

    I like your post very much
     
    #28 Herman, Apr 20, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2014
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  29. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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  30. Cadderly

    Cadderly Journeyman
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    karma, ten years later
     
  31. megster12

    megster12 Visitor

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    ALook ill just tell you how it is. On day two of this revamp I spoke to a GM about people killing me and pets. His response was this is now a PVP area and then I ask so this is ok and he says its a battle of good and evil and killing pets and people with pets was ok. Then went poof he never to be seen again. Starting that day to me its kill or be killed no one gets a free ride if im there. So cry all you want page like so many have over and over. If your mad and crying I won if I have the spoils and you don't I won. oh for all those people that say come to fel yew ill kick you A%% I do and you don't kick crap most the time you are all run just don't know who your running from and never will only a hand full of people know my chars. Still miss the fel only days. If you say that's not PVP no its not your idea of PVP but its still PVP. Oh yeah if you read the story its also role playing. LEARN TO BEAT ME OR DIE.

    LONG LIVE ANDROS
    Mr Longtool and the AND? guild
     
    #31 megster12, May 19, 2014
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
  32. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Rubbish. I find it hard to believe a GM would actually claim that, even with the occasional tale of a GM who doesn't know his brass from his oboe.

    What a wonderfully eloquent argument. The quality of your words speaks volumes about just who you are.

    It's Trammel. "Role playing" does not extend to killing other players, or getting them killed. So by your standard, certain players all those years ago were merely "role playing" burglars by using house break-in exploits? Some GMs initially said the exploits were fine, dismissing them as "creative use of game mechanics." When Trammel opened, and players were initially able to heal monsters, was that also "role playing" to get people killed?
     
  33. megster12

    megster12 Visitor

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    lol well only the one GM and as long as I been here I would have had a lot more if it was an exploit.
    Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong." – Ayn Rand
     
  34. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    Is it possible for you to make any less sense?

    "lol well"
     
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  35. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    Clearly this isn't an exploit and is a poorly thought design. If there is a person waiting for you with the intention of killing you and your pet then make one aligned the other way. There is a solution to be found somewhere. Farm a small shard and do it all day long.
     
  36. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    It's always seemed to me a breach of the spirit of Trammel, even if Devs and GMs haven't said anything about it. When Trammel first opened, luring was quickly declared illegal. Then griefers found that they could heal monsters, which was fixed. Corpses were initially lootable when they turned to bones, which took a little longer to fix. There were no exploits involved here, just poorly planned game mechanics that were fixed. Maybe the Devs don't think there are enough people who go to Despise to be worth their while.
     
  37. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    I think the system is functioning exactly as they intended it to... This is a battle between the two sides to see which side gets to "win" by being teleported down to fight one of the brothers. The Devs clearly intended for opposing sides pets to be able to attack players and their pets from the opposing team.

    As with so many other systems some folks have taken the system and used it to grief other players for no other purpose than disrupting someone else's game. I feel very sorry for folks who have so little self worth that the best gaming they can come up with is to try and make others as miserable as they obviously are.
     
  38. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    If it is "as intended," then it shows the current Devs don't understand the spirit in which Trammel was created. The initially "overlooked" opportunities to grief were fairly quickly resolved, because the idea is that players shouldn't be able to get others killed in Trammel. Call it Care Bear Land, but it's the facet for those who don't want to experience aggressive actions by other players.
     
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  39. flappy6

    flappy6 Sage
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    I get the part ,where you fight each other to train the pets up good bra bad blah blah,but once you teleport to the champ ,peeps shouldn't be able to go from good to bad ...kill you..mess the spawn up for like a hour....That part dosent make sense
     
  40. flappy6

    flappy6 Sage
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    They gain nothing from doing it except harassment
     
  41. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    As far as I know there isn't a way for anyone to use their pet against you or your pet once they have been teleported down to level 3. Anything they are doing to grief on that level by luring spawn, etc should fall under harassment.
     
  42. MatlocK

    MatlocK Adventurer
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    I think the main goal is not to grief but to be THE ONLY ONE with a chance at the rewards, some of which have a huge demand and sell for a hefty amount of
    gold(these are not obtainable
    in fel BTW). Much like champs spawns and power scrolls. Me personally, I have faced these guys and they are NOT hard to beat YOU JUST HAVE TO ENDURE SOME ADVERSITY. NOT STAND THERE AND WAIT FOR A HANDOUT.
     
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  43. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    Long ago when UO first opened and I was but a novice in all things of the game... I learned one valuable lesson.
    Even the most mild mannered person in the real world can and will become a down right mean, hatefull, loathsome creature if given half the chance and griefing and harrassing is the art of it.
    These people on the rl plain of the world stage are sweet and kind... but give them an inch in UO.....all hell breaks loose.

    As for the exploiters to them its a game of.... "how far can I go without a GM or Dev messing it up..."
    The push the limits of rules and if need be break them to smithereenes.
    This use to be a badge of honor to their fellow rule breakers, and there was not much we as normal players could do.. except catch them at it and hope a slow poke GM would pop in at the right time..
    Oh a great many got banned... but next week they were right back in the game... new account and all... GM's would be called when the hell restarted...

    I shall leave off hackers.. they are bottom feeders and do not need any help in pinning htem down.

    Truth is.. the line of Trammel is getting blurred in this case. the Dev pu in a system that sorta makes it easy for this and I for one wonder if its their way to apease the griping of the"trammie" haters.
    They may be small but a loud group.. they want Fel all over, but forget history.. no one made players move to the Tram side.
    This is fact. I sat back and heard my fellow players say its nice for bigger house's but they would stay in fel... that lasted 6 months.
    One by one they moved to the Tram side as the griefers pushed with thieves and haunting players till they could not stand it.
    Tram got filled by the actions of the same ones who cryed that all their targets left for the "carebear" side.
    The only way you will get a person to go to fel for a house is if its a castle!

    Send a note to Mesanna, explain exactly what is going on. dont drag it out with long speach.. to the point and then let the lady in charge give the verdict.
     
    The Zog historian likes this.
  44. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    trammel has no spirit. where its heart should be you will find a pink marshmellow and nothing more :p


    seeing how the new despise has never been changed in a few years now, thousands of people have paged, the story has 2 sides, and your only screwed if griefers control Both sides, i think its safe to say the Devs intended it as it is, or are at least satisfied with it enough to leave it as is.

    P.S. i love despicable quivers, but the revamped despise "everyone is a tamer" is pretty lame. nice as an idea, let those without a real tamer play one, but its pretty marshmellowy gameplay.
     
    #44 Smoot, May 20, 2014
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
  45. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    It took a long time for rather severe things to get fixed in the past, considering there were more Devs with greater resources. I'd like to think they have no idea what a problem it is, or that they haven't gotten around to it, as with discording blue pets.
     
  46. megster12

    megster12 Visitor

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    I would like for all of you to get together and come on down. While I'm there for some good ole PVP. I will fight all of you guys and gals. I'm going to guess most of you are gals anyway. Mostly you run away screaming I'm telling....


    LONG LIVE ANDROS
    Mr Longtool
     
  47. WootSauce

    WootSauce Lore Keeper
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    I'm yer huckleberry... Shard and time, please.

    Just to put this in perspective, you want to invite people to "PVP" in UO's Pokemon arena (in tram). You truly are one special kid.
     
  48. drcossack

    drcossack Babbling Loonie
    Governor Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    You want to PvP in Despise? That sounds good to me. Care to do it on TC1? I have a rune to Serp's Hold. And a character who's just DYING to kill someone.
     
  49. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I think maybe it's time to call a halt to this one.
     
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