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[Discussion] Undercutting Sellers....

Discussion in 'UO Rares Collector' started by Nemesis, Jul 23, 2015.

  1. Nemesis

    Nemesis Seasoned Veteran

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    How do you all feel about it? Just watching the pricing sporadically change on the Atlantic drop within the last 15 minutes, someone starting at 300, then someone at 200, then another person dropping to 150....

    Just amazing to watch. :D
     
    #1 Nemesis, Jul 23, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2015
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  2. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Sigh. I know.
     
  3. Alexander of ATL.

    Alexander of ATL. Rares Fest Host | Atl June 2013
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    The person you are referring to is me, and I will publicly admit that.

    The process your asking about is in regards of this:

    Ever since the new drop system, pricing on items have been very difficult to determine.

    I'm not someone to sit on an item I do not wish to keep in my collection. I will sell it for whatever price I can get. Is that rude? Not really. With this drop system, you are going to have MANY that are for sale. I don't want to keep this item and wait to get 300M when it's not worth that.

    Lets look at the facts:

    8 are for sale on stratics
    10 are on atlantic vendor search

    I am NOT going to sit and waste my time to try and get 300M. The market is flooded with the item because more people got it that wish to sell instead of keep.

    If you don't like me doing this, I don't know what to tell you.

    My reasoning:

    I initially though this was a 300M item, but after refreshing the page to find 4 for sale, then I dropped it to 200. After refreshing and seeing 8, I dropped it to 150..... because the economic level for Event Rares is at a constant rate. It's more beneficial for people buying the item than for those selling.

    Call it undercutting or call it business. I'm not going to sit and wait 6 months to get 300M when I can get together with the economic base and sell it for what it is worth - which is 150M.

    If you don't like it, I am sorry, but there is nothing I can do.

    :)
     
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  4. Peekay

    Peekay Slightly Crazed

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    Drop isn't a terrible one, I don't believe it had a second function though. Neat graphic however. To me it'd be worth like 175, that's just how I'd price it. People just jump the gun on drops and honestly you can pickup some really good buys on the quick sellers like that, then flip the item a couple weeks later for a bit of a profit.

    Undercuts are going to happen, regardless of how people feel about it. Some people want quick gold, others want to stick it to their rivals. Sometimes it's just the buyer who haggled the seller. *shrugs*

    You honestly cannot expect to get "top dollar" for something in this current market by instant selling an item. As it gets sold quickly, the desire for it will increase in a few weeks or months, which will give you a window to ask for a higher price.
     
  5. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    Really good post.
     
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  6. Manticore

    Manticore Babbling Loonie
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    some see as undercutting while other sees at anti-price-gauging?
     
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  7. Alexander of ATL.

    Alexander of ATL. Rares Fest Host | Atl June 2013
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    Very well said.
    The demand is lower than the output.

    21 Of these dropped and maybe only around half want to keep theirs.
    Supply and demand.

    If an item doesn't go with my collection, I am going to sell it. I don't care what price I get, I just want it sold. So yes, I want a quick sell. I have had SO MUCH bad luck in the past regarding keeping an item for later in hopes to get more for it. It has proven to bite me in the butt because the market wasn't with the time..
     
  8. Spock's Beard

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    In my experience it's quite often noobs who have never had money and for whom anything over 100m basically sounds like infinite gold. They get a drop and want to be rich NOW. And there's nothing wrong with that. They get a big pile of gold into their hot little hands ASAP, the buyer gets a nice deal, and the economy trucks along.

    Stuff is worth what it's worth, and what it's worth is what people will pay for it.
     
  9. Longtooths

    Longtooths Supreme Commander
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    Supply and demand in an open market.

    On a side note, So long as you have multiple boss, people are going to get stupid amounts of them. There were some people that got 3 and 4 of this item......
     
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  10. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    If you want to have a economics discussion in the rares forum, keep in mind Milk (and many other U.S. foods) Supply is so high that the price farmers can sell it for is actually below what it costs to produce. So the government buys it and just destroys it or puts it into trash products like animal feed. truth. point is, the supply / demand scenerio only goes so far.
     
    #10 Smoot, Jul 23, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2015
  11. Spock's Beard

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    There were 3 bosses with 7 each.
     
  12. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Right but people got multiples, so even if they DID want to keep one they had spares to sell.
     
  13. Jason-

    Jason- Slightly Crazed

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    There were absolutely more than 21 of these. If there are only 21 then every person that got it is selling theirs. There were tons of ppl in gen chat saying they got multiples. Bennu said "I dont know...I asked for 21 thats all I can say" which is a common comment...but it leaves it open for there to have been more dropped by accident or whatever. With soooo many people selling them I just have a hard time believing that there were only 21.
     
  14. Longtooths

    Longtooths Supreme Commander
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    Are you ok smoot?...seriously, if you don't get help with charter, get help somewhere please.
     
  15. The Real Deal

    The Real Deal Slightly Crazed
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    All I know is that bacon taste great on a burger!!!

    :thumbsup::thumbup1::thumbsup::thumbup1::thumbsup::thumbup1:
     
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  16. Zandor

    Zandor Sage

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    I had looting rights on all 3 and I didn't get one.
    Now to stick up for Alex:

    I can only speak for this instance but this item was sold based on pricing of what people were selling them for after the drop in general chat. Granted he did sell a little lower but that is because:
    A) He knows I'm broke
    B) he knows I collect crystal stuff
    C) I am a return customer and have another deal in the works for a different item
    D) what he lost here will surely come back for helping out a good buyer.

    I don't see what the big deal is. I guess maybe nobody should sell anything until a group of you get together an set prices kinda like OPEC?
     
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  17. Decadence

    Decadence Lore Keeper
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    There are like 5 of them sitting on vendors! --Stop picking on Alex, supply demand, free market and all that ^_^,Pick a price you'd be happy with getting for your item... it might sit on the market if you aren't willing to lower it, so just wait it out until you are happy with the sale, if you need the gold badly, well you might end up selling it for lower. Alex is happy to part with it for lower--so that is what he did. End of ^_^
     
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  18. BrianFreud

    BrianFreud Lead Wiki Mod & Doer of Crazy Things
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    Personally, I have no interest - all these "gold" items are ugly imho. As for "price-gouging", all you're really seeing is a reverse auction - all the sellers are posting, and buyers then just pick whoever is cheapest. Some folks might buy speculatively, hoping the price will go up, others can't wait to unload the item for some amount of profit.

    If anyone's ever played Runescape, it seems really familiar to what is a common practice of gold-making over there.
     
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  19. Nails Warstein

    Nails Warstein Rares Festival Silent Auctioneer
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    Otto Biederman, known as Otto "Abbadabba" Berman, was an accountant for American organized crime. He is known for coining the phrase "Nothing personal, it's just business."

    Too many times for reasons I will never understand, people place unreasonable expectations on other players without attempting to privately communicate with them personally to resolve any misgivings there might be. Minor issues become major ones. I don't know what cowardly instinct flight response that prevents people from respectfully engaging in meaningful dialogue with each other. The fight response in some would rather obfuscate the public, subvert the targeted player's good intentions, and besmirch their character with unfounded rumors about them. This pointless drama has happen to me personally, and I have seen it happen to others. While some do this out of paranoia, I am nearly certain others do this with the specific intent to do harm in order to benefit themselves. In this regard, it is a dirty business tactic. However what they fail to recognize that by engaging in this type of malicious intrigue, they are not making a business decision, but a personal one. Real people could get hurt at a sensitive time in their life. Its no different than cyber bullying, and for that matter immature.

    There is plenty of different ways to play UO, selling items is just one of many if you enjoy making a good little business for yourself to help you afford the UO items you want. Just whatever you do, don't take it so personally. If someone can't emotionally handle the free market economy UO provides, I recommend crafting. Be respectful, be tolerant, be well, be kind, and by all means don't reciprocate bad behavior with more bad behavior. They aren't worth your time.
     
    #19 Nails Warstein, Jul 24, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2015
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  20. Nemesis

    Nemesis Seasoned Veteran

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    People take things really personal around here. This topic was meant as a discussion point, not a personal attack.

    I noticed something drastic and thought it should be put out in the open. This is s forum for discussion....no?

    Now, I suppose if someone has the need or feeling that they should defend their logic and/or reasoning behind what they are doing, that is their own prerogative.
     
  21. 4runnersport

    4runnersport Seasoned Veteran
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    I only got 4 :(.

    Or maybe old vets post about the drop system changing without the public knowing is true?
     
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  22. Longtooths

    Longtooths Supreme Commander
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    I got the big goose egg. Zero
     
  23. SoBad

    SoBad Seasoned Veteran

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    @Nemesis this can be looked at mostly positively.

    Positive:
    Take for example a product that I sell. I sell for a price "X" lets say. The market allows for this price and I sell quite consistently. Now others come in and undercut me. If the undercut is slightly lower than me I do not bother or I slightly undercut them to sell in the interim.

    The other course is if they undercut me by a substantial amount. I go ahead and buy the product they are selling and resell. I still turn a profit even if the profit margin is a bit lower. The market as I said sustains my markup, I just eliminate the competition but also turn a slight profit on their shoulders. (This is done everyday in the real world. There are 3 prices "at cost" then the wholesale price then there is the retail price.)

    The trick is to ensure the resale keeps turning a profit.

    *The only way I see this as negative is wanting to turn maximum profit for little to no work. I am not saying this is bad, it is actually ideal for all sellers to get the maximum profit for goods. The negative is that going about it like this is setting yourself up for failure/heart ache when the item sits on a vendor for x amount of days eating up a fee. Or posting it in the forums and a war ensues with a rival or someone trying to get you to price cut anyway.

    Best is to let the market flow as it does. Steer away from price gaugers and above all else enjoy the game.... for it is just a game.
     
  24. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    In regards to undercutting, what you have now is a larger participation of event goers due to the incredibly easy way of attaining drops. No one has to spend a lot of gold to build up toons in order to get a drop. With the increase of attendees you now have people that will strictly sell every drop to fund other habits. I have always sold every drop because I enjoy pvp and spend all of my gold on building pvp toons. With this happening the prices are going to tank and you are left with a choice just as Peekay stated, Sell quick and cheap or sit on it and hope to get more.

    In our vent we got 13 total, some people got multiple drops on the same toon. Being on Atl, I am sure there were trolls throwing out prices to gauge the market in gen chat, but what I would be interested in knowing is how many total did the other large group of event goers get. @Promathia how many total did you guys get in your vent?

    I am fairly confident that more than 21 dropped seeing how my vent alone pulled over half of the supposed total, and that never happens. It only makes me feel more confident that the drops have been changed again. You can read more about it in this thread I started in hopes of trying to get an answer from @Mesanna. http://stratics.com/threads/em-new-drop-rates-myth-or-fact.345443/
     
  25. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    thing is, you cant really do this with rares. id say over 50 percent of sales go on behind the scenes, no stratics, no vendor. Also with the amount of gold involved, you would have to on average spend upwards of 50billion gold a month to successfully "buyout" even the majority of undercutting.

    Events are fun anyway, if i dont like what something is selling for i just keep it.

    You also have to admit, the undercutting started with a particular guild that got huge numbers of drops, purely for sale as most that guild have no interest in collecting, while also the event system change led to higher amounts of characters which equals more drops.

    Now, the original undercutters are being undercut. drop numbers getting even higher, and less rare collectors out there seeking to buy.

    Fact of the matter is, I collect rares. I put tons of time into events. I dont have the advantage of multibox programs like some people. If im selling something, something that will never ever spawn again, ill sell it for a price thats at least decent or hold onto it. If i have absolutely no interest in the item, yes ill sell for very cheap price (but also not outright undercut my freinds just to make a quick sale or devalue a really good rare)

    Fact: This item would have been worth 600 - 900 m two years ago. its worth like 100m now. Take that for what you will, decline of collecting, state of the game, undercutting and manipulating the casual system that we've had for the last year now, as well as high access to shard shields is also of course part of it.

    Fact: People will keep doing events as long as their enjoyable. If all some cares about is the price of an item, they will simply not attend the events anymore.

    Fact: cheaper prices hopefully will get more people into rares and collecting


    UO rares are just like any collectable in real life. Some will just hold value, some will go up, some will go down. I use the same selling principles selling UO rares as my real life collection of antique bottles. Its a personal judgement what is a "good" rare that will hold or gain value when the undercutting fades away. If someone wants to undercut, sell themselves short on one of the the better rares, so be it. Its a personal judgement we all have to decide for ourselves.

    One last point, if something looks cheap, it probably is. Ive bought jewels, armor, rares, at as low as 5% of what they generally sell for. Do i expect this everytime? or expect to get that same price the next time im looking for a similar item. No. so buy up those cheap rares people while there still cheap and happy rares collecting ;)
     
    #25 Smoot, Jul 24, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2015
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  26. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    ~10 If I remember correctly.
     
  27. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    Well, that makes a total of 23 that is confirmed. That is 2 over the "requested" amount from bennu. Now taking that into account along with Napa Valley dropping well over it's amount. I would safely say that not only has there been insider info passed to an individual but it accurately reflects the current EM drop rate.

    Pretty cool knowing that certain players can talk freely and openly with people entrusted with certain "privileges"...
     
  28. StealYourFace

    StealYourFace Journeyman

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    You can add 2 more to that total. Me and another guy in vent got one.
     
  29. Lord Arm

    Lord Arm Seasoned Veteran

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    I can't complain about people charging a lower price/undercutting. I can only complain about cheating and all the multi-char use lol. have fun
     
  30. Jason-

    Jason- Slightly Crazed

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    I got one and bought one off someone I didnt know...so add 2 more to the total. But I have to disagree on the Napa thing. I was in that line and I cant say that it was a lot over. If it was over then it was barley over. There were people in the line that were trying to trick the EM and there was also people in the line that got a artifact drop from the boss and thought that was the drop. Taking those people out of the line I believe that it may have been the correct amount. Just my observation and I could be 100% wrong and wouldn't be surprised. I just don't feel like that was clear cut enough to count it as a for sure thing.
     
  31. Deaol

    Deaol Certifiable
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    I miss the good old days, you've all ruined it. lol
     
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  32. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    More and more items every week...market already flooded..alas less people each month...

    common sense for price drops....to try sell....aka real life...
     
  33. Nemesis

    Nemesis Seasoned Veteran

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    I asked how you all felt about this - but never shared my sentiment....

    Plain and simple - this game is a player-driven economy. Sellers are going to sell for the most optimal price given the situation and given the buyer's market, and buyers are going to pay what they are willing to pay based on overall desire.

    I have been on both end of the spectrum - I've definitely overpaid for items based on "market value" - i.e - I bought an Icy Wavy for 1.2 billion, which is way over priced - and I openly know it - however, no one was selling it at the time after asking for a couple of weeks, and I wanted it ASAP to complete a house design.

    I've sold items in the same instance - not that I was even looking to sell the item, but someone really wanted it and paid and obnoxious premium.

    So, there is no harm and no foul - people have been doing this for a long time on just regular commodities in the game - i.e - 60k iron ingots in Luna would get re-priced to be the lowest when checking on all the available supplies.

    The whole purpose was to get opinion. It is slightly different with the rare market, due to the overall perceived valuation of items. I've also noticed the overall value of items have changed dramatically. Someone mentioned before that this item would have went for 500+ mil back in the day (and I look at the item based on the name, hue, size, etc. and would still value it similar, although the buyer's market wouldn't dictate such a thing) -- curious to see what has become of the pricing of items, especially rares.

    Are items just not worth what they once were worth? Has the overall "value" of gold changed that much? At least for the people that "sell" gold, it looks like the value is roughly the same, it's just what items are selling for these days.

    Have a nice weekend. :D
     
  34. BrianFreud

    BrianFreud Lead Wiki Mod & Doer of Crazy Things
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    As for sale price, strictly talking about gold, I think prices are settling back towards 2012. 2013-2014 saw prices shoot up like crazy. Now, several large collectors have stopped collecting, telling me they were fed up by prices and drama, and for the majority of items, supply is exceeding demand, at least at those same sky-high 2014 prices.
     
  35. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    if your talking about prices from 2012, keep in mind gold value has gone down about 35% since then.
     
  36. Jason-

    Jason- Slightly Crazed

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    I know that the years I spent a part of the PVP community...we would see a major decline in players during the summer. People were just busy or doing other things for fun. The winter was always the opposite. So does that happen around here? Is there a decrease in player activity during the summer? Less people playing would mean less people buying. But still the same amount of drops. Maybe that explains some of it.
     
  37. 4runnersport

    4runnersport Seasoned Veteran
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    This prolly would have went for 500m back in the day. The reason for that is bc until the top damager was removed the same few people pulled 90% of all drops on every shard so they set the prices. Now you have new people able to get the drop so more people get drops now and are willing to sell lower while at the same time a few people that were pulling 90% of drops under the old system are pulling anywhere from 1-2 and up well more than that at every event so some of them don't mind selling cheap either bc they have so many to sell to make the same or more than they did before controlling the market. All in all the new system is better imo for everyone except a small % of the ones that were in the top damage drops back in the day that don't have the accounts and characters to make up for the price drop. If you see someone complaining about the drops now its most likely those people (other than people lagging out bc of so many toons now)
     
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