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Discussion in 'Darkfall Stratics Forums' started by spAcme, Feb 25, 2009.

  1. spAcme

    spAcme Guest

    Just ugh.

    Aventurine's recent haphazard execution saddens me. Really want a small independent developer to overwhelmingly succeed so the "bean counters" will start funding more innovative projects like Darkfall rather than another regurgitation of a "proven model".

  2. hmm, carfull of choice of words, DF is a regurgitation of UO....

    I see it as, find the one that worked best, and IMPROVE on it, not like what these other companies like mythic and blizzard did.

    But dont get the wrong idea, i agree completely with your point!
  3. Masumatek

    Masumatek Guest

    It will overwhelmingly succeed....within 6 months. Give it some time.
  4. Michael Wolf

    Michael Wolf Guest

    Maybe, it may also fail within 6 months if they don't get their act together real quick.
  5. Rhodar

    Rhodar Guest

    Right, just look at PotBS for an example of how fast the client base will jump ship (pun intended) when it's going poorly.
  6. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    I hope it will, but I doubt it will...

    If I understand the point you're trying to me...
    Not quite.
    Blizzard took the successful ideas of the genre, and compatible genres, and brought them all together in one package. Added polish, and you have a subscriber-base in the millions.
    From that point on, other MMO developers worked from that baseline. Often just using different crayons to colour it in.
  7. Masumatek

    Masumatek Guest

    How many of you have played beta? The game has a lot of problems but even in its current state, it's still imo the best thing out there. And it has the potential to be far better than it is now too.
  8. Michael Wolf

    Michael Wolf Guest

    Um it's current state is not running, not available, can't purchase it, couldn't try it if I wanted to... I'd say that's a far cry from the "best thing out there". It isn't even out there, never mind the best thing out there. Their forums aren't even up at this point.


    I beta tested Darkfall, and from what I have seen, Darkfall is not going to make it. The UI is terrible. The melee combat is horrible. Its bascially like a CS knife fight with stamina limitations. As soon as you run out of stamina, you cant even perform a basic attack. You're bascially screwed if you have to fight more than one person, so the game forces you into groups and guilds. Not to mention that if you have to travel on foot, you're going to have to sprint if you want to move at a half decent speed. And guess what, sprinting eats up stamina like there is no tomorrow, even with high sprinting skill.

    Then there is the camera view. First person all the time, unless you draw a melee weapon. That is lame as hell. Oh, but, the camera is toggleable if youre on a mount or driving one of their WoWish seige engines. Now, how the hell does that make any sense at all? You can toggle the view if youre driving a warhulk, but not if youre on foot? Thats just stupid, plain and simple.

    Ranged attackers rule everything in Darkfall, I can tell you that now. A Melee fighter is screwed if they have to fight against ranged attackers. All you have to do is kite the melee until they run out of stamina then just beat them down with arrows or spells.

    And then there are the time sinks. You spend more time running from place to place because A.) Mounts are wicked expensive, B.) travel on foot is painfully slow, and C.) Magical teleportation is extrememly limited and expensive, than anything else. The casual player wont get much done.

    the crafting is good, that is if you can get the money to buy the crafting tools and the skill to harvest the resources. Everything in the game is expensive. They went overboard with the gold sinks, especially considering they start you off with absolutly no money what so ever.

    Bottom line, Darkfall is good concept, very poor execution. The Aventurine devs went into Darkfall with a Quake mind-set, not an MMORPG, and it shows in a negative way. My prediction, Darkfall is dead within 6 months or less. All of those fanbois who are expecting a UOesque experience, prepare for a massive dissapointment. Its a cold, empty, ingame world that lacks the personality and heart UO once had.
  10. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    People said the same thing about AoC, and about every MMO out there.
    Fact is that different things work for different people. One man's trash is another man's treasure.
    Similarly, people are going to have different tolerances. Like your hard core UO vets, who wouldn't quit until EA booted them out the door, and your MMO butterflies, who flutter from MMO to MMO, and never settle one anything beyond the initial sparkle (and when their favourite class first gets included in a balance pass).
    Darkfall could be the closest thing to distilled awesome for you, but a single person's thoughts and opinions mean very little overall. What matters most, is the ability for the game to retain subscribers. Since the game's targetting a pretty well uncatered for portion of MMO players... We'll see...

    I've read persuasive arguments for why it won't succeed, while most of the arguements for its success have been centered on the greatness of a play style that is generally neglected.
  11. Masumatek

    Masumatek Guest

    "Fact is that different things work for different people."

    Yep. I disagree with much of what "correctuo" says. It does have major problems, but it's still a very fun game and YES, imo it's the best out there. That might not mean much since most games out there are crap, but it's better than all the crap and given time it will be a great game.
  12. K'torr

    K'torr Guest

    I'll probably regret this, but I have to agree with Mas. DF has its bugs. It has some AI problems. And just about everything from the pre-orders to the launch seems to have been screwed up.

    I was only in beta for 3 weeks, but even in that short time, the potential of this game is obvious. They just need a bit of time to polish things up and smooth out the bumps.
  13. rcole23

    rcole23 Guest

    What some positive results on designed stress tests saddens you ? :sad4:

    What do you think is going to happen in the first few days of unproven hardware and software? You go do something for the first time perfect and then let me know.

    Avurtine is doing awsome. Look at the big wigs? NO one launches perfect software. The business model of software is to let the public test it for you. This is as good a launch that I have seen or better than most software publishers to date.

    Keep it up Avurtine!
  14. rcole23

    rcole23 Guest

    Yes they are I read the update every morning
  15. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    That's what Beta's for...
    Once you get people in, who are paying, they are not your guinea pigs.
  16. rcole23

    rcole23 Guest

    Wanna bet?

    Do a driver upgrade latley?

    Update a bios?

    How did Dos, windows 3.1, windows 98, windows me, windows 2000, windows 2003, windows xp home, windows xp pro, windows vista (x flavours) work out for you? Never apply a patch or update any of them?

    ever update firmware on any device?

    Ever update spyware programs or firewalls?

    Ever get a program that just won't work?

    ever get a BSOD or windows error and hit that "send to microsoft" button?

    Dream on buddy. The public which pays for all things IT related find our bugs.

    Software is not launched perfect.

    Beta is stress testing of a alpha product. Launch is the step in which the game is playable, not guarenteed bug free. All software products ALL OF THEM, follow the same methodolgy.
  17. Michael Wolf

    Michael Wolf Guest

    They weren't at the time I posted that, which was a day past the scheduled release, the servers hadn't come up yet. They are down again. We still can't purchase it. It's now 2 1/2 days past scheduled release.

    now the message on the boards is

  18. rcole23

    rcole23 Guest

    Well they were at the time I read it, and I don't need a quote. :spider:
  19. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    Sure, but I don't pay a subscription for those things.

    As someone said in IRC...
    "For $50 you have a 50% chance of getting online where you have a 5% chance of being where your client thinks you are."
    Maybe the numbers aren't entirely true, but the sync issues that prompted the 5% number should have been caught in beta.
    The problems with the bindstone should have been anticipated, or discovered in beta.
    They skipped out the open beta phase, which would have found most of these problems you guys are paying to find for them.
  20. spade gt

    spade gt Guest

    I've read several of your posts in this forum over the past few days and I think you had unrealistic expectations for the DF launch. Before I continue, though, I would ask you to provide two examples of a flawless MMO launch. I'll list some of my MMO launch experiences:

    - I know that when UO:Third Dawn was released there were terrible connection issues for days.
    - I know that when Trammel was opened up for housing it was one of the laggiest online gaming experiences I've ever had, with countless disconnects as well.
    - I know that when Star Wars Galaxies released not a single person could get online during the first 24hrs of the game's launch, and there were numerous server problems after that.
    - I know that Vanguard had a rocky launch with numerous server crashes, disconnects, and bugs.
    - I know that when Tabula Rasa released it had so many bugs that a large number of players abandoned the game soon after launch. The game is now canceled.
    - I know that Age of Conan released with so many bugs it suffered the same type of player desertion as TR. The game isn't even a year old and the price has already dropped to $19.99 on the company's own web site.
    - I know that when Blizzard released Patch 3.0.2 there were so many crashing, lag, and disconnect issues that they had to start handing out free server transfers like candy. I remember there were several days where I couldn't connect to my server at all, and if I did manage to connect I had to wait in queue for an hour to do so.

    Do you see a trend there? Every one of those MMOs had the funding of a big box publisher behind it - EA, SOE, NCSoft, Funcom, Blizzard. If all of those games - released by experienced and professional game developers/publishers - had rocky launches, how in the world can you expect a first-time developer/publisher to have a smooth launch? I say again - your expectations were quite unrealistic.

    How bout you go build a car from scratch and tell us how nicely it runs when you first start it up? You've driven a car all your life and you may have even done repair work/upgrades to your vehicle yourself, but that sure as hell doesn't mean you'll put together a flawless vehicle the first time you try.

    I beta tested Darkfall, and I plan on playing it even before it's released in North America, but I've purposely decided to wait a bit before I even try to buy the game. I knew the launch was going to be rocky, and I knew a bunch of forum complainers were going to cream their pants over the opportunity to ***** about a "failed launch". Tasos stated that they would open up sales of the game in waves, so that they could upgrade their server capacity in as controlled a manner as possible. People are in the game playing right now. Don't be all pissy just because you're not one of them yet. The game will still be there when you get your copy.

    No company launches MMOs perfectly, especially on the first try. Once you realize that you can start deciding whether or not Darkfall is the game for you.
  21. Michael Wolf

    Michael Wolf Guest

    First of all, if you read my posts I never said I've seen a flawless launch, in fact I have stated that I expected and have always seen some problems during a launch of every game I have beta tested. What I said is I have never seen a launch that was this bad. Not even close to this bad. I beta tested and played Auto Assault until it closed, a game that had one of the worst launches in MMO history, so bad it never recovered from the displeased players and ended up closing down in a little over a year. But as horrible as that launch was, at least everyone who wanted to was playing the game on launch day, buggy or not.

    I have also said I would wait until this game makes it long enough to open some US servers. If it is stable and people still like by then I might reconsider and try it then.
  22. Conrad

    Conrad Guest

    "No company launches MMOs perfectly, especially on the first try. Once you realize that you can start deciding whether or not Darkfall is the game for you."

    The problem with this statement is that it omits one very important factor.

    Aventurine had EVERY opportunity to NOT make the same mistakes as all the other MMOs out there.

    I don't care if they are new to this. They repeated EVERY mistake other MMOs have made in the past. Why? There is simply no excuse, short of incompetence.

    They were so sheltered from the rest of the world, so wrapped up in their own little world, that they ignored what was going on around them.


    Ultima Online. One of the biggest flaws with UO was the emphasis on CLIENT-side structure. This allowed players to use pretty much any 3rd party application they wanted to do pretty much anything in the game, primarily AFK macroing. This led to a totally screwed up economy that could never really be fixed.

    Aventurine put the exact same emphasis in DFO.

    Shadowbane. Lack of sufficient Beta testing. SB released with no apparent beta testing and the result was an incredibly buggy game. So much so that they could never really fix the game once it was live without doing server wipes and complete code rewrites, something that would have alienated the remaining players they had.

    Aventurine did beta testing, but not REALISTIC testing. They NEVER stress tested a server with a realistic amount of players and the result is a server that cannot handle even a small portion of what they claimed it would.

    Vanguard. Released before it was ready, without the content they promised.

    Not really going to go any further on this. Aventurine has released a game that is missing a HUGE portion of the features they promised (and still have on their never-updated website).

    I could go on and on.

    They basically made ALL the same mistakes that other MMOs made in the past, when they had every opportunity to learn from the mistakes of others, all at no cost to themselves. NOW, it is going to cost them a LOT of time and money to fix all this garbage, not to mention the frustration factor of the players they are taking for a ride.

    They have had EIGHT years to learn from others on what NOT to do, yet did exactly the same as the others have.

    To those that say "They are new to this..", I say "What the heck they been doing for the last eight years?"

    Ultima Online was a bit of a mess when it released, but NOBODY had made a game like that before. These guys do NOT have that excuse. The basic mechanics of any MMO are the same. These guys seem to have completely ignored the ups, and more importantly, the DOWNS of everyone before them.

    Maybe they can fix it all, but who the hell gave these guys, and every other MMO in the past, the idea that it is "ok" to sell a product that DOESN'T work? I was truly hoping these guys would break that flawed mold, but they seem to have REGRESSED right back to what MMO developers were doing back in 1996.
  23. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    I beta tested and pre ordered DFO and I love it. In uo reds would always own me and In DFO with the actua; player skilled combat I am owning reds 3 out of 3 encounters!

    I am tryuly shocked the stratics mod community is not all over this title as It Is what they have been looking for for years!

    We all know how launch days go on game and even the weeks post launch for any game. Add in the self actualization of this small group of devs and you have your self a very very dedicated and professional team. Think about it. If any 11 mythic tryed to launch a game ON THEIR OWN where would they be in this time frame. Ya back in moms basement with out a laptop!.

    Anyhow in beta they pulled servers down a lot to fix the main glitch we had on launch day(day2 really) which was player synchronization. I am guessing that there are different ISP-->packet ratios coming in all the time and eveery one was not anticipated. Give these devs some time and they do have a gamers outlook. They did start out as gamers and built a game engine off pure ingenuity instead of a corp wallet!

    A gamers dream come true!

    As you can tell from my post count(not a lunitic) I have been in the comunity here on stratics for a long time. I would love to see you guys pick up the ball for these young upstarts and suport them instead handing them their asses every chance you get!
  24. jelinidas

    jelinidas Guest

    I have a TRS-80 and a Apple II+ in my basement. That alone would double capacity of what we have now!

    It is Aventurine's total lack of communication and their almighty attitude that got it to this point. Now they live in it.

    Lets see if they can learn from it and climb out of it. Personally, I think the hit is to big. Most of my guildies/friends have washed their hands of DF.