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Vampiric Nerf

Discussion in 'UHall' started by spoonyd, Aug 13, 2008.

  1. spoonyd

    spoonyd Seasoned Veteran
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    Ok dev team, let's get down to it. Are enough people complaining about Vamp form from items that it warrants a nerf? Any plans or talk about this on a REAL level instead of heresay and complaints?
     
  2. Vyrquenox

    Vyrquenox Guest

    from what I can tell a vast minority are upset (the ones that are upset about everything that doesn't fit their specific 'five pillars of John Doe's game' and making lots of nasty comments. A poll done recently had far more people voting to leave it alone but a lot of people actually commenting in a flamestorm arguement against it. My viewing of these issues is about 4-5 people complaining over and over and over. Nobody else cares, it doesn't impact the PVP group, it isn't scripting or duping the economy or affecting their game (though they say it is by proxy) they seem to mostly go on the moral ground that in fantasy games the idea of a lone hero defeating an evil boss monster is unheard of, and that in society and in mmorpgs we should be forced to work together at all times. Generally they are the ones who run at frankenstein's castle with torches. I am tired of this arguement, it is stupid to argue 'this offends my sensibilities' while dupes and scripters run rampant, and especially silly to argue 'it isn't logical' when we are in a fantasy world where elementals made of blood run around and spiders carry gold and weapons.

    This has been argued to finality already. I tend to think the ace on my side are the japanese shards. They will think twice before messing with a community accepted playstyle (like it is over there) in probably their largest single demographic. Remember, to the japanese, the idea of a chivalrous vampire samurai is about as unusual as a tree with leaves. They've only made 1000 movies along those lines.
     
  3. Mistura

    Mistura Lore Keeper
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    To say that this topic is wearing thin would be a monumentous understatement.

    Please, lets just leave it alone now and trust that the devs won't listen to the whining minority.
     
  4. Vyrquenox

    Vyrquenox Guest

    This is what I meant to say.
     
  5. mmmbeer

    mmmbeer Guest

    being able to acquire a spell thru items and then taking them off for other items and still keeping the spell is super tarded....nerf it!!!
     
  6. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I don't think vamp form should be nerfed.

    I just think the exploit where people go into vamp form and then drop their skill below the minimum to cast vamp form and continue to be in vamp form should be fixed.

    Just because lots of people do it doesn't make it not an exploit.
     
  7. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
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    And I think that's where most people aware of the capability (or of the same exploit used for different spells/abilities) stand.
     
  8. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    It's annoying when people keep making threads and posts in which they pretend that EA's decided to ruin the (only serious) use of Vamp form.

    I've seen them come up with stuff like "I accept a swordsman's limitations: nerf the vamp dexers so they can be weak tanks too!". They say that, and then go to their stables and get their well-loved Greater Dragons out and go tank hard stuff with them.

    The vamp bush dexer is unique in a good way. It's hard to set up with gear that really makes it work properly, and once you do get its gear, stats, and weapons arranged well, it's not easy to use. It requires much more attention than a good tamer with a good superdragon, and I think I am qualified to say that since I have 2 tamers and 2 vamp form dexers (one archer one melee).

    I feel like telling people who ***** about the vamp bush dexers to ST*U and enjoy their game the way they want it, and let the rest of us enjoy our game too. Do you like your greater dragons? How about live and let live instead of demanding the destruction of other people's favorite tank templates?

    edit:

    AND STOP CALLING IT AN EXPLOIT

    ITS NOT AN EXPLOIT

    THE DEVELOPERS CERTAINLY UNDERSTOOD THE NATURE OF THE ITEMS COMING OFF THE CHAR BEFORE THEY RELEASED NECROMANCY INTO THE WILD!
     
  9. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
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    /Signed and QFT
     
  10. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest


    Sorry I annoy you. The VE +skill item exploit is almost a perfect example of what an exploit is.
     
  11. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    Exploit means that it's a bug or unintended game mechanics characteristic that the player is taking advantage of.

    It's nothing more than utilization of a LONG KNOWN game mechanics characteristic END OF STORY. You can call EA lots of things but you can't call them oblivious to how +skill items have always worked!

    NO BUG NO UNINTENDED GAME MECHANICS EXPLOIT, and it's not an abuse unless the UO Dev people look at the balance of the template and its use in the world and declare it as such. And in the big picture, the vamp dexers happen to fit right in next to tamers (whose pets tank) and archers/mages (who do not need to tank, being ranged).

    It's identical to tamers who slide on that +15 taming ring to store extra pets in the stable. The minute they take the jewel off, do the extra pets don't pop out of the stable? When I put on a +15 ring to tame a high level pet for myself, does it instantly go wild when I unequip it (since I didn't have the real skill to tame it in the first place)?

    Stop calling us cheaters you *******. I take it personally kthx.
     
  12. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

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    yeah i agree. that has been a bug in the game for over 5 YEARS.

    i think it might be time to fix it. lol.
     
  13. egglett

    egglett Journeyman
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    If it was going to be nerfed,wouldnt it have been done the same time as tactics & bushido was?
    There was enough people crying for it then!
     
  14. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    This topic is Over Majority i think wins on this issue!! Vamp form Not an exploit +skills well could debate that to death also but they exist and i for one am not up for loosing the powers my +skill collection +76 necro i like to keep that! +65 mage is very handy to have! and +40 vet +40 lore handy to rez pets low skill +70 stelth and lots more... the items are there to be taken advantage of sorry the game has become more item based and yea you need to go get the items or pay piles of gold to get them but they are made to have a function not just look pretty. and the +skills were intended to be in the game sorry you think anything thats not oldschool is an exploit, "OMG That Character Kicks Ass Lets Nerf It" ppht Get a clue!
     
  15. Mistura

    Mistura Lore Keeper
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    Same topic, same chat, same arguments, same crybabies...

    Different day.

    :sleep2:
     
  16. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Sorry everyone but its not a bug or exploit. Its basically being used what it was meant for just like when you use a Axe to kill something instead of chopping wood. No pure necro will be using it and without people using it now then there will be no more vampires maybe in rare occasion but will not be a viable template anymore. Its a template and role playing template that have formed many vampire guilds around. It is useful for those who can afford it and unattainable for those who cant so its something to work you're char to wards. The skill jewelry is meant for that just like its meant at times to make music instruments or boost you're skill up to train something temporally or cast protection,reactive armor,magic reflect on you're non mage characters. Its meant what its used for.

    Tell me this how many will even use that spell if the current system is Nerf. Why did the reward for killing mellissa was +5 fire cloak which is extremely useful for those who use the vampiric spell that lowers there fire resist. As well as many items that seem catered for just that template.

    Ea dev knew what they were doing when they implement this. Yes sometimes things go bad but this went completely right by allowing a tank be able to tank as long the player knows what he or she is doing. Or do you prefer the tank to hide behind dragons or run away from every hit yea that don't sound fun. And the point of ultima is to have some fun so i suggest don't worry about it and get out and play the game you pay for already as it doesn't effect pvp in any way. So lets drop this and not impose other people play styles upon others.
     
  17. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I know what exploit means. So you're basically saying that the devs designed a high lvl necro buff to be used by non-necros? That same argument could be used for any exploit. I don't see VE as a serious exploit and I certainly don't call people cheaters for abusing one of the 2 VE exploits. It IS an exploit, though.

    I mean I could use your same logic to explain away several exploits just like this...
    The devs designed a certain item, so it could be used to summon 2 familiars.
    The devs designed item duplication into the game, so we could get infinite runic kits.
    The devs designed vendors so you could buy from one and sell to another at a million + profit.
    The devs designed the dark wolf, so necros could control cu's (a fixed exploit)
    The devs designed the serpent familiar so players could control the yamanadon champ...

    Yes, I gave extreme examples, but I'm still making a valid point. Who are you to say how the devs designed VE to work? Especially when you consider the devs came out and said that they are going to make changes because VE isn't working as intended.

    VE is powerful even if it requires you to have 99 real necro while in the form. It was designed to serve as a necro/warrior (shadowknight) template. It didn't get broken until players could use it with chiv + bushido without having a reasonable amount of necro on their template. If players had to have necro/ss on their template, they couldn't get the huge dmg buffs that chiv/bushi give you and the 75% leeching that is possible would no longer be broken.

    Comparing a sampire's ability to tank to a tamer's is an apples to oranges comparison. Sampires do much more dmg, have higher survivability and tank better than pets. Why? because they bypass the key balancing aspect of VE (the 99 min skill to cast). You can take this discussion further and make a sampire/tamer like I did. LOL crazy char... a char that can tank AND control a powerful pet! Sampire/tamer can easily out-damage a discord tamer.

    I'm not saying it's wrong to exploit VE while it works the way it does. I'm just saying the devs are in the right if they are tweaking VE, so it enforces the restrictions that are SUPPOSED TO be applied to the form. It's a simple example of new content breaking old content. When AoS was released, the devs didn't think it was plausable to build a 100% LRC suit let alone a +60 necro suit... The devs of AoS failed to recognize the possibility that players would be able to easily get enough +necro items to cast VE and then change suits. They also failed for foresee the possibility that items would be created that allow players to trade skills in and out of their template (soulstones)
     
  18. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Why did they add even more necromancy items after people began to use this "exploit"? I'm sure they knew about with the whiners on UHall *****ing about it constantly. And vamp form is pretty much useless for anyone that does have high enough necro to use it really.
     
  19. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I will still use it after the exploit is fixed. You can run a necro/dexer build using curse weapon and vamp form to leech 75% of your dmg back as health. Even with the loss of the massive damage buffs from chiv and bushido (never should have existed in the first place), vamp form is still completely viable.

    Vamp form in its current, flawed design is easily exploitable to effectively be in god mode. Immunity to 4 lvls of poison, regen, leech with some penalties with absolutely no investment required (soulstone). I don't understand how anyone can even convince themself that this is how VE was originally intended to function. You can easily buff your DI by 300% in vamp form and have max HCI/DCI/resists with the occasional crit AND a crazy high parry chance.

    I'm not just talking about vamp form as a casual observer. I'm talking based on how I came into running a sampire after having not played a dexer for almost 8 years and had absolutely no trouble soloing peerless. It's not balanced. It is UO on easy mode and it is not working as it was designed.

    I have since built a sampire tamer on top of my other sampire and have found that character to be possibly even more broken than my sampire, because it gives me even more tanking options as I can take turns with my pet at absorbing blows from my foe.
     
  20. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    It's very useful for people with 99+ real necro... you just have to think a little harder, because you can't buff your dmg up to 300% as easily.
     
  21. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Vamp form = 20% life leech
    Curse weapon = 50% life leech

    20 + 50 =75? I get 70. I think its 20% on vampiric embrace.

    And to paragraph 3: UO on easy mode = you're lying, it still takes skill to get peerless keys/solo peerlesses, just because you could solo Dread, the easiest of all the peerlesses, vamp form =/= god mode... It's balanced fine, it gives dexers a chance to actually do peerlesses in groups without having to rely on incompetent mages to heal them constantly, greater dragons can tank better, etc.

    And even if vamp form is nerfed, I just go back to my wraith form macer, who can actually solo even easier than my vamp form swordsman... What's the reason behind the future nerf for that? "Waaaaaah devs he can solo stuff by using a spell thats completely legal and a combination of skills that is also completely legal and is an intended use of game mechanics!!!!!!" Repeat after me guys, IT'S JUST A GAME, and one where in 4/5 of the game, nothing anyone does affects you in any way whatsoever... Call the whaaaambulance already.

    Wraith dexer > vamp dexer.

    I know that wraith can solo at least 4/6 of the peerlesses. Cry more UHall.
     
  22. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Tweaking is making it useless. There is no difference in the damage output only helps a bit to survive without running for you're life all the time and allows you to use weapons without life leach giving you more choices. I have 40 Necro on my template all times That makes me a Necro. Humans have 20 invisible Necro on there templates all the time that makes them Necros and that what it means to be that makes them "jack of all trades" Using that wasted 100 points in SS to heal is a waste.

    They have to suffer the draw backs for being a vampire so it takes alot more skill and items to balance it properly.

    Any change to it at this point will make it a useless spell,unless bring the requirement down to 20 so that jack of all trades can get bit by a vampire and turn. Which if you look at it from a Role player perspective any char can get bit by a vampire and turn to a vampire.

    A sampire tamer interesting but without the pet he would be dead and the pet without the player it would be dead. It would take both to stay in the game as the 3 tamer skills take up the carefully balance skill template of a full blown sampire.
     
  23. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Tell me about it I just don't understand it. Other forums for Uo people there don't complain so much about anybody else template but here in uohall its always someone who wants to put down other players cause for whatever reason. What is it more immature people go on uohall than anywhere else. I know it has a teen rating but come on. People should just play the game instead of worrying about what a better player than them can do. I'm saying one of these days with so much complaining everyone will end up looking like robots in UO without any type of personality and creatively to keep up with all the complainers.
     
  24. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    UHall

    This is the place for general discussion about Ultima Online nerfs, development nerfs, and related Ultima Online nerfs. Please keep posts about nerfs, and use the U. Hall OT for non-nerf-related posts!

    That just about sums it up.
     
  25. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I'm not lieing. Personally, I think proxy is easier than DH, but maybe he's just weaker to me personally. I call sampire UO on easy mode, because I can take on stuff that's supposed to be hard relatively easily. Every template requires some skill to play vs high-end content. A lot of the skill in playing a sampire (imo) is figuring out how to run one... after that, you're basically banging the same keys over and over.

    I disagree that GD tank better than a sampire. I have a GD that's 7% off the max TOTAL resists. In other words, I have about as good of a tanking GD as you can get and my sampire tanks better. Both tank very well.

    Obviously I made a mistake in thinking VE gave 25% life leech. It's not like you can really tell the difference in game anyway. No matter how you cut it, if you are playing a sampire right, you're hitting hard enough to pretty much leech back all your hp with every hit anyway. Or maybe I'm doing it wrong and that's why I'm hitting so hard and being fully healed every 1.25 seconds.
     
  26. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    No offense but the Devs have proven time and again that they quite often DO NOT understand the nature of 'items'
    Do I need to give a long list of examples? because if so I will start with event items such as the lrc/mr sash or 10 hp clothing. I could then go on with non-event items such as the original Talon Bite which was able to do a billion damage with one hit on certain templates and continue on with the old armor ignore on almost every 2-handed weapon in the game on certain templates(ranged bows included lol)

    Bottom line is that only a fool or biased player seriously believes that being able to use and then take off items for Vampiric Embrace is legit. It is ridiculous & should be addressed. Once the items come off the spell disappears. period...
     
  27. azmodanb

    azmodanb Grand Poobah
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    /signed.
     
  28. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Not really it all depends how you're character is made. Not every sampire is the same. Replace sampire and use a high life leech weapon plus extra MR and you will have a sampire without vampiric form. Just using the vampire makes it easier for people to achieve that level of fighting with less specific weps and more different templates. Giving you a option with different weps,equip that will work better for situation. My sampire doesn't hit hard and cant leach back everything for every hit unless they hit me for 10 damage instead of 50+ damage most high end creatures do per hit plus spells. But its geared to last in battle long periods of time to make up for the low damage output.
     
  29. There is a simple fix for necromancy forms I have suggested time and time again throughout the ages... Require Necromancy AND spirit speak to acquire the form. EX Instead of 99 necromancy to get vamp form, it would now need 99 necromancy and 99 spirit speak to get.
     
  30. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    I wote we nerf whiners !!!
     
  31. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    /signed, I said that in some of my multiple posts on this subject, it doesn't affect anyone in any way.
     
  32. Masumatek

    Masumatek Guest

    I think the subject of whether it's legal or not has come up before and I *think* someone official said it was perfectly legal...though don't quote me on that, I'm not positive.

    I don't think it's an exploit...but I do think it needs removed. And this is coming from someone who has the items to go into vamp form with 24 skill btw, so it's not about not being able to "afford it." Vamp form is balanced when checked against the negative effects ONLY when it costs the full skill points to use. If you need barely any skill points or even none, it becomes overpowered. The ability to remain in vamp form using soulstones or +skill items needs to be completely removed.

    And it doesn't matter how many people agree or disagree. If the majority of people don't want balance (which we can never be sure of anyway simply by judging from the opinions of some of many stratics posters who make up a small part of the people playing the game), that doesn't mean the right move is for the devs to allow imbalance. In my experience, if one of the main arguments one side has for whatever the topic may be is "the majority agree," they're arguing from a very weak position. All you guys can throw against a nerf is numbers. Unfortunately the devs do too often listen to the majority, but hopefully they don't do that in this case. If they listened to the "majority" in all cases, this game would be even worse than it is now.
     
  33. Diggity

    Diggity Guest

    The broader issue is that +skill items are too imbalanced, particularly now that KR makes it very easy to equip specific + skill items on an as needed basis.

    As mentioned in other threads,you can easily equip 30-50 points in chiv, lore, taming, vet, bard skills etc. Still receive the benefits, then easily swap out for your "real" gear. I am sure I have seen at least one all 120's mage/tamer/bard who even casts 100% remove curse as well. I'd guess at least 900 skill points in use at one time or another.

    I recall Mr. Tact recognized this imbalance with his proficiencies proposal that would have eliminated massive abuse of + skill items while still allowing players the opportunity to choose to tailor their characters to use skill items while giving up other benefits/proficiencies. I'd hope the devs address all potential skill item exploits rather than bandage whatever is making the most noise here.
     
  34. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    The problem with Vamp Form and other such "toggle" spells is that the whole idea SHOULD be that you ONLY stay in that form as long as you have the required skill. If you remove skill items AFTER casting the spell, the spell should fail as you no longer have the skill points to keep it "active".

    Want to stay in Vamp form, keep the skill items equipped.
     
  35. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Lets make this simple...

    At the time Necromancy came out the MAXIMUM skill you could get from items was 50, and that was only if you were *leet enough* to have come acrossed two +15 *useful* jewels and the midnight bracers. The developers at that point had no idea another 25 points of stackable items were going to become available, and therefor had no reason to set limits on jewels..no jewels...skill..no skill.

    With change to the games items, change should have followed with adjustments to the game mechanics overlooking those forms THROUGH NECROMANCY. It didnt get adjusted and as such many people have taken advantage. Now things have come to the attention of the developers and they are once again working to plug the *holes* in the game left open by other dev. teams. Seems like a logical and simple thing to do for the sake of the game to me.
     
  36. Shelleybean

    Shelleybean Certifiable
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    /agree
     
  37. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    you pop on a +15 magery spellbook to better rezz a mate.. does he die when you take the book off ?? You use jewelry to tame a pet , does it go wild when you take it off ?? You use a tali and hammer to make an exceptional piece of armour , does it become un-exceptional when you take em off ???
    Peopel who use inscribe to cast certain spells and then soulstone it off should loose the scribe bonus ??? .. do I have to continue ?????
     
  38. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Ressing is not a "toggle" type of spell. If it were an "Animate Dead" then yes it should.

    If you use Jewelry to tame a pet, then take it off, you might find it difficult to control said pet depending on control requirements.

    Making an item with a hammer is NOT a toggle type action.

    Soulstoning a skill also, NOT dealing with a toggle spell.

    3 of your 4 examples and comparing apples and dump trucks, the taming one works as it should.
     
  39. Tjalle

    Tjalle Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Campaign Supporter Gilfane

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    /Signed
     
  40. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    nope it just eksamples that are as silly as yours imho....

    and saying the scribe thing aint a toggle spell is bull**** , if a skill or spell should stop working if the requirements are no longer fullfilled then all of the eksamples are viable , be it because the skill is removed entirely or for any other reason , you cant have it both ways just because you got your nerf eye on vamp form ...

    nuff said ..... Now spending dev time adding coco-butter now that needs a nerf and fast !!!!
     
  41. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
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    I'm not calling for a nerf, just some balance. Make the vamp form wear off if you remove the jewels. You should still get all the benefits if you always have the jewels on while you're in vamp, or if you have the required necro.
     
  42. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Nope, the comparisons that work are:

    Magery: Reactive Armor, Protection, Any Summon Spell (control purposes), Polymorph, Magic Reflect

    Necro: Animate Dead, Summon Familiar, Forms, Vengeful Spirit

    Paladin: Enemy of One, Divine Fury

    Bushido: Evasion, Confidence

    Stealth: Number of steps taken in Stealth mode before next skill check
     
  43. Diggity

    Diggity Guest

    barding: disco, provo

    taming: should not be able to bond with jewels, guard me should have a timer as well

    crafting: should require real secondary skills, otherwise mark as "crafted by a poser wearing jewels"

    There are caps for hci, dci, di etc., why not caps on + skill items? Maybe tie it to item id skill. No item ID, no + skill use. Not sure how to scale/cap it, but something needs to be done to all +skill items, not just necro.
     
  44. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Well IMO, the issue isn;t the items themselves, just that effects like the ones listed should fail once the + skill items are removed. If you have a maintained situation (toggle spell or timed effect), then you need to maintain the skill required to use said skill/spell in order to keep it active.
     
  45. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    the issue is that there now is a pvm char that has a fighting chance to semi compete with tamers , i dont see any pvp peopel complain about it.....
     
  46. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    They don't, 90% of the things PvPers complain about are all valid issues that actually matter to UO. On the opposite side, 90% of the things UHallers complain about are all issues that are a waste of the developer's (not a typo) time.
     
  47. HD2300

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    It would be absolutely insane for devs to implement this, unless they want subscriptions to drop even lower.

    Even if it is nerfed, Wammies could still solo high end stuff.

    The solution is to make Vamp Embrace require 0 skill to cast, so that anti-fun purists can move back to complaining about non-archers using +5 dci quivers.
     
  48. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    No, its the same 10 OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. You would think by the time the same 10 people made a post about the same topic that Stratics would simply start locking these threads when they start. They are nothing more than thinly veiled attempts at trolling.

    Seeing you didn't get the point the first 100 times though, Vamp form is really all the dexxers have to be competitive at all. The problem is that dexxers themselves are broken. Dexxers need readjusted so that they don't have to use vamp form. Part of that readjustment should be a way to get dexxers away from having to use inteligence to do special moves.

    However, seeing that EA will never invest the time into dexxers to make them competitive they should let them have this little crutch. Dexxers are no more overpowered with vamp form then tamers are with greater dragons. Hell, I'm willing to bet with the right ammount of skill and timing and patience any toon that is geared properly and templated properly could probably solo the peerless and that includes dexxers, tamers, and mages.
     
  49. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    I agree with the dude. You really need to read up on the definition of an exploit because you are making no sense. It is not an exploit. An exploit is using an illegal third party program or an ingame bug to "enhance" your game play. The problem here is that its not a bug to use items to cast VE and then take them off. If it was then the developers would have either fixed it by now or came right out and said that they are monitoring people using it and they will be banned. Seeing NO BUG is being used BECAUSE VE IS CURRENTLY FUNCTION AS ATTENDED it is NOT AN EXPLOIT. Is it really that hard to understand that?
     
  50. galefan2004

    galefan2004 Guest

    On the same note....if I switch to provocation jewelery to provoke two creatures to fight each other and then take that jewelery off do they stop fighting? If I put on discord jewelery to discord a creature and take if off does that creature suddenly become undiscored? The answer to both is no. The only reason the VE has gotten so much attention is because people don't want them to be able to solo stuff that is easily soloed by tamers. They want to see dexxers as a pointless or PvP only class, so that they don't have to compete with them when it comes to peerless.