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UO Philosophy

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Black Sun, Nov 16, 2008.

  1. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
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    While trick or treating I got to thinking,

    If nobody is hunting in a dungeon, is it still full of monsters?
     
  2. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    I think a better question is ... if nobody's in a dungeon, does it even exist? :)
     
  3. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    Yes, although their AI is inactive :p
     
  4. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
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    Dude, You just blew my mind. That's deep.
    *stares vacantly off into space*
     
  5. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    :)

    (It's actually an interesting topic - I've noticed that the game only seems to process AI in a screen or two radius around characters ... I suspect the rest of the game is in suspended animation when we're not around)
     
  6. DevilsOwn

    DevilsOwn Stratics Legend
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    but..... but... upon entering Brit last nite, I see no other players about.... cross the bridge and there by the side of a building are four dragons befuddled by the walls which shield the citizens inside (or, which shields the dragons from the citizens, not sure which way it was goin' there).... point is, they were very intent, and if it was my intervention which triggered activity would not they have targeted me instead of the people on the other side of the walls?

    besides, I like to think it all goes on without me :lick:
     
  7. BardMal

    BardMal Guest

    Does this thread exist if no one is on Stratics?
     
  8. Norrar

    Norrar Lore Master
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    wait....they have AI?!?!
     
  9. Sunrise

    Sunrise Guest

    WoW..This is going to keep me up at night.... :D
     
  10. WizzaX

    WizzaX Journeyman
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    I wonder if the ophidians still invade the teth. keep,
    and still fight each other while no one is there.

    hmmmmmm......
     
  11. Haris

    Haris Guest

    Where do you get that ai dissabled from. The world goes on all the time. Doesnt mather if any player is there or not. Uo is not wow.
     
  12. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    The obvious question is, how do you know that the AI isn't suspended?
    You can only directly observe it, when it's active, since your presence makes it active.

    However, you can observe the absence of active AI in your vicinity, and the inactivity of distant AI.
    If you are in such a position, and someone runs past you, coming close enough to "wake" animal AI, then the animals will become active, and if they move towards you, you get "you see: a raven" or what have you.
    It's also logical, to reduce server load.
    And, to counter issues with the original designs for UO ;)
     
  13. Jaimes

    Jaimes Guest

    I think what he/she means is that the monsters just stand there when no one is around.
     
  14. Sunrise

    Sunrise Guest


    My lady you do bring up a good point..But I have to counter it, sorry. Plz dont ban me :p LoL


    You say since your presence maks it active. My question is this. What if you are hidding and just idling in a spot? Technically the monsters or animals can't see you. so they should not be moving after a bit correct? :D

    As for someone walking by you...if you are hidden..and not in fel or Seige, they will never know you are even there... :D

    Now as for spending many times working off counts and just idling in the woods.. The animals move around.. But then again that could be a computer program doing it too. There is a player there even if they are hidding so this and that has to move..

    But if no players are around..either alive, dead or hidding...does the animals/monsters move...I don't know...

    Wanders off to find more ale...and to help clear up these thoughts going thru this head.
     
  15. Haris

    Haris Guest

    You can notice that ai is not suspended by seing incrased visitors to your house while you are not even loged on. And no way i had over 600 visitors all being players in 1 months time. One when i was crafting things in my house for 5 hours nobody came. So on avrage i could imagine it being about 2-4 player visitors each day to my house. Would not come up to 600. That means npcs are alive and enter your house even if you are not around.

    Only thing that has changed to imporve old game mechanics is your client not picking up all info on item like it used to. That can be noticed by itemproperties display delay. Before that was fixed you used to get huge lag spike before coming near a house full of item. Your client allso no longer picks up items in players or vendors inventory before you get to open it. Same goes for loot on npc, it gets created when you kill the npc. But npc do not just stand there.
     
  16. ZippyTwitch

    ZippyTwitch Lore Keeper
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    It is suspended. I know this as Many a time I've tried to recall to my fel keep only for the rune to be blocked for up to ten minutes at a time. So I run there. Now I live real close to a server line. So right when I cross the line and hit my front yard. The animal or wandering healer starts moving from my recall spot.
     
  17. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    More than just movement. If they have hostility to other creatures in the area (good/evil or Terathan/Ophidian for example), they don't fight.
    If absolutely nothing else, it would be a waste of resources. Especially considering the specifications of computers, back in the days UO was developed.

    To clarify, also. The server knows you're there, regardless of if you're hidden or dead, or anything else.
    So, a hidden player triggers the AI the same as any other logged in player (although, it could be simply the presence of a player character, although it's harder to test whether that's the case). In any case, the server knows (it has the best hacks).
     
  18. Nok

    Nok Lore Master
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    My last neuron just burst. :blushing:
     
  19. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I have noticed this as well.

    As Kiminality says, if you are hidden/stealthed, the server definitely knows a player in in the vincinity and the monsters move. But if you go check out areas where people seldom goes, then leave and come back hours later (Terran keep), I have noticed pretty often that the exact same monsters stand in the exact same position when I left, or maybe a couple of tiles away. Could be explained by a 5 min delay after last player leaves before pausing the processing for that area.

    I have pondered on this as well, came up with the conclusion that is indeed what happens and promptly forget about it :)
     
  20. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Do you log off from real life when I see you in Ultima?
    Is it because you character logged in in real life when I see you on the street..?
    How do I know all of you don't simply shut down like the AI when you log off..?

    If we're going to dive head-first into Pixel Philosophy, we might as well go too far with it.
     
  21. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    I think this even applies to pets. I've left them in quite dangerous areas before, but so long as I'm not around they don't ever seem to die.

    The KR client lets you zoom the view quite far out. If the trigger zone is a couple of "standard" screens, reckon it'd be possible to observe "static" NPCs that way?
     
  22. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    Actually no, although you can zoom out to see more of the map, it does not actually increase your line of sight range - the critters are invisible until they're within the traditional range.
     
  23. uoBuoY

    uoBuoY Guest

    If a Dragon roars in Destard and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?

    But seriously, there is a way to test this...

    Requires 2 chars at the Twisted Wield.
    1st char stands just outside the entrance casting Reveal, making sure no one enters.
    2nd char ensures Twisted Wield is empty of players.
    Every 5 minutes 2nd char checks for Changling corpses. Probably 2nd char should leave very slowly to ensure that 2nd char didn't lure a Changling into the Pixies!
    If there's just 1 corpse, then we can conclude there is activity even when you're not there.
     
  24. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    Reveal can't reveal other players in Trammel ruleset.
    Also, I'm not certain of the range, or the exact mechanics. If there's another area on the same subserver, close to the Twisted Wield, then a player in there could trigger the AI.

    It would probably be easier to test with server boundaries.
     
  25. OldAsTheHills

    OldAsTheHills Lore Master
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    This program is event driven...so when you do more on your screen then
    more events occur. The dungeons go into idle timer mode in your absence.
    In other words just spawning occurs followed by random movement.
    Yes, it seems reasonable that opposed monsters will just stand there until
    you show up. They have their thread in wait mode.
    But, wait mode is never forever. Timers do trigger events.
    How else can stuff decay on ground or IDOC's fall.
    It is not an open ended simulation with a monster existing until killed, in fact
    once the monster's timer triggers the monster respawns else where
    ... Spawning is a repeating event.
    The instanced dungeon are never there until you trigger them into existence
    by an entering event, such as dropping keys. If you want more action you
    must do more actions.

    *stares*
    Yahaxithonix
     
  26. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    There are actually no instanced areas in UO.

    This was stated by a Dev, some time 2-3 years ago, near as I can figure it.
    Not only did they state that there were no instances, but that there was no intention of adding instances. In fact, I recall a strong aversion to the idea.

    A shame, really.
    I wonder whether the decision was down to design preferences, or the difficulty of implementing instances into the UO code.
    Either way, I think instances better support the current MMO climate.
     
  27. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    In KR, if you open the map and zoom way out, you can see where the dungeons are stored on the "big map". The way these currently work, I'm pretty sure true instanced dungeons aren't possible without major re-engineering of the way UO's game maps work.
     
  28. RedRum

    RedRum Sage
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    Does this mean that if a monster happens to stand on my recall spot, and no one is around, that he will continue to stand there and I will never get home again, unless I run there and either kill the monster or he moves because I am there and "activate" him (brings back "Wonder Twins Powers Activate...form of a bucket of water, form of a condor" lol).
    I don't think it works this way...I've tried recalling into my house, couldn't due to spawn on my recall spot (I have a castle in Trini Swamp...LOTS of spawn) waited less than 2 minutes, and recalled home. I think the spawn moves around the whole time even when no one is around to "activate" the "AI".
     
  29. gunneroforgin

    gunneroforgin Slightly Crazed
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    playing UO they hope.
     
  30. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    That does assume that there was no one else there, hidden or otherwise.
    And, that there's no "cooldown" on the AI. That when you leave an area, the AI immediately suspends.
     
  31. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    The AI does have creatures and npcs wander around aimlessly... or apparently so to us foolish players.

    The original intent was that every creature and npc would have dislikes, desires, affinities and needs. They would attempt to find/get those desires and needs. So, for instance, a goat wants to eat... anything I guess, so it looks for food. It likes other goats. It dislikes wolves. It likes humans that are "good", but not those that are "bad".

    So, it wanders around at random, looking for those situations and trying to find them. From our perspective, however, we can't always see them doing this in an obvious way. BUT, if you sit and watch a large group of animals or creatures, you can see them stop a bit, almost like they are pathfinding for something. Then then turn and move off. Sometimes towards something in particular, othertimes just at random.

    Yes, they turned off most of the original True-life AI they attempted (I seem to recall a dev telling us at some point that the players in Beta managed to kill off entire populations of deer, so they had to turn off the 'reproducing' parts when whole areas lost their animals. )

    However I am pretty sure the behaviors for affinities and dislikes are still there for many things.

    As for npcs and creatures 'stopping up' recall sites -- sometimes the problem is that they are trying to go in direction X, which is through your house (or wall or whatever.) They have no reason to change course, so they keep trying until something else draws their attention. It looks like the 'find another interesting path' code only attempts it every 5-10 seconds when they get to a stopping place, and sometimes that means they just sit there.

    I've watched the terathans and ophidians fight, the only reason they wouldn't is if the paths didn't come close enough for them to notice each other.

    The other problem is that in the first few years they added a sort of dampening mechanism to spawns. If the spawn isn't "bothered" by anything for more than (I think) 5 minutes, it despawns and a new spawn is triggered. They did this because spawns were clogging up the server -- they tried to keep certain spawns rare or uncommon, which meant if the creature/npc/animal never went away or never got taken from the subserver, it wouldn't spawn again. We see that effect with taming and certain higher level creatures.

    I have to say, I do miss being able to gate dungeon creatures to the surface. While it could cause some problems with newbies, it would have allowed us to do some more interesting player events.

    Anyway, um... Ok, if we're going philosophical:

    We have all sorts of undead creatures -- why are they pretty much only undead Humans? Why aren't there undead Orcs, undead Trolls, undead Elves, undead deer?

    Why hasn't the Elf world tree fallen down from the weight of the millions of step stools, wind chimes, flower garlands, and broadswords we've dumped on them?

    Why do many finished products weigh more than their component parts?
     
  32. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
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    I had no idea such a lighthearted question posted in jest would spark such a discussion of UO's AI. I was just really bored and thought this would be good for a laugh.

    I wasn't asking about AI, I was just wondering out loud the mysteries of the universe.
    If a tree falls in the woods, and nobody is around to hear it, does it still make a noise?
     
  33. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    We are all curious geeks at heart that likes to ponder the mysteries of the world?

    Now, you have raised another question, the law of physics say that the tree does indeed make a noise. Even if no oe is there to heard it.

    To follow up on that, energy cannot be destroyed - Said tree has converted part of it's potential energy (mass) to kinectic engery (falling). Part of the energy is converted into sound. Now, what does the sound energy convert into? Does it just dissappear into thin air?

    Does that explain the butterfly theory?
     
  34. Lord Vader

    Lord Vader Guest

    Yes, the monsters are still there but as someone already mentionend their "AI" is off.
    They don't get computed when noone is around, it was even mentionend once in a devs post and no matter what others may say, NO, monster are not moving or anything else if noone is around. If you have a house in an isolated area you can even figure this out for yourself. Ever wondered why your recall rune is blocked for hours, just to see a rabbit jump from your exact recall rune spot the moment you walked there?
     
  35. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
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    I thought it was matter that couldn't be created nor destroyed. Is there a similar law regarding energy too?
     
  36. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    Matter is just another form of energy. ( E=mc^2 )

    Of course, I'm not sure how that applies to universes where dupe bugs exist :)
     
  37. uoBuoY

    uoBuoY Guest

    So if take a screen shot of an out-of-way, remote, char-less area
    Immediately recall out
    Recall in 5 mins later
    Take another screen shot
    All the critters will be in exactly the same place?
    Sounds testable
     
  38. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    That's a good idea *makes note to do that*
    ( I do think monsters that have already targetted you are still active for a while)

    A part of me doesn't want to know the answer though ... it spoils the illusion to know too much.
     
  39. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Yup, the law of conservation of energy (that's a mouthful to say out loud). The geek in me is starting to scare myself...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

    Energy is always converted from 1 form to another.
     
  40. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    ( aside: as the wikipedia article alludes to, modern physics has actually flipped the notion of conservation of energy on its head - energy is now widely defined as simply "that which is preserved over time" )
     
  41. Kayne.

    Kayne. Journeyman
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    ive learned that EVs dont do anything if you run away from them. they just stand there.
     
  42. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Imagine explaining that to school children :D

    Another thing I was pondering, someone on the Discovery channel mentioned that the maximum amount of energy we can use is whatever sunlight we are getting. The arguement being plants are the primary source of food in any food chain.

    However, in photosynthesis, sunlight is just a catalyst, it does not change the chemical equation of converting carbon and h20 into glucose (or other sugar molecules). So does that mean that plants do actually create energy out of thin air? Does that mean that the plants are actually duping energy? If so, we have just found the link between conservation of energy, conservation of cpu cycles in incative subservers and the dupe bugs mwuahahahaha



    Right, back on topic - if animals are being blocked by the steps in front of your house, yes, that can be explained by the AI retrying the attempt to move in that direction. The AI handles statics like mountains and trees well and will chose a different direction if blocked. But for some reason, not the houses. Why is why I mark my house rune 2 tiles away from the steps.

    And the mobs that I see standing in place does not include these.