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Two handed weapons vs. one handed + shield: balance needed

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Deception, Feb 25, 2012.

  1. Deception

    Deception Sage
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    There is virtually no reason for a character in today's game to use a two handed weapon. They offer a very small damage bonus, but that does not make up for the loss of shield mods. Characters do not even need the Parry skill to benefit from using a shield.

    I believe either two handed weapons need a boost, or shield mods should be adjusted.

    My suggestions:

    Either-

    A) Scale shield properties with the character's skill in parry. Make is so that if a character has less than 100 parry, he/she does not benefit fully from the mods on the shield. This would ensure that a character is not getting the extra shield benefits without investing anything for them.

    Could use a formula such as this:
    If Parry > 1000, set Parry Skill = 1000
    Adjusted Intensity = (Parry Skill / 1000) * Intensity
    Round Down

    Using a 15 hci, 15 dci, 1 fc shield, you would receive the following mods based on your skill:

    0 parry: 0 hci, 0 dci, 0 fc
    60 parry: 10 hci, 10 dci, 0 fc
    100 parry: 15 hci, 15 dci, 1 fc
    120 parry: 15 hci, 15 dci, 1 fc


    or
    B) Increase the crafting/imbuing caps on two handed weapons.

    I would suggest increasing the imbuing caps of all two handed weapons to 6 properties and 600 weight.

    To compare: 1 handed weapon and 15/15/1 shield: 8 properties, 880 intensity.

    It would still be much lower than what you can achieve using one handed and shield, but it would bridge the gap a bit.



    Please leave comments and suggestions, I want to know what everyone else thinks
     
  2. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
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    if im not mistaken if you have parry and bushido you pretty much never get hit.

    but if you have parry and bushido and you use a shield you are a pin cushion.

    now THAT i could never understand.

    i dont understand why i get penalized for having bushido on my parry guy.

    but ya, i kinda like what your talking about.
     
  3. lupushor

    lupushor Guest

    Make all 2-handed weapons "Balanced" by default (not included in imbu value). People using them could chug pots at will. That would be a twist.
     
  4. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Yep, Poo is right, Parry + Bushido + Shield is actually WORSE than Parry + Bushido + NO Shield.

    I hate the fact that all of the awesome shield mods I've seen since the dungeon/loot revamp started have been useless to me due to this fact, but I'm not sure that I want to ditch Bushido in order to make use of them again.
     
  5. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    They should give parrying with a shield some kind of special abilities depending on shield type. Like some shields parry ranged better, some soak damage based on parry skill... there could be lots of ways to make parry with a shield not inferior to bushido.
     
  6. Conrad

    Conrad Guest

    "i dont understand why i get penalized for having bushido on my parry guy."

    Because you put shield skill on a Samurai--The Samurai used their sword skills to deflect incoming blows but could only do so when in complete control of their sword, where a shield is designed to absorb the blows. That said, because both hands are not free to wield the sword to it's fullest, a shield is a hindrance to the Samurai. Certainly, you cannot fault the Devs for trying to be realistic.

    Besides, the idea is that with Bushido you can do without the shield in favor of a much harder hitting two-hander, without losing the ability to block.....greater damage with no loss in protection. What's to complain about? :thumbsup:

    Hell, some people might want to play a "Monk" template (Macer w/staff, Bushido) and this allows for that--one is a lot more likely to encounter a Monk with a big stick, a monk that is almost impossible to hit, then one carrying a big heater shield.:twak:
     
  7. Deception

    Deception Sage
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    Yeah we all know about the samurai + shield debate. The thing is nowadays most samurai are opting to go without parry. Then they end up using a one handed wep + shield for the extra mods. So instead of "monks" running around with a two handed wep and parry, you get a bunch of samurai running around with shields and not blocking a damn thing. (And definitely not looking like samurai)
     
  8. weins201

    weins201 Certifiable
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    Simple, you arn't taking bushido into considration

    Bushido plus 2 hander = better defense

    :dunce:
     
  9. Deception

    Deception Sage
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    Re: Simple, you arn't taking bushido into considration

    Only if you have parry AND bushido, and even then its a small difference from using a one handed weapon with no shield. We are talking about a 5% parry bonus for a small portion of players. That one advantage of two handed weapons, for a handful of characters, does not make up for the fact that all other players cannot achieve near the same stats from using a two handed weapon compared to a one handed + shield.
     
  10. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Imo, double intensities for two handed weapons via imbuing and add +2-10 more base damage to Most 2 handed melee weapons with higher than 3.5s base speed.

    1 handed + ranged weapons remain as currently 50%/everything
    2 handed (melee only) get a +100% boost to all imbuable properties
    50-100% DI, hitspell,lower D/A etc etc.

    although most weapons need some re-adjusting anyway regardless of it being 2 handed or not

    a Maul & Diamond Mace... both one handed, same primary/secondary specs, but the Diamond Mace has faster base speed and higher base damage.
     
  11. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    Give shields special moves.

    Allow shields to become connected to create a wall.

    Use block for a huge defense without the ability to swing.

    Use push block to push characters back causing them to miss.

    Shield attack, a shield with a sharp or pointy weapon type imbued on it.

    Holy Shield of Protection, Evil Shield of Menacing- Create a small ring of protection around the party.

    Connect moves from shields with parry. If you do not have parry, you cannot use the moves.

    Two handed weapons should give radius depending on length of handle, anywhere from 1 tile to 3 tiles.

    Damage should be increased and the weight of the weapon should determine slight hit chance variance with a spike of damage increase possibility.

    I would add possibly more special moves that would deal with different settings but set direct penalties.

    For example: A 3 tile spear, when in close combat of 1 tile would lose hit chance causing the player to try to maintain the right distance while trying to perhaps stab at their opponent.

    Basing bonuses off of weight makes sense because you can control for example, a long sword to have a chance to hit at 2 tiles and cause extra damage during any combat.

    Smaller weapons could increase the possibility of a special move. For example: A dagger would have a greater chance of poisoning but would not have the damage increase chance because the dagger would be light. Depending on how light a weapon is, it could auto double strike, which would be similar to a damage increase but would also allow for the special to be tried again.
     
  12. Roland'

    Roland' Lore Keeper
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  13. Parnoc

    Parnoc Lore Master
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    Agreed, but add this to the list. Make people that run around with quivers for defense chance have to have archery skill.
     
  14. rareitem

    rareitem Journeyman
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    Some people here are really funny, if you dont understand how Bushido works like it does maybe some reading about system and old issues could help you. This game didnt start yesterday and all your questions were answered years and years agooooo.....
     
  15. Deception

    Deception Sage
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    What part of any post here shows a misunderstanding of the bushido skill?

    But more importantly, this thread is not about bushido. It is about balancing two handed weapons vs. shields. Two hands = two slots, yet two handed weapons have the same properties/intensities as one slot items.

    Just because some characters with bushido use two handed weapons does not mean this is a samurai discussion. However, if you would like to have one, I will be happy to show you how no information about bushido in this discussion has been incorrect.

    Thank you for your most valuable input.
     
  16. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    not this again....
     
  17. 2 handed weps dont need a boost... one handed weps need a nerf.
     
  18. Deception

    Deception Sage
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    It isn't a matter of two handed vs one handed weapons though. It is when the shield comes into play.

    I think the best solution is to eliminate receiving property benefits from shields unless the character has parry. That way you at least need to invest skill points to obtain the extra mods.

    If no change there, then I still believe two handed should be boosted.
     
  19. I agree making shield benifits scale with parry. Any char I run a shield on has parry...
     
  20. Black Majick

    Black Majick Certifiable
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    It has been a long time but way back in the early days...didnt sheilds have a dex penalty and how often you had a chance to parry was determined by your dex/max dex? I could be imagining things..have played alot of non ea servers over the years..so could be one of those I am thinking of.
     
  21. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    I'd say that if you have parry and use a two-handed weapon that you get an automatic scaled DCI/HCI. say 5/5 at 50, 10/10 at 100 and 15/15 at 120. If you want, allow balanced as a special use toggle at 100+ (so it would be a "special attack" on all 2-handed weapons if you have enough parry, but if toggled on no other special is available).

    Or, if we can't have that, I'd be for allowing two-handed weapons to have the same cap, but lower intensities required for the same effect as a one-handed weapon (essentially increasing the cap but not physically doing so.) I tend to think a general hard cap is a good thing (plus there's no confusion when imbuing about what weapons have which caps.) Or allow one "free" effect that is permanent to the weapon when crafted and come up with some 2-handed specials that would fit the slot.

    :popcorn:
     
  22. Noti(Caci)

    Noti(Caci) Guest

    You didnt understand it how bushido with parry works!
    If you have bushido and you use 2 handed waepon parry works 30 percentage.If you have busshido and use one handed waepon with no shild you have 26 percentage parry.If you have bushido and use a shild you have 5 percentage parry.But you have stiLL the 26 percentage parry if you use one handed waepon with no shield.If you use one handed waepon with shild you have 39 percentage parry.That means with shild you have still the most parry if you have parry at 120 and
    use a one handed waepon.
     
  23. lupushor

    lupushor Guest

    Wow, did you bother to read more than the title of the thread?
    Your response if off topic, you should delete it so others won't get misdirected.
    How hard is to understand this topic has nothing to do with bushido, but with simple math?
    two-handed weapon = 500 imbue points.
    one-handed weapon+shield = 950 imbue points.

    950 is so much higher than 500, would you agree?
    This is the only issue adressed here.
     
  24. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Let me put the benefits of running a shield like this-

    On my Sampire, which I still run 120 parry on- I've started using a shield 95% of the time.
     
  25. Deception

    Deception Sage
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    Exactly. The extra mods you get from using a shield + one handed wep is so powerful that you would sacrifice the use of 120 skill points just to get them.

    Balance is needed here folks.
     
  26. Obsidian

    Obsidian UO Forum Moderator
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    I don't get why you think balance is needed. Using a shield is a choice.

    1) If you have parry and bushido you can choose to use a shield and know that your parry chance is capped at 5%, but you have the benefit of shield mods. You also get to use Bushido moves and perfection with your skill point investment. You cannot chug pots.

    2) If you have parry but zero bushido you get the benefits of shield mods and a 30% chance to parry (assuming Dex is 80+). You did not put skill points into bushido and can use them on another skill. You cannot chug pots.

    3) If you have zero parry and zero bushido and use a shield then you have the benefit of shield mods but have a 5% parry chance. You put no skill points into parry or bushido and can put them elsewhere. You cannot chug pots (unless your other hand is empty).

    4) You do not use a shield. You do not get the benefit of shield mods. But you can use a 1H weapon and chug pots, or you can use a 2H weapon. If you have skill points invested into parry and bushido you get a chance to parry blow with your weapon (up to 30% 1H weapon or up to 35% 2H weapon).

    I don't see any problems here. Lots of fair trade-offs. You can choose any skill combinations and equipment you want in the game (race and gender restrictions aside). That is the beauty of the Sandbox that is UO.

    -OBSIDIAN-
     
    Roland Of Gilead likes this.
  27. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    To be fair, you can use a shield and chug pots- it's a pretty simple and quick macro to do so.