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Vendor rates, Oh my!

Discussion in 'UHall' started by BahamaMama, Jul 7, 2011.

  1. BahamaMama

    BahamaMama Seasoned Veteran
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    I put up my first vendor in years. I dropped 60k on him. Then I placed an item for 20 Mil in the vendor backpack. His fee immediately went into the red.

    Daaammmn! How can folks afford to sell anything of serious value on vendors?

    Does the Merchant's Trinket help at all, really?
     
  2. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    60K cost equates to 0.3% per day to hold the items. Cleary that is a reasonable cost of doing buisness. Most of my vendors cost greater than 200K per day to run and some much higher but this is what you get for not having to spam the bank and to take advantage of certain "marketing" benifits that a vendor has.
     
  3. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    If you have a 20 mil item on your vendor you need to either

    A: Get it sold as quickly as possible

    or

    B: Have fast selling lower priced items that will continually feed your voracious vendor.
     
  4. BahamaMama

    BahamaMama Seasoned Veteran
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    If the vendor took the cut when the item sold, I'd be content. But, when an item can sit there day after day.. a week even... yikes.
     
  5. BahamaMama

    BahamaMama Seasoned Veteran
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    B = Good idea!

    thx!
     
  6. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    I've never been a fan of vendor fees the way they are implemented.

    It actually causes price inflation. People will put items on vendors for a higher price then they would take for the item to factor in fees.

    Lets say I'm selling a xfer token. If I put it on the vendor for 17mil - I'll likely pay 100k-1m in vendor fees as I wait to sell it. So, I'll price at 19 mil. It might take a bit longer - but then my fees are covered and I get my 17mil.

    People think that vendor fees cause people to price things fairly because you want to sell them fast - but I've seen the opposite. In general chat you can buy xfer token for 17 but vendors are priced at 19 and up.

    Vendor fees should be taken as a percentage when the item is sold. Period. No matter how long it sits on the vendor.

    This would cause more people to put items on vendors. I rarely stock my vendors heavy because I don't want to pay the ongoing fees.

    If I paid 5% on sale - I'd have HUNDREDS of crafted and imbued goods stocked and for sale. Instead, I only sell a few and prefer to personally make items or don't make them at all. Who wants to pay 15k in fees on a 60k item that someone may not buy for months. Not because of the price - but because they are looking for a specific piece of armor etc.

    To the thought that then people would use vendors for storage - well, so be it. Who cares? This would have been solved from day 1 if vendor storage factored into house storage.

    IE each vendor holds 125 items and you can have vendors up to the storage limit of the house. No more items on vendors if your house is full of items. Then it would not matter on vendors or not.

    The current vendor system discourages large stocks of goods and causes merchants to price items higher to pay for on-going fees. Then people come to complain about 'luna prices'.

    Well you pay 60k/day on a high value item and you pay 25k/month to rent the vendor - you gotta make your money back from your customers. Its all basic econ.

    I'm ok with paying fees - but not daily fees.
     
  7. Its fine. Just put your stuff on at a fair price and it sells. You dont even notice the fees.

    If it isnt moving your price is to high or you have stuff no one wants.


    Its all relative.

    I have made all my gold vending. All of it. Complaining about the fees the first time you see them is just an extemporaneous response.

    Don't worry about it. Load up your vendor and drop runes to it.
     
  8. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    Its not fine Raven.

    Go to any shard you don't play (besides GL/Atlantic/Pacific) and try to find a suit of armor or weapon.

    Vendors have become nothing but sellers of items that 'sell quick' like powerscrolls, pinks, tokens and artifacts. Go try to find any crafted goods. Impossible.

    I play on a dozen shards and they pretty much force me to create my own crafter in order to have a suit of armor.

    Now ask yourself - does that sound like fun for a new player?

    No wonder players don't join this game.
     
  9. Madrid

    Madrid Slightly Crazed
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    They need to do away with vendor fees.

    Vendor fees are something (stupid) that was created to appease those who favor 'gold sinks' which is absolutely pointless in my opinion.

    I've seen very nice shops put together...beautiful vendor shops shut down because of the cost of keeping vendor ups.

    It's bad for the game to see people close up their shops because the cost of fees is more than what they can sell.

    There are players who like nothing more than to tinker with their house and their vendors.

    I don't support the idea of 'gold sinks' but if there is to be a gold sink it should be somewhere else in the game where it doesn't dissuade peeople from running vendor shops and vendor fees do just that.

    I've seen it first hand a number of times this year; some of the best put together shops I've seen go under...it's stupid and it's a shame.

    And Shame on the Devs for incorporating something that makes people not to want to run a vendor it's not good for the game. People pay for the rental contract and they pay the landlord to rent the spot...that should be the end of it.
     
  10. Black Majick

    Black Majick Certifiable
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    I used to run shops like that. It was not he vendor fees that got me. it was the lack of people buying items (even when prices comparable to outside luna shops). I tried selling items that invite people to come to Sonoma. Stuff for a new player priced at a new player price. This was 2-3 years back. I sold GM weps, armor, pots, recalls, runebooks, repairs, furniture, etc. I may have sold 100k worth of stuff a month. I didn't care about the gold I was loosing keeping them up and running. I just didn't sell anything on them. My biggest seller was recalls and that was a guy who was buying them to resell down the road in Luna. So I closed up my 6 vendors and went back to focusing on peerless, champs, and PvP. Where I made my money and have a blast playing. So tell me a shard that needs a shop like that and I could possibly get a few vendors set up just as a side project. I enjoy running vendors.
     
  11. Metalstorm

    Metalstorm Seasoned Veteran
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    I like the idea of the vendors taking a cut AFTER the sale. I think y'all are on to something.

    Instead of vendor fees you get Vendor commissions. T'would be a much better system me thinks.

    Just for the record: I do not currently own any vendors nor have I since my Drach days which ended in late 2000, early 2001. The reason isn't fees , I just can't log in often enough to be a proper vendor owner. My interest in commission over fees is non biased. It just seems more logical than the current system.
     
  12. I always thought vendor fees were implemented to keep people from abusing vendors to get additional storage space. I think people still do it anyways, but it would be worse if there were no fees and everyone put up max vendors in their homes for the free storage. If there were no fees, I could put 1000 treasure maps on some vendors, mark them all at 100m each, and they would just sit there forever, freeing up 1000 house lockdowns. I'm pretty sure that would create unbearable unnecessary lag.
     
  13. BahamaMama

    BahamaMama Seasoned Veteran
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    After returning to the game last April, I was really excited about getting my New Mag house... because of being able to set up vendors and have them searchable. It was something I had always wanted to do in game... have a vendor house in a popular location and make my personal rune library available.

    But since I found out about the rates of vendors, I admit, I've lost my enthusiasm-- not because I thought it would make me rich, but because it offered a service that I thought I could afford to give.

    I'm not sure I can afford to fill the 4 vendors I set up last weekend and maintain them. I've already removed anything valued over 500k from them.

    I don't remember it being such a black hole years ago. I do agree that it's way out of wack and needs attention.
     
  14. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    For a 20 mill item, depending on what it is, try and sell it through ingame chat. Probably a lot easier overall really.
     
  15. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    You could just put them there not for sale and pay the small fee associated with owning the vendor to begin with. (what is it 60 gold a day?)
     
  16. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    Like I said - incorporate vendor storage/lockdowns into house lockdowns and this problem goes away. A lockdown is a lockdown whether it is in your house or on a vendor. Then no need to setup vendors for storage.

    I run 40 vendors to store bods on GL. I'd prefer they were in my house. Incorporate their lockdowns into my house total and I'll get rid of the vendors.
     
  17. Barok

    Barok Grand Inquisitor
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    If full bod books only took up 1 item count I would be ok with this, but if not then I wouldn't have room.
     
  18. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
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    Hawks one of them guys that can puke gold in a blink....so what, I'm not impressed. Sell the fast moving pixel crack, that's not what having a vendor is about.

    Let me say this about Luna vendors.....most of them either, 1) are empty, or 2) falsely advertise.

    I shop off signs, and if you have a vendor with a bs load, or shop has no name, you get bypassed quickly. And, lose a possible sale.

    Lastly, don't sell for millions like some stingy seventh grader.......later ladies.
     
  19. Thats a function of a game on the decline. Not the vending system. Do you think a vendor that can hold what you want at no cost is something good for the game or you?


    NO offense but that attitude is part of the games problem. Everyone wants immediately.

    Who said creating a suit should be easy and fast?
     
  20. BINGO.
    Lack of people.

    I see stuff for profit and my vendor next to that one has recalls and other stuff that playes buy slowly.

    If there are plays, good vendors, and work to advertise.... players come.
     

  21. HEY THERE IS AN OPTION....

    Geez you pay game gold for a game aspect to have a vendor sit there so you don't.

    List all you stuff in your profile and stand and the bank. Whats better?Paying gold for the game vendors to do it. Or waste 6 hours sitting at the computer.

    Same thing.... I want all my gold now and I want and I want....
     
  22. Well that is BECAUSE YOU ARE RIGHT.... to many short sited people here.


    NO FEE NO FEES. Okay let me put on my sword of wahwah for 500,000,000.

    What no one wants to buy it, Oh I guess Ill make a storage vendor.

    Open your eyes.

    What else do vendor fees do... it makes you make decisions on what you are charging.
     
  23. Well put some effort into combing quality of items with other stuff. Rely on that search vendor.... that will work.

    How about make a great place... drop runes. Get some other people to set up vendors. They will drop runes.

    Geez the fees don't matter. Pricing does.
     
  24. Madrid

    Madrid Slightly Crazed
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    We already have one poster here in this thread acknowledging that since they're return they've had a negative "setting up shop and running vendors" due to the vendor fees.

    I've seen many kickass shops up and disappear and it's downright depressing. Every time I see a shop disappear I start thinking to myself "this game is in trouble!"

    There are some players that like doing nothing in UO other than messing with their houses and running vendor shops if vendor fees are going to prevent that person from doing just that and losing interest and quitting UO because they can't afford the fees then that's not a good thing.

    I've seen people hanging out at vendor shops just gibber jabbering making friends..being social etc which is good for the game. Some players may hang around longer because they've made a friend in UO by visiting a player shop whose run by a social player with same interests.

    At this point in UO I look at things from the filter of what's good for game and can keep it going. What can keep players interested and let them have fun.

    Anything that does the opposite I'm against and vendor fees make the list.

    Making life difficult for those who like nothing more than tinkering with their houses and vendor shops isn't good for the game.

    If you want to take 10-20% of all my gold that deposited into my bank for a tax (gold sink) fine.

    However don't put something into effect 'vendor' fees that has the potential of causing shops to go under and may cause people to lose interest in UO and thus quit the game because the one thing they like to do in the game has become too cumbersome.
     
  25. Yeah...

    1 poster says I cant afford fees. The sky is falling that is proof.

    Here is a tip.

    Put out all your stuff you want to sell on vendors... Total the daily vendor charges.

    Lets say it is 800k a day.

    Go to Abyss. Farm some essence. In about 1 hour you can get some essence from slimes that sell for 700k on atlantic per 10.

    Put in on the vendor for 500k per 10. It sells in a second. Drop a rune. Due that 2x. Any you made your vendor fee.

    WHY? for an hours worth of work you get to sell your stuff for 23 hours on a vendor versus not selling your stuff or standing at LUNA for 23 hours spamming.

    Please stop this silliness about vendor fees. Play the game. Part of the game is fees.

    Or look at this way. I get an arty that averages 15 million. I sell it for 12 million. It takes 3 days to sell... I walk away with 11 million profit.

    AND THE PROBLEM IS what?

    Oh no I want to put on furniture... so put it on... and toss in some junk at a low price to pay for the vendor costs. Make some recall scrolls and sellthem for 35k per 1000. They sell in a second. ARGH. Play the game.
     
  26. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    If you sell things in UO you need to listen to this guy.
     
  27. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I disagree with vendor commissions and charging fees "in the end" like when the sale happens, at the end of the day and so forth.

    Reasons:

    - First, because I think that charging fees when the sale occurs would make the inflation problem even worse, IMHO. Without vendors' fees being charged as time passes, nothing would deter players to price items at extremely high prices and this would work raising inflation, not reducing it.

    - Second, because I think that charging vendors' fees at the end of the day "might" leave room to work arounds to avoid paying the vendors' fees, somehow....

    Personally, I think instead that vendors' fees should be charged at the "start" of the entire item vending process. That is, a moment an item is priced while in the backpack of a vendor right when the player presses the enter key, the according vendor's fee for that day is charged. Either from the vendor's pocket if there is enough gold, or if not, from the character owning the vendor bank account. Then, after this, the fee for that item would be charged at the start of any consequent UO or real day.

    This way, is my opinion, it simply would be not possible to avoid paying vendors' fees since whatever a player might do, all fees pertaining to that given item would have been already taken out from either the vendor's pocket or from the bank account of the character owning it.

    To my thinking vendors' fees should work towards 2 important goals for the game :

    A) - Work as a permanent gold sink;

    B) - Help reduce inflation in the game.

    In order to achieve these 2 important goals, it is definately necessary, IMHO, that vendors' fees are paid by players for the items the vendors sell and that no work around is possible to avoid paying these fees and also, that the fees are not too high to deter players from putting them on vendors up for sale but high enough to function as a good gold sink. That is, as I see it, there needs to be a balance between what the fees are and the interest of players to use vendors rather than selling the items themselves when playing the game.
     
  28. Metalstorm

    Metalstorm Seasoned Veteran
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    I think things sitting inside a vendor unsold collecting dust would deter people from setting extremely high prices.

    The buyers usually set the price by how much they're willing to spend. When they stop paying the extreme prices the prices tend to start falling.
     
  29. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I disagree, especially on items hard to find and highly wanted.

    If vendors' fees where no longer time based, but only charged at the selling, what would prevent, for example, to set a pair of tinker legs at 80 millions ?

    Chances are that "eventually" someone with a lot of gold much wanting them would pay that much and even if it takes time to sell them at that much, it would not be a problem since the fees would no longer be time based.

    And this, would work as a magnet for other players to price their tinker legs as close to 80 millions but a little less thus raising inflation on items which is, to my opinion, the exact contrary that vendors' fees should achieve (which I think should be work towards reduce inflation, not raise it.......).

    The price falls now, because vendors' fees are "time" based and the longer the time an item is unsold, the more gold is burnt in vendors' fees all for nothing.

    This is why after a few days an item stays unsold the price is reduced, to help have it sell and so cut the vendors' fees being wasted. This is what helps fight inflation in UO, as I see it.

    Of course, though, for this to happen it is vital that no work around is possible to avoid paying vendors' fees............
     
  30. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    One of the problems, I think, is that everyone is focused on the vending system. That's good to a point but it's bad for the game. An example is: Having high prices on a small amount of vendors vs. having alot of vendors with low prices.

    In this example, we have less people playing the game when there are high prices and more people playing the game when there are low prices. So, you have 2 economies, the people playing the game and the number of people playing the vendor system.

    Another problem is, the high end, being the rich, they have less need for the item. So, as the vendors become less and less, the items themselves will become less and less important to have. An extreme would be 2 people left in the game trying to sell tinker legs to each other at 80 million and already owning 4 sets each.

    I would suggest allowing people to create vendors that supply basic needs, which work into the skills, such as crafting skills. An example: Acid Rope or Bandages. These are not 80 million dollar items but they are very important to the characters.

    The problem is, if you set up a vendor, you will lose money. So, not only have you done alot of work supplying the vendor, now you can't even sell the item and on top of this you're losing money. Another example would be, repair deeds, potions, tools, looted weapons, maps, a very large list.

    Most of these things, you would not sell for more than 100,000, probably not even 50k. So, why not allow anything placed on a vendor to be 1%, if it is under 50k. If it's 100k, let it be 2% and anything over 150k could be 6%
    and anything over 1 million could be 8% and anything over 10 million, 10%.

    This would force high end items to be sold through chat and allow low items to be stocked. Why would somebody place bandages on a vendor to sell as storage, if they could simply keep them in a chest and if people are going to place very high valued items at low prices they're going to sell.

    If people can afford to put very high value items, like 80 million, then they can afford to pay just about any penalty, in my opinion.

    It's amazing how it seems to become a discussion of the rich and powerful, rather than focusing on how to create a vendor system that supports more vendors rather than a few rich vendors.

    Also, a system should be put into place that randomly buys items from vendors, so that every now and then, the system will buy an item from you, especially if it's a list of items that are low profit.
     
  31. Metalstorm

    Metalstorm Seasoned Veteran
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    I don't know Zyon Rockler, that just makes way too much sense to ever make it into the game. :D

    A scaling system like you describe would be ideal for the fee system. It would make the whole fee thing much more viable for everyone from the poor to the rich. I like it :)
    :thumbsup:
     
  32. Are you still talking about UO? Coz this sure sounds like (everything) in real life. Well if that's how humans do things in real life, that's how humans do things in-game as well.

    But back into the context of UO, yes a very well-thought out proposal, that hopefully the Devs will consider implementing.

    We could have different classes of vendors. The humble 'working class' vendors are only allowed to sell low-priced items for young players, and such vendors should be made to cost next to nothing (or nothing at all) to run. Only 'elite class' vendors are allowed to sell multi-million to multi-billion gold goods (we could have several different classes of the elite-class, each with different vendor fees).
     
  33. My Goodness.

    You put an item on a vendor. You set a price. You turn the game off and go cook dinner.


    The next day you check your vendors and see you sold stuff.

    You collect some gold of the vendor and go play.

    DANG... you all mess up free lunches too.


    GO out and live a little and let your vendors sell you game items for gold that isnt really gold but just some programming language.


    Is it me or do people here complain about everything.

    You hire a vendor you pay him. Oh role playing... you pay more for high priced stuff so your vendor doesnt close up and walk off.


    WHAT I WOULD LIKE IS NO VENDOR FEEs but the player gets to decide the commission and flat pay per vendor. The less you compensate your vendor the greater chance of him walking off with you stuff.


    GEEZ
     
  34. BahamaMama

    BahamaMama Seasoned Veteran
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    RavenWinterHawk,

    We get it that you disagree there is a problem with vendor fees and that you think we are just a bunch of lazy greedy whiners.

    So, you can move along now to another thread. :next:

    Thx!
     
  35. Madrid

    Madrid Slightly Crazed
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    This sounds like the most logical and best approach.:thumbsup::thumbsup:
    *Two Thumbs Up*

    :thumbsup::grouphug:

    My thoughts exactly. I don't mind people disagreeing but when they have to post like 5 times in a row then it gets a little :talktothehand: :wall:
     
  36. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    No one has really said how they would carry this out although we have several options, we could be missing some crutical information.

    It doesn't really control the economy as long as people can still do business directly but in theory scaling could completely balance the vending system.

    If you take it one step further for example:

    10% of 10,000,000 = 1,000,000

    50% of 50,000,000 = 25,000,000

    80% of 80,000,000 = 64,000,000

    95% of 95,000,000 = 90,250,000

    So, what happens is, the cost places a hard cap which would prevent people from placing an item at a higher value to regain in vendor fees.

    This would balance the economy and force prices to become lower because the less an item costs, the more you receive as profit.

    This could be a one time fee or it could be a daily fee or it could be based on a sliding scale. For example: depending on what the amount is = to the time, the vendor will hold the item without fee.

    So, imagine the vendor is your friend and you walk up to him and ask him if he'll stand on your steps and sell an item for you, then ask him to make a deal. Depending on the percentage that he gets, the longer he is willing to stand there without asking for money again.

    So, even at a lower cost, you could still scale a percentage but you would start at a reasonable time period, so as not to cripple the lower priced vendors. So, somewhere around 10% or 10,000,000 you could equal time to 10 days and at 95% of 95,000,000 it could equal 90 days.
     
  37. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    how about instead of taking the fee when the item sells. Charge the % when you put the item on the vendor? This way it will cut down on people using them as storage. It will also make people think twice about overpricing an item them, because they will have to pay the fee up front, yet run the risk of it not selling. I think that would drive prices down a little bit. I know I'd stock items cheaper in a system like that.
     
  38. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    What about when the owner takes an item off the vendor?

    Say I price at 500k on day 1. I pay my 5k in fee.

    On day 2 I want to make it cost 400k. I don't want to take off/put back on at 400k and pay the fee again.

    Thats the problem with that system. Plus if you make a mistake and price it at 10mil instead of 1mil - you get hit will the fee right away instead of take off, put back on and fix.
     
  39. popps

    popps Always Present
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    If the fee charge is at start of the day, or when one prices the item anyways, then the advisable solution would be right before day 1 ends take off the item and change pricing and the new corresponding fee (reduced because of a reduced price...) would apply for day 2.

    Problem solved.

    This problem could be easily solved by introducing, say, a 5 minutes delay between pricing an item and having the corresponding fee be charged. This 5 minutes delay should be plenty to give time to the owner to take the item with the wrong pricing off the vendor and put it back with the corrected pricing. After 5 minutes the fee would be applied.

    Problem solved.