1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Vendor Disappeared?!?!?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Luke Carjacker, Sep 30, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hi,

    I was wondering if anyone had any idea what happened or more importantly what to do.

    Here's the situation. I rented a vendor spot on Atlantic to sell off some of my extra junk; it's been 2-3 months maybe and everything has been going normally. I had about 1.3 Billion gold on the vendor as of the last time I looked (1-2 days ago). Today, I logged in and my vendor was gone. Actually, the house was redesigned and all the vendors were gone (a few new ones had been put up but were empty). I'm an experienced vendor operator; I have had vendors for years and years both at my own houses and rentals. I've done everything I could think of. I clicked on the house sign and it gave no indication that I could collect the lost gold or stuff.

    So, am I missing something there? In addition to the gold there was over 100m worth of stuff on the vendor as well. Does anyone have any idea where it went or what I should do to locate it?

    Thanks
     
  2. Ender76

    Ender76 Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    37
    I went by the house, was told Mesanna took it bc it was a duper house.
     
  3. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2009
    Messages:
    2,729
    Likes Received:
    1,396
    I find, that a bit unlikely. but to the OP, click the house sign, to see if you are able to gain access to your vendor through that.
     
  4. Goodmann

    Goodmann Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,890
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    if vendor falls because its you or owner does not renew you have 7 days to claim your items or gold if not it becomes property of the house owner so best to check in on your items/vendor once a week
     
  5. Goodmann

    Goodmann Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,890
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    apparently it was OSI owned and it got dropped
     
  6. Well, I didn't actually say which house it was but strangely enough I ran into the new owner and she said the exact same thing. She heard it was a duper house and that Mesanna took it. Don't know if this is true or not or just a rumor someone started, but it makes some sense because there's no way a vendor could vanish that quickly. The house was full of vendors and now it has a new design - under normal circumstances a new owner (or anyone) would have to wait for vendor contracts to expire, usually up to a week, before redesigning the house. So, most likely something unusual had to happen for the house and all its vendors to go away. I've clicked on the house sign a bunch of times, logged in & out, and the new owner even volunteered to show me the moving crate, which had just 3 items in it. When a vendor goes away, the gold becomes checks in the moving crate, so 1.3 billion gold would be at least 1300 items in the crate.

    Still, it's simply unfair to just delete everything. I understand why they would take the house & account if it was a duper house (don't know what that means actually but whatever), but I had nothing to do with the owner of the house or what they used it for. I simply rented a vendor spot there to sell my stuff - arties and rares that I collected myself over the years. Is it my fault that duping still goes on in the game, what could I have done over the past 15 years? On the other hand, the the game makers producers of UO (don't even know what to call them now, Origin, EA, Mythic...?) haven't done what was necessary to stop duping, and now the just arbitrarily delete my vendor & stuff? That's BS.
     
  7. Yeah, as I mentioned in the original post I last looked at it 1-2 days ago, but yes it looks like Mesanna or OSI or whatever had something to do with the house going away.
     
  8. Salivern_Diago

    Salivern_Diago Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,112
    Likes Received:
    41
    Thats a scary thought... renting vendor and then the house along with your gold and contents going poof!! :( I hope it dosnt happen often otherwise I'ld be broke fairly soon too :(
     
  9. Mr. Smither1

    Mr. Smither1 Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Messages:
    345
    Likes Received:
    66
    I talked to a friend of mine who was walking by it when it went POOF, he looted some stuff and told me the vendors were floating in the air for a little while then they were gone also. I don't even trust the vendors at my own house and never store more than 200mil on any one vendor.
     
  10. LordDrago

    LordDrago Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,500
    Likes Received:
    393
    While I feel bad for the OP (and any other honest vendors who lose items and gold in this manner), I can't help but smile a bit when a duper gets whacked.

    Perhaps, a burning building with a sign, asking the honest vendors to contact Mesanna to claim their goods might be in order, although, this would, unfortunately, also offer a reprieve to dupers who use different accounts for vendors and house ownership.
     
  11. Ludes

    Ludes Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    2,382
    Likes Received:
    648
    Sorry bout the OP's loss..

    But I'm very glad to hear Mesanna's still hunting down cheaters and removing them.
     
  12. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582
    If all that has been reported here is true then there really has to be a better system in place.

    Lets pretend that any of the other posters here had done as the OP did. Rent a vendor at what seemed like a regular house on a REAL EA SERVER. You placed all of your stuff on it for sale and made 1.3 billion from it over time largely due to the notion that your spot is working so why mess with a good thing. Along comes a Dev team member who, for reasons unkown, decides that the owner of the house is doing something wrong and deletes the house and all the vendors regardless of ownership. Now we do not know what transpired to allow such an event to take place but if the OP is true in what they are saying a fair amount of hard work is down the drain with no forseeable positve exit. Guilty by simple association?

    If the OP was somehow guilty of something I would like to see a Dev team member come here and say as much or the conclusion is that any vendor rented at any location, even a house you own, is clearly at risk for deletion. Actions like this do not help to see the franchise that is UO.

    Reply please.
     
    Lord Frodo likes this.
  13. Salivern_Diago

    Salivern_Diago Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,112
    Likes Received:
    41
    Dev's aint gonna be posting about this Picus, EA ToS wont let them.
     
  14. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582
    Something has to be said. Lets just pretend some newb reads this thread, ain't gonna happen but the implications are horrible.
     
  15. I just want to make clear that whatever rule-breaking was going on at this vendor house or by the owner of that account, I (I'm the OP) had nothing to do with it. My entire interaction with the owner of that house consisted of about 2 minutes where I saw a vendor spot advertised over general chat, responded saying I was interested, and went ahead and rented a spot. I never said another word to that person before or after I rented the vendor spot.

    For those who are for some reason happy that this happened...imagine if you interacted with some random player in the game 3 months ago. Imagine that one day you log on and 1.3 billion worth of your possessions are simply gone (for those of you who don't have 1.3 billion worth of stuff just imagine that your house, your player gear and everything else you own was deleted). Imagine that you get zero explanation and after asking around the only thing you find out is that oh yeah, you remember that random person you talked to in front of Luna stables 3 months ago? They broke the rules so we deleted your stuff. That's like saying we need to stop crime in our city, so let's send our police force out and shoot some suspected criminals...and while they're at it let's go ahead and wound all the bystanders near them. That will teach them.

    Honestly, the reason I'm selling so much of my stuff is because I don't log in much an more and I've been thinking of winding down my accounts. I've enjoyed the game for twelve years and have been giving some stuff away to friends while keeping things prepared in case I decide to play more actively in the future. I don't think I'd ever close my main account, but might downsize and perhaps pass my secondary account off to a friend. So really, I'm actually not that hysterical right now because I don't really need the stuff or the gold that was lost because I don't play much (there was a time I'd be foaming at the mouth if something like this happened). But, whatever stuff I have it should be my choice how to distribute it among friends or store for potential future use. Having it deleted randomly is asinine and anyone planning to continue playing this game should be extremely mad that the developers handled it this way.
     
    Lord Frodo likes this.
  16. Piotr

    Piotr Stratic's Finest
    Professional Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Campaign Patron

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,370
    Likes Received:
    1,677
  17. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582
    Yup, I can only imagine the annoyance you must feel.

    I've rented out spots to people in the game many times before and never see the renter again. This is a huge error in the game and should be investigated if only to provide insight for the next time such an event occurs.

    Why do the posters here on stratics not see the major issues with things like this and at the very least post asking WTF happened to this guys stuff? People should be up in arms yet it seems that, I suspect, that because the OP managed to claw up a fair amount of gold others are filled with envy.
     
  18. Brash

    Brash Visitor

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    11
    I was another 'victim' of this happening to the same house on ATL, and I can vouch for the OP's story that it wasn't an IDOC. I was lucky in that I 'only' lost about 20 mil worth of money and goods. Tried to page a GM and gave up after an hour of twiddling my thumbs waiting.

    Whereas 20 mil isn't as important to me as it used to be, I'd still like the money back. I didn't know the owner either, similar story to the OP on how I started renting the vendor.

    Makes me nervous though - at one point I had over 200M worth of stuff on that vendor. How can I ensure it doesn't happen again?

    ...doesn't seem like I can.
     
    Lord Frodo likes this.
  19. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Premium Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    7,469
    Likes Received:
    361
    you can not! Its kind of like buyer be ware you need to make sure you know the people you rent from as well as possible. In the end though there is no sure way.
    With the hopefully new vendor search system you will be able to have your own and not worry about it!
     
  20. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582
    I don't want to ask if this is a troll but come on. This is not the correct answer to the issue raised, it is not as simple as buyer beware. EA/Mythic deleted two players items with out even going so far as to research the ownership. While I am all for doing stuff about dupers and gold sellers(not really but still) this action, if true, is totally incorrect.

    Are you to tell me that without any direct information from EA/Mythic we are to expect that at any moment any item you, I or anyone else has in the game can, might or will be deleted without any warning for any action done by yourself, another player or random events in the game?
     
  21. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Premium Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    7,469
    Likes Received:
    361
    What I am saying is unless you trust that person you are renting from with your stuff ...then maybe you should not rent from them..thats all! the person was a duper or was performing some illegal act most likely and when you rent from them you connect yourself to them and what they do! how do they know the op was not involved with them? (not saying he was)
     
    Bazer likes this.
  22. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
    Governor Stratics Veteran CasteoftheForgotten

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    2,599
    Likes Received:
    2,053
    I am with Picus and the OP on this one. I realize the need for and support our team weeding out dupers. I also understand the challenge sorting out accounts, so that the players real account gets banned, not just the trial account he used to dupe with... BUT they should make an honest effort not to victimize innocent players in the process. I am certain that our team can determine the account that each vendor is owned by and trace that back to a master account and email address... How much extra effort would it be to shoot out an automated email saying "your vendor was removed from game because the house owner was found to be in violation of EA TOS. If you wish to appeal this account please submit the attached appeal form."

    Then validated each accounts relationship as appeals come in. If there is no reasonable suspicion that the vendor owner did anything but rent a spot on a house, then return the vendor inventory.
     
  23. Gorbs

    Gorbs Sage
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    130
    I imagine the newbs will be wondering why there was 1.3 billion gold (legitimately I am assuming) on this person's vendor when they just had 1000 gold and were unable to use it for anything worthwhile other than training skills when they started.
     
  24. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582
    I have vendors at my Napa luna house that I know have well over 1 billion gold on them from people who have just sold stuff over the years and found nothing to buy with the profits. I have had vendors of my own who have milked well over this amount for no reason other than playing the game. Yes some person just starting out the game will take some time to reach the first million but the next 100 is easy if you just do a little research.

    I only find the lack of comment from the team to be the annoying part. Could I care about the OP losing his gold, not really though I feel for them, but I do care about the chance that some how this gets on google, a internet blog or something that someone might read and compare this event to something like the big theft that happened to Eve online.

    If the story reads true it is a bad event for us, the game, the team and anyone who is thinking about playing our game.
     
  25. Mesanna

    Mesanna UO Producer | Dark OverLady
    VIP Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    838
    Likes Received:
    948
    Hello Everyone,

    Yes I did drop a house on Atlantic several days after I was told the player was banned for illegal activites. When I got the notice I even waited an additional week. If you see the sign changed to Changed by EA or the house go into OSI hands its a good bet you might want to remove your vendor. I totally understand that you are innocent but how am I supposed to know this? How am I supposed to know that you are not just another alt of the person that had their account banned?

    We as a team are talking about how we can move all rental vendor items to a crate much like we do with the stalls in Mag. which gives you x number of days to pick up your belongings. In the mean time when the house is taken over I am asking that a sign is put out stating you must remove your vendors by x date until a better solution is in place.

    Bottom line here is..was it fair for you to loose your items since you just rented a spot ..no it was not. But can you please tell me how I am supposed figure out if you are or are not just an alt of the person that had their account banned?

    I will get a back up of Atlantic on an internal shard and I will look at this house..I will not make any promises, and just so you know yes I did get your email regarding this matter. My decision will be emailed to you and not open for public discussion.
     
    #25 Mesanna, Oct 2, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
    CovenantX, Flair, Bazer and 2 others like this.
  26. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    Thank you for taking the time to respond to this issue. I understand that you may not be able to please everyone - but it is appreciated that we know you are looking into it.
     
    CovenantX and Lord Frodo like this.
  27. Goodmann

    Goodmann Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,890
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Well done Mesanna
     
    Lord Frodo likes this.
  28. Merus

    Merus Babbling Loonie
    Governor Stratics Veteran CasteoftheForgotten

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    2,599
    Likes Received:
    2,053
    Glad to see a response to this.

    I still believe there are technical ways to at least get an idea of player relationships. Accounts have billing information... Names, emails, payment information, IP addresses, ISP, etc.

    While it does take more work than simply deleting a house and everything in it, I believe honest players deserve that effort before having items summarily deleted with no prospect of having them returned at the conclusion of an investigation.
     
    Ender76 likes this.
  29. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Premium Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    7,469
    Likes Received:
    361
    Thank you Mesanna, This is one of those touchy subjects and I can see both sides of this and it is great that you have responded and let the community know you are aware and doing what you can even if the end results may not be exactly what is expected its a great start!
    Storm
     
    Lord Frodo likes this.
  30. Doubleplay

    Doubleplay Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2007
    Messages:
    754
    Likes Received:
    150
    I was on a business trip to an unnamed country. There was a bank robbery in the bank across the street from my hotel. The police and army surrounded the bank with the perps inside. After a day or so, the robbers demanded a car, a plane at the airport and some food. Later that the day, the car was positioned at the bank, the plane at the airport. I watched from my balcony as the robbers and 4 hostages got into the car. They drove off with the army close behind. Just as they got outside the city limits, the car and all occupants disappeared within a hail of about a million machine gun bullets. I did not stay in country long enough to find out if the hostage families had any complaints.
     
  31. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582

    This is good. I hate to be so critical of the team but that is the role a player has to take.
     
    #31 Picus at the office, Oct 2, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
  32. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Premium Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2004
    Messages:
    7,469
    Likes Received:
    361
    This is another one of those reasons I support a vendor search option to decrease the amount of rentals needed in the game (I understand some will still want this) .
     
    Lord Frodo likes this.
  33. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    5,806
    Likes Received:
    2,309
    OK Something happened that only Messana and the people affected know for sure. I am glad that Mesanna responed to this thread in the manner that she did. Here is something I do not understand. I understand wanting a vendor in Luna and I have a vendor in Luna at a house owned by another player that I think I know is an honest person but as I do not know this person in RL I can not state this 100% for a fact. You can place a vendor at your house (I have 71 of them at my Fel castle) and you can put gold on them so easy. Just price a BOD in a Bod Book and place it on your vendor (hit ESC), then open up the BOD Book and buy the BOD. Money is now on your vendor at your house anywhere in UO. This is not the first time this has happened in UO as many are well aware of so why take the chance with keeping all that gold on a vendor at someones elses house other than your own. Yes I take gold off my Luna vendor every week and place it on one of my Fel Castle vendors. I also check my rentail contract every week to make sure everything is ok. I am sorry for your loss but it sounds like you have played UO for a while and you know things happen, there are ways to lessen the affect when thing like this do happen. I know your pain of losing things in UO as I have lost everything but my Chars back when there was Tram and Fel only (house/gold/all items gone), yes I was mad and to tell the truth it was my own stupidity that caused it and yes I am still here playing and I learned a huge leasson from that. Never trust anybody 100% in UO that you do not known in RL and you can walk over an choak them to death. JK about the choaking part.
     
    CovenantX likes this.
  34. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582
    And if this guy was transfering his stuff to ATL in order to sell what was he to do with the fact that we can only have one house per account? Don't slag the situation but lets try and find a answer to the problem.

    I think it's great, bad story, but great that Mesanna actually spoke about the issue. Today I acutally feel that the team might be taking notice of things that need to be delt with in a fashion that I think works.
     
  35. Goodmann

    Goodmann Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,890
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    I do remember about 6 years ago they did this to a house I had vendors at but I did not get reimbursed. internal server please from 2006 and let me get my things back!!
     
  36. Hi, I'm the OP. First of all, Mesanna, I appreciate your response to this question; I will wait patiently for your email. In past discussions I have strongly supported the elimination of cheaters in the game (don't remember discussing dupers specifically, but I know I know I've come out strongly against scripters, etc.). I hope we can help figure out a better way to punish only those that are guilty; as Merus suggested payment records, IP and billing records and the like could be good evidence...however I actually think there is some divide between the developers and the billing/account side now so maybe they don't have access to the info? Not sure.

    Of course, I understand that Mesanna and the devs have a lot of other things on their plates so it's understandable that they didn't have the time to research the account histories of all the people renting vendors (there were a lot) at the property. I certainly appreciate that she is willing to look into it now. Just as a note, my vendor was the one in the Purple Detective Cloak (vendor name: Purple Detective Cloak) and had some 1.3 Billion worth of gold as well as the stuff being sold. To those who wonder why the vendor was holding that much gold? Well, Atlantic is not my home shard and with item & bank box limits, there's really no other way to store that much gold, not to mention how difficult it is to move it around. This is also a response to the poster who suggested that you only rent vendors from people you know well...well that works if you regularly play on that shard I guess, but it's pretty unreasonable for people who just visit for 3 minutes every few days to stock their vendor.

    Going forward, I do look forward to the system they are talking about regarding how to handle gold in the future. I'm not sure I fully understand the details, but some system to allow players to handle & move their gold would be very welcome. Like Picus said, it's not that unusual for players to have hundreds of millions or billions in gold, and there's just no reasonable way to deal with that gold right now other than to store it on vendors (I guess you could turn the gold into high-priced arties and store those in your bank box, but not exactly easy to spend that way). Anyhow, handling gold & checks is part of the game we love - I'm assuming everyone who visits stratics comes because they love the game - and further improvements will help keep the game going into the future.

    Anyways, I definitely appreciate the response from Mesanna and that she is looking at the internal backup for Altantic to verify what I'm saying. I understand that the decision is not for public discussion so I will not make any comments here whatever the results are (unless I get an OK to do so). Whether I am able to recover the lost gold and items, I am quite satisfied that management is willing to at least look into issue. I certainly hope there's a way I can get my stuff back, but it's good to know that we're all working together for the best interests of the game (get rid of scammers & cheaters, build the community that we love).

    Thanks.
     
    Picus at the office and Storm like this.
  37. Celestial Knight

    Celestial Knight Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2011
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    1
    I know this is no help.everything i say seems pointless but what i did> friend who played ultima online lost his job after 18 year's was not able to pay his Mortgage ,yes i gave him the money an yes i told him no need to pay me back .we been friends longtime,friend calls me at home and says he is finished with ultima online and he did get another job but wouldnt be able to play ultima onlie anymore and he gave me his account with the help from uo i placed everything in my name etc.friends account had a luna vendor house on it Hmm i have my tram castle an a fel keep i did not wish to have 3 accounts open soo i gave the luna house to a member of my guild and ask only one thing and no it was not gold i gave the house too the player for a christmas gift <what i ask was this all members of the guild can have 1 or 2 free vendors to sell ther items,simple <NO its not simple no system is ever foolproof>when u deal with a person /player we never know if they are gonna lie,cheat,scam etc ,right now system in place works for us plus the owner of the house doesnt accept out of guild players to have a vendor.Some pple can be trusted its up to us who do i had my items too and trust that person isnt out too hurt us,>Question is ultima online real life only ask because allmost 14 year player what i have seen ingame takes place real life,crazy
     
  38. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    5,806
    Likes Received:
    2,309
    SLAG ? LOL Well he wasn't was he. We are talking about the OP so don't you SLAG the sitution. So as long as YOU think it works then I guess Mesanna needs your approval on this. CHILL
     
  39. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582
    ? You asked why this guy didn't transfer off the gold to a "safer" vendor and left the notion that the issue was his fault, he later stated he doesn't have a house to use as a bank on the same shard such as you do.

    It could be true that this person is a crook, I don't really care. I don't think it's fair that Messana says we should be watching the house signs to see if they have gone "Owned by OSI", that is just a poor out. I'm glad that she replied though. Today is the first time in ages that I feel the team has gone beyond the call, though the level of duty was missed in the first place. Why was it not that the house was made OSI and all vendor contracts placed on a week with no renew? Yes the vendors might be co-owned but such is the job that is left to the team, put on that detective hat.
     
  40. Goodmann

    Goodmann Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,890
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Even so they can always use a diff IP from another computer ect so again very many ways around this
     
  41. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
    Professional Stratics Veteran Alumni Dread Lord

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    17,379
    Likes Received:
    4,698
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.