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vender costs/ what do you think

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Lord Arm, Jul 17, 2015.

  1. Lord Arm

    Lord Arm Seasoned Veteran

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    I'm on a small shard, I cant keep stuff on venders because I will lose money so there are not many venders anywhere. new people come to the game and have a hard time buying what they need/want. I've seen many of them quit the game for this reason. I was just wondering if some stuff can have no cost or be charged when sold, something that can help, what do you think?

    edit post: this post is about low end items that news players need/want, to keep them in the game. im not saying anything about changes to all items. post by merus seems to see what I was trying to say. I just wanted good discussion/ideas. I would like to see certain items only be charged when sold like rune books, mage books, scrolls, various supplies,ect, low end items.
    maybe too much work for devs though. Tanivar and Sunwolf: stuff having no charge that is under 5 or 10k , good ideas.
     
    #1 Lord Arm, Jul 17, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2015
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  2. HoneythornGump

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    Vendor fees are detrimental to the game for the reasons you point out. The fee/commission should be subtracted at the time of the sale or not at all.

    Instead of shards appearing vibrant and well stocked, many have become wastelands. New players login to a shard where they have the best connection, and the shard appears dead. Returning players login and say "WTF happened to UO. This shard used to be hopping. This game is dead"....

    There's no point in having a gold sink if it's going to adversely affect the game's ability to retain players (by appearing alive and being able to provide items to players) and ultimately it's ability to remain solvent.
     
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  3. MissEcho

    MissEcho Slightly Crazed
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    Sadly the game is geared to Atlantic only. I also don't bother with my vendors on my small shard as even stuff cheap as chips like repair deeds 'lose' money due to the time they take to sell vs vendor fees. I used to run 30+ fully stocked vendors for yrs, mostly crafted items (25 vendors) and 5 vendors that dealt with higher end items. Now, I don't bother, the fees just kill you on smaller shards. I have tested it a few times, stocked a vendor with a million in 'fees' put on it only to watch that million disappear over the months, and sure people will say 'drop your prices' yadda yadda yadda, but there comes a point at where you can't drop any more as there is no point in knocking yourself out stocking a vendor to make a loss. The other problem is the shard shield transfers, if you stock too 'low' any higher end items just get bought and shipped to Atlantic by those who are old enough to have the luxury of being able to transfer for free multiple times a month.

    I would still stock all the crafted items, furniture, books, weaps, armors etc if the fees didn't make the thing an ongoing loss. But as per my opening sentance the game is geared to Atlantic ONLY.
     
  4. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    Just drop your prices to something more people will pay and your merchandise will sell. Price it very high and it will sit on your vendor for ages and cost a fortune in vendor fees. Doesn't take a rocket scientist, just some business sense. Charge what the market will bear.
     
  5. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    It's a gold sink get over it. IMO the cost should grow with the price. Honestly more people charge WAY more than something is worth anyway.. but the sad fact is that the price is governed by the rich.... and what they are willing to pay. If you try to sell to the AVERAGE JOE player the Rich Vendor Tycoons will come buy up all your stock transfer it to Atl and sell it for WAY more than it's worth.
     
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  6. Spock's Beard

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    Charge a vendor fee when the item is sold. Having to pay just to have an item sit there is BS.
     
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  7. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Don't price it so high it won't just sit there.
     
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  8. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    If it sits on your vendor that long there's no demand for that item, your trying to sell something no one wants.

    Crafting has pretty well faded away, figure out what people want and put only that on vendors. Post a thread on your shard and ask what people want to buy but can't find on vendors, and go by that.

    See what people want to buy on bazaar vendors and gather those items to sell to those vendors. That's what I'm doing on Siege. It's playing more Gatherer than Artisan, but it's crafting.
     
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  9. HoneythornGump

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    Totally agree, and Shard Shields only made it worse. Veterans can transfer free of cost while others pay through the nose.

    If I could buy and trade on other items on other shards I would, but if you want to be "in the game" then you have no choice but to set up shop on Atlantic. Otherwise your just going to get trampled in the dust...

    :p
     
  10. Lord Arm

    Lord Arm Seasoned Veteran

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    well, im taking about less populated shards, check them out, there aren't many venders. I guess i can charge one gold but will still lose money lol. the rocket has left the building with the business lol. just want to help new people form leaving game.
     
  11. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    Find out what people want to buy on your shard and gather and sell that. People who want to run vendors need to figure that out. If no one wants your merchandise it's going to sit. Just pick merchandise to sell that people want. Those that insist on supplying what there is no demand for are going to give up vendors. *shrugs*
     
  12. Captn Norrington

    Captn Norrington Trade Forum Administrator
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    The issue with only selling the things the majority of people want, is that then the shard doesn't have anyone selling the harder to find things that people also need. For example, if everyone is buying epaulettes, and to meet that demand all the vendors on that shard are also selling epaulettes, that means someone who wants to wear a hooded robe instead is completely out of luck because no one on the entire shard has one for sale since they are focusing only on epaulettes. I play Atlantic, and have gotten used to being able to get pretty much anything I will ever need from a vendor in only a minute or two. When I go to smaller shards I'm always shocked at how little is available, I've seen shards where it's difficult just to find a house that has a vendor, it's even more rare for that vendor to actually have something for sale.
     
  13. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    If something isn't available via Vendor Search then you need to ask a crafter you know or ask on chat. Drop a book saying what you want in the mailbox at a place with vendors if needed and arrange to have it made for you.
     
  14. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    You see the problem here is compounded by the transfer folk. If you try to sell something at the price people on YOUR shard can and will pay then someone from some other shard will come over buy you out and then transfer it all to Atl and sell it for drummed up prices... Furthermore... if you price things like you live on Atl ...... no one on your shard will buy it they will just go get their own...

    And finally... If there isn't anyone on the shard to buy what your selling anyway because they are only there to do champ spawns and then transfer all the spoils off to their home shard... where ever that might be.

    There are 2 major problems plaguing other shards... first that so many people think it's great to live on Atl.... second that so many people on Atl think that everyone else ought to give a damn about them...

    And somewhere along the line people forgot how to play on other shrads... or forgot that there are people that play on other shards who DON'T go to Atl to buy and sell crap.

    Years ago you couldn't leave your shard. If you wanted to play somewhere else you had to build a new character... Then they introduced shard transfer tokens... For awhile folk thought this was awesome... people jumped from shard to shard..... whole guilds moved to other shards (This caused a bunch to spontaneously combust). But after awhile they introduced the shard shields... now folk were going somewhere without paying... making it "easy" to transfer goods... and eventually the more populated shards like GL, Atl, LS etc.. started having a booming economy while other shards started to lose folk... First off because X-Sharders were buying up everything people on the shard needed... and secondly because there were less and less folk doing things on the shards... Eventually the game seems to have gone from community to Greed... So the need to feed this ever growing hunger for gold and making billions so they can sell gold to those who can't seem to get any anymore because either there isn't anything to buy or they have to constantly get more transfer tokens to get back and forth to the shards that sell the things they need... or they need to transfer to another shard to sell there wares because they feel they aren't getting enough for it on their shard they are getting "ripped off" because they can't get Atl prices on Origins or Legends... or whatever.. it's a vicious cycle...

    Personally I prefer to not visit Atl... but then I don't have vendors... I don't sell much of anything besides what I sell to friends... and I wouldn't care if they shut Atl down... But that's me.
     
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  15. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    I think you miss the point. The whole point would be to be able to stock the new player type items and let them sit there for as long as it takes for a new player to start and need them... Without paying 10x more than the items were for sale for. No one on the small shards is putting up EM event items and leaving them there for weeks hoping for a buyer. But you might see more items like spellbooks, runebooks, low end suits, etc available on small shards at prices a new player could afford if it weren't for the current fee structure. And to be honest, most of the players on small shards are really even interested in making money off it (no one is getting rich selling 1200 gold runebooks)... We want to be able to put those items out on a vendor and not lose money to do it.
     
  16. Gamer_Goblin

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    Don't use new players as an excuse for your vendors. Vendor fees are low if you're not posting in the millions. New players find nothing of use for goods in the millions.
     
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  17. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Perhaps you should recheck your math... The percent fee is the same regardless of the price... Any item left on a vendor long enough will eventually have vendor fees that exceed the cost of the item. THAT is the whole point. Yes for expensive items on a busy shard it is more of a pricing issue... But on slow shard some of us would like the ability to offer low end items that might very well sit there for months before someone needs them with it actually costing the vendor owner more in fees. Take a runebook for example... Just an example... But if you put up a runebook for sale for 800 gold, on a slow shard it could very well sit there long enough for the vendor fees to exceed 800 gold. So what happens? No one sells runebooks on vendors... then when a new player starts there are none for sale. No one is making their millions selling runebooks for 800 gold... But some of us would sell them solely for the benefit of that new player that might start... We would just like to do it without it actually costing us money.
     
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  18. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    KNOCK KNOCK ANYBODY THERE?
    For those of you trying to make the POINT, I GET IT and agree.
    For those of you who do not understand let me try to explain THE POINT.
    These are LOW population shards, they ARE NOT ATL.
    The prices of their items are already low and because they are on a LOW POPULATION shard, you know a shard not named Atl, there items will set on their vendors for a long time.
    Use that gray matter and use a little common sense here, they are not asking MILLIONS for their items but are asking a fair price and because they are on a LOW POPULATION shard their items set there longer than a shard like Atl.
    They are not asking the vendor fees to be removed or done away with, they are asking that the fee be collected at the time of the sell. It is still a gold sink and the money will be collected.
    Is it so hard to use some common sense and understand that not everybody plays on Atl and that items on shards, not named Atl, may sit there for a long period of time before selling if they sell at all.
     
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  19. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    Wow, there are some really ridiculous responses in this thread, nothing new. Charge the vendor fee at the time of sale, it only makes sense. To compare in real life, businesses would go out of business if they had to pay equivalent fees.
     
  20. Gamer_Goblin

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    Okay, lets explore this...

    UO has a huge gold problem. Any arguments to this? Gold sinks are needed in the game that scales to the player. This way new players aren't struggling with existing vet gold sinks. Do we all agree with this?

    If you do, let me lay out two scenarios...

    Vendor A has new player gear on it, lets say 1 LRC Suit for 10k, 1 70s suit for 10k, 10 spell books for 1k each (10k), and some runebooks totaling 10k. That's 40k. For simplicity the fee is 10%. That's 4k a day.
    Vendor B has EM event items, splintering weapons, Powerscrolls, Stat Scrolls, and the like... It's daily fee is over 100k a day.

    You all are saying the solution (For New Players, me.) is to remove the 100k a day gold sink to solve for the 4k a day fee you all can cover easily killing a few NPCs.

    So I'd argue that I understand fine... and you all don't understand. If you want to help people, help them. If you want to make gold, go make gold.
     
  21. Seelendolch

    Seelendolch Adventurer

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    idk about that, perhaps that works for you, but i am finding it hard to find much for sale. As a fairly new player, i think anything that can be done to help people like me stand on their own two feet is great. I.e. i heard that warriors were supposed to be really strong, so i bought a mythic token and started one up. I cannot find a starter suit for sale other than an lrc suit. I feel this vendor price thing may be the cause. Sure, i could probably ask in chat, and someone might make me one. knowing what people on my shard are like, someone will probably even offer to do it for free. But I want to pay for it, to feel a sense of self achievement. I think the op has a good idea, if that makes it easier for people to stock more stuff, not just high end stuff, then people like me and my 2 friends that started playing about 4-5 weeks ago might find qol a bit better. I had to look online how to earn a chest, and my friend and i farmed water elementals/paragons till we had a chest each. If the op's idea was in place, people would probably be selling them. If you are happy just catering to the old crowd, maybe that works on your server. I appreciate everyone (mainly the one person, you know who you are :D, and it was me that bought the scimitar and shield you had for sale on your new player vendor, thanks for stocking it ) that has helped me out a lot, but i want to earn my keep.
     
  22. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    Except that the vendor on the busy shard with the expensive items has some options to balance the price of the item vs the vendor fees. For instance, at price A item will take 1 week to sell and cost me 100k per day. So I can decrease my price by 700k and try and sell it today. You're kidding yourself if you think that doesn't happen.
    For slow shards with low end items that ability really isn't there... The choice really is more of leave it on the vendor indefinitely and probably lose money on the sale or don't sell it at all.
     
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  23. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    id be fine for a sliding scale for vendor fees, say 0% per day gradutated up to slightly higher than we have currently (to account for lower fees on lower items)

    off the top of my head the flat fee for vendors is .6% per day, perhaps raise that max but lower the rate for lower priced items.

    final scale being 0% to .8% perday should even things out.

    you can not have a "fee at sale" method system because it would raise prices on uncommon items too much. as it is vendor fees are what keep prices down. if a flat fee simply came at time of sale, it would make economical sense to price say, a bracelet currently priced at 50mil that would probably sell within 1 month at that price, to 100m or more if the length of time it sits on a vendor is not a factor.

    For rares, same thing. Currently i price rares at market price (a price the will sell fast enough to not have profits eaten by vendor fees)

    If it was a flat fee, people could double or triple the price of those items, and yes they would still sell but would take longer. the flat "sales fee" would be insignifant and not enough of a deterant to high priced items.

    Yes, if i would triple profits by having an item sit for 3 times as long on a vendor, i would take advantage of that and i think all those who are smart with their gold would too.
     
  24. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    alot of the cuase is because its much easier to build a higher grade suit from loot or items people throw on the ground right now. alot of people just unravel "trash" loot, because its worth more as imbue ingredients than the actual armor. So part of the problem is the greed or lazyness of people who just unravel rather than putting these items up for next to nothing.

    That being said, its very nice when you can find an artie or legendary artifact for 1k gold or so on a vendor. Ive started brand new characters from scratch, built all 70s resists suits with good mods from loot and low priced items in just a few hours.
     
  25. Seelendolch

    Seelendolch Adventurer

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    Come to oceania :D i will buy a suit from ur vendor :)
     
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  26. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    And on shards not named Atl those items on vendor A could easily set there long enough for the vendor fees to go higher than the items are worth.
    Vendor B should be charged normal fees because those items may be nice to have you really don't need them to play UO. Also on Low Population shards those type of things on vendor B can be found in chat during peak hours that new or returning players may or may not know the peak hours or how to use chat to begin with and yes they also may not know how vendor search works either but lets make it as easy as possible for new/returning players to get started back in the game.
     
  27. Longtooths

    Longtooths Supreme Commander
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    I disagree, vets paid their dues ahead of time in the way of a consistent subscription, while others did not and are now having to pay in the form of transfer tokens.
     
    #27 Longtooths, Jul 17, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2015
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  28. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    So a NEW/RETURNING player is going to know about all this new armor. This is being ask for the benefit of NEW/RETURNING players looking for starter sets when other players may or may not be around to help. So I guess I should ask are you a new or recently returned player, no you are someone that has been here a while so none or your chars are really new just freshly created, there is a difference. And guess what you play on the shard named ATL and these players are asking this for shards other than ATL. Why are people trying to make it so hard with all their "They do not get it ideas" for a NEW/RETURNING player to find starter stuff at a reasonable price on shards not named ATL that the vendor owners can afford to leave their items on vendors and not have it cost them more than what the item is worth? Is this concept really that hard to understand that people are trying to help NEW/RETURNING players, not people already here that know the game?
     
  29. Gamer_Goblin

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    But this isn't as simple as what others have said. They just want a simple fee change. They aren't talking about altering what fees apply to what items. Which it's my opinion is much more likely to be shot down.

    I just think that if you want to help new players the expectation of profit from it directly from vendor sales should be dropped.

    I do see that it may push away new players from creating vendors themselves because they (I) can't sell stuff for profit.
     
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  30. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    You really think vet players are in the market to sell spellbooks, runebooks, etc to make a profit?? Why can't it be that we want to be able to help a new player without it actually costing us money when we can't be on 24/7 to do it personally?
     
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  31. Gamer_Goblin

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    Dude. That's EXACTLY what they are complaining about. Not making a profit because of fees.

    What's the point of what you said here then if you don't care about the profit?

    Or here?

    If you're pricing new player stuff at new player friendly prices... the fee isn't going to get out of hand. Most people pass up looting corpses with the amount of gold to cover this.
     
  32. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    In most games, theres little direction. you figure it out. with armor, its pretty basic to expect a player to expect that: armor is good. you dont die so fast or makes you do things better. If a player actually plays the game after a few deaths its not hard to figure out the basics. same with most games.
     
  33. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
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    No, they are complaining about LOSING money because the items sit so long. The fee does get out of hand when even a low priced item sits for a long time! THAT is the complaint.
     
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  34. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    couldnt a vet whos really concerned with helping new players just put up everything for free to avoid any vendor costs?
     
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  35. Deep Ellum Dan

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    ... then wouldnt that be a win for the vendor owner? Their stuff sold... I do not see that as a problem. No, they wont get the prices on Atlantic but their stuff sold for the price they were wanting, or did i read this wrong?
     
  36. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    And what is going to stop other you know whats from just taking it all?
     
  37. Spock's Beard

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    This reminds me of all the people who were claiming that Vendor Search would make everything horribly expensive too. Boy remember when that totally happened?
     
  38. Nexus

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    I'm actually in favor of a split vendor fee. A one time fee for a percentage of the item's sale price initially, then another feed for a percentage of the price when sold, this way it doesn't matter how long an item sits on a vendor.
     
  39. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    This thread is ridiculous.

    :facepalm:
     
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  40. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    ive actually noticed non-luna shops prices have gone up by about 25 percent since vendor search. they used to be great deals, now just slighly under the next highest priced item.
     
  41. Deep Ellum Dan

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    well when pricing, i see what everone is selling something for and I just know my prices down so my items sell
     
  42. Spock's Beard

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    Where's that one super rich guy who was going to buy up every single PoF in the game and jack the price up to a million? You know, that guy a bunch of people insisted totally existed while this was being discussed. Whatever happened to him?
     
  43. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    It is and it isn't. Because people take everything to Atl to sell that means trying to buy something on the shard you play on is darn near impossible. Probably part of why I "DON'T" sell things on Vendors. It makes more people think the game sucks and that they can't get what they need and QUIT. Because the shard they love and remember is "dead"... they don't want to fight for a house on Atl... So they quit. Does this help the game in any way?

    They come back... can't find things they need... find out everything is on Atl.... it's not like returning players are going to have shard shields where they can travel to and from Atl for free... so they get upset... It'd cost them 50 bucks round trip to go to atl and back... they just shelled out 50 bucks on the new expansion, the money to restart their account and any other money for new expansions and now they find that to get what they need they'll have to fork over another 50 bucks in round trip tokens to and from Atl... and you think that will make them want to play???

    And what's worse is sometimes all the stuff bought on other shards that would be nice for newer players doesn't really sell on Atl... it just sits on the vendors because it's over priced for all the Vets who live on Atl. Most of whom don't need it.
     
  44. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    And so those who come to our game while in Jr High will have to play UO until their about age 30 to have Shard Shields?
     
  45. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
    Reporter Professional Governor Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter Royal Knight

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    Right. Now usually I'll transfer things for friends... if they ask. Though I have shard shields to almost every shard I don't really do much with them. By years end I'll have a shield to every shard. Perhaps that'll be my end game goal.
     
  46. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    Oh bull... *laughs* It's wanting to be able to charge insanely high prices without any penalty from vendor fees. If you charge prices appropriate for new player items your vendor fees can be covered by mugging a few orcs every couple of months. I've played Crafter since starting UO back in 2000, vendor fees are not a problem.

    Let's have the Dev's remove vendor fees on anything costing 10,000 gold or less and keep the fees on anything priced higher, That will kill the problem of vendor fees for items being sold for newbies.
     
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  47. SunWolf

    SunWolf Seasoned Veteran
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    Depending on the system, it is easy to fix this. Set a min item value, like 5000. Anything under 5k that is sold on your vendor, it takes nothing to hold it. Anything over, charges you the same as always.
    This way the shards can run vendors and set thier own prices for eachother. Now there still is a flat vendor fee to pay an npc to sit there and that should remain. There is always a cost in doing business and risk.
     
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  48. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I think it ought to scale depending on what your charging... the less you charge the less you get charged just like a true tax. If you want to "avoid" the taxation then you need to subsidize by maybe doing charitable works. Perhaps we could figure out how this would be...
     
  49. Maximus Neximus

    Maximus Neximus Lore Keeper
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    I can't afford a vendor so I don't have one. The fee needs to be a one time thing, when sold.

    Until the fees change, I'll just keep selling stuff in gen chat or on the forums.
     
  50. King Greg

    King Greg Seasoned Veteran

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    One Time fee,